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KeybladeWielder

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#1  Edited By KeybladeWielder

1.) It really wouldn't I mean don't get me wrong it is nice but, it wouldn't be able to tag Sora.

So? He has other means of tagging Sora. Such as stopping time, AoE attacks, let's not forget cloning... But he can use these while intangible. Which is why it's absurdly advantageous.

His other means of tagging Sora aren't that good either. Sora is protected by Stop Screen, Dodge Roll or Reflect, I mean it really doesn't matter if you bring three more rabbits to a rabbit vs tiger fight. Sora can still just evade all of their attacks. Not really.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

2.) That is probably the reason. Considering it is just a slightly longer wand. There is also the point that Link only has two hands to hold his equipment with his right arm usually used to hold his shield. Leading to again Link would try his best to not use this one.

No he doesn't. And After re-examining, Link doesn't even need to hold the wand, he just has to swing it one time.

In fact here's him swinging his sword with it.

When you said other items, I thought you meant like the boomerang and bombs and stuff(again things restricted due to gameplay). Link doesn't need to hold the wand or concentrate on it's power to use other weapons in general. Don't know where you got that

My bad. I must be thinking of a different item as I could of sworn the cane created a bubble around you not just a glowing ring. Though this easily leads into Sora being able to attack Link from the sky or ground (though I think Link might be immune to ground attacks.)

Nope. Though honestly it becomes less impressive as it still gives Sora room to attack. Yeah I must be thinking of an entirely different item.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

I mean you shouldn't as one is just armor while the other is a weapon.

It's not really a weapon, just an item.

I'm probably wrong but, I believe boomerangs were created with the single purpose of being weapons.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

3.) I really wouldn't say that. Sure he's the weakest Ganon but, that's the point Ganon and Ganondorf are totally different from each other.

No they're not. Ganon is literally what Ganondorf turns into at the end of Ocarina of Time. However TP Ganondorf turns into Ganon at will. They're the same character unless we're going into specifics with timelines and what not.

Let me rephrase that. Ganon and Ganondorf are totally different from each other in power as Ganon is created when Ganondorf uses all the power of the Triforce of Power. Still the same but, totally different in power. Even with that Ocarina of Time had the stronger Ganon as the one in Twilight Princess seems to have been impacted by the Power of Twilight. Does it ever change? I mean I think he fuses with another bad guy that's really it though.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Though honestly I'd say that Ganondorf from Twilight Princess is honestly the weakest as he gets imprisoned, sent to an alternate dimension

99% of Ganon's get imprisoned. Including Wind Waker Ganon. Except Twilight Princess Ganon got imprisoned in another dimension, and while unquantifiable, that's more impressive than getting imprisoned under the ocean.

They do but, this Ganon got put in regular chains. It really isn't as he could have easily gotten out of the way but, he didn't. At least you have an impressive feat with getting out of the ocean and, I'm pretty sure they just tried to flooding the land in which he survived by finding shelter.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

stabbed which later on is used by Link to defeat him

He was stabbed as a normal human being without any artifacts by spirit Sages, and as soon as the triforce of Power manifested itself, He countered even though he was stabbed through the chest.

The wound didn't heal though and he didn't really get any durability feats that impressive from that point on. He barely was able to kill one of the sages in fact I'm pretty sure the Water Sage is the weakest of the sages. Only to then be sent/imprisoned in the Twilight Realm.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

While the size of the world of the said dimension is unknown the areas themselves we visit are quite small.

Well considering he wiped out Hyrule twice, or 3 times... and the Dark world is called darkworld... I don't think it's wrong to assume the dimensions are counters to Hyrule. Which is continental in size. The area's visited size shouldn't be relevant. Considering size is limited by gameplay.

Usually with help. World doesn't really mean anything. They are they just aren't the same size. Not saying they're not continents just not as big as Hyrule. It is but, that's all we see them visually impact. Which is most likely what they have control over.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

No he usually uses back up like Zant.

Zant wasn't backup. Zant housed a fraction of Ganondorf's power. Everything Zant did should be relegated as a feat for Ganondorf.

He was. Ganondorf used him to try an take out both Link and Midna. To my knowledge on top of his own power. I really can't remember Zant doing anything too impressive.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

You did though it was with magic

When he fought Midna I assumed it was with physical force. We don't know if it was with magic or not.

While we don't know for 100% the fact he goes into the weird glowing head thing clearly shows he wasn't using pure physical might.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

and we have no idea what he did to the island. Even with that it wasn't destroyed so much as trashed. I really wouldn't say he's continental in anything other than magic, unless I'm missing something.

It Had been shattered. But yeah you're rght

I doesn't look shattered just trashed.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Him manipulating the puppet could just be magic. Most monsters that serve Ganondorf are usually just beings that follow the strongest or they're afraid of Ganondorf's mystical powers not really his physical might. For the most part those monsters can't hit as hard as Sora.

Most part is irrelevant. Fact is there's a couple that can, and they can't break through his invulnerability state

It is relevant. There really aren't but, there could be if some were amped. Though currently there isn't any monster as powerful as Sora or, really anyone as powerful as Sora.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

4.) Okay.

You still didn't show me Sora using Stop without vocalizing...

Still hunting for it.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Not really. Which is why I don't want to use outside help as it becomes to unfair for Link as Sora has too many useful companions. I would like to not use outside help.

Alright no summons

Sweet.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

The time orbs wouldn't be a problem thanks to stop screen. I mean in range and duration yes but, in overall feats the Dream Eaters is better. Really wouldn't say universal. To my knowledge the sun is still yellow when it goes off.

What overall feats? What has it done that Link's time stop hasn't done and completely overshadows? And no. The sun appears yellow due to Light. When you stop time, light stops moving ergo, the sun is no longer yellow.

Being able to freeze Xemnas and Young Xehanort both time travelers, even freezing Luxord a time manipulator. It even freezes Ursula with the Trident of Trident and Maleficent. To my knowledge it's still yellow when you do.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

The same applies to Link. Sora's ability to self revive really wouldn't be a factor. It does. That's why the green spirit flames appear around Link when one of the abilities activates. Mipha's Grace wouldn't be able to go off because Link is dead/unconscious.

You're basing the claim that it's outside help even though in the story Mipha essentially says, this is the last time I'll see you Link, make you sure you get it done and to help you out I'll give you my powers, and then the power literally enters inside of Link. That green flame thing is nothing but assumption and headcanon on your part. It's purely an artwork decision. The Lore completely counters what you're saying. As for it working even though he's dead or unconscious... it's magic... it doesn't need any more explanation than that.

No she doesn't what she essentially says it that she's happy to see Link and she'll help him anyway she can. Exactly it is her power, not Link's showing she is the one who must activate them for him. How? We know the dead champions give of green spirit flames. Artist do things for specific reasons. The green flames are there to show us Link isn't the one activating any of these abilities. It doesn't it actually agrees with my point. You have to give a reason for you're magic, you can't just be like I'm gonna make an immortality potion, proceed to not make it and somehow say you're immortal now. Link can't activate if he dies or goes unconscious, an outside influence like Mipha who controls the power can. Now I'm going to address something cause I know it will get brought up. You may ask well why don't the green flames appear in the cutscene, simple she's already there she doesn't have to go to him.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

I really don't understand what Ventus has to do with this. Sure he gave Sora the ability to wield a Keyblade but that doesn't do anything now.

That's how I feel about Mipha's Grace.

You shouldn't as they're two completely different points.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Ezlo was a Minish which got turned into a hat. That's outside help.

Yeah but I'm not saying use Minish Ezlo, I'm saying to use Ezlo as a Hat... however disregarding him, as he doesn't add much except shrinking anyways.

No you misunderstand. Even if he was in his Hat Form he'd still be outside help. As he's not stuck inside something that's just his body, we even see he can still act on his own and, is sentient.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

She wouldn't. She's both

No she doesn't have a free will. She was created with a sole purpose:

Having free will and being stuck inside something are totally different. Just cause she was created with a purpose doesn't mean she isn't outside help.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

not stuck in the sword until she goes into a deep slumber once the Master Sword is complete. She's outside help.

Again wrong, she's always stuck in the sword. That's just a visual spirit appearing to speak to Link. It's not like Fi can fight , touch, or interfere with battles. She aids Link by informing him. She thought she was going to go to sleep forever until Demise brought a curse upon their lineage.

If she was stuck in the sword she would have never come out. She wouldn't need a visual spirit if she was stuck inside the sword. Sure she can't fight but, she can interfere with battle by telling Link weaknesses of an enemy. She even downright talks a robot into helping Link. She still is sleeping though.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

He really doesn't.

Um, he had an ocean piled ontop of him... and got from underneath it.

To my knowledge he didn't. The Goddesses just tried to flood Hyrule to get rid of him.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

It has? I can't remember anyone being that big.

The first boss of Wind Waker was not only the size of a building it lifted small building sized mountain peak off of it's back and placed it back on the mountiain(from inside) multiple times

I definitely wouldn't say the peak itself was small building size but, she was. Though to my knowledge she doesn't do anything.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

When has Link ever been building level? The only one that comes to mind is Legend of Zelda 2 but, that was with a very specific item. Link is really not building level.

Bust a barrier that's bigger than the castle and reaches from ocean floor to sea level

To my knowledge that's less Link and more of the Master Sword as, I'm pretty sure that's one of its abilities. As in Link to the Past you need it to break a magical barrier that's guarding Hyrule Castle.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

I'm not saying that characters like Simba aren't magical it's just not all of them are magical like Tron. You just need to be strong.

Tron is a computer program... He doesn't need to fight with magic, his world is literally so technically advanced that the tech could be consider magic, and there's no proof he doesn't use it. What is the evidence Tron doesn't have magic?

Which isn't magic. He does. You just said they need magic, he doesn't have it. The fact he never uses it.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Simple he didn't pull it out of anywhere he just found it. The same way the enemies are being pulled in to he's just going with the flow not against it.

Where did he find it in an instant during his combat with others? Up his ass? Why does this chest have a magical light? Where did he find this chest that consistently has magical light in it. Face it, that's called magic.

In the magic cave they're in. Magic. He didn't it teleported to him once he found it. The chest is magic but, Jack isn't causing the magic.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Not really. Not really magic. no you need to be strong in order to hurt a Heartless or Nobody. Roxas couldn't hurt the Nobody because he had a struggle bat which is not designed to cause serious harm and, Sora has a toy wooden sword which was also designed to not cause that much harm.

You're saying Sora wasn't strong by the end of Kingdom hearts? Whether it causes much damage or not is partially irrelevant, as it does no damage no matter how strong the character is.

When Sora lost ownership of the Keyblade to Riku yes. It shouldn't as it is a toy sword.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

Mostly due to Sora having more and has more secure ways of healing.

But he doesn't have more... your point is moot. Link can stop time or be invulnerable to heal, I don't know why he would... because he'll be invulnerable... but if anything while invulnerable he can rub on some Secret Medicine, a potion that revives him as he dies..

He does. He has Potions, Mega-Potions, Hi-Potions, Drive Forms, tons of magic, etc. Sora won't be impacted by his time stopping abilities.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

2.) It does show that Sora knows how to defend himself. Even using abilities he shouldn't like Saix's Berserker Rage. While Sora's Guard Form shows how he can easily use defensive gear like a shield. Showing that Sora has the means to use the cane or cape. Which falls in point with the original point.

These two things do not mean Sora will just grab his cape or cane and know how to use them. Sora still shows more adaptivity with offensive means. Using a shield and sword is cool, But Sora offensively has grabbed a monster from the sky and used it as a laser without knowing anything about how it's laser works. Using a shield and sword does not compare defensively, and definitely doesn't prove he'll have the means to use the Cape or cane.

It doesn't mean he'll try to grab it but, it does show he could use it. He also shows adaptivity with defensive items, it truly matches the saying a good defense is a good offense. If they were just a regular sword or shield sure they wouldn't be that impressive but, it's a magical shield and sword. All he did was allow it to charge it's laser then manually guide it. It does. If he can use the Gigas he can use the wand or cape.

@cor_tsar said:

@keybladewielder:

They do. Just not in range.

Soooo.... what makes their feat equitable or superior

Dodge Roll my friend, Dodge Roll. For ether he could just glide around. For bombos he could just roll.

Ether is omnidirectional. Including through the sky. In fact it's stated to affect airborne enemies more. Bombos is a bunch of random explosions, so I guess he could roll, but, Ether is still getting him, So i still see omnidirectional attacks tagging him since he can follow up ether with either bombos or Quake.

Everything I've posted.

I'm pretty sure Ether only freezes everything in a short range, something Sora has already dealt with. Doesn't it say it only controls the upper atmosphere I don't remember it ever saying it was more affective. He could still just roll for Ether. Not really.

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@cor_tsar said:
@keybladewielder said:

1.) Huh. Didn't know that.

2.) I really don't think it is. It most likely has to do with concentration, so Link trying to put on gear/do something else would cause the magic to weaken.

3.) Was he weak? I thought that was when he was at his strongest. The dimensions themselves are usually not that big, they're usually just a smaller Hyrule. I'm also pretty sure he needed outside assistance with that. Not really he's definitely continental. Ganondorf is only building level in magic, not when it comes to physical stats. Ganondorf still isn't that impressive in the physical department. The first puppet sure, the spider and dragon were definitely not.

4.) Which one. If you're referring to Sora not saying stop I don't have that on me right now but I'm definitely gonna post it later, though if it's evidence showing stopza is above stop I'll just point out it has a much better range and lasts way longer.

1.) Yep would be pretty useful over the course of 3 days as well...

2.) I mean... we don't know one way or the other if it has to do with the character. But the definite reason, no matter what, is purely gameplay. He can only hold one item at a time in LTTP, meaning he could only use one item at a time. this included, bombs, arrows, and even the boomerang

Am I supposed to think he can't use the Boomerang in coherence with Magic Armor now... even though he's done it anyways... We have no idea if it requires extra concentration or if it would weaken the magic. It's not an unreasonable thought, but there's no evidence to support your theory because gameplay made theorizing on the subject impossible.

3.) Nope, except for the incomplete reincarnated Ganon in OoS/OoA WW Ganon was the weakest. He has some of the most experience, but he doesn't have the Tri-force, he doesn't have Twilight power, he doesn't have any artifacts at all. By all accounts, Wind Waker Ganondorf is him at his base. And that was when he caused the ocean wide night, without any aid, lol. The size of said dimensions is unknown. You'd imagine planetary. But yes not including stars and other orbiting objects, the size is shown Hyrule in size, not smaller hyrule however. And Hyrule is continential in size. So if you want to argue his magic is continental that's fine, but that's a far cry from building level magical capabilities. And nope, he's always done everything on his own. Or at The very least, when he's obtained artifacts , Link's defeated him at the point of him using artifacts.

I already showed you him destroying buildings. Physically all around, and not just strength wise. Ganondorf is like... continental level in durability. If you're saying he's not physically building level when he manipulated a building size puppet, and multiple Building + sized monster are his minions... then Idk. But the fact Building sized monsters can't penetrate magic Armor and other invulnerability states, means Sora still isn't enough to do so.

4.)Of course I want to see Sora using Stop without vocalizing. Of course Stopza is above stopga and whatnot, that's just standard rpg mechanics.

1.) It really wouldn't I mean don't get me wrong it is nice but, it wouldn't be able to tag Sora.

2.) That is probably the reason. Considering it is just a slightly longer wand. There is also the point that Link only has two hands to hold his equipment with his right arm usually used to hold his shield. Leading to again Link would try his best to not use this one.

I mean you shouldn't as one is just armor while the other is a weapon.

3.) I really wouldn't say that. Sure he's the weakest Ganon but, that's the point Ganon and Ganondorf are totally different from each other. Though honestly I'd say that Ganondorf from Twilight Princess is honestly the weakest as he gets imprisoned, stabbed which later on is used by Link to defeat him, sent to an alternate dimension, has to use a vessel to make his way back to Hyrule, etc. While the size of the world of the said dimension is unknown the areas themselves we visit are quite small. No he usually uses back up like Zant.

You did though it was with magic and we have no idea what he did to the island. Even with that it wasn't destroyed so much as trashed. I really wouldn't say he's continental in anything other than magic, unless I'm missing something. Him manipulating the puppet could just be magic. Most monsters that serve Ganondorf are usually just beings that follow the strongest or they're afraid of Ganondorf's mystical powers not really his physical might. For the most part those monsters can't hit as hard as Sora.

4.) Okay.

@cor_tsar said:

Nope. She's outside help. If it is conscious and isn't stuck inside something it's outside help so characters like Navi, Tatl, Ciela, Fi, The King of Red Lions, Ezlo, etc. Would be outside help. Unless something has changed.

Listen... they're summons in equivalency. Tinker Bell, Genie, Mushu, etc are all things summoned from somewhere else. All fully conscious. Now if you want to consider the debate without summons... well one, Link would still get 9 time orbs,as that's how many he carried max. 2. It'd be a way easier fight for Link as Sora wouldn't be able to revive himself, taking away one of things helping to keep him the fight for a decent while.

I mean Ezlo... that's his hat. And Fi is applicable to the fight regardless. She's not conscious/free will nor is she not stuck inside something. She's stuck in the sword. You could take away summons and companions, and Link would still have Fi.

Not really. Which is why I don't want to use outside help as it becomes to unfair for Link as Sora has too many useful companions. I would like to not use outside help. The time orbs wouldn't be a problem thanks to stop screen. The same applies to Link. Sora's ability to self revive really wouldn't be a factor.

Ezlo was a Minish which got turned into a hat. That's outside help. She wouldn't. She's both and not stuck in the sword until she goes into a deep slumber once the Master Sword is complete. She's outside help.

@cor_tsar said:

Do either of them have any feats against time manipulation? I'm not sure if you're saying if they don't have range with time magic or use it against powerful opponents.

Nope. I'm just saying. Adds to the point. The point was his time stop is superior to Dream Eater's stop abilities. As Ciela's time orbs stopped things on a planetary... potentially universal scale. As the sun stops shining and things go gray scale, unlike Dream stop ability which has limited range(to the point where light is still shining brightly everywhere regardless). Same with song of rewind time, which just slows things down on both a larger scale and for an insanely longer time.

I mean in range and duration yes but, in overall feats the Dream Eaters is better. Really wouldn't say universal. To my knowledge the sun is still yellow when it goes off.

@cor_tsar said:

I really wouldn't say Ganondorf is a physical equal to Sora.

Again. First. Ganondorf easily has building level++++++ durability. And he's destroyed buildings...(Again his magic is way superior to building level) Secondly it's been effective against Guys much larger than buildings. GThat's really all it needs to stand up to, to say it can survive Building busting blows. By scaling Ganondorf, is Building level as Link is building level in striking power to some incarnations and Ganondorf is either Link's equal or superior in the physical department. The one with building level striking stats, Ganondorf has shown stronger to.

He really doesn't. With Magic. It has? I can't remember anyone being that big. When has Link ever been building level? The only one that comes to mind is Legend of Zelda 2 but, that was with a very specific item. Link is really not building level.

@cor_tsar said:

He wasn't raising the ground with his roar though, he was raising the ground by stomping on it. To be fair I never said they didn't have magical items they themselves just aren't magical.

In KH 2 it's not even that he raises the ground, it's just a straight up energy attack that Sora isn't capable of on his own

These characters are magic man. Where did Jack pull that chest from? How is he floating around it's light? So many questions? All easily explained by magic. Because that's what they're using to hurt heartless. Heartless/nobodies can not be harmed unless the person harming them has magic. This was what was evidenced at the beginning of both KH 1 and KH 2 when neither Roxas, nor Sora could hurt them unless they had a keyblade. And when Sora's keyblade was taken from him the only way he hurt Heartless was with Magic, he could not harm them with his wooden sword.

I'm not saying that characters like Simba aren't magical it's just not all of them are magical like Tron. You just need to be strong.

Simple he didn't pull it out of anywhere he just found it. The same way the enemies are being pulled in to he's just going with the flow not against it. Not really. Not really magic. no you need to be strong in order to hurt a Heartless or Nobody. Roxas couldn't hurt the Nobody because he had a struggle bat which is not designed to cause serious harm and, Sora has a toy wooden sword which was also designed to not cause that much harm.

@cor_tsar said:

By external I meant it as outside help, my bad.

He was given a magic ability. It has nothing to do with Mipha actually being there to help. What? This is like saying Sora got his keyblade because of Ventus... I don't even understand the line of reasoning here

It does. That's why the green spirit flames appear around Link when one of the abilities activates. Mipha's Grace wouldn't be able to go off because Link is dead/unconscious. I really don't understand what Ventus has to do with this. Sure he gave Sora the ability to wield a Keyblade but that doesn't do anything now.

@cor_tsar said:

Sorry again I was just pointing out Sora has tons of ways to heal himself. Though I'd actually argue Sora has the better options of healing.

Why exactly? I just listed off Link's superior healing items, and the ones that are arguably equitable to the ones you mentioned. You have any actual reason to why it should be/is superior?

Mostly due to Sora having more and has more secure ways of healing.

@cor_tsar said:

1.) Sure he may not use it but he would definitely try to disarm Link. 2.) Not really some are just purely reactive like blocking the pirates attack. Kingdom Hearts 3 shows Sora using a shield very efficiently. That doesn't make him an offensive type he uses a lot of defense.

1.) This is really the only thing that matters. If Sora isn't using his items then who cares, of course he could attempt disarming him. That could work both ways, Link could also attempt disarming Sora.

2.) That's just a standard block. It's not a unique ability or any reason to think he could use the Cane of Byrna or Magic Cape... which is the point you were supposed to be trying to get at... Or at least it was the original line of discussion at this point, I don't know what point you're trying to get at now.

1.) It does matter as Sora could use it. He honestly really wouldn't but, Sora could simply just disarm him. Link could disarm Sora but, it has less of an impact on Sora while if Link has his items taken from him he'll have to go get it.

2.) It does show that Sora knows how to defend himself. Even using abilities he shouldn't like Saix's Berserker Rage. While Sora's Guard Form shows how he can easily use defensive gear like a shield. Showing that Sora has the means to use the cane or cape. Which falls in point with the original point.

@cor_tsar said:
@keybladewielder said:

They have. I really don't think Link could tag him even with AoE attacks.

But they haven't. Dream eaters do not have time stopping abilities on par with Link.

Some of Link's AoE attacks are omnidirectional... there's no dodging them... Sora could dodge/block Urbosa's fury, since it's just lightning. I can't see him dodging ether or bombos. Though I could imagine him dodging quake... So trust me, hell get tagged by the omnidirectional attacks...

They do. Just not in range.

Dodge Roll my friend, Dodge Roll. For ether he could just glide around. For bombos he could just roll.

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@cor_tsar said:
@keybladewielder said:

1.) That's not the point though, sure he can go intangible but in order to do damage he'll have to come out.

2.) You mean the Cane of Byrna? Link would definitely try his best not to use it considering he can't use any other equipment when it's being used.

3.) Ganondorf has only shown that kind of power with his magic nothing else. At least from a pure physical perspective. Not really, at best he's really small island level. Not really Sora is way better physical feats unlike Ganondorf.

4.) He was probably talking about Sora's stop spell from DDD. In which Sora doesn't say stop, he just follows it up with his normal battle cry. Although I think in the Japanese version he does say stop. As for Mickey he used a way advanced version of stop in stopza which is leagues above the regular stop, stopra, and stopga. So there's just the good chance that since it is a very powerful spell Mickey needed to call it by name.

1.) Yes he can... he can still attack while intangible...

2.) This is... honestly a gameplay mechanic... Link was only allowed to carry one piece of gear at the time. However, even if this is the case, it's still offensive.

3.) He caused an Ocean wide endless night in WW at his weakest. And his magic's completely rules over dimensions before. His magic is planetary. Sora is only building level physical. Ganondorf is building level... They're both building level. Ganondorf can't get through MA I don't see Sora doing it. I mean damn, Ganondorf puppeted monsters that were small building size.

4.) Can you show me?

1.) Huh. Didn't know that.

2.) I really don't think it is. It most likely has to do with concentration, so Link trying to put on gear/do something else would cause the magic to weaken.

3.) Was he weak? I thought that was when he was at his strongest. The dimensions themselves are usually not that big, they're usually just a smaller Hyrule. I'm also pretty sure he needed outside assistance with that. Not really he's definitely continental. Ganondorf is only building level in magic, not when it comes to physical stats. Ganondorf still isn't that impressive in the physical department. The first puppet sure, the spider and dragon were definitely not.

4.) Which one. If you're referring to Sora not saying stop I don't have that on me right now but I'm definitely gonna post it later, though if it's evidence showing stopza is above stop I'll just point out it has a much better range and lasts way longer.

@cor_tsar said:

The same could be said for Link. Even with that most of Link's abilities that allow him to stop time are very specific. The Ocarina can only reverse time, with a very specific song. The Master Sword can reverse/fast-forward time but it needs to be at a certain location. I believe Ciela can create time orbs for Link, but that's outside help. The Sheikah Slate can freeze an opponent but Link must first lock onto the opponent. Even with all this Sora as of DDD is now immune to time manipulation thanks to slow and stop screen.

Ciela is a tool as Tinkerbell or any of Sora's summons are tools. As long as I'm not using her outside of her intended purposes like Genie making a wish for Sora or something. Link could use Ocarina abilities while invulnerable or barricaded. Since we're going the route of Link's invulnerability having to face up to someone of Sora's physical capabilities(which it has), I'd argue Sora would have had to use Stop Screen or slow screen against enemies of time manipulative prowess as Link. While I'd say Sheikah Slate Stasis would become null for sure. I don't think either Ciela's time orbs(Large scale, affected both a demon king and spirit of time herself) or Song of half time(Halves time indefinitely, I don't think any character/enemy has time abilities like that Kingdom Hearts) would become null, but I can't even recall which enemies used stop and slow in DDD. So examples of their time manip abilities would be appreciated.

Nope. She's outside help. If it is conscious and isn't stuck inside something it's outside help so characters like Navi, Tatl, Ciela, Fi, The King of Red Lions, Ezlo, etc. Would be outside help. Unless something has changed. He could but Sora could simply hit him knocking him away possibly disarming him. I really wouldn't say Ganondorf is a physical equal to Sora. Do either of them have any feats against time manipulation? I'm not sure if you're saying if they don't have range with time magic or use it against powerful opponents. If I'm remembering correctly Dream Eaters like Flowbermeow and Tama Sheep use it. Though I'll have to double check.

@cor_tsar said:

It's really not. For a lot of Link's healing abilities it's usually outside help like Mipha's Grace or Fairies. While others would just take to long like eating. It's not really internal, it's external when it activates.

What? Ki, Magic, Chakra, all have external properties, but the power itself comes within, not by use of an outside tool. Having limitations to the ability doesn't mean it's not an internal ability

By external I meant it as outside help, my bad.

@cor_tsar said:

It causes the ability to recharge for like twenty minutes. Sora on the other hand has Potions, Ethers, Elixirs, his various Drive Forms, etc.

I'd really only consider drive forms internal healing besides, ya know, cure and curaga and whatnot. Link has literally all those things as well. They kinda cancel each other out. And besides Link has the superior versions(Chateau Romani, fairies, Guardian Potions) As well as the standard (Purple, blue, green, and red potions)

Sorry again I was just pointing out Sora has tons of ways to heal himself. Though I'd actually argue Sora has the better options of healing.

@cor_tsar said:

What? Tron is not magic, the Beast while cursed has no magic abilities of his own. Jack Sparrow isn't magical. That's less Simba is magic, and more he's just way more powerful than his regular Disney self. That doesn't mean that Sora is using magic though. He could it just didn't do anything.

Dog they have magic. Raising the ground with a roar isn't a thing you do with just your stats. It's not a natural ability either, unless it's a magical natural ability. Even someone as grounded as Jack Sparrow, can make a treasure chest "magically" appear from thin air, have that chest contain Magnetic light, and then float around said light

If this isn't magic, nothing is. Heartless can only be dealt with if the character has the magic to do so.

He wasn't raising the ground with his roar though, he was raising the ground by stomping on it. To be fair I never said they didn't have magical items they themselves just aren't magical.

@cor_tsar said:

Saix's claymore, sure he eventually uses it against Saix. Though when he does have it, he uses it to defend himself. The Cane should be fair game since it's just a cane, sure body armor would be off the table, but there is no reason Sora couldn't use it. I can't tell if you're saying Link shouldn't or should be able to wield a Keyblade if given the chance. It really isn't though considering Sora shouldn't know how to use half of his reaction command then.

The cane only has defensive properties, 1 he'd have no reason to use it. 2 All of his reaction commands are just that. reactive or proactive offensive commands. Show me Sora using said reaction commands to make use of an defensive item, not using an offensive item, partially defensively. Barrier, intangibility, just higher durability. Not using a sword to block. That is the point I'm getting at. Sora's an offensive type character, he's never done such a thing.

1.) Sure he may not use it but he would definitely try to disarm Link. 2.) Not really some are just purely reactive like blocking the pirates attack. Kingdom Hearts 3 shows Sora using a shield very efficiently. That doesn't make him an offensive type he uses a lot of defense.

@cor_tsar said:

Neither is Link's invincibility armor and time magic. It really isn't that likely. It will considering his invincible gear will eventually run out.

Really? What's more likely than him taking a step and automatically using a form invulnerability magic? Daruk's protection is the most likely thing to happen for Link. After that why wouldn't he start using his high defensive gear or time manip? And again, even if he faints, he comes back, it's now doubly likely He'd aim for a defensive or maneuverability stance

Him not wanting to waste valuable gear on an opponent he knows nothing about. It would make more sense for him to go charging in swinging with a sword. It really isn't and does not offer that much protection against elemental attacks like blizzard. As the wiz robes can still freeze Link. Still doesn't know who Sora is. Sure he comes back but he'll still have to get up, something Sora could just easily use to his benefit.

That point really doesn't matter considering, Sora can just do it again. Link will have to drink the Romani first. Which Sora could easily intercept.

Link could be invulnerable or have time stopped to drink the romani. it wouldn't be that hard

Even if he was invulnerable he could still be knocked back which could disarm him. Time stop still wouldn't impact Sora. It would be.

Even if Sora had to be on the defense he could easily glide away and keep his distance it wouldn't be that hard. Not really if he calls on her again.

It limits what he's capable of and I'm pretty sure she's a full magic bar summon. If he gets ko'd and then ko'd again before his magic meter or drive gauge is full enough to use her again, it's game. Meanwhile Link still has all his attacks and tools available with Mipha's grace still in play. Tinkerbell is not superior to Mipha's Grace or standard fairies for that matter. It's a very limited form of coming back from Ko that also limits what he's capable of.

Not really. He still has a lot of magic to use, and could just use an either to recover. Mipha's Grace doesn't protect Link though and that charge is dangerous. While Link will still have to recover on his own. She is as she continually heals him and revives him. While Mipha only heals once, with a super bad recharge and the fairies only one time uses. It doesn't really limit Sora but, it does limit Link.

Okay. It's simple, Sora just waits Link out then defeats him that's how.

Time Stop coupled with high damaging attacks and AoE attacks would drain Sora relatively fast, or at least soon enough. Pretty sure link would figure something out over the course of a couple days.

Sora just has too high of a defense for Link to get through. Even with time stopping abilities Sora could just easily recover. I really don't think he would.

The only thing you brought new to the table was Stop and Slow Screen. Which if used against Time manipulators on Par with Link's time stopping and slowing abilities... I'd actually say Sora wins. I don't see Link tagging and damaging Sora enough without said abilities in play. Link can tag him with AoE attacks, but I don't think he'd be able to damage him enough/ overcome Sora's healing abilities.

They have. I really don't think Link could tag him even with AoE attacks.

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#4  Edited By KeybladeWielder
@cor_tsar said:
@tanakaclinkenbeard said:

I'm sorry I've been avoiding this but how do you know that the Magic armor can withstand Sora's attacks? Yeah in the LoZ verse it good, but has it really tank anything within KH strength? Saying that Sora wouldn't hurt Link when Sora has dealt damage higher then what's shown in the LoZ game is NLF. Also Sora does not need to say stop for Stop to be used.

1. Link's intangibility item makes the point irrelevant anyways. As it's intangibility, not just invulnerability.

2. One of Link's Barrier abilities is effectively offensive as well, so it's damaging as well makes him invulnerable, not too easy to pierce.

3. Link's higher level invulnerability items are effective against Ganondorf, who's consistently shown off Large Building(Castle sized, larger than skyscraper sizes Sora shows off) stats and destructive capabilities. (Example 1 & 2) With island level to planetary magic abilities. The fact it stands up against him is more than enough proof his multiple invulnerability magics will stand up against Sora's attacks. Sora isn't Superman level in physical stats. He's a MHS to sub rel Building to small hill buster. A standard mid-tier character. Trust me, I wouldn't have brought them up if they weren't strong enough to compete

And really?

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I don't recall stop being used without being vocalized. Even Mickey Mouse, the current Keyblade Veteran still says vocalizes Stop magic.

1.) That's not the point though, sure he can go intangible but in order to do damage he'll have to come out.

2.) You mean the Cane of Byrna? Link would definitely try his best not to use it considering he can't use any other equipment when it's being used.

3.) Ganondorf has only shown that kind of power with his magic nothing else. At least from a pure physical perspective. Not really, at best he's really small island level. Not really Sora is way better physical feats unlike Ganondorf.

4.) He was probably talking about Sora's stop spell from DDD. In which Sora doesn't say stop, he just follows it up with his normal battle cry. Although I think in the Japanese version he does say stop. As for Mickey he used a way advanced version of stop in stopza which is leagues above the regular stop, stopra, and stopga. So there's just the good chance that since it is a very powerful spell Mickey needed to call it by name.

@cor_tsar said:

Yeah no. Imma stop you right there. It is perfect in character for Sora to use a timestop. Read above for the magic armor.

You're not wrong. It's also perfectly in character for him to start with a drive form, or gravity, or magnet, or Aero, or any other set of high level abilities. Doesn't make any of them more likely.

The same could be said for Link. Even with that most of Link's abilities that allow him to stop time are very specific. The Ocarina can only reverse time, with a very specific song. The Master Sword can reverse/fast-forward time but it needs to be at a certain location. I believe Ciela can create time orbs for Link, but that's outside help. The Sheikah Slate can freeze an opponent but Link must first lock onto the opponent. Even with all this Sora as of DDD is now immune to time manipulation thanks to slow and stop screen.

@cor_tsar said:

Sora has a way to self revival himself too. Tinkerbell.

Yeah, but again, Link's is easier to access or more available. Sora would have to be prepared and summon her before hand and then it wouldn't be available right away and would limit other abilities and other summons. Meanwhile Link's self revival is internal. And has no magic cost whatsoever and limits no other abilities.

It's really not. For a lot of Link's healing abilities it's usually outside help like Mipha's Grace or Fairies. While others would just take to long like eating. It's not really internal, it's external when it activates. It causes the ability to recharge for like twenty minutes. Sora on the other hand has Potions, Ethers, Elixirs, his various Drive Forms, etc.

@cor_tsar said:

That is wrong. As Tifa,Beast,Simba and Yuffie can hit Heartless without magic weapons and Sora has beaten heartless up with his bare hands.

Every character that tags heartless is magic. I mean, Simba moves at sub sonic speeds and literally raises the ground with his roar... this is not your disney/ff characters, these guys are obviously magic. I don't know what you're talking about with Sora beating Heartless with his fist unless you're considering a QTE or special attack when Sora is still a keyblade user. When Sora didn't have the keyblade he couldn't physically hit the heartless except with magic.

What? Tron is not magic, the Beast while cursed has no magic abilities of his own. Jack Sparrow isn't magical. That's less Simba is magic, and more he's just way more powerful than his regular Disney self. That doesn't mean that Sora is using magic though. He could it just didn't do anything.

@cor_tsar said:

This is stupid. Really stupid. Sora has taken weapon from his enemies all the time, but he wouldn't take the thing that could be weapons and for whatever reason he can't use them..... Despite he was able to do Bersek with Saix claymore and etc. He never took an invulnerability item? What does that mean? What makes them different then all the other items he taken from the foes?

um, It's a defensive item. Name one time Sora's taken anything and used it anyway except offensively. Again Silly would be saying Link has the makings of a keyblade Master, has used legendary magical weapons before, is a master of all weaponry due to multiple lifetimes of knighthood, and has taken his enemy weapons before, that he should be able to use a keyblade. Saying Sora's not gonna take a cape, wear it, and know it's exact affects and how to use it's intangibility effects is pretty smart in my opinion.

Saix's claymore, sure he eventually uses it against Saix. Though when he does have it, he uses it to defend himself. The Cane should be fair game since it's just a cane, sure body armor would be off the table, but there is no reason Sora couldn't use it. I can't tell if you're saying Link shouldn't or should be able to wield a Keyblade if given the chance. It really isn't though considering Sora shouldn't know how to use half of his reaction command then.

@cor_tsar said:

Again, What's stopping Sora from casting his stop magic first?

Nothing, but it's not guaranteed Sora will use it first. Again more probable for Link to equip any one of several invulnerability abilities as a first move than Sora is to use just one of multitude of offensive attacks. If he does use it and Link has invulnerability/intang/shield magic equipped it won't matter anyways.

And in the one chance it does happen as a first move, and Sora time stop blitzes from the rip... Link just revives himself, makes sure he's invulnerable so that doesn't happen again. And then uses a far superior counter... and then nothing. Link will be invulnerable for 3 days, and Sora's gonna have to stay on the defensive the entire time, getting time blitzed multiple times. Tinkerbell's only gonna be able to save him once.

I don't see how Sora really stands on a leg here.

Neither is Link's invincibility armor and time magic. It really isn't that likely. It will considering his invincible gear will eventually run out.

That point really doesn't matter considering, Sora can just do it again. Link will have to drink the Romani first. Which Sora could easily intercept. Even if Sora had to be on the defense he could easily glide away and keep his distance it wouldn't be that hard. Not really if he calls on her again.

Okay. It's simple, Sora just waits Link out then defeats him that's how.

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@chimeroid: Sorry, I haven't been really active. Things have been really getting in the way of that. So, I don't really have much time to simply go write on every forum. Only the ones that really interest me, such as this one. As I've never really seen CaVs with MLP characters in them before

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This CaV. This CaV, was amazing. I never thought it be possible for someone to argue for a MLP character on this site, but man AB you did a really good job at arguing for your team. Chimeroid you did an amazing job for your team, you proved that not only can your team drain Thor and Kratos of their abilities. You also brought up In-Character actions, and how Kratos, Thor, and Desak won't exactly get along, and maybe might start some In-Side fighting. However, I think when it comes to who overall argued better. That regards goes to ASGARDIANBRONY, he showed his team could deal with the draining, had the power they needed to deal with CS, and I do think Brony showed that when push comes to shove these characters will use said abilities. So, my vote goes to @asgardianbrony. Good job to both of you though

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@thor_parker82: Just a heads up, he did have it temporarily shut off by the Goat Faced Girl. However, it came back very quickly

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