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#1  Edited By kenshiroo

@caped_baldy: Hulk failed to hold Jugg because he was being pushed back. Skaar's Old power was crushed with him in three punches, not mention he tricked him in order to BFR'd him. All indicates Jugg was the strongest physically.

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#2  Edited By kenshiroo

@dre_savage:

By the way I almost missed; Juggernaut won the strength lock because WWH was being pushed back. Let’s check

First panel.

Juggernaut knocked down WWH in one punch which made him vomit blood and later stomped his head into the ground.

No Caption Provided

WWH rises with all his might and anger and punched Juggernaut’s face with a strong double hammer fist uppercut that barely dented his helmet slightly. Juggernaut does not suffer any physical damage.

No Caption Provided

WWH tried to crush Juggernaut’s head with a vice grip but it was in vain, because Juggernaut broke WWH's vice grip with a simple headbutt in his chest which made Hulk vomit blood again. Hulk loses the melee battle.

No Caption Provided

Second panel.

In another futile attempt, WWH put the Juggernaut in a strength lock and tried to stop him; however, clearly, although WWH was resisting him with all his strength he failed to do it because was being pushed back by Juggernaut.

No Caption Provided

Third panel.

In that moment, WWH was not able to stop the Juggernaut’s forward motion and much less can not reverse his forward motion (something impossible for WWH, otherwise, he would be indisputably the strongest one). Therefore, WWH was unable to stop the Juggernaut and was forced to accept the Juggernaut can not be stopped when he released his hold and sidestepped him in a cheating way, unexpectedly. This happened when Juggernaut was distracted by Charles, who yelled him out to stop fighting with WWH because he was collapsing the whole mansion (We must remember, Juggernaut turned his head to look Charles while even he was pushing back the Hulk). This means that even the full strength of WWH was not enough to demand all the attention, strength and concentration of Juggernaut, who was pushing him back. Again, WWH was unable to stop and much less reverse Jugg's unstoppability.

No Caption Provided

In that situation is when Hulk was forced to say “I don’t have all day”. WWH said that because he was pushed back and showed his inability to physically withstand the Juggernaut’s strength in a brawl (even distracted), so he said this as an excuse after his cheat movement because he could not stop the Juggernaut, clearly.

No Caption Provided

Sadly, Hulk was in a hurry to escape from Jugg because he could not beat him by physical force. Therefore, after Jugg gave to Hulk an almost beat up, an angriest Hulk said "you will be dead Jugg" but he could not do more anything than just get away from him when he began to be pushed back in the strength lock. Jugg made Hulk retract his words by the way of imposing his unstoppable physical force over him. This proves Jugg was the strongest and WWH didn't have other choice than just manage to BFR Jugg by giving up himself in a test of strength with a cheat movement.

Ah, for those who say the supposedly and biased Gage’s opinion about that WWH stopped Juggernaut, let me say two things: the comics panels reveal that situation did not happen; on the contrary, clearly shown that Hulk was being pushed back by Juggernaut. Not is the same to stop someone than resist his advance. In this case, Hulk was resisting the advance of Cain in order to stop him, but failed because he was being pushed back. Second, Gage’s opinion was a false soporific to calm the avalanche of complaints about what I think was an overwhelming and impressive display of power and physical superiority of Juggernaut over WWH.

Gage wanted to offer a sort of consolation opinion in order to calm the avalanche of Hulk's fans disappointments before the physical defeat of Hulk by Jugg, saying he “stop momentarily” when in fact he had a failed attempt to stop him.

These are the reasons why I think:

Round 1: No BFR, Juggernaut solo can knock out WWH.

Round 2: Morals off, Juggernaut solo can kill WWH mercilessly.

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#3  Edited By kenshiroo

Round 1: No BFR, Juggernaut solo can knock out WWH.

Round 2: Morals off, Juggernaut solo can kill WWH mercilessly.

Juggernaut was able to knock down WWH in one punch, stomped his face and forced him to accept he is unstoppable.

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#4  Edited By kenshiroo

Yahweh or God (with “G” capital letter) is the figurehead of the three Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Islam and Christianity represented in Marvel as another member of the Council of Godheads, a committee of the leaders of the Earth's pantheons of gods or sky-fathers worshiped by the Earth's various cultures.

In Marvel, God/Yahweh is portrayed as another skyfather level being in What If issue v1 #32 (bottom right):

No Caption Provided

Despite he isn't specifically called Yahweh in that issue, Marvel clarified he was the character in Marvunapp (Marvel's official website page):

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthkorvacconquers.htm

Scroll down to the comments part, it says:

"bottom right image was meant to represent Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God)......"

Also you can check in this:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godhed.htm

Scroll down to the comments part where Marvel established God/Yahweh is a skyfather-level being.

Judeo-Christian - God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit

“--According to a former intern from Marvel, in What If I#32, the character seen in the bottom right panel of the gods and demons blocked from accessing Earth by Korvac was supposed to be Yahweh, though it looks more like Jesus.”

By the way, this "What if" universe is actually a canon or an official alternate reality, unlike some others which aren't even acknowledged as being alternate realities by the writers. This can be checked in Korvack OTOTMU bio and the canon Quasar issue #30.

According to the comic panel God/ Yahweh is just another earthy god like Odin and Zeus who is part of the same Council of Godheads and the like. He along with them was defeated by Korvac in such reality, so this confirms he is not the true Supreme Being in the Marvel Multiverse (he is not universal and much less multiversal). He is just an anchored god in individual pocket reality dimension (the Heaven) as the others earthly gods do it in their respective earthly realms. Therefore, the Heaven in Marvel is no different than Asgard or Olimpus realm. Not mention Odin and Zeus have both either made claims to or been called "all-knowing," "all-powerful," "highest of the high” “The living omnipotence” or other such grandiose claims and titles.

In addition, must be pointed out that God/ Yahweh is portrayed as being far more than a mere skyfather in Ghost Rider related stories only, but this happens because Yahweh is the supreme being only in Ghost Rider related stories like Odin is for Thor stories. Outside from Ghost Rider centered stories he is established as nothing more than a common skyfather level deity.

It should be pointed out all "skyfathers or earthly gods" in the real world (out of comics) are considered creators of the Earth and even the universe which encompasses it because each one is conceived by the mankind in their respective myths of origin and the collective imagination of every culture (Cosmology). However in Marvel Yahweh could be the creator of the Earth as Brahma could be the creator of Earth in the Hindu Mythology (Trimurti) and this doesn't actually contradict his sky-father status because is how in the mankind is portrayed or perceived the existence of the Judeo-Christian cosmology as well as the Hindu cosmology about the figure of their all powerful creators respectively but being another mirror in the way of how Marvel writers think. Therefore, in Marvel comic, every pantheon's creation story or portrayals are not shown in a similar way to their respective real mythologies or cosmologies as we know in the history of our world. More even knowing that all of them were fathered by Gaea, who is portrayed as an Elder God instead of Greek goddess based on the Gaia of Greek mythology or Jöro of Norse mythology.

In our real world I believe God is all powerful, but is my faith, in Marvel comics is different, he is portrayed seemingly near-omnipotent in the Heaven’s realm within GR centered stories but outside of it (within Earth-616) he is not so powerful. Yahweh only grants miracles and divine benefits to all those mortals who by the way of rites of worship, invoke his name and obey the laws of a religion (based on the cult of his personality and the faith) to praise him above other gods as occurs with the rest of earthly gods or deities (except Ghost Rider who was elected as the Yahweh’s avatar of his vengeful or wrathful aspect). Even Dr. Strange has invoked Yahweh's name to defeat Dracula (Dr Strange v2 #14), showing in this way that God/Yahweh works as any other earthly deity which is not represented above other Earth's pantheons of gods in Marvel in order to avoid offend other religious people and their respective faith.

Only there is a supreme being in Marvel and is The One Above All (TOAA) (who is the actual comic book writer-artist) who is Omnipotent (All Powerful), Omniscient (All Knowing), and Omnipresent (Everywhere), responsible for the existence of all life or conceptual beings in the Earth-616 universe, multiverse, and possibly beyond (the Omniverse). He created all the abstracts (Living Tribunal, Oblivion, Eternity, Infinity, Death, etc.), the Demiurge (who later created the Elder Gods and with them Gaea where “were born gods of diverse divinity given substance by the Demiurge and given form by the unconscious mind of mankind”, being Gaea “the mother god to virtually all of the Earth-based pantheons of later gods” Encyclopedia Mythological Marvel), created the Old Ones (which are not one race, such Cthulhu, Shuma Gorath, Asteroth, Azotharoth, Shub-Niggurath *who is a different being of Shuma Gorath, according to Marvel Zombies*, Yog-Sothoth, etc), The Principalities (magical beings or entities which are not related within Earth’s origins or Eternity’s multiverse origins such Cyttorak, Raggadorr, Dyzakk, Valtorr, etc) and other extra-dimensional but non magical beings not related with Eternity’s multiverse (such as the Beyonders), etc, etc...

OHOTMU Lt bio:

No Caption Provided

In the Mighty Avengers “Most Wanted Files”:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Source: http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/omnapp.htm

As we can see TOAA is the only one who created the Omniverse, he is the only Supreme Being who created the Marvel universe, multiverse and all magical dimensions, places and non places, according to Marvel. Besides, such definition or title of a Supreme Being (the artist-writter) is applied to other franchises comic (as The Presence in DC, for example) because it extends within the Omniverse, which is one and encompasses all the realities, beings or entities of other comic companies.

TOAA should not be confused with Yahweh (represented in the theological Judeo-Christian monotheistic concept of God) who is a skyfather level being according to comic panel, confirmed by Marvel.

Having clarified Yahweh is not the Supreme Being but is mentioned as "all powerfull" only in Ghost Rider related stories like Odin is for Thor stories, is a fact Ghost Rider’s penance stare wielders the Yahweh’s divine power to combat the evil on Earth in a variety but limited range of effects which varying from inflicting pain to petrification until knocking out or killing. Also this power only works at least under three conditions:

1) The victim must have a soul.

2) The soul must be stained by actions that are evil or known to be wrong.

3) Requires eye contact to be effective.

Cain’s soul fits both 1 and 2 conditions (he killed the former Juggernaut Taiko and slayed an entire village) but being a magical powerhouse as the Juggernaut, the GR stare death inducement cannot kill him because he is immortal and unkillable. Cain’s soul belongs to Cyttorak and therefore is protected by him, not mention Cyttorak’s mystical power can negate all this type magic which stems from Yahweh’s power (who is on par with Skyfathers level). In addition, The GR penance stare looks like more a mental attack than a mystical attack or could be a combination of both because involves reading into someone's mind and soul in order to make them feel the pain and the death of everyone they hurt and killed. However, Juggernaut can not be hurt, injured or killed by physical or emotional pain caused to others due his soul is absolutely protected by Cyttorak’s powers. In this way Juggernaut’s power source can negate GR’s penance stare.

Otherwise, assuming the GR’s penance stare has enough psychic force to shut down Jugg’s brain function for a while, GR will need to take off the Juggernaut’s mind-disrupting helmet because he would not be able to read through mechanical or magical artifacts, so this move is also useless if Jugg is wearing his mind-disrupting helmet.

The third option is really impossible to GR without being knocked out or killed by Jugg punches but he would have to devise a way to take off Jugg’s helmet and then applies the stare (supposing has more a mental attack effect to knock him).

*All this goes without saying that Cyttorak is an extra-dimensional god who is not subject to the theological Judeo-Christian creation or rules represented in the Earth. Second, Cyttorak has the power to defeat Skyfathers as he did with the Serpent Cul (Odin's brother), who could get his ass kicked out if Cain so wanted to do with Cyttorak's power (but he chose not to do), not to mention he almost killed his avatar Kuurth. In addition, Oblivion could not kill the Juggernaut and D'Spayre (boosted in a universal reality warper level) who drained a portion of Jugg/Cyttorak's powers could not kill him. Even Onslaught admitted that Cyttorak's power totally protects Juggernaut from being destroyed*

Juggernaut can tank the penance stare and win this easily, as long as GR can not shut down his brain functions with a supposedly stare “psychic concussive assault” by penalizing his sins. Only if GR succeeds in this way, he would knock him out briefly and would result in his victory. Otherwise he would be crushed.

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#5  Edited By kenshiroo

Kenshin Himura (Rurouni Kenshin, 1996)

Draw
Draw

Hajime Saito (Rurouni Kenshin, 1996)

Draw
Draw

Colin MacLeod (Highlander: The Search for Vengeance, 2007)

vs Marcus Octavius
vs Marcus Octavius

Afrosamurai (Afrosamurai, 2007)

No Caption Provided
vs Shichigoro
vs Shichigoro

Jubei Kibagami (Ninja Scroll- the movie, 1993)

vs Tessai
vs Tessai

vs Genma Himuro
vs Genma Himuro

Nanashi (Sword of the Stranger, 2007)

No Caption Provided

vs Luo-lang
vs Luo-lang

Jin (Samurai Champloo, 2004)

Draw
Draw

Mugen (Samurai Champloo, 2004)

Draw
Draw

Guts (Berserk, 1997)

vs Griffith (human)
vs Griffith (human)

Dante (Dante's Inferno: An Animated Epic, 2010)

still being human
still being human

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#6  Edited By kenshiroo

@laylah said:

@kenshiroo:

Blackheart never was mentioned by Mephisto, also in the hell appear all other demons but only Cyttorak was first mentioned (above Dormammu and Surtur) as the closest candidate to be the true Satan because he has the power to do it and he is the most militant (subsequently Dormammu and Surtur were mentioned as other possible candidates after Cyttorak). Besides, Cyttorak appears closer to the Satan’s throne than all of them as shown in the lower corner of the panel, that's clear, my lady.

He doesn't need as Blackheart can be seen being closer to the throne than Shuma-Gorath:

No Caption Provided

As well Mephisto being closer than Dormammu. Does this mean they're more powerful? The same logic of Cyttorak appearing closer to the throne can be used to the others.

It's not even regarding to power, so I don't know why you mentioned.

Laylah, my dear, my whole point was to point out what Mephisto said about Cyttorak in the demon's ranking power as the closest candidate to be the true Satan and how that was conjugated perfectly with his proximity to the Satan’s throne in the second panel, but until now you have not put a single scan where Mephisto points out something about the hierarchy of Blackheart when you said this “It was never mentioned that Blackheart being above Shuma?.....”

Mephisto in his sarcastic comments quoted Cyttorak as the closest candidate to be the true Satan because has the power to be and he is the most militant above Dormammu, Surtur and the rest of demons and extra-dimensional beings which appears around the throne. I'm not basing his position in the proximity to the throne; I am considering what Mephisto said about Cyttorak's hierarchy on the comic panel (the writing of the narrator) and the coincidence he has within his proximity to the throne when he referred the most serious candidates from all demons (Cyttorak, Dormammu and Surtur).

Dormammu, Mephisto and Surtur can be argued to be above Shuma by using your same words.

Yep, why not Dormammu and Surtur would be above Shuma Gorath? I know how powerful is Shuma Gorath but almost all of his mystical power stems from his leech ability to parasitize or siphon energy from other beings more than his own ability to generate his own mystical energy, which is quite limited and is a noticeable weakness that he has (perhaps because of this, he was not considered to be mentioned by Mephisto). Besides, Dormammu and Surtur have feats that have threatened to destroy the universe, especially Dormammu (I dont sure about Surtur) but I exclude Mephisto because he is outclassed by these: Cyttorak, Shuma Gorath, Dormammu and Surtur, even he recognized he can not be called himself in the slightest as Satan. Mephisto was not random when he mentioned or depicted on panel this three in order of hierarchy (Cyttorak, Dormammu and Surtur).

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Both released Eternity and then Jugg was banished to Oblivion, this more than known and these scans are irrelevant to this post since my point was to point out how Jugg (by invoking some Cyttorak's spells) bested and laughed down the Nightmare amped with Eternity cosmic powers in his own realm, that's all, my lady ;)

They released an Eternity who wanted to be captured and by his own admission could escape anytime.

You’re free like a beautiful undecided butterfly to think whatever you want about that, don't you, my dear? But remember Nightmare seized Eternity from the inside by using all sleeping sentient beings (one-third of the total lifeforms in the universe and therefore a powerful minority of Eternity) which drove Eternity to sleep. Therefore, this was enough to put Eternity under the absolute Nightmare's control in order to obliterate the Earth.

The way you described it seems like Nightmare had his powers amped to the same level of Eternity and this is not true. Nightmare also lost to Dagger and Sif in his own realm too.

Certainly Laylah, you got the reason in the first idea, Nighty did not have all the power of Eternity but in this amped state, Nighty almost forced Eternity to dream the planet Earth's obliteration (before being stopped by Jugg). He had controlled a fraction of the Eternity’s powers in which at least he was amped into a buster or reality warper planet level.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And so they invoked Satannish in order to grant them more power (Exocentric magic as I’ve explained in the previous pos) thus they invoked the Rings of Negativistic or Nihilistic Force, however, this did not work and were dispelled by Strange's counterspells, as it was depicted on the panel. Later they tried to trap Dr. Strange within a cube of nothingness but Strange managed to escape and overcame as well others subsequent attacks.

All attacks of the Sons of Satannish by invoking the power of their master were dispelled or negated by Dr. Stranger's counterspells.

This happened after they accomplished the ritual and I think we're having some communication problems here......What I'm trying to explain is that you can't compare the power from the entity itself to the followers, such as Lork Nekron after getting his powers from Satannish isn't comparable to the same. Satannish overpowered Strange during numerous occasions and some of them without any effort, but the same can't be translated to his minions.

I don't why you summarized both stories since none of that was part of my reasoning. Their plot or contidions aren't important as I'm not going to post the whole thing.While I missed the part where they were the other members were used to bring back Surtur and Ymir, I still don't know why mention the rest.

Laylah all is right but you said this, I quote: “Also, I don't think that just invoking the name of the principalities is enough to call all of their power......Otherwise the 'Sons of Satannish' and other groups wouldn't' get stomped by Strange so many times”

The Sons of Satannish summoned powerful Sattannish’ spells which were dispelled by Strange’s counter spells (of several Principalities such as: Cyttorak, Denak, etc.) several times. What it means much of the invoked Satannish’s powers or several of his spells were dispelled or negated by magical spells of greater mystical force such as the Principalities. This was my point all the time, my dear.

Benton had the powers given by Satannish and even then struggled against Stephen, which didn't happen during Giant Size Defenders where Strange got easily defeated( Even if Benton was brought back to life)

And then all Satannish spells were dispelled or negated by Dr. Strange's counterspells, called from the Principalities.

Dr. Strange may be got almost defeated by the Asmodeus trap set in this occasion (Giant-Size Defenders #2, 1974) because he was powered up and resurrected by Satannish. However, I give Strange the benefit of the doubt because Hellstrom was who beat up Asmodeus and broke the spell, if he had not interfered I would have to see in what extent Strange had been defended himself against an amped Asmodeus (by Satannish). If Dr. Strange could beat face to face an amped Asmodeus before when was powered up by the mystical secret knowledge and powers cast from the Vishanti’s book, why he would not do the same in a situation like this? Certainly is a possibility but is speculation on my part.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@laylah said:

@xiix: I just re-read the issues and one of them was during Juggernaut#Vol.2

They fought inside of Cain's mind:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Yep it was a battle in which Cain's will was stronger.

Another was during X-Men Unlimited#12.

Cain was more powerful than normal and Cyttorak was weakened, but this happened inside of the Crimson Cosmos( Where they claim Cyttorak possess omnipotence):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Laylah, you forgot to mention that Gomur and Tar bonded again Cyttorak energies to Juggernaut/Cain, ie, they transferred the power of the spell trapping Cyttorak into Cain, restoring the Juggernaut's power (remember Jugg was absolutely depowered only when he was just locked inside the CC by Onslaught) so this caused Cain could receive full power of the destructive Cyttorak aspect and then managed to escape from CC by punching him, shattering only the weakened destructive Cyttorak aspect into pieces (one aspect of him). Remember Cyttorak has two aspects (the good and evil) and Juggernaut (Cain) is the representation of one Cyttorak's aspect (the destructive o evil aspect), therefore, if he does not serve as a direct portal to enter this world he serves as an avatar that praises his most destructive aspect in this plane (one of Cyttorak’s task or objetive). What I mean is that Cyttorak did not have something to lose in this meet and therefore did not affect his omnipotence on CC at all.

And Cain also defeated another Juggernaut with Cyttorak's powers during Excalibur#15:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

That was a trial imposed by Cyttorak to Cain in order to awake from him his destructive side again and prove his worth as the Juggernaut again. Provoking Cain, Cyttorak put Hongdo Park (a false avatar) to fight with him; however, the Cyttorak’s plan did not work since Cain refused to kill his false replacement. Therefore, Cyttorak also refused to restore Cain’s full juggernaut power. Frustrated by his weakness, Cain eventually agreed to Cyttorak’s offer, regaining his might in exchange for abandoning his heroic career, embracing rampage and destruction. All this did not put in doubt the omnipotence of Cyttorak in CC, on the contrary, it strengthens since he within CC can communicate with his worshippers within different dimensions, he can create mystical barriers and magical guardians in his temple, he can empower others as Juggernaut, he can teleport someone wherever he wants, among many other things.

@xiix said:

@kenshiroo: Sorry, darling.

That ain't evidence he'd prevail the fight without Strange saving him, or that his ass wasn't out of the fight.

Especially since Cyttorak pretended to be “defeated” but you like to skip the final panels to say the opposite ;)

Try again, Kenshipoo.

I've seen your EXACT SAME argument posted ad nauseam for years now.

Cyttorak has such impressive feats, it always devolves into how/if/or why he got taken out by his own herald.

Cyttorak fooled his avatar all the time

That and/or.......................................yeah...............

Another beautiful butterfly right? Oo

I’m so lucky ^__^

You pair of two, look like two beautiful Vestal goddesses whose worshiper of yours is me ♥_______________________♥

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@xiix said:
@kenshiroo said:
@xiix said:

Ghost Rider both rounds(or stalemate for the first).

Second round, Zarathos just plucks the gem from Cyttorak's person.

Just like..........Juggernaut did. Cyttorak then needed Dr. Strange to save his (nigh) featless/overrated ass.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Glad I read Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #44 - [Infinity War Crossover](the same issue where the scans further up the page come from), since that instance is oh so conveniently excluded most times from threads featuring him.

Judging by what you said I suspect you did not read the whole comic because you omitted the final panels when Cyttorak, Strange and Nova clarified what happened and which I’ve explained in my previous post.

No offense buddy, but I think you do not want to keep showing a poor reading comprehension in comic (assuming you are not trolling) so I hope you don’t continue ignoring these panels, please.

That was the immediate panel after Strange re-fitted the gem into his head.

Which is what I said he did.

0/10

Your speculation isn't neither evidence, nor feats.

Evidence had him on his red ass until the it was saved by Strange.

Bait harder.

Kid, the gem was false, it was pointed out by Cyttorak on panel, sorry.

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#8  Edited By kenshiroo

@xiix said:

Ghost Rider both rounds(or stalemate for the first).

Second round, Zarathos just plucks the gem from Cyttorak's person.

Just like..........Juggernaut did. Cyttorak then needed Dr. Strange to save his (nigh) featless/overrated ass.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Glad I read Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #44 - [Infinity War Crossover](the same issue where the scans further up the page come from), since that instance is oh so conveniently excluded most times from threads featuring him.

Judging by what you said I suspect you did not read the whole comic because you omitted the final panels when Cyttorak, Strange and Nova clarified what happened and which I’ve explained in my previous post.

No offense buddy, but I think you do not want to keep showing a poor reading comprehension in comic (assuming you are not trolling) so I hope you don’t continue ignoring these panels, please.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

The gem was just a decoration of a humanoid image created by Cyttorak for communicating with lesser beings and never was his truly form because he is the whole CC, plus the false Gem never granted more powers to Jugg as Cyttorak said in the panels. Not to mention that he already knew everything that was going on in the CC and how fooled the Juggernaut. Cyttorak only pretended to be “defeated” (READ THE WORD “DEFEATED” IN QUOTATION MARKS) in such humanoid image to see how loyal were their worshippers: Dr. Strange and Nova.

I think is sufficiently clear that Cyttorak was entertaining all the time with them.

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#9  Edited By kenshiroo

@laylah said:

Do you really want to know what scans are out of context? First of, your so beloved scan from Journey into Mystery#627 has a problem:

No Caption Provided

It was never mentioned Blackheart being above Shuma?.....Well, you can see who is closer to the throne, in fact, I find hilarious that you're trying to argue Cyttorak's position while ignoring all the others since we have Mephisto above Dormammu, Blackheart above Shuma and some even worse. I doubt it relates to power, so why you mentioned this is beyond me.

Blackheart never was mentioned by Mephisto, also in the hell appear all other demons but only Cyttorak was first mentioned (above Dormammu and Surtur) as the closest candidate to be the true Satan because he has the power to do it and he is the most militant (subsequently Dormammu and Surtur were mentioned as other possible candidates after Cyttorak). Besides, Cyttorak appears closer to the Satan’s throne than all of them as shown in the lower corner of the panel, that's clear, my lady.

You also love to mention Doctor Strange#182, don't you? Saying that Juggernaut defeated Nightmare with Eternity's powers, but I never saw you posting this pages:

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Both released Eternity and then Jugg was banished to Oblivion, this more than known and these scans are irrelevant to this post since my point was to point out how Jugg (by invoking some Cyttorak's spells) bested and laughed down the Nightmare amped with Eternity cosmic powers in his own realm, that's all, my lady ;)

There's much more things and scans out of context in your post, but was in regards to Zorn( It's not my debate).

Hmm. lets check

I won't quote an entire unnecessary text about the Sons of Satannish as I'm almost sure you missed the entire point.....You even reinforced my own. Heck, three members themselves admitted they weren't powerful enough against Strange:

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And so they invoked Satannish in order to grant them more power (Exocentric magic as I’ve explained in the previous pos) thus they invoked the Rings of Negativistic or Nihilistic Force, however, this did not work and were dispelled by Strange's counterspells, as it was depicted on the panel. Later they tried to trap Dr. Strange within a cube of nothingness but Strange managed to escape and overcame as well others subsequent attacks.

All attacks of the Sons of Satannish by invoking the power of their master were dispelled or negated by Dr. Stranger's counterspells.

A much better example is when Charles Benton absorbed the powers from the other members:

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My lady, I see you forgot this happened long after the first assault, and you have omitted a lot of scans about the plot at least of two issues in which Benton (Asmodeus, leader of the Sons of Satannish) attempted to seize the book of Vishanti twice. With the book in his possession Benton took a great mystical power so he performed a ritual (Exocentric magic again) by casting the spells of Fire (Surtur) and Ice (Ymir) just found in the Vishanti’s book that drained the spiritual energies of his comrades (betraying them) so he could take the Dr. Strange’s form and magically dupe the Ancient One who allowed him to peruse the Book of the Vishanti. Also he was able to struggle against Dr. Strange but he exerted too much effort until finally he suffered a heart attack and died.

Let me help you with three scans:

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He was still struggling against Stephen:

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Benton amped with Book of The Vishanti.

However Satannish gave him more power later and Strange got defeated with just a gesture:

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This scan depicts a completely different situation; it comes from Giant-Size Defenders #2, 1974, where you've missed a lot of very important contextual information, my lady. First, Benton was not a human here; he convinced Satannish to give him a chance to return to life if he could exchange a living soul for his own. Therefore, he was revived and powered up by Satannish with the condition to provide him with the souls of the Defenders. With a trap set into a personal realm Benton could create illusions about the worst fears on them, so in this way Hulk was kidnapped and the rest of the team had to rescue him. Within Asmodeus’s domain each of them fell prey of their own fears; however, Dr. Strange freed all them until they directly faced Asmodeus who tried to zap them, but Daimon Hellstrom was unaffected by his Satanic (or Satanic-ish) powers thanks to the nether metal in his trident. Finally Benton was defeated by Daimon Hellstrom, and Satannish claimed Benton’s soul once again for his fail.

In this issue the Defenders were deceived (especially Hulk) and forced to enter into a Asmodeus's trap set in his briefly own personal realm. All these conditions contributed to Asmodeus had a slight advantage over the Defenders and possibly over Dr. Strange. Something he never could do while he was still alive.

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kenshiroo

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#10  Edited By kenshiroo

@zorn_a_rust_red_scythe said:

Kenshiroo, your Cyttorak fan-wanking level is over 9,000.

Disqualify do not help you to put a reasonable point to debate

The Vishanti are clearly superior to Cyttorak, don't know where you get Cyttorak > Vishanti from.

The Vishanti were afraid of Cyttorak, warning Doctor Strange not to mess with his creations. One example was showed when Dr. Strange did not receive a positive response for aid or assistance of their part, not even a whisper when he invoked the Vishanti within Cyttorak’s Crimson Cosmos. The Vishanti could not do nothing to help him and left him absolutely helpless, being owned by Cyttorak while Dr. Strange was able to invoke incantations or spells in the name of Cyttorak and other Principalities within Agamotto’s realm with no problem.

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Dr. Strange was absolutely helpless on CC and was owned by Cyttorak

By the way, if you go with the wrongly interpretation about Jugg teleported by Strange into CC to release him briefly and then he appears seemingly defeating Cyttorak because "supposedly knocked him out" when he ripped out his gem from his head, let me tell you all was a hoax scenery induced by Cyttorak since Cyttorak was aware of Juggernaut presence all the time on CC, he allowed himself "being defeated" (between quotation marks) by his avatar as a way to measure the sincerity and loyalty of his worshipers: Doc. Strange and Nova, he had already weakened Jugg's powers (therefore he could not be able to kill Doc. Strange with his punches) and left Nova break their bands in order to aid Strange.

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Doc Strange and the same Cyttorak said the entire Crimson Cosmos represents his very essence himself, he just only created the appearance of humanoid form of his godlike aspect to communicate with lesser beings, so in this way he also said that Juggernaut was a fool because he was deceived by an image created by Cyttorak that never represented his truly form. Not to mention he said the Gem was just a decoration of such humanoid image that never gave more powers to Juggernaut. Cyttorak just was entertaining with them.

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Strange was always very humble and fearful of Cyttorak but has not been the same case with Agamotto who was very disrespected several times by him. Dr. Strange has fought with Agamotto and even has fooled and extorted to him in order to stop him in his own realm.

Strange couldn't even harm Agamotto alone when he invoked powers from the entire Octessence in addition to Dormammu.

Strange could harm Agamotto, in fact, even invoking the spells of Cyttorak with other Principalities he could destroy one of the many aspects of Agamotto (caterpillar form) as it was showed on panel below. However, obviously Dr. Strange can not defeat Agamotto in his own realm (Agamotto will be reformed himself always in whatever he wants) but at least he caused a pain in his ass for a while, although Agamotto was pretending to say he was toying with him, until finally Dr. Strange fooled and extorted him to accept his deal.

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Strange did extort Agamotto and threatened him to break his pipe while one of the multiverse's most powerful denizens (member of Vishanti) had to accept the deal. If Agamotto truly was omnipotent might have been able to take the pipe from Strange or negate his mystical aura on it with a thought but he could not do it and had to surrender to the request of Strange. Also Agamotto confessed not being able to repair his own pipe if Strange had destroyed it. This clearly demonstrates that even Agamotto is not even truly omnipotent in his own realm while Cyttorak is omnipotent in his domain.

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Also couldn't do anything to Agamotto when invoking Cyttorak's Crimson Bands along with the Rings of Raggador. Agamotto alone > Cyttorak.

Dr. Strange never used Cyttorak bands to attack Agamotto this time. He just used them to grab the talismans and escape until Agamotto increased the orb to engulf him within it. This proves nothing.

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Otherwise, magic users can summon some mystic Principalities spell but their magic intensity and effectiveness depends on what level of concentration are their wielders in that moment. This is the reason because the Cyttorak band’s strength is sometimes affected by their wielder's power and skill; additionally, if the wielder is trying to protect the target from mystic injury, the force of the target’s resistance may be reflected back upon the wielder. Hulk and Namor have each broken the Crimson Bands only under such circumstances.

This even was said by Marvel Cyttorak’s Bio, from OHOTMU

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In such examples we see how the resistances of Cyttorak's bands were weakened when Strange in his astral form lost his concentration and almost all his spiritual strength after being violently expelled from Namor’s mind who was dominated by an uncontrollable homicidal rage.Dr. Strange barely had the strength to return to his body.

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By protecting Namor’s mind in his astral form, Dr Strange was hurled back and his target’s resistance was reflected back upon him as well due he lost concentration and strength, so Namor could break the Crimson Bands only under that circumstance.

Cyttorak bands are absolutely indestructible. Even Dr. Strange stated Cyttorak’s mystical bands are completely indestructible because they are composed of the same strands of energy that hold the Universe and no physical force in the world should even come close to rattling them (like the Hulk for example).

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This reinforces that someone who could steal Cyttorak’s energies can control the very fabric of the Universe or destroy it if that the case, as when happened with D'Spayre who plundered a fraction of Cyttorak’s energies from Jugg in order to briefly take control over the Universe and warp it or when another fraction was released from Juggenaut’s body within Trion’s universe and tore an immeasurable hole right into the fabric of space and time which started a void that almost destroyed their whole universe.

Returning to the explanation about how the Crimson band's resistance would be affected according to the level of concentration of the magic user. The same thing happened with Hulk, Strange was not using all his mystical power and spiritual energy to put a strong effect on Cyttorak’s bands because much of it was used to keep his concentration on his astral form, call the mystical effects of Agamotto’s eye over the Fantastic Four and still hold the Hulk for a while at the same time. Therefore, his Cyttorak’s bands spells were not strong enough to hold him up, so the mystical force over the Hulk’s resistance was reflected back upon Dr. Strange because his attention was dispersed to protect him from the Fantastic Four and the attack of the Human Torch, so then, Hulk just broke the bands only under that circumstance.

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Quite contrary, Dr. Strange without using his astral form (which consumes much of his mystical energy) and completely focused on his target was able to summon the Cyttorak’s crimson bands to fully immobilize or entrap the savage Hulk. In normal conditions, Dr. Strange can invoke the crimson bands with normal resistance so it showed how Cyttorak's bands are totally indestructible, unaffected or unbreakable against the brute force of Savage Hulk punches, who was locked on or entrapped into a Cyttorak’s bands sphere, three times.

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Only if the concentration of the magic user is affected the enchantment disappears (as it was explained before), in this case Hulk can not break the crimson bands with his punches but can maneuver inside the sphere by jumping off which caused the loss of concentration of Dr. Strange and therefore, the dissolution of his crimson bands incantations.

Another prove about Cyttorak’s bands are completely unbreakable against savage Hulk’s strength or punches.

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Dr. Strange releases briefly Hulk but then he encloses him again and then he finally releases him for his aid at the right time.

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So in this way Hulk was absolutely owned by Cyttorak’s unbreakable bands summoned by a magic user. Is not a surprise since the Juggernaut proved to be stronger than Hulk several times.

@laylah said:

@zorn_a_rust_red_scythe:

Kenshiroo, your Cyttorak fan-wanking level is over 9,000.

Besides a lot of out of context scans.

Come on sweetheart, why you don’t send me a sweet kiss and tell me what scans are out of context please?

@laylah said:

Also, I don't think that just invoking the name of the principalities is enough to call all of their power......Otherwise the ''Sons of Satannish'' and other groups wouldn't' get stomped by Strange so many times.

Ecocentric, Exocentric and Necromantic magic are only three most powerful principal forms to use magic just by invoking or conjuring spells in a supplicant way by using the entity’s name in a rhythmic or rhymed incantation. Only Egocentric magic is used when the magic users take into their own spiritual energies the ability to manipulate their own mystical energies, such as: astral projection, hypnosis, mental domination and telepathy.

Exocentric is the most advanced form of magic that draws upon forces from dimensions outside our own. Only very experienced sorcerers are able to communicate with powerful mystical beings that inhabit these “other dimensions” and appeal to them for assistance or aid.

In your example, the Sons of Sattanish called up Sattanish for additional power in order to kill Dr. Strange, so in this way (Exocentric magic) they could summon the Rings of Negativistic or Nihilistic force to assault him, but Dr. Strange's counter-spells did dispell or negate such rings by invoking the seven bands of Cyttorak and the dark-souled demons of Denak. Even one of Satannish’s power items, the Satan-Sphere, was destroyed by such incantations (although it was subsequently repaired by them).

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@zorn_a_rust_red_scythe said:

Yea...

Also, that Journey Into Mystery scan being used as evidence of power rankings is really...off.

We're supposed to believe that Blackheart, a guy who has trouble with Wolverine and Daredevil, the offspring of a mere hell lord, is more powerful than the likes of Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath? lol ok

I ask you in what scan appears what you said, because in Journey into Mystery#627 such thing was not mentioned.

@laylah said:

I always laugh when they use the Devil's Advocacy as one supposed proof for Cyttorak's power.

As any Mephisto’s sarcasm there is a hidden intention of praising the truth so he dared to say that Cyttorak is the closest candidate to be the true Satan above all of them.