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Kangconquers

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@kevd4wg said:

@kangconquers: I honestly think that run is Starlins Peak in terms of storytelling(though admittedly dragged down by some of the dated dialogue)

Did you consider Ultron for this list? I really like he and Warlocks dynamic the few times theyve been together.

I did, actually. The thing is, that was in a Guardians of the Galaxy story, and that's kind of a slippery slope for these solo character lists. Once you decide to do that, then you have to look at (for example) putting Kang and Ultron on Captain America's villains list, and it loses the point, which is to be primarily villains that characters fought in their solo comics. So I decided against it.

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Kangconquers

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@kevd4wg: Agreed. I love Starlin’s 1970s run in particular.

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@kevd4wg said:

@kangconquers:

Knull was the main antagonist of the only Silver Surfer book of the last 4 years. I'm a little confused how Knull, the main villain of a 5 issue Silver Surfer Mini series is less worthy than Ravenous, one of 6 villains in a 4 issue Silver Surfer mini-series. Neither ever appeared outside of that mini, and the Knull mini actually changed the direction of the Silver Surfer character. I'm open to your feedback, but it sounds like you're falling back on personal taste.

Knull was certainly a great antagonist for Black, but like how you mentioned Mephisto has a strong relationship with other characters, Surfer is obviously not anywhere near Knull's primary antagonist. And I would argue that for one, Ravenous was the main enemy of Annihilation: Silver Surfer(It's hard for me to really call Annihilus a "Surfer enemy" considering I can't even recall a time they've actually met) and that Annihilation Silver Surfer had at least as large an impact on Surfer as Silver Surfer: Black if not more. I don't necessarily think Ravenous should be higher, just not 10 spots lower. Like you said though, this is definitely a personal taste thing.

Mephisto doesn't have the palpable connection to the Surfer that Galactus has, though honestly, when I hit the button on this list the first time, Thanos was #1 and I went back and changed it.

Yeah it's hard for all of Surfer's top 3 since they're all very clearly connected to Surfer, but also moreso connected to other characters. I mean obviously Thanos is a huge Surfer villain... but Warlock is his main foe, and then Galactus is basically a Marvel Universe antagonist.

Galactus isn't a clear villain, but he is the most linked opositional force that uprooted Norin Rad's life. Despite his nobility, Silver Surfer's history isn't that of a clear-cut superhero. And it makes sense that his number one villain is also a shade of grey. Galactus is his god, his surrogate father, and the destroyer of his normal.

Absolutely fair. If I made my own villains list for Surfer and included Galactus, he would be #1, but at the same time, it's just so weird calling him a villain within Surfer books because he operates that a 1/3 of the time he appears at most I would say. It's certainly a shade of grey there, kinda a similar relationship to where like Thor and Loki are at at this point.

Mephisto meanwhile, has the exact same relationship with Surfer as he does with Thor, and has a more palpable connection to Ghost Rider, and even in a sense, Tony Stark and Hawkeye. There's nothing about the Mephisto relationship that screams "Arch-enemy" to me, but the top 3 is all arguable, and no one else was considered for the top 3.

I would say at the very least Surfer and Mephisto have a more direct enemy ship than Thor and Mephisto, especially since Mephisto was the primary enemy of Surfer's series. I understand his placement, but at the same time when I think of Surfer's arch-enemy, I do think of Mephisto.

Honestly, more than the Kree, I feel like I screwed The Champion of the Universe, The Collector, The Runner, and The Grandmaster by doing general Elders of the Universe. That said, when I collected the data, I had 9 representatives of the Elders of the Universe, about 6-7 of the Kree Empire, and 5-6 of the Skrull Empire. It seemed prudent to lump them all together, rather than to have a top 25 that was 65% characters from a single story arc (Kree/Skrull War 2.)

Yeah that definitely makes sense, though I personally like the Kree/Skrull characters a lot more than Champions of the universe, so I'm a bit more sad by their omission.

Honestly I'm just glad there's no Uni Lord

I almost considered Uni-Lord, just because of the amount of print given to him, but decided against it. As far as I'm concerned, the Surfer comic ended when Ron Marz left and puttered to a slow death in 1998, long after it was ready to die.

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@kevd4wg said:
@kangconquers said:
@kevd4wg said:

Huh some interesting stuff on here. Some stuff that stood out to me

  1. How low Ravenous and Terrax is
  2. How high Knull is
  3. Mephisto not being number 1

Interestingly it's hard for me to consider Galactus a villain to Silver Surfer. To me he's more of a supporting character than anything else. I know you group in the particular skrulls/kree with the races as a whole, but it's just weird to see a Silver Surfer villains list without Ronan or Super-Skrull.

Also to address the Terrax issue, since I failed to do so in the previous post, every character ranked above him has been a central villain in a Silver Surfer story arc. Terrax lacks that distinction, and thus was penalized for it.

That makes sense as a lower placement. He just comes to mind sooner to me due to being a more re-accuring presence.

I too, was surprised at how little actual Terrax vs Silver Surfer action there is in the 148 issues of Silver Surfer Volume 3 (The only volume of the comic that extended beyond 20 issues.) Terrax fights Surfer 3 times in that run.

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@kevd4wg said:

Huh some interesting stuff on here. Some stuff that stood out to me

  1. How low Ravenous and Terrax is
  2. How high Knull is
  3. Mephisto not being number 1

Interestingly it's hard for me to consider Galactus a villain to Silver Surfer. To me he's more of a supporting character than anything else. I know you group in the particular skrulls/kree with the races as a whole, but it's just weird to see a Silver Surfer villains list without Ronan or Super-Skrull.

Also to address the Terrax issue, since I failed to do so in the previous post, every character ranked above him has been a central villain in a Silver Surfer story arc. Terrax lacks that distinction, and thus was penalized for it.

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Kangconquers

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@kevd4wg said:

Huh some interesting stuff on here. Some stuff that stood out to me

  1. How low Ravenous and Terrax is
  2. How high Knull is
  3. Mephisto not being number 1

Interestingly it's hard for me to consider Galactus a villain to Silver Surfer. To me he's more of a supporting character than anything else. I know you group in the particular skrulls/kree with the races as a whole, but it's just weird to see a Silver Surfer villains list without Ronan or Super-Skrull.


Knull was the main antagonist of the only Silver Surfer book of the last 4 years. I'm a little confused how Knull, the main villain of a 5 issue Silver Surfer Mini series is less worthy than Ravenous, one of 6 villains in a 4 issue Silver Surfer mini-series. Neither ever appeared outside of that mini, and the Knull mini actually changed the direction of the Silver Surfer character. I'm open to your feedback, but it sounds like you're falling back on personal taste.

Mephisto doesn't have the palpable connection to the Surfer that Galactus has, though honestly, when I hit the button on this list the first time, Thanos was #1 and I went back and changed it.

Galactus isn't a clear villain, but he is the most linked opositional force that uprooted Norin Rad's life. Despite his nobility, Silver Surfer's history isn't that of a clear-cut superhero. And it makes sense that his number one villain is also a shade of grey. Galactus is his god, his surrogate father, and the destroyer of his normal.

Mephisto meanwhile, has the exact same relationship with Surfer as he does with Thor, and has a more palpable connection to Ghost Rider, and even in a sense, Tony Stark and Hawkeye. There's nothing about the Mephisto relationship that screams "Arch-enemy" to me, but the top 3 is all arguable, and no one else was considered for the top 3.

Honestly, more than the Kree, I feel like I screwed The Champion of the Universe, The Collector, The Runner, and The Grandmaster by doing general Elders of the Universe. That said, when I collected the data, I had 9 representatives of the Elders of the Universe, about 6-7 of the Kree Empire, and 5-6 of the Skrull Empire. It seemed prudent to lump them all together, rather than to have a top 25 that was 65% characters from a single story arc (Kree/Skrull War 2.)

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@kangconquers: I think Lizard or Mysterio would be above him. Maybe Kraven too, but that's just my list.

Fair enough. Kraven is the villain in my favorite Spider-Man story. The problem is that's just one story. I also love the Lizard for his pathos, and enjoy Mysterio. I just feel like unlike the characters in my top 5, there was never a run where Lizard, Mysterio or Kraven was the top Spider-Man villain.

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@noobmaster2001 said:

@kangconquers: Nice, honestly though while he has caused problems for Peter in the past, I don't think he's a top 3 villain. This is your list and if you value plotters/smart villains over regular villains than that's fine. I just think he's had a far bigger impact on Daredevil than Spider-man and I think he's seen as more of a Daredevil villain than Spidey's nowadays. He has had more appearances than guys like Norman or Ock, but still.

I addressed that though. I don't care if someone is seen more as an X's villain than Y's. Doctor Doom is my #6 Avengers villain and Norman Osborn is my #7 because I believe they have earned those spots, even though they're mostly Fantastic Four and Spider-Man villains. I don't consider that a valid argument. Kingpin Daredevil's archenemy, but he's also a top villain of Spider-Man and Punisher and should be ranked as such.

So who would you argue should be above him? And where would you rank him?

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@noobmaster2001 said:

Cool list. Although why is Kingpin and Carnage so high? Is this list personal?

Kingpin has opposed Spider-Man in more issues than any other member of his rogues gallery. 125 raw appearances (non-flashbacks.) That's 4 more than Osborn, 9 more than Doc Ock, double the number of times Electro, Mysterio, Sandman, and Lizard, and triple the number of times Carnage, Venom, Kraven and the Hobgoblin. He also served as a top antagonist for much of the late 60s and late 80s. His body of work as a Spider-Man villain is huge.

Kingpin is also a mastermind, not a bank robber, not a low level psychopath. He's a villain of class and sophistication. A Man behind the man in many Spidey stories. In Avengers terms, many of Spider-Mans villains are Masters of Evil Henchmen, where as the Kingpin is a Kang or Ultron. I tend to rate intelligent, probing, masterminds higher than one-dimensional villains.

On top of that, he was the one who set off the events of brand new day, changing the direction of Spider-Man's life in a way that only Green Goblin has. His assassination attempt on Peter, which put Aunt May in the hospital, is the storyline reason Peter had to sell his marriage to Mephisto (obviously, the meta-reason is Quesada, but I can't put him on a villain list, can I?)

The only reason Kingpin ever scores lower than top 3 is because people associate him more with Daredevil, and I don't dock villains points for multiple associations. I've charted out some of these lists, and the same way Thanos makes every cosmic hero's top 5, the Kingpin is present in nearly every Street Level list I'll be rolling out.

Carnage is #5 because he is far and away, the biggest headlining villain in Spider-Man. He has been the main villain of multiple crossover events, giant merchandise runs (video games, t-shirts, coffee mugs.) I was born in 1984, and couldn't escape Carnage Mania for most of my childhood.

On top of that, Carnage is like a Street Level Thanos. The team buster all Street Level heroes have to come together to defeat. Other than possibly Morlun, I'd say Carnage is Spider-Man's most powerful and dangerous foe by a large margin.

I guess talking about the 3 and 5, I should probably address the #4 listing of Venom, who would often be a 3 at worst, 1 or 2 at best. Eddie Brock Venom has fought Spider-Man surprisingly few times. Roughly half of their issues together are team-ups together, and much of Venom's status as a character actually comes from being the biggest villain ever to spin-off as an anti-hero, which to me, doesn't chart as well on a villains list.

Hope that clears things up.

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Mephisto should be high on the list.

If I started counting every major villain from an Avengers book for every major Avenger, these lists would never get made. This is based on Hawkeye's solo books and mini-series.