I believe that there is no intention of logic behind these costumes. They simply draw the attention of the opposite sex. Yes, people do make a good point that this is all fiction, and that superpowers are also ridiculous concepts. However, superpowers are necessary aspects of superhero stories (most of the time). Skimpy costumes are not necessary. It would make much more sense for female superheroes to dress a lot like male superheroes. Fully covering, protective costumes would be much more fitting for those heroes, but those characters would lose some of their sexual apeal. Still, if female characters wore well-covering outfits, I would be just as interested in their stories. I believe that many other people would as well
JoshuaDBr's forum posts
@krleavenger said:
@apex_pretador: I may post scans but firstI want to check out your post.
@apex_pretador said:
Usually the first and foremost argument for superman is his superior combat speed. I have no doubt, not even slightest, that he has the advantage here, but it is not like Superman vs deathstroke. Bill can keep up, even if not evenly, he can still fight back. He has felt milliseconds like hours, has percieved Silver Surfer at multi-lightspeed, he has fought surfer in hyperspace. It is obvious that he can operate at "superspeed".
Agree. He also dodged lasers that could hit him while he was traveling FTL so logically those lasers are FTL as well and he still dodged them while traveling.
Now coming to strength, there is not much. He has escaped black hole's pull and lifted Asgard with the help from thor. He should be around Thor level, which is below clark.
Again, you are right.
Striking strength is where things get interesting. Bill has planet-busted. Superman's best striking feat is barely able to destroy moon after a build up and ending up KO'd. However, it is notable that he once destroyed a portion of moon without even directly hitting it. So, while Superman usually operates in the range of sub-moonbusting at his best, Bill at his best hits much harder. While both of them will hold back initially, Bill has much looser morals in the battlefield and won't hesitate going all out as soon as they exchange the very first hits.
This is the one I want to address. Clark was KOed because he unleashed way greater force than usual as he was vibrating below light speed and was traveling at the Moon with that same speed which increased his striking power by a lot. He was KOed because of great force and Clark can tank greater damage than destroyed Moon. Other instanc eyou are talking about, yeah he punched the Black Racer who tried to take Steel and the shockwaves of that strike cracked more than 50% of the Moon. It did not fully destroy it but it is just a shockwave. Imagine what a real punch would do. Clark was also stated to be Moonbuster more than once.
Versatility is pretty clear. Superman has nothing but better flight and eye lasers. Bill has multitude of abilities which he consistently uses, including energy manipulation. He also has a range advantage.
True but most of Bill's versatility is useless and can only help him defend against Heat Vision and strike him with lightning or energy manipulation. Clark is too fast and skilled for Bill to try and do stuff like weather manipulation.
When it comes to durability, Bill has shown to survive things like planet destruction. I know superman has also shown to tank that without scratch, but that is going into his highest end feats. Martian manhunter, an equal of clark's strength and slightly inferior in striking strength, has hurt him without much issue. Captain marvel was able to knock out Superman after 3 direct hits (I know superman didn't fight back and Bill's hammer is also magical in power). Bill who hits exponentially harder would have no issue knocking Superman out.
This is flawed logic. Clark tanked Planetary Explosions more than once, just like Bill. Mostly all his foes like Lobo, Mongul, Bizzaro and so on failed to hurt him. Tanking planetary explosions is not a high end feat. Clark's high end feats are tanking Super Novas while being weakened. Not only Clark has zero low showings to prove those feats are high end feats after his training with Mongul (which unleashed his true potential and power) but he has even higher showing which is actual high end showing. Besides of the fact that Clark tanked planetary explosions consistently. He consistently tanked Omega Beams which KOed Top Tier Powerhouses, no sell blasts that one shotted Wonder Woman, survived a Super Nova (he was KOed but he survived) and took almost zero damage after put in sandwich of Zero genesis and Apokolips.
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Captain Marvel? You are aware Superman is vulnerable to magic? When Billy punched him he charged his fist with lightning of Zeus. When he KOed him Billy himself said "I got lucky, Superman is vulnerable to magic". MMH? That same MMH hurt Superboy Prime when he decided to stop jobbing. Either way, Bill has damage output to hurt Clark, especially because of his vulnerability to magic but Bill is not more durable than Clark and Clark can tank his blows.
Superman on the other hand, would be hard pressed to even keep bill on hurting. Bill has shown amazing durability, consistently surviving direct hits which are capable of planet busting, like against mad Thor, and direct bullrushes into planets as well as planets exploding on him many times.
He tanked blows from Warrior Madness Thor without Mjolnir pretty good. But once Thor used Mjolnir, Bill was taken down pretty easily. Thousand Moon busting punches in seconds will hurt Bill. Clark loves to bullrush as well while punching at the same time. Eventually Bill will fall. Clark is also more skilled and more tactican fighter than Bill. Of course, this is one scenario and I am not saying who would win. I don't even know, this is the most even match I have ever seen since Batman vs Captain America. I'm only countering some stuff I see in your post that are wrong in my opinion.
Even if Superman lands 10 hits for every 1 hit bill lands, bill would do more damage, as planet >>> moon.
Again this logic does not really work. If Hulk and Thor fight the same way Clark fought Doomsday, Hulk will win besides of the fact that Thor has better striking power. Why? Because Hulk can tank planet busting punches better than Thor can tank planet shaking punches. Bill's striking Power > Clark's is inferior. I personally think Clark is a bit more durable than Bill but that does not matter because I think the gap between Clark's durability and Bill's is lower than the gap between their striking power in which Bill has the advantage. Even tho Clark is a little but faster and more skilled and tactical fighter, Bill is fast enough to keep up.
@lvenger said:
I missed my chance to debate for Superman in the Superman vs Sinestro BOW, glad I can make up for it this time round.
Strength
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- 1-3: Stops a 70 mile ship moving so fast that it could split the planet's core and mantle.
- 4-5: Casually tosses a cruise ship away for miles and forces Captain Marvel to exert himself to stop it.
- 6-7: Casually lifts a mountain sized rock to contain Mount Kamehameha from erupting.
- 8: Blocks Wonder Woman's killstroke on Mongul.
- 9-10: Blocks Doomsday's punch.
Last 3 are Superman's blocking physical strength to show how he does have a chance of blocking one of Bill's hammer blows like that infamous moment from the JLA/Avengers crossover.
Striking Power
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- Batman with Superman's powers backhands Wonder Woman from the moon to the Earth.
- One shots Earth Man who had all of the Legion of Superheroes' powers.
- One shots a giant alien ship.
- One shots John Stewarts' construct with a full force punch.
- One shots Gor, a Kryptonian soldier.
- One shots a giant meteor that would have been a major threat to Earth.
- A younger Superman one shots Grundy with a blitz attack.
- 3 shots Mongul Jnr.
Although Bill has the clear edge in striking power, Superman definitely hits hard enough to hurt Bill in the current battlefield environment.
Durability
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- 1-3: Shrugs off a 10 megaton explosion without a scratch.
- 4-6: Tanks a hit from the Claw of Horus which essentially hit him with the force of the planet and fakes unconsciousness to blindside Hawkman and Captain Marvel.
- 7-11: Tanks being hit to the moon by blunt force vastly more powerful than the force needed for human made rockets to travel to the moon.
- 12-13: Survives an explosion equivalent to 100 million nukes at a weaker power level than his Pre Flashpoint peak.
- 14-17: Tanks a hit that sent him from Metropolis to Tokyo.
- 18-20: Tanks a punch that sent him from California to China.
- 21: Tanks a punch from himself in Bizarro's body that sent him through the Earth.
Durability is a major advantage for Superman just as Bill's striking power is to him except Superman's high resistance against blunt force and energy based attacks is the perfect counter to Bill's hard hitting battle style.
Combat Speed
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- 1: Blitzes Doomsday 4,035 times in a matter of instants.
- 2-3: Blitzes Amazo in less than a three tenths of a second.
- 4: Blitzes Doomsday in a multi hit after image combo.
- 5: Blitzes Ultraman with pressure points.
- 6: Blitzes Encandora and her goons in less than 3 seconds before her synapses fire.
- 7: Fights at hypersonic speeds.
- 8-9: Blitzes a ship travelling at extra saturated lightspeeds targeting its engine system.
- 10: Blitzes Tempest before he can even react.
- 11: Blitzes Maxima.
- 12-13: Casually evades Mongul leaving superspeed after images.
- 14: Blitzes Wonder Woman.
Even granting Bill doesn't share in his predecessor's horrible track record against getting speed blitzed, Bill's limited speed feats are not nearly equal to Superman's faster and consistent use of combat speed. Bill is still outmatched when it comes to fighting at high speeds.
Reaction Time
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- 1: Traces the lightspeed signals of a Kryptonian battleship.
- 2: Recognises Barry Allen and Wally West when travelling at lightspeed
- 3: Catches a bullet at point blank range.
- 4-5: Perceives lightning travelling in slow motion (appropriate) and reacts in time to save Jimmy from Livewire's electric blast.
- 6-7: Two microsecond reaction feats.
- 8-10: Reacts in a nanosecond to get a baby inside his Fortress before it causes an energy explosion.
- 11-12: A younger Superman reacts to Vorx energy laser weapons which travel at near light speeds.
- 13: Accelerates his perceptions and speed to hypersonic.
- 14: Tags Professor Zoom
Bill has a few reaction feats I'm aware of but he is not nearly as consistent at applying these speeds under regular combat scenarios for a majority of his fights. Thus whoever is quicker to react can make a crucial difference in this fight.
Energy Projection
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- 1-2: Freezes a giant moth creature.
- 3: Incapacitates Bizarro with heat vision and freeze breath.
- 4: Freeze breath pellets push Darkseid back.
- 5: Freezes Brainiac.
- 6-7: Heat vision pins Doomsday down and can be felt from blocks away.
- 8-9: Destroys a forcefield that Supergirl and John Stewart combined couldn't breach.
- 10: Blasts through Imperiex Probe.
- 11-12: Heat vision measured at nuclear level heat.
It's unlikely heat vision will have an effect on Bill's star level heat resistance and that Bill's storm and energy blasts provide him with superior energy output but this category is not a total loss for Superman.
Versatility
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- 1-2: Heat vision trickshots, one deflect shot, the other fired from high up in the sky.
- 3-8: Uses all his powers in combination against Mongul and an Imperiex Probe.
- 9-13: 4 uses of thunderclaps.
- 14-19: 3 uses of whirlwinds, including one at 200 miles a minute, one that destroyed an Imperiex construct and one that affected Captain Atom, Power Girl, Major Force, John Stewart and Starfire.
Here versatility is not just what different powers you have but how you use and apply them in combat as well. Bill hasn't fought someone who can multi task effectively in combat and the ways in which Superman can apply his powers in battle are a tesament to his superior experience. Speaking of which...
Combat Skill/Tactical Experience
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- 1-2: Calculates Shrapnel's melting point mid battle.
- 3-6: 3 instances of Superman using pressure points on super powered opponents.
- 7-10: Leads a group of old gods into a steelworks where the iron weakens them.
- 11-12: Strategically takes out a group of villains by using the environment and his sensory knowledge.
- 13-15: Divides Bizarro and Mongul to take them out seperately.
- 16-17: Uses his experience and fighting skill against Paragon who had copied and amplified Superman's powers.
- 18-19: Two more pressure points usage.
So Superman is not only powerful but he can be pretty smart and cunning at using on the fly tactics to adapt to who he is facing. Bill hasn't shown comparable strategic thinking to my knowledge.
Why both will be holding back
I think it's necessary to counter a certain predisposition of thinking when it comes to Beta Ray Bill regarding his more lax morals and less holding back. Superman obviously holds back in character but Bill is guilty of the same sin. This fight takes place in a city and Bill has clearly held back in New York City when he fought Red Hulk.
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Unless this shows Bill struggling with Red Hulk, BRB was holding back so his full power didn't wreck the city. And as for Bill destroying inhabited planets, that too is false. Even when Bill was destroying planets before Galactus got to them, he removed the denizens of the planet first.
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If the battle stays in the city, or even planetside, neither Bill nor Superman are going to be busting out their moon busting or planet busting blows. The difference between them though is that Superman's powerset works more effectively than Bill's does holding back and even assuming Bill doesn't hold back, Superman can tank his best blows and inflict damage on Bill in return. That's why I favour Superman over Bill for a majority.
After reading these two posts, I can see a lot that Superman has in his advantage. His speed is obviously one of his biggest advantages. What I do believe really gives Bill an advantage are his magical abilities and Superman's vulnerability to magic. Because of this, I am unsure of who I think will win. I could vote for Superman just because I love the character, but I don't want to do that.
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