JKBart

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Death is the only release humanity will ever know

~JKBart, 2013

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@thevivas: daaamn, bro, I'm so happy to see you still maintaining this after all these years <3

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#5  Edited By JKBart

Openers

JC77's opener was really easy to shoot down. Kyle's fight against Caedus went leagues better than Fisto's fight against Sidious. Adhering to popular opinion that Sidious > Caedus > hindered Caedus would make it easy, but to be honest, i do not find it that supremely convincing on its own. JC77 needed to include just few lines and some basic demonstration on why Sidious is leagues above Caedus, thus (in his opinion) Kit resisting bunch of strikes in presence of Windu > Kyle resisting far more and putting far more of a fight against hindered Caedus. Fisto had the backup of Windu, Kyle had the backup of Valin and 2 other guys; comparing these 3 to Windu would be really, really hard. Honestly, JC77's idea of Caedus fight-Sidious fight comparison was just so easy to attack at so angles. However, MP did basically nothing to circumvent this idea of comparison, he basically allowed this thing to pass, which was suicidal. To use Fisto's performance against Kyle was quite a risky idea from JC77, and I believe I could shut it down easily. However, the risk paid off, and the comparison received barely any counter-argument. For that, props to JC77. He scores the point here. He made a risky notion that could be attacked in many ways, and he would not be able to defend this argument from revered debaters, but here, it passed, and it granted JC77 TREMENDOUS ground. Kenobi comparison was also very good.

All things were constructed clearly, with clear logical constructs, simplicity, no cross-era scalings. Nothing here was connecting more dots, than any writer would try to include. Really well done.

MP slipped in many places, really. If your goal is to defend Kyle here, you should strive for the positive interpretation, especially when no other context is added. Writing stuff like this:

To be fair, this may also have to do with Katarn’s reputation more than his actual skill, and Caedus may have been concerned about his performance whilst injured, considering Katarn’s backup. Regardless, Katarn’s feats are far more impressive than Fisto’s, as we will delve into now.

doesn't really serve your point. Bad move.

However, using Desann was simple, clear and concise. It really helped MP's case. Clear and logical notions are always the best, and it was constructed too easily to be anything but a gain.

This is what comes from the first posts.

JC77's response

> Given the PT is factually the prime of the Jedi, Fisto's standing in that era is better than Katarn's in the NJO era.

This was a really good point from JC77.

#EDIT for Ant:

This is a very simple and clear logic: "one of the best in PT > one of the best in NJO", because PT > NJO. It's a simple concept, and one that every reader shall get, even if going more in-depth and giving it more thought this point is killed. But MP didn't go in-depth that well; worth noting, it's actually the case in lots of place shere, lol. Many things written are simple, and their obvious logic really gets to the reader, even if they could be easily debunked, but weren't.

> While the latter is true, the former less so. Absolutely nowhere does Luke suggest Kyp and Katarn share parity, merely that they are both master swordsman and that Viun "might" share parity to either of them.

Really reat point from JC77. Going beyond the bland, far too literal interpretation of the quote that's really vague for more careful readers.

> Beating a bunch of fodder Dark Jedi, even vastly before his prime is supposed to impress me?

Somewhat of a slip. Kyle was basically tutored as much as ANH Luke at this stage. Even saying "vastly insanely grossly pre-prime Kyle" isn't enough here.

> These feats are decent but don't stack up to being superior to AOTC Kenobi or beating an admittedly handicapped Grievous (link).

This is a part I wouldn't agree about, since Kyle at this stage had close to zero training, and it would be easy to attack this line of thinking again.

> Which is all very well and fine but you haven't exactly provided anything for Sariss beyond a relatively decent accolade to establish why it's impressive or why it is as good as Fisto's performances against Kenobi and Grievous. The only thing that makes Katarn beating the fodder even remotely impressive is his lack of experience with a blade but even then these feats are hardly worth noting in comparison to Fisto's. Beating fodder, even while at noob tier can only carry you so far.

Discounting Kyle's near-zero training back then, obviously a good point regarding Sariss.

Then JC77 counters with predictable things about Luke being an insane jobber. Obvious point, but also obviously good without a proper response.

MP's response

> Qu Rahn fears her. Why is this important? Rahn was made a Jedi Master, a title Yoda doesn’t give lightly, as we know from the events of ESB and RotJ. Traditionally, the role is only given once a Jedi Knight has trained a number of Padawans to knighthood.

This part is an obviously weak argument. It doesn't refer to anything skill-related in the slightest.

Good point on Desann flat-out doing his stuff before Luke reacted, and penetrating his barrier mid-fight. With somebody as insanely powerful as Luke, it obviously instantly puts Desann in a high tier; you can't really debunk that saying Luke wasn't paying attention, it was straight up 1v1 combat. Even if Desann just got extremely lucky, he still did it.

Good point about surviving the VotJ blast. After all previous VotJ things, it's really a good argument.

> Here, despite having fought through an army of Imperials and Dark Jedi, plus defeating Desann in what is described as a “furious” duel, he casually jumps a significant height; note this is massively pre-prime:

This one obviously isn't. Come on, it's a goddamn JUMP.

Mental attack resisting is nice, but it really doesn't add to constructing a coherent, constructed argument. It's just offtopic at this point, not providing anything to the argument.

So while nearly all the points on Desann were good here, others had large mistakes, or were just offtopic, or didn't really construct a cohesive, strict reasoning. Thing about VotJ blasts was good, many others were, but what was missing here, was explaining WHAT comes from it. HOW does Kyle's inhuman resistance to extremely powerful Force blast compare to Kit. Nearly every new idea introduced in here wasn't used to Kyle-Kit comparison.

What it really missed, was going more in-depth about how Kyle was a complete nobody. Kyle's feats from Dark Forces suddenly look impressive when you realize this guy had zero training, zero preparation, and is just a guy who discovered he is a Force user, had some lessons from a bunch of ghosts and went on to kick ass. He was the equivalent of ANH Luke ffs, it was so easy to capitalize on this!

This post was full of wasted opportunities, and things not used to build a coherent structure. Half of the post didn't even regard direct comparisons and was just designed to make random feats look good, but without cross-comparing it to anything regarding the debate!

JC77's response

JC77 easily destroyed things about Jerec's Dark Jedi here. No contest.

Response on Kit vs. Grievous stuff was really good as well.

Obi-Wan stuff, same.

JC77 didn't really try to respond on the fact that, no matter how much Luke was holding back, jobbing and whatnot, holding back and jobbing doesn't really allow someone to break your barrier. No real reason for Luke jobbing here was made, just "Luke jobs as usual". "And yet we've established Luke is too inconsistent to scale from, Des may as well have ragdolled a featless force user." is just plainly a weak argument. I may have my own ides on why Luke could job here or be distracted. Easy to prove with so many more detailed examples of Luke jobbing. But JC77 didn't really put much effort here. MP's point remains unmoved.

Further points from MP were weak and JC77 soldified it. Maybe he didn't shut it down as hard as I think would be possible, but either way he easily decimated those weak arguments.

MP's response

Both sides already went so hard on the Viun Gaalan-related accolade, that at this point this line simply does not really serve either side. It was made too vague, it is really hard at this point to judge who is right. Both sides have good arguments and it's down to one's personal opinion at this point. This is a triumph for JC77, since it was used by MP to serve his case.

> Rahn blocking a few of Sariss’ moves doesn’t automatically prove that he has an “irrational fear”. There’s no grounds for that. Rahn specifically says that he fears Sariss, and Jedi Masters don’t say these things lightly/offhand. We must also consider that this Rahn with no reservations; he’s inadvertently given Jerec information on how to find the VotJ and has, in his eyes, become the very thing he despises, and therefore could be stated as arguably being in his best combative state, since he resolves to fight to the death. From this standpoint, an “amped” Rahn deflecting a number of blows from Sariss means absolutely nothing for your argument. Force Ghost Rahn still says that he fears her, you can’t get around that.

This is really good. Logical, obvious observation based on just normal people thinking. Such stuff will probably always get me. It resolves around the characters depicted and their thinking, and does it right.

> This is just stupid. Kenobi and Anakin have extended personal fights with just one magnaguard each in RotS, this doesn’t mean Vebb is better than either of them, considering in TCW he takes on five of them simultaneously. Clearly the showings are inconsistent and therefore highly unreliable to be used in scaling. Your argument is therefore completely moot.

Good argument based on stuff coming from the same era.

Good responses on Grievous stuff. I personally would not say MP was fully right in here, but his responses correctly regarded what JC77 mentioned, were strictly on subject, and demonstrated an opposite line of thought with logical basis.

Finishers

I won't be regarding the finishers much. They were just summarizing the points already done. Some good ideas were written there, but not really affecting the outcome, and given I've been writing this post for so long, you will probably forgive me for passing on larger comments on it. Both sides summarized their stances really well, without any blunders.

Vote

In the end, my vote goes to @jacensolo77.

MP sometimes had a bunch of really good arguments, that JC77 responded to casually. If MP followed on with them, he could easily force JC77 to ground. He put lots of good stuff, but didn't analyse it as properly as they deserved. I basically had to fill in lots of the blanks in my head, and it's not how those things should work. Lots of things were really impressive for me, as an experienced debater myself, but lacked further study.

- Kyle being a total nobody with zero real training at the time DF took place, providing some basic reasoning for how insanely he had to level up beyond that in future years.

- Kyle had lots of great Force feats - but MP didn't really try to compare Kyle to Kit in that regard, and thus failed terribly, putting random, not really inter-connected stuff in the end.

- He defended Jerec's Dark Jedi really well for how weak his argument was at the beginning. Jerec's Dark Jedi required only some demonstration of the Force powers they demonstrated, lots of them rare, hard, and presenting power/mastery output sometimes beyond that of Fisto. MP had great ground here, but really wasted it. Started off weak, and then defended the weak arguments.

- Grievous debate was really good on MP's part, tho given how much he could pull off with it, it was really subpar. MP's responses to JC77's points were great, strict and logical, but he didn't come up with lots of his own ideas, and he really could. The material just asked for it.

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JKBart

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Luke prevails, great fight.

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#9  Edited By JKBart

@i_like_swords: Nothing in the text ever implies his TK in combat has anything to do with Vong biotech command, lol. Worldship is another thing.

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