I asked Greg Pak if he could clarify the notion that hitting WB levels is lethal to Hulk. Pak Tweeted back some good news (dated 02/15/2013). Seems like a good fit for Hulk's appreciation thread.
@simon_the_digger: it's debatable. In the comics he was standing on a floating rock after the explosion and umar said he wished for the others to come back to life, and it wouldn't make sense for himself to come back to life way before everyone else did if he really did die.
However after a fan asked pak not too long ago he said he thinks hulk died and came back to life but he didn't really remember properly.
So it's either what the comic seems to show or a hazy statement from pak a few years after he left the book.
Howdy bud. I've been meaning to post this on the Hulk boards. I asked Greg Pak this exact question, and here was his reply to me:
Could have sworn Juggs was more or less immune to physical harm.
He is. The only sure-fire things that can harm him are magic attacks and psionic force. A few other tactics have had varying effect, mostly ones that find a way to somehow target his brain while skirting around his durability (such as when Nimrod used a specific sonic frequency to scramble his brain signals; that kind of one-off stuff).
I'm a fan of Supes, but if you take away BFR, his options are very limited. He cannot beat down Juggs. His heat vision would be pretty useless against him. He cannot BFR him (I assume this also means no containment tactics?). His speed will draw the fight out, but it will not resolve it. What are Superman's win conditions here?
Honestly, Cain should win this eventually.Cain's strikes will occasionally land, and they will slowly start to add up (show me a single match were Superman plays "Flash" against a like powered brick for hours on end without eating a punch and I'll retract that).
I see Clark trying to fight him straight up at first, and eating some moderate damage before he realizes he may be in trouble. Then I see Clark dodging and weaving for a while, trying out some heat vision, super breath, and cold air tactics to no avail. Clark would "dial it up" and push himself to see if he can break past Cain's durability. That would, in turn, eat up Clark's stamina. Superman does not have infinite stamina. Very high, yes. Infinite? No. Eventually he will tank out. Yes it will take a while (no one needs to post the pic of Clark bench pressing all day, I know that he has very stamina when he paces himself), but at a "dial it up" pace, eventually he will start to tire out. Wounds will start to add up. By contrast, Cain will never tire. Wounds will not mount up on him. He will be as fresh in 2 days as he is at the gate. That counts.
I find it more likely that Supes would try to dive in and win the old fashioned way and simply get K.O.'d by a foe that he wasn't prepped for; but there is also the possibility that Clark would figure things out soon enough to avoid a fatal mistake, and then try to speed his way to victory over the course of who-knows-how-long, until he starts to putter out a bit and Cain gets his mitts on him via lucky grapple; or until the occasional haymaker that Cain lands begins to add up and take its toll. In any case, time is on Cain's side.
I just wanna say this one thing. Juggs would win, simply because Doomsday can't really hurt him. And, yeah, Doomsday cannot be killed by whatever kills him before, but that depends on the type of attack. Doomsday is NOT immune to physical damage.
Adaptive Resistances: Doomsday can also develop/evolve resistances to whatever injures or harms him, which was demonstrated in the Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey series. His shield is among the strongest in the universe. Superman used a sound gun to paralyze Doomsday, but Doomsday's auditory canals simply closed up making him impervious to Superman's weapon. Waverider paralyzed Doomsday once with chronal energy, but the second attempt backlashed on Waverider. In essence, Doomsday can become as invulnerable as he needs to be. Doomsday however has proven incapable of resistance to physical and forceful damage.
Superman was able to knock him out in their 4th encounter, through hand-to-hand combat.
This is made of win. Classic (full powered) Juggernaut would beat Doomsday down. The fight would likely significantly longer than Superman's fight, since Cain lacks the ability to fight at higher speed; but the outcome would be the same IMO. After Juggs beats him down, I imagine DD's evolution would kick in and grant him a form of telepathy, so Round 2 would likely probably go to Doomsday. But a round 1 brawl to K.O.? That's all Cain.
Making these wild claims about gamma burst hurting these two or slowing them down. This is not Cpt cold
It blew up a planet.
You might need to read to comic. Hulk didnt blow up any planet. Red she Hulk and the Hulk combine effort plus they even had the wishing well mystical energies. Some even claim the Red She hulk was amped with no proof. Hulk 630 to 635
The proof is in the pudding (so to speak). Red She-Hulk is roughly on par with normal She-Hulk in power level. We know this because they have tussled, and because Red She-Hulk has tussled with numerous other shared foes to cement her standing on the food chain. She is NOT on par with WWHulk. She is more in the same league with normal She-Hulk. And (way prior to going WB and becoming even stronger), we saw that Hulk was able to 1-shot She-Hulk with ease. She was left struggling to get up and muttering something akin to "...God help us..." after he delivered said 1-shot K.O. to her. It wasn't even close. Pure 100% outclassed.
So how in the world would a "non-amped" Red She-Hulk be capable of going to toe to toe with an even more powerful version of the same Hulk that was able to 1-shot her green counterpart with ease while holding back? And then go on to blow up a planet with him via secondary impact? That would be akin to The Thing suddenly going to toe to toe with Superman and holding his own for the better part of a comic, then destroying DC Earth with via his impact with Clark. That's pretty much impossible based on known power maxims. So of course we assume that either Betty was amped (as implied by the text of HotM that states "...now as powerful as he is..."); or Pak somehow completely forgot that She-Hulk (both Red and Green) is no where near the same power level as the "most powerful" and ticked off version of Hulk that has ever existed. Honestly - which seems more likely to you? Of course we assume she was amped. Nothing else would make sense.
@termiteone4ever: Your statement was half right, it was the force of their blows, however the mystical energies were only strong enough to power the wishes themselves, not anyone who used them. Also, she was amped, she was feeding off his gamma radiation.
I have to disagree with both assessments. The evidence on panel seems to strongly support the notion that energy, not impact, is what dusted these foes. The comic itself does not specify either way, so keeping in mind that all we have to go on is what we see on panel:
1. We know that Hulk's WB bursts do have an escalating destructive element. We saw this during the final panels of WWHulk #5, when his aura first kicked in and started to shred the city. Note that Hulk is not punching or being punched during this sequence, so we know that impact is not causing this effect.
2. We also saw this again during his fight with Arm'Chedon, Banner's burst was charging up, the ground was starting to shred apart, and it was STRONGLY implied that he would break the planet if Umar had not teleported in to pull him away. And Hulk was by his lonesome at that time, thus said planetary destruction could not have been the result of an impact with another character. It was also strongly suggested that he would have "broken the world" at the end of WWHulk when he told Stark to satellite subdue him, and once again - Hulk was standing there by his lonesome at the time, with no dual impact to be seen.
3. During the final moments of his battle with Red She-Hulk in HotM, Hulk is once again shown with an escalating energy aura. This aura grows in intensity just prior to the final explosion and causes the surrounding super foes (Wendigo, Bi-Beast, Arm'Chedon, and Fin Fang Foom) to shield their faces with their hands and pull away from it; which strongly indicates damage force is mounting at this moment.
A moment later (AFTER Betty and him colide, while they are locked up in what appears to be another simple exchange of punches), the foes around them begin to dust and die. This seems evident to me that a destructive aura capable of killing Class 100 foes is at work here. Again - there is no evidence that either Hulk or Betty are suffering the effects of a lethal collision here, but foes are none the less being dusted via their proximity to them.
Then Dr. Strange un-freezes time and the planet explodes killing Betty and the rest of the bunch. That flow of events does not seem to indicate death by secondary sonic shockwave, but it is supported by the events of an incinerating Gamma Burst aura.
4. Prior to the explosion, the proposed shockwaves from Hulk and Betty's punches had ZERO on panel effect on their environment. Even when Fin Fang Foom shot them both with Gamma Bombs causing them to grow to Godzilla like proportions and skyrocketing their physical might, their blows still had no significant affect on their surroundings.
5. (More of a re-cap of the above) - When Dr. Strange froze time to speak with Banner, AFTER the impact of Betty and Hulk had already occurred, you can cleary see both Hulk and Betty pull back fists and prepare for another exchange of blows. Both are alive and perfectly fine at this moment. No impact damage at all on either of them. This is NOT the sign of two beings that are about to die from the impact of leaping into each other. However, you also see them both glowing out the eyes with energy (literally), AND you see Fin Fang Foom turning to dust because he is in close proximity to them. Notice HOW he turns to dust. That is not skin being blown off of the bones. That is burning radiation making the bones show through the skin - very similar to how many comics also portray nuclear explosions and other like powered explosive heat and energy events.
There is no significant evidence on panel to suggest that an exchange of punches would spontaneously create a shockwave capable of dusting the surrounding Class 100 foes, and there is no on panel text to support this notion either. However, the escalating heat and destructive energy aura of emanating Gamma Energy would absolutely fit the bill, and as noted above - the damaging effect of this aura, and it's potential planetary destructiveness, already came with rooted on panel history in text and on panel.
TBH; I have no idea where this notion that a simple collision between Betty Banner (who has never had planetary destruction class feats under her belt) and Hulk would suddenly disintegrate an entire planet along with millions of Mindless Ones, and numerous high powered and Class 100 foes. That seems... odd, to say the least. However, there is ample evidence of a pre-existing damaging aura with obvious planet threatening potential in place. It seems, to me at least, a no-brainer that the bursts are what killed the planet.
every body that a hero that fights Hulk admits they are always holding back because of BANNER. In every what if when they don't care about banner Thor kills him. Thor admits it, Silver surfer admits its it, Strange admits it, Iron man admits it, even Giant man admitted it in the second issue of avengers lol. They all don't fight at full strength and Hulk always fights at full strength and can barely beat a guy like thor.
This is false. Some have held back against Hulk for fear of Banner, but not all and certainly not all the time. Thor, for example, has literally ripped into Hulk while screaming "I'll kill you!" during his Warrior Madness vs. Prof. Hulk/Maestro fight. Hulk did not die; in point of fact he held up the same as he always does. And the villains Hulk has faced, many of whom are right on par with the upper class heroes he has faced, have never really given two scraps about his life. Juggernaut isn't holding back when he tries to rip Hulk's head off. Nor was Gladiator holding back when he tried to burn Hulk's heart out of his chest. This is, and always has been, a flawed argument against Big Green.
And that's Frankenstein that Black Adam ripped the arms off in that pic you posted; Frank is a fun DC hero, but he's also a Mid-Classer that is no where near Hulk's league.
@simon_the_digger: it's debatable. In the comics he was standing on a floating rock after the explosion and umar said he wished for the others to come back to life, and it wouldn't make sense for himself to come back to life way before everyone else did if he really did die.
However after a fan asked pak not too long ago he said he thinks hulk died and came back to life but he didn't really remember properly.
So it's either what the comic seems to show or a hazy statement from pak a few years after he left the book.
I also have scan where Pak replies to my tweet saying Hulk did not die after bursting, but instead just grew crazy strong. Click my profile and look at my earlier posting history for a scan of it. IMHO, Pak just no longer remembers what he wrote in full detail.
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