Comicvine's Deadliest Warrior: Iron Fist vs Spider-man

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Wells its been a while since I've done one of these. I figured I would bring this back. And I figured I would come back and do something a little different than the last couple I did, and instead talk about two characters who are from the same universe rather than different universes. I am going to be talking about Spider-Man vs Iron Fist!

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Conditions

Rules

  • This is 616 Spider-man and 616 Iron Fist.
  • Both have standard gear
  • Both are in character
  • There is no prep time, this is a random encounter
  • Victory can be achieved through any means

Setting

  • They begin 50 feet apart
  • They begin visible
  • Fight takes place in a city at night. Neither combatant is familiar with the city.

Physicals

Now before I begin this section I will be counting iron fist's iron fist in this category since he uses it to amplify his striking. I will talk about some of his other Chi related abilities in the X-factor section but I think it makes sense to discuss the iron fist in this section because that is what he uses for striking. I think it would be misleading to just give Spider-man the advantage in this category without acknowledging Iron Fist's striking potential is far above peak human.

Obviously when it comes to lifting strength Spider-man has the advantage. One character is peak human and the other can lift several tons overhead. Its pretty clear Iron Fist cannot match Spider-man in a contest of strength all though to be fair he probably wouldn't try to. Could lifting strength still prove relevant? Sure I suppose. If they were to accidentally cause a building to collapse and rubble fell on top of the spider-man would have an easier time being able to dig himself out from underneath the rubble. I don't think Spider-man would do something like throw cars at iron fist or would try to hurt him too badly.

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Now as I said above when it comes to striking power I would be counting the iron fist in this category. So can Spider-man with his super strength out damage Iron Fist with his iron fist?

We can see that spider-man can knock out people who are literal giants to him, punch people hard enough where they go flying and he sends nearby cars flying, and can knock scorpion high enough into the air that it takes him seconds to fall back to the ground, and can hit iron man 2020 with enough force where he splits a building in two.

Iron Fist on the other has knocked the hellicarrier out of the sky, caused a temple to collapse in a few punches, destroyed a ship and also destroyed a train. Between the two of them I would say Iron Fist has the advantage when it comes to striking power. His high end feats do seem more impressive. I don't think Spider-man could knock the hellicarrier out of the sky or blow up a train like Iron Fist did.

Both Iron Fist and Spider-man are quite fast as well. We have seen them catch bullets, dodge bullets after they have been fired, we have seen them both move faster than the eye, etc.

However between the two of them which is faster? I would probably go with Spider-man. Similarly to how I am throwing the Iron Fist in this category I will also partially discuss Spider-man's Spider-sense here as well because it does tie into his reaction. As Peter has described in the past it lets him avoid a hit before the person throwing the punch starts punching.

We can talk about the raw combat speed but I think Spider-sense means Peter will always be able to out-react Iron Fist if he is on his A-game. This is something Iron Fist himself has actually talked about in the past.

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Another reason I feel Spider-man would have the advantage is the way other super heroes typically do react to him. I don't think there are as many depictions where other super heroes are basically awestruck with Iron Fist's speed in the same way as Spider-man. Admittedly this could be due to the fact that I have read more of Spider-man's appearance's but it does seem like when spider-man does engage other heroes during events he tends to drop there jaw with his speed. Now regarding the paladin example there is a scene a few issues earlier in heroes for hire where Paladin is watching Iron Fist and Iron Fist does vanish on him. But I think that was more of a stealth feat than it was a raw speed feat. Its a pretty common trope for ninja's in comics to ghost even other people with super speed and just appear behind someone like that. We have seen Batman do that to Jay Garrick for example and Batman isn't as fast as Jay Garrick. Plus they did fight, and while Iron fist did beat up Paladin he did get tagged during the fight which shouldn't happen if Iron Fist were fast enough to move faster than he can see. With the Spider-man example we clearly see Peter did use raw speed.

But even putting that aside or assuming Iron Fist does have showings like this I still think Peter would have the advantage due to spider-sense. Another thing that I do think should be noted is Peter is likely more agile as well. Iron Fist's agility is top tier, no doubt, even amazing the likes of daredevil with his agility. However I would argue Spider-man's agility does exceed Daredevils. He can achieve perfect equlibrium from any position possible, and his tendons and connective tissues are also twice as elastic as a regular human which makes him more flexible.

And finally I am going to talk about durability. Both have some pretty impressive durability. I would say the best quantafiable blunt force durability feat Iron Fist has is when he was hit through Rand Tower by The One.

Do I believe this level of durability exceeds Spider-man's striking power? I am going to say no. As I mentioned this is probably the best visual durability feat iron fist so if we compare it to the best quantafiable striking feat Spider-man has it would be punching iron man 2020 through a building. Another point of comparison between The One and Spider-man is how The One was said to have the strength of 50 men whereas Spider-man has casually overpowered the strength of 100 men.

Now granted Spider-man hitting harder than The One doesn't mean Peter can nessasarily one shot. Because we have seen Iron Fist roll with Spider-man's punches in the past to reduce the impact of there blows. There is also the fact Spider-man likely wont hit Iron Fist as hard as he can in character it is reasonable to say Iron Fist can take a few punches from Spider-man. Some other things about Iron Fist that are worth noting for his durability are the fact that he can deaden himself to pain due to have almost complete control over his nervous system. Not only that but Iron Fist does have a healing factor, which allows him to heal a bullet in seconds. However one draw back to his healing factor is that it does require concentration. Danny has shown the ability to meditate and fight at the same time however he compared it to doing brain surgery and trying to fall asleep at the same time so its not the easiest process.

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Spider-man does also have a healing factor but its not the same as Iron Fist. While he doesn't have to concentrate his healing factor usually takes time. He has healed bullets over night and also has talked about how he could heal broken ribs over night. However since this is a fight and not a gauntlet that doesn't really mean much. In terms of his durability Spider-man has also taken some pretty big hits over the years:

The other thing to think about is how most of the people in Spider-mans rogues gallery are super human with the odd exceptions. Many of them are as strong or stronger than himself and he does not go untagged against them. The above scans are just examples of Spider-man taking some pretty big hits. Do I think Spider-man has durability which exceeds iron fist's striking power? No. "But Jashro you just showed Spider-man taking a hit from the hulk". I did but I mostly try to look at durability feats in a quantafiable way. We do see hulk hit Peter really far which is why I think it is impressive. However similarly to Iron Fist Spider-man has also shown the ability to roll with punches to reduce there impact.

What Spider-man cannot do that Iron Fist can do is, he cannot deaden his body to pain. With that said Peter does have strong will power and pain tolerance. As I showed in the hulk scans above hulk did break a few of his ribs and he did continue fighting afterwards. He also broke his ribs early on in the maximum Carnage story and continued to fight. Plus similarly to how Spider-man will hold back so will iron fist. While Iron Fist has killed in the past it is a lot different to kill someone who is your friend and teammate than it is a villain. So when it comes to durability I am going to say there are to many variables to gauge who would have the advantage. If either got a solid hit in I think they would KO the other. However they both have the abilities to roll with punches and since they both will pull there punches that could lead to the other taking a hit.

So in the end who do I think has the advantage in terms of physicals? I would lean towards Spider-man in the end. I think the clearest advantage Iron Fist has over Spider-man is in terms of striking power due to the iron fist. He can hit harder. However Spider-man can lift more weight, and should be reacting first due his reactions being precognitive due to spider-sense, and also for what is worth Spider-man is also more nimble overall. Now you can argue that lifting strength isn't as important as striking power but since they both have the potential to one shot the other-but both probably wont due to holding back and rolling with each other's blows-you could argue who has the advantage in terms of striking power is less important. The ability to avoid a solid hit is what seems most important to me and it seems like Spider-man's speed and agility are more valuable as far as the physical category are concerned.

Spider-man has the advantage.

Fighting Ability

Now I talked about this in the Deathstroke vs Wolverine Deadliest Warrior but for those who never read that basically the reason I label this category "fighting ability" instead of just skill is because this category does not just analyze martial arts skill but the general way in which characters fight, along with fighting tactics. For example in the case of Spider-man I will be analyzing the creative ways in which he uses his powers to fight.

With that said I think it goes without saying in pure martial arts Iron Fist has the advantage. He has better showings of pressure points, Chi manipulation, better knowledge of the anatomy, better technique. Now I am not going to say that having more and better martial arts knowledge is not an advantage for iron fist but at the end of the day aside from a lot of the technical stuff there isn't a whole iron fist can do with martial arts that Spider-man cannot do with his spider-powers. And when it does come to use of pressure points those are hard to land in a fight against an enemy who is also quite fast, and agile. They require a lot of accuracy with there strikes and its hard to be accurate against a fast moving target.

For example when Black Cat tried to use a judo throw on Spider-man Peter used his agility, ability to cling to walls and spider strength to reverse it on her.

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Now I understand Black Cat isn't as s killed as Iron Fist but that isn't the point I am trying to make. The point is Black Cat tried a martial arts technique, and Peter was able to counter with a combination of his spider-powers.

Now is martial arts all Danny has? Lets take a look at a few of his tactical showings. The first one to talk about is his fight with the iron fist killer where Danny realized that the iron fist killer was reading his Chi so to counter it Danny suppressed his chi and began to fight the iron fist killer. He also used a similar tactic against Mister X.

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Something these showings have in common is that they involve Danny fighting someone who can predict his moves and in order to counter them Danny switched up his tactics. These seem to be the most relevant showings to compare to Spider-man because that is one of Spider-man's biggest advantages in a fight. However both tactics involved Danny switching up the way he would fight. These sorts of tactics would not be effective in countering Spider-sense. Spider-sense works by sensing the future through its connection to the web of life and not by reading chi. So Danny suppressing his chi against Spider-man wont work. Spider-man also isn't reading iron fists mind so using drunken fist also wont work.

Now another notable showing to discuss would be iron fist training Victor. Victor asked Powerman who the one super hero Danny couldn't beat and Danny said it was spider-man. Victor fought Spider-man and managed to tag him with some advice from Iron Fist.

However by Iron Fist's own admission this involved use of Victor's powers which Danny does not have access to. So while Powerman did tag Spider-man using Danny's advice these aren't exactly tips Danny himself can utilize. A lot of the tactical showings Iron Fist has are mostly stuff like identifying the weakness in giant or armored enemies. I don't think that sort of thing is relevant against spider-man because spider-man has a human anatomy. Danny already knows several weak points on the human body. There was one showing where Danny was able to identify where an enemy was based on the angle of his strikes. But I also don't think that matters to much. I would normally talk about stealth but since Danny's enemy has a form of precognition its not something that needs to be talked about. I think the easiest way I can show Danny using stealth and Peter countering stealth is just posting scans of there last fight. There are also a lot of tactics displayed on both side so its something pretty relevant.

Now the firs thing to talk about is Iron Fist had the home field advantage. This took place inside Rand's building. So Iron Fist did know the environment before hand which is why he did do things like roll onto the couch and also activated a booby trap. Other tactics displayed by Iron Fist would be using his friendship with Peter to get close to use a pressure point. Now the issue with this strategy is its dependent on the situation. Sometimes heroes fight for reasons they don't really know about like in this fight. However sometimes they also do fight when both sides know exactly what is happening. Some examples would be Civil War and AVX where heroes fought each other and knew why both sides were fighting. In terms of other tactics iron fist did blow out the candles to try and make the area dark which did give him the advantage. On Spider-man's side of things he was able to assess the situation and determine he was at a disadvantage fighting iron fist inside and did take to the roof tops. He also did come and strike iron fist from below the roof after Danny did hit him using the trap to get him to leap. And when he leapt at iron fist he knew Danny would throw him and took advantage of that.

So overall I would say Spider-man go the better of iron fist in this exchange from a tactical perspective. A lot of iron fists tactics were situational with him knowing the environment or may not be applicable in a different situation. Peter showed good predictions by knowing how iron fist would react and using that to his advantage. And he also was able to assess the situation inside and take the fight to where he would have more of an advantage. In a neutral setting Iron Fist cannot use traps, and he wouldn't know the layout of the city as per the rules in every deadliest warrior I have done. You could argue Spider-man was naive by letting Iron Fist get close but I think that is context based. In the story Iron Fist stole a story from the Daily Bugle and Peter wanted an explanation. If we were talking about something like a civil war scenario where both sides know why there fighting than there is nor reason for Peter to be that trusting.

In general I think Spider-man has a higher tenancy to use the environment to his advantage. I've actually already shown scans of Peter doing that against dock ock. When Dock ock had him pinned Peter picked up a rock with his feet and threw it at Ock to escape.

I know this doesn't seem like the most complex tactic but simple tactics shouldn't be underestimated.For some more fancier tactics I would look at one of his spars with the human torch where we see some creative use of webbing (web bolas, web wings, using camouflage to make human torch crash into a water tower) and also more simple tactics like throwing a garbage bag at Human Torch. And also pretending to fall off a building in order to take human torch off guard, and also knocking a chimney on top of the human torch. Its not a serious fight betwene them but I think it still shows how clever Spider-man is. He uses a lot of the environment to his advantage and a lot of different creative tactics.

Peter has some other basic tactics that he incorporates into his fighting style. An argument could be made this one may not be as effective on iron fist because he isn't a slow brick however the way Peter hops around and uses his wall crawling in combat even when he has little space to dodge actually causes his enemies to get dizzy.

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And other tactics he employs in a fight would be the use of his quips to unbalance his enemies. As we saw when a weakened Spider-man fought kingpin in the classic era. Shang-chi has also noted this as well.

However this strategy can work as a double edge sword at times as Shang-Chi noted when he was training Spider-man. When Peter lost his spider-sense Shang-Chi told him to put all his focus and attention on the fight.

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So I think this is something that could debatable work in Spider-man's favor or against him. Danny is rather disciplined SO he might be able to tune Spider-man out. For example batroc did try to insult iron fist to anger him and while it did annoy iron fist he did manage to ignore it and retaliate with an insult of his own which did what Danny wanted it to do.

However one difference between Spider-man and Batroc is Spider-man is more relentless with his insults. The insult from batroc was enough to make iron fist "seethe" with anger. It is a little different to ignore repeated insults.

I am going to say Danny probably has the mental discipline to not get thrown off balance from Spider-man's insults. This could mean that Peter could get distracted from his banter however Spider-man is also quite use to bantering while he fights so I don't think that will happen for a majority. Overall however I do think Peter has shown to be the better strategist with the way he fights both in general and also against Iron Fist specifically. Most of Danny's strategic showings involve him targeting weak points on enemies, or changing up the way he fights but I don't think something like that will help him against spider-man. Peter on the other hand has shown more creative and unorthodox tactics. Whether is be using his spider-powers and ability to cling to walls to confuse (what he did to Hyde) or catch an enemy off guard (like he did to black cat), or if its simple tactics like throwing random objects he finds at an enemy or more complex tactics like using his webbing as camoflogue. He also has shown the ability to predict his enemies next moves, and even shown that ability against iron fist himself which is a big deal.

Overall I give this advantage to Spider-man. He isn't as skilled in martial arts however his creativity with his spider-powers equals that out and he seems to show better awareness of his environment.

Spider-man has the advantage.

X Factor's

I've talked already talked a little bit about Spider-man's wall crawling and spider-sense above. I'll start this section off by expanding a bit on both abilities. I'll start with the wall crawling ability because its both simpler and its also a pretty underrated power of Spider-man's. The thing with wall crawling is it gives Peter a lot of extra mobility. It lets him strike from different angles as I showed in the Hyde scan. However not only can Peter incorporate it in hand to hand but he can use the ability to maintain distance while he launches webbing (more on that later).

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If Peter needs to dodge a punch from Iron Fist he can jump out of range and with his wall crawling he doesn't need to come back down if it isn't safe to do so. And thanks to his spider-sense Peter could determine that. I already did post a scan from Marvel Knights, where Peter talks about how his spider-sense functions. This is why like in scans above when Spider-man is fighting Iron Fist in the dark he is able to counter Iron Fist despite being unable to see:

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Not only does it help him determine if a situation is safe but it does have other applications. For example during shadowland Spider-man used it to tag Daredevil by sensing which way Daredevil was going to jump. Not only is Daredevil incredibly agile but this version of Daredevil was stronger and faster than normal. In general Spider-sense provides more awareness. During Dan Slotts Spider-man run it was revealed that Spider-sense subconsciously guides Peter's movements even when he is doing something as basic as web swinging. It guided him to not web an area of a building where it wouldn't be able to support his own weight.

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Not only can spider-sense help Peter tag and track Danny's movements however if Peter is tagged Spider-sense can help guide Peter to reduce the level of damage he takes from Iron Fist. During Amazing Spider-man New Ways to Die when Peter was facing Bullseye and some goons, they brought special bullets with them that would lock onto Spider-man specifically. However even when Peter couldn't dodge the bullets he was able to angle his body so all the bullets did his vital organs:

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However Spider-man doesn't just have spider-powers but he also has his webbing which can be quite versatile. I already showed some of its versatility above, how Peter can make different shapes with it and use it for a variety of effects. However I haven't talked about its simpler applications in a fight. For example if Peter is in mid air and doesn't have a building around him to land on and is going to fall near iron fist and risk leaving himself open he can always use his webbing to swing over to a building and regain his footing using his wall crawling ability. However the most common use of his webbing in combat is using it to tag other people. I've already shown a few examples of that however. But even if Peter isn't accurate enough to tag Iron Fist he has very fast reloading speed which can let him cover a large area with his webbing if he has to.

In the above scans after Peter supports a building he covers a large volume of the building with his webbing. Now admittedly blanketing the area with webbing isn't something he does to often but the fact it is always an option on the table is something that should always be considered. Its not something that can be countered. Now you can argue that in the above scans the strength of the webbing is because of the large amount he used that is fair. And when it does come to how strong webbing is exactly it can be inconsistent. On one hand its been broken by Shang-Chi, on the other we have seen Hulk struggle to rip it off from his eyes. There have been a few statements as to how strong webbing is. In AVX it was said to be 2.62X as strong as steel, and in marvel fact files it was said to be 300lbs per square inch. There is also a statement where webbing is said to 120lbs per square millimeter.

For those that prefer showings one showing I have always liked to use would be in Roger Stern's run when Peter tried to use his webbing to stop the juggernaut. It didn't work however the webbing did not actually break, but the supports of the building gave out first. There is also a statement that even a small matt of webbing could stop a speeding car.

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At the end of the day would the webbing be able to restrain Iron Fist? Now before I discuss this further I do want to mention Iron Fist did break Spider-man's webbing in marvel team up 31. However according to the narration after he was webbed up "it took him a couple of minutes to realize he was caught good" and than we just see iron fist break it after. Its kind of a weird showing because it does seem like iron fist was webbed up for a few minutes but than he just broke it. Iron Fist in that fight was the aggressor as well so I don't think he could have escaped whenever he wanted. It does seem like he was restrained long enough to be considered incapacitated.

With that said Iron Fist has gotten more powerful since than. Probably his biggest advantage in this fight is his AOE. One example of this would be when Iron Fist was fighting Elektra he unleahsed his chi and it resulted in elektra being thrown back:

So Danny can create an explosion of energy just by activating his chi. And we have seen Danny channel his chi into range attacks known as chi blasts. These chi blasts have shown to be powerful enough to that it can be lethal as we saw when Danny managed to kill multiple ninjas with a single chi blast:

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Would this explosive force be enough to break webbing? Maybe. We have seen Spider-mans webbing smother the explosions of missiles and grenades.

Even if Iron Fist's chi blasts aren't stronger than the grenade's and missiles an argument could be made he doesn't need it to be stronger than missiles and grenades. He just needs it to be strong enough to where the webbing gets off his body. And even in the above scans, when Peter webs the missiles and grenades, the webbing does smother the explosion but the webbing does still expand, and in the case of the missiles we do see a few holes in the webbing. I think Iron Fist's chi blast can be around the power of a grenade. However some people might think that if Iron Fist does this he might experience a back lash from unleashing his Chi and causing an explosion with his body encased in webbing. However it is important to note that iron fist has the ability to absorb energy.

Another way to think about it would be think of how Danny destroyed the train. He was inside the explosion. Danny doesn't seem to have a problem handling explosions and energy based attacks. He could probably deal with the back lash of his own chi. Now the other argument is iron fist might be able to burn spider-man's webbing. We have seen Iron Fist's chi melt metal before however Spider-man's webbing has allowed him to punch Molton Man who can also melt metal and other things.

However Danny can do more than channel his chi in the form of blasts. When he channels it in the form of a punch it seems to be at its strongest. I have already shown him knocking down the hellicarrier, and destroying a temple in a few punches. Similar to how Spider-man doesn't really web spam often but you can never count it out, Danny does have the potential to create massive AOE damage to his surroundings. That might be something worth keeping in mind if Danny were to get pressured, he could cause a massive explosion to get spider-man to either back off or to knock him back.

Danny does have some other exotic abilities.He can channel his chi into objects and throw them. We have seen Danny throw objects with his chi before. I don't think this ability will matter to much since Danny hasn't tagged someone as agile and quick as spider-man. I have already talked about his healing factor and iron fist does have other abilities like the hypnotic fist but its not something iron fist uses in combat. The last thing that I think I should touch on I guess would be Danny's senses. We kind of saw above in there last fight Spider-man did get the drop on iron fist. This likely wont happen in a rematch. Danny has always had amazing eye sight, however after reading the book of iron fist Danny's senses have improved to the point where he can hear sweat drip down someone's face.

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So even though Danny may not have precognition his senses are quite impressive.

So in the end who has the advantage when it comes to other abilities beyond fighting ability and physicals? Well Spider-man has the advantage of Spider-sense. It will be easier for spider-man to track iron fists movements and with his wall crawling ability he does have an extra advantage with mobility which supplements his speed advantage. Its also easier for him to traverse the environment since he can swing around with webbing he has the advantage in travel speed as well. It will be difficult for Iron Fist to dodge Spider-man if Spider-man can anticipate where he will leap before he does leap. Iron Fist does have range attacks of his own but there pretty limited. There more like mid range attacks but they haven't shown the same range as Spider-man's webbing. I don't think I've ever seen his chi blasts show longer range than about 20ft. Also when it does come to Danny's chi blasts Spider-man can create shields with his webbing to block Danny's chi blasts. So even though it does give iron fist options beyond hand to hand, Spider-man does have the advantage when it comes to long range. However Iron Fist does have raw destructive power with his chi. Webbing might not be able to neutralize Iron Fist because he might be able to blow it away with his chi.

But Spider-man doesn't have to use webbing just for immobilizing Iron Fist. He can swing Iron Fist around with his webbing like he did in there past fight, or he can swing other objects into iron fist like he did against Human Torch. He can even use his webbing as a distraction. If Danny is busy blowing his way out of Spider-man's webbing he might not be able to brace himself quickly enough if Spider-man rushes him. Neither of them can use stealth on the other so that is a wash. Danny could punch the ground possibly to knock spider-man off balance and that could create an opening but with spider-sense Peter might have enough warning to leap back and could jump onto a near by building out of range of iron fist's AOE. I did mention Iron Fist could create breathing room this way but as I said Spider-man has the longer range attacks so Danny would probably want to keep Spider-man close in hand to hand combat. Its also difficult to punch the ground when he is trying to avoid Spider-man.

I'm also going to give this category to Spider-man.

Verdict

Alright so if it wasn't obvious I am giving the win to Spider-man. With that said I would still like to sum up my thoughts because even though I did give Spider-man the advantage in each category I think this is a good fight and I can see why Iron Fist is considered one of the closest street levelers to Spider-man if not the outright closest. I think the biggest elephant in the room is my decision to give Spider-man the edge in fighting ability. Again I have to stress that when discussing that category we aren't just talking about who is the better martial artist. If they were fighting H2H in a cage match and Spider-man couldn't use his wall crawling or webbing than I think it would be a harder category to call. I think Iron Fist has impressive enough speed feats where he can be compared to Spider-man. He is obviously the better martial artist and Peter does have the edge in Spider-sense.

However even in that kind of scenario I still think its debatable looking at there history and Iron Fist's statements. I showed the fight above but when Danny did fight Peter in the dark-which gave Iron Fist the advantage by Peter's admission-Peter still dodged more hits and landed the first strike. Now you can argue that Iron Fist has improved since than but there is also his statement when talking to power man. And for the record this statement can be supplemented with showings involving post book of iron fist Danny. In Amazing Spider-man 653 we saw Smythe give some of his minions there own Spider-sense. The New Avengers had a hard time tagging these thugs which led to Spider-man having to create a device to remove there spider-sense and led to him losing his own Spider-sense. Now admittedly the panel doesn't really show Danny missing or hitting these thugs so there is an element of vagueness to this showing in relation to Iron Fist. However I would say its implied Iron Fist had difficulty tagging them. During the fight Danny makes this comment:

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Danny seemed to be analyzing there movements and dodges and studying them. Likewise the point of the story was that the avengers current plan of attack wasn't working and all they were doing was tiring themselves out because they couldn't tag these thugs due to there precognitive abilities. The other thing I want to point out is you can argue Danny has improved through reading the book of Iron Fist but you can argue the same with Peter going through his way of the spider training. You can argue that Peter doesn't show his way of the spider training and it hasn't made a huge difference in his fights but I feel similar can be said for Danny with the book of iron fist. Danny was a top tier fighter before the book, and after the book he has shown more abilities but he doesn't seem to really defeat any of his previous rivals any easier. The people who were his rivals before studying the book still seem to be competitive with him. I think his showing with Shang-Chi is probably the most blatant example of this. Even as current as 2017 Shang-Chi is still competitive with Danny by his own admission. I think its fair to say Danny was always Shang's rival even before the book.

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So any argument of improvements can be made both ways. Or you can argue the Marvel universe hasn't fundamentally changed in 20 years and the hierarchy is still the same as its always been. I think with either perspective its fair to say Spider-man has the advantage. However as I said what really made me give Spider-man the advantage when it came to fighting ability was just that he is better at using the environment. I probably could find a lot more showings of Peter being clever but I don't want to bombard you with scans. I chose some of the examples that stuck out in my head. I think a lot of the showings with Iron Fist's tactical ability mostly involved him changing up his fighting style or identifying weak points. In my research and reading of the character I didn't find a lot of showings of him using the environment. I don't think Danny is an idiot but I don't think he interacts as much with the environment as Spider-man has been shown to. Simple things like Peter deciding to throw a trash bag at Iron Fist to distract him for a split second could honestly turn the tide in a fight like this. One slip up and either combatant could take the advantage. A lot of the examples of Iron Fist's tactical showings were things that happened more by happenstance than Danny thinking cleverly. During Immortal Iron Fist #23 when Danny overloaded that kinetic absorbing monster it wasn't really because Danny thought to do that but more so because Danny refused to go down without a fight. He did slice its Achilles tendon and had it collapse under its own weight but Danny didn't think to do that.

What I will say that made me hesitate a little bit when deciding that category was Danny's discipline. I think Peter's quips can be effective depending on the enemy but I do think it can be distracting to Peter himself if his enemy can ignore his banter. And we saw Danny show the discipline to ignore that against Batroc. I also think that during this era Danny was more hot headed than he is in recent years. So I do think Danny would be less likely to be distracted by Spider-man's taunts. However I also do believe Peter is good at multi-tasking and his quips are second nature to him. So I don't think they are so big as a distraction that it will make Peter easy to tag. Likewise when Shang-Chi made that statement Peter didn't have Spider-sense, So you could argue Peter had to learn how to focus more during that specific point in time due to not having his danger sense.

Danny is obviously a better martial artist but I also don't think there is much Danny can do with his skill that Spider-man can't do with his spider-powers. Martial artists are trained to read body language to predict enemies movements; Spider-man has spider-sense to do that. Danny uses technique to increase his striking power; Spider-man has super strength. Danny uses his skill to judo throw people; Peter uses his agility to reverse judo throws. The only thing I could think of was pressure points but those tend to matter less against fast and agile enemies because they require a lot of accuracy to pull off. Danny has a hard enough time landing a hit on Spider-man, landing something as precise as a pressure point seems unrelasitc. Also even without talking about way of the spider Peter has displayed some knowledge of the anatomy, obviously not to the point Iron Fist does but still its something. He did try striking Hammerhead in the windpipe for example (it didn't work because of his new enhancements at the time)

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Not that it matters.

And finally there is the strategy they both displayed in there fight. As I said I think Spider-man comes off as more impressive because Iron Fists strategies were dependent on him having the home field advantage and the scenario in which the fight took place. He doesn't have any more knowledge of the location here in my deadliest warrior scenarios. So there are no couches for him to roll onto to cushion his blows, and he can't activate booby traps because there not fighting in his building. The goal of my deadliest warriors is to try and create as much of a neutral setting as possible. I never defined the scenario here but my default assumption is there are no mysteries why two characters are fighting and both sides know why they have to fight. When judging strategy its important to look at it as a case by case basis. One strategy might work against one enemy/scenario and another strategy might not work in a different scenario against the same enemy.

Iron Fist only got Peter to lower his guard because Spider-man was trying to figure out why Danny stole files from the Daily Bugle. Danny knew why Spider-man was after him, there was nothing for Spider-man to explain but there was for Iron Fist to explain. That kind of strategy only works when one combatant has to explain what is going on. Whereas when it came to Spider-man's use of strategy he managed to lure Iron Fist to the roof tops which was his territory, and he also managed to predict Danny's actions in the end and take advantage of predicting Danny's actions.

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Spider-man clearly had the advantage before the sign started to fall. And it was because he of this move that created that opening. I'm not saying Spider-man will outsmart Iron Fist with this specific move every time. But what I think this does show is Spider-man can read Iron Fist better than Danny can read Spider-man. So if Peter can predict Danny's actions better its easier for Peter to setup his strategies.

I wont go into much detail on the physical section. You could argue speed is pretty even. I gave Spider-man the advantage for 2 reasons:

  1. Spider-man has spider-sense. This gives him the edge when it comes to reactions because he would always be reacting first since he would be reacting before Danny throws his punch, kick, etc. The only way Danny could have the speed advantage would be if he were so fast he overwhelms Peter before he registers the warning of his spider-sense but we've seen Iron Fist interact with Spider-man and other people with similar abilities and he never overwhelmed them with speed like that. It also gives Peter the edge when it comes to striking if he can anticipate where Iron Fist will dodge (admittedly I would also say it requires more focus to use Spider-Sense that way)
  2. I think in general there is more of a portrayal of Peter blitzing more named characters more. This is admittedly subjective so you can ignore this point. Its not really a huge part of my argument. Point #1 is more important.

Feat wise you can argue they have similar feats. We saw Danny catch bullets and we have seen Peter and his clones do the same thing. Both move faster than the eye. However as I said in the fighting ability section in addition to Spider-sense Peter's webbing and wall crawling supplements his speed advantage because it gives him extra mobility by giving him more surfaces to move along and he can swing in mid-air. So even if they were even in speed Peter would have the advantage in terms of mobility. Striking power goes to Iron Fist but I think they both have the potential to one shot each other or not depending on morals how hard they are willing to hit, and also depending on if they can successfully roll with each other's blows.

The X-factor category was another close category and ended up being closer than I thought. Danny's chi is a nice counter to Peter's webbing. Ultimately I gave this to Spider-man largely because of Spider-sense and the mobility stuff along with Danny having less range. Even if webbing probably can't stop Danny I think it can at least be a distraction which is all Peter needs to take the advantage. Once there is an opening Peter just has to keep on the offense. The thing with this fight is, is that if either fighter gets an opening the other fighter likely wont be able to recover to be able to respond. Similar to what happens to a boxer when there cornered. Spider-man would probably be more likely to recover since he can jump higher, has webbing, and his wall crawling. The other thing is Danny's punch is more likely to send Peter flying since its stronger. and Peter does have a chance of taking it due to morals. In there last fight Danny Chi was unfocused which made it hard for him to control his chi. Its why when he does tag Peter with the iron fist he says "No!" because he thinks he hit Peter to hard. Despite Iron Fist showing concern he may have hit Peter to hard, Peter still took the hit:

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With all that said do not confuse me giving Spider-man the advantage in all 3 categories as this being a one sided fight. Its not. For example I was tempted to call the X-factor category a tie and the only reason I didn't was because I consider ties cop outs. Iron Fist absolutely has the means to challenge Spider-man and he does have some solid advantages. I just think Spider-man has more advantages and I think he should win a majority.

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So do you agree or disagree with my analysis? Feel free to agree or disagree below.

29 Comments

Comicvine's Deadliest Warrior: Wolverine vs Deathstroke

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Alright so I am still doing these. The next match up I am choosing to do is Deathstroke vs Wolverine! The last one I did was Captain America vs Batman. If your curious what these are or where I got the idea check out the last one.

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The Conditions

Rules

  • This is 616 Wolverine. This is Post Crisis Deathstroke despite what the image above shows.
  • Both are operating in character
  • Both have standard equipment
  • There is no prep time
  • Victory can be achieved through any means

Setting

  • They begin 50 ft apart
  • They begin visible
  • Fight takes place in a city at night. Neither combatant has knowledge on the location.

Physicals

I'm not going to spend a lot of time on strength because I don't think strength is going to be relevant here. Both wolverine and Deathstroke rely on weapons when they fight so I don't really think strength will be to relevant. The only scenario I see it maybe being relevant is if Wolverine is pressing his claws against Slade, and Slade has to physically hold wolverine back. But if Deathstroke has gotten into that sort of position he probably isn't going to win, but we'll get into that later in the blog. I don't think there is a difference when it comes to Wolverine and Post Crisis Deathstroke's strength anyhow.

When it comes to the subject of speed both Wolverine and Deathstroke are incredibly quick. Starting this part off by talking about wolverine, not only is wolverine capable of attacking insanely fast, but he can also dodge bullets contrary to what some believe. Wolverine has moved faster than the human eye can track on many occasions. The marvel handbook also does consider wolverine to have enhanced human reflexes as well.

Deathstroke is in the same tier of speed. He has been stated to be faster than batman who has done similar to the above. Not to mention Slade himself has also been able to throw swords at faster than the eye speed. And while speedster tagging feats aren't really measurable I do think its worth noting Deathstroke has reacted to speedsters on several occasions. Similar to how wolverines speed is rated as an enhanced human on paper, so is Deathstroke's.

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However there is one key difference between Deathstroke and Wolverine on paper. That difference is Deathstroke's enhanced brain capacity. As you can read in Slade's bio above Deathstroke has been given enhanced brain capacity. This idea was based around the theory that humans only use 10% of there brain cells, so Deathstroke would use 90%. This idea to my understanding has since been debunked but this is the logic that was used at the time of Deathstroke's creation so this is the logic we will apply here. As a result of Deathstroke being given his enhanced brain capacity, this makes it so thought and action are one with Slade:

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For Deathstroke his reflexes are instantaneous with his thoughts. This leads me to believe that Deathstroke should have a reactionary advantage over Wolverine. Another point I do feel is that even though wolverine can be very acrobatic I do feel like Deathstroke also has the advantage in that category as well. Another power of Deathstroke's enhancements is the ability to control every muscle within his body. This ability is so precise he can trick a machine into thinking he is dead. He has used this ability to survive being flung extremely far by Terra for example:

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The above isn't Deathstroke's best agility feat but I think it explains what I am talking about the best.Deathstroke has more precise control over his muscles than Wolverine which should make him more flexible. Basically I feel like there are a few subtle differences between how Slade's enhancements work versus Wolverine's. And I think Slade's enhancements give him the advantage.

As I said I don't think strength matters, and I do feel like Slade and Wolverine are close enough on paper and in terms of feats where neither really has an advantage. Deathstroke probably wont win this fight by being slightly stronger, and Wolverine doesn't need to over power Slade when he is running at him with adamantium claws. He just needs to be strong enough where he wont be over power easily and I think that's managable for Wolverine. Durability isn't something I am going to talk about in this section because Wolverine has a healing factor and adamantium bones and I plan to discuss that later under "X-factor's". I think those are more special qualities than wolverine's inherent physicals. I think its more interesting and relevant to compare those traits to Deathstroke's weapons than count them as a physical stat even though I can see how some would count admanatium bones and Logan's healing factor towards his physical durability.

However when it comes to speed and agility I do think Deathstroke has a slight advantage over Wolverine.

Fighting Ability

I am choosing to count this category as fighting ability rather than skill, because I am going to throw tactical ability in this category as well. My thought process here is some characters I use in the future may not be great martial artists but could be great fighters due to how smart they are. I also feel like the point of being talented in martial arts is know how to use them correctly to give you an advantage. So that's how I intend to look at this category.

In terms of fighting skills Deathstroke has faced some of the most talented martial artists in the DC universe and often times came out on top. Deathstroke has fought and defeated the likes of Batman, Nightwing, and Black Canary. In the case of Nightwing it is true they have gone back and fourth a bit however the way I personally rationalize most of Nightwing's better showings against Deathstroke is him using his agility. In Nightwing #82 Nightwing admitted he normally does everything he can to keep his distance from Slade, stating that fighting Deathstroke is "all about distance and evasion". And I think this is a theme that is consistent in most of Nightwing and Deathstroke's battles. And also during Nightwing #18 which is another one of Nightwing's stronger showings against Slade, Nightwing admitted Slade could kill him "without breaking a sweat". Some people will bring up how when Deathstroke fought Batman, he admitted he wouldn't want to fight Batman if not for his enhanced physicals, which does suggest Batman is the better martial artist.

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Deathstroke has also faced Cassandra Cain as well and they have a fairly controversial history. They have gone back and fourth (sometimes with Cass seemingly having the upper hand, and sometimes Slade toys with her), and it is fair to say that Cass is a better fighter, however she has admitted that Deathstroke is faster, stronger and smarter. What this shows is just because Cass might be a better martial artist than Deathstroke doesn't mean she is better overall when Slade is capable of getting inside of her head. However its not just Cass that Slade's intellect helps him against but even going hand to hand with entire teams of Titans his intellect helps him a lot. Slade has said that The Titans going H2H with him is a mistake:

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When Slade fights entire teams of Titans he knows how to turn there numbers into a disadvantage. Now you might say that this skill isn't really helpful against Wolverine but I think Slade's skills as a team buster shows his awareness of his surroundings, and also obviously shows his tactical ability quite well. For example when Rose had her sword against his neck in the same fight, Deathstroke ducked and some batarangs hit Rose in the face. She didn't see them until it was to late because Deathstroke's body was obstructing her view.

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Also similarly to with Cass this also shows Deathstroke is mindful of what buttons to push to get an enemy riled up in combat. The way Deathstroke's mind works is that due to his enhanced brain capacity he is capable of thinking faster as well. According to Green Arrow by the time he reacts Slade already has the whole fight planned out and is a dozen of moves ahead:

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Before I start talking about Wolverine's intellect I will talk briefly about his martial arts ability. Wolverine is someone who has been alive for centuries, and he has trained under several different masters. He has been taught by some of the greatest martial artists throughout history, the weapon X programs, Shi'ar Combat Priests, etc.

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However it should be noted that Wolverine has gone through periods where he has not always retained his skills because he does not always practice regularly. This is a point that Wolverine's sensei Master Po brought up during Manifest Destiny. And I do think its important when discussing Wolverine's skills that we should look at Wolverine when he remembers his skills, and also Wolverine when he does rely on his healing factor. Some examples of this would be in Savage Wolverine #7 where Logan says he isn't much good in a fight, and also in X-Force #32 where he leaves himself open for a strike from Sabretooth in order to wake up his berserker mode.

However in the case of both fights its worth noting that when Wolverine does wake his feral berserker he ends up kicking a lot of ass. For example in X-force #32 he ends up beating Sabretooth, Skinless Man, the new Omega Red, and Omega White by himself. And it should be noted that when Wolverine is at his peak he has wins over the likes of Daredevil, Iron Fist, and Shang-Chi all without relying on his healing factor. So while Wolverine does have his showings where he does forget how to fight its also important to keep in mind that Wolverine when he does remember how to fight actually has defeated some of the best fighters in the marvel universe.

And while Wolverine does have a tenancy to rely on his healing factor and we have see it be his down fall in the past, we also have seen wolverine take advantage of his ability to tank damage in the past. For example when he fought Gorgon Wolverine said that he wouldn't try to match Gorgon blow for blow but instead would just try to lock his blade between his adamantium rib cage.

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It didn't nessasarily work out but it is a clever strategy for dealing with an enemy who is faster and a better overall fighter. If Gorgon didn't have a healing factor of his own, Logan's claws might have messed him up. In general when it comes to Wolverine's intelligence he is smarter than most would give him credit. Even the marvel handbook has described his intelligence as "above normal". We have also seen Wolverine take advantage of the environment in the past like during his battle with Omega Red during Wolverine origins. Contrary to what most believe Wolverine does fall back on using the environment when he is outmatched.

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Overall when it comes to who is the better fighter its a tough call to make. However I am going to choose to give the advantage to Deathstroke overall. Wolverine at his peak is the better martial artist, however I do think its important to acknowledge Wolverine doesn't always perform at his peak due to his lack of discipline. And that is an advantage Deathstroke has on Wolverine. And even though Wolverine's intellect shouldn't be underestimated Deathstroke should hold the advantage in intellect due to his enhanced brain capacity. Due to his ability to think faster it is likely that whatever Wolverine thinks of, Deathstroke will think of it first.

X-Factor's

I've already talked a bit about Wolverine's X-factor's a little bit so I will start with him. As I've mentioned above he has an adamantium skeleton, which coats every bone in his body and also his claws. Adamantium cannot be destroyed by anything in Deathstroke's which means that Wolverine cannot be decapitated, have his limbs sliced off, or anything of the sort. He can also use his adamantium skeleton to jam melee weapons between his bones. Not only has he done this against Gorgon but also Silver Samurai:

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And with his healing factor it makes any damage Wolverine does receive something he can recover from. Even getting his face blown off doesn't stop Wolverine. Wolverine has ran through bullets, massive explosions, and taken punches from class 100's like the hulk, and has shown the ability to recover rather quickly. However I think it is also important to note that Wolverine isn't invincible. Logan is not invulnerable so he still takes damage. Strikes to his vital organs and major arteries can put him down. While Logan has sometimes shrugged off stabs to the heart or slashes across the throat he has also been dropped by those sorts of attacks in the past.

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Pressure points have been a tad inconsistent in there effectiveness on Wolverine, however I will say Wolverine does seem to have a degree of resistance. Deathstroke also hasn't shown a lot of pressure point based attacks so I don't think this matters. However Wolverine has more than just a formidable defense with his adamantium skeleton and healing factor, he also has a strong offense with his adamantium claws. His claws have cut through several power houses within the marvel universe including Hulk, Thing, Thanos, Gladiator, Red Hulk, etc.

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There aren't a lot of objects that can meet Wolverine's adamantium claws head on. When Logan's claws are slicing through top tier power houses it kind of suggests there isn't much that can stand up to his claws. So Wolverine has a strong offense and a strong defense with his claws, healing and adamantium skeleton. But in addition to this strong combo Wolverine also has enhanced senses which makes it hard to hard to hide from him.

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With his enhanced senses it is unlikely Wolverine will be taken off guard. Not only does Wolverine have all of these abilities but when he does experience a lot of pain he can enter a berserker state. In this state Wolverine doesn't experience pain and he gets a slight boost in strength and speed. It is worth noting that it has been stated that even within this state Wolverine is still capable of forming strategic decisions, and still retains his combat skills.

As for Deathstroke he also has some pretty similar powers. Like Wolverine he has a healing factor and also enhanced senses. However his healing factor is nowhere near Wolverine's level. However Slade is still capable of healing wounds in seconds. Also similarly to Wolverine when he takes a lot of damage he also can go into a feral state. However unlike Wolverine he recieves no benefits from entering that state and cannot fight as competently.

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When it comes to his enhanced senses he has detected tremors on the ground from Terra. He has also claimed his senses are increased 1000X.

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However Slade's biggest advantage in this fight would be his arsenal of weapons. He has swords, knives, and other weapons that are effective at close range, however he also carries guns, explosives, and his blast staff which can destroy solid rock.

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Deathstroke also does possess armor but its not really relevant in a fight with Wolverine.

Overall when it comes to who has the advantage here its a tough call. Wolverine is pretty tough however Slade does have a lot of range weapons he can use to get a measure on Wolverine's healing factor and with his enhanced senses he will definitely notice Wolverine's ability to regenerate. From the get-go Slade is going to to be doing a lot of damage. However the question is can Deathstroke drop Wolverine before Logan gets in close? Its possible, however Logan has soaked powerful energy attacks before such as cyclops optic blasts, and also the second silver samurai's giant energy blast. Deathstroke has also been known to carry flash bangs occasionally, however Wolverine can still fight relying on his enhanced sense of smell. So while a flash bang might impede Wolverine a bit, it wont stop him or leave him helpless. Its also possible Deathstroke might not expect Wolverine to be able to smell him.

Up close its basically a case of anything you can do I can do better. Deathstroke has promethium weapons? Adamantium is better. Deathstroke can heal wounds instantly? Wolverine can regenerate from a skeleton in the span of a short phone call. Plus Wolverine has his adamantium skeleton so the long reach of Slade's own sword could work against him as its easier to get it stuck between Wolverine's skeleton. Wolverine's claws will also cut through Slade's weapons and armor. Getting close will be the challenge.

When it comes to X-factor's Wolverine has the advantage.

The Verdict

In the above analysis Deathstroke has taken the advantage in 2/3 categories however that doesn't nessasarily mean he will win. Deathstroke has the advantage in physicals but that advantage is mostly based on how his powerset works. Its not a difference that I would say is very noticeable based on on showings. When it comes to fighting ability it is a lot tougher to call. Wolverine can be more skilled depending on what showings you want to use however Wolverine isn't the most disciplined fighter and that should be considered. Even when Wolverine is fighting at his peak it is possible Deathstroke could still outfight him based on his tactical ability.

However it still wont be easy for Deathstroke to outfight Wolverine, and because of Wolverine's healing factor and adamantium skeleton he can afford to make a mistake. We also need to consider how reliable Deathstroke's intellect is in a random encounter. What can Deathstroke do in a standard city enviornment that can stop Wolverine? The only tactic that came to midn right away is Deathstroke blasting some rubble down on top of Wolverine however the odds of him getting Wolverine in that position and keeping him in that position long enough for the rubble to fall on him doesn't seem like it will happen for a majority of the time. I also don't think Wolverine's own intellect should be underestimated. I've covered it above but Wolverine has several enemies who he can't nessasarily out tough. He also has shown to be abel to use his intellect when he needs to such as against Omega Red or Gorgon when outclassed. I think its fair to say that while Wolverine isn't as smart as Slade he still is mindful of his surroundings.

The big challenge for Wolverine in this fight will be trying to get up close to Deathstroke, and not take to much damage before things get into melee, or take enough damage where Slade can finish him off in melee. And while Deathstroke is a formidable marksman with enhanced senses, his blast staff has been evaded before by the likes of Batman, who I would say has similar agility as Wolverine.

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Wolverine has evaded attacks from the likes of Cyclops so I think its fair to say Wolverine can dodge Deathstroke at least some of the time. And whatever he can't dodge he can tank. The starting distance here is only 50ft. When it comes down to CQC Wolverine has a big advantage due to his ability to heal and his admanatium anatomy. I covered this above but Logan in CQC can trap Deathstroke's sword between his rib cage or other bones, he can slice through Deathstroke's sword in CQC, and Deathstroke's armor is useless. Deathstroke has no way of stopping adamantium claws which can cut the likes of the Hulk, unlike Wolverine who's bones will protect him from Slade's weapons.

It is possible Slade can work around this by targeting areas like the throat and avoiding bone, however that is easier said than done while Slade is also trying to avoid being sliced up by an enemy of similar speed. While Slade can heal some damage, he can't regenerate an entire limb, and in general can't regenerate at the rate Wolverine can. Once the fight makes it to close range, it is likely that Deathstroke will lose most of his weapons. Without any weapons for Deathstroke to rely on he can't win in H2H since punching Wolverine will do more damage to himself than it would Wolverine.

I think this is an extremely close fight. Slade has a lot of options at his disposal, but at the end of the day even if he has more advantages, Deathstroke's advantages are slight. His biggest advantage here is his range weapons however Wolverine has the means to get in close with his speed, agility, skill, and his damage soak.

The winner is Wolverine.

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39 Comments

Comicvine's Deadliest Warrior: Captain America vs Batman

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I figured this could be a fun idea. Basically this is an idea that is inspired by one of k4tm4n's articles he use to write for this site called does batman always win? This will be a similar concept but I am choosing to call it comicvine's deadliest warrior so I can write about whatever.

Basically the idea of this blog is I will break down some of the most highly debated matches in comics (maybe outside of comics to we'll see) and you guys can comment if I am right or wrong below, and if you think I am wrong you guys can explain.

The first match up I am choosing to break down is Batman vs Captain America! I think both are well known characters, there is a lot to talk about, and I think you can find a lot of fans on both sides.

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The Conditions

Before I get into the break down lets establish the setting and rules...

Rules

  • This is 616 Captain America. Batman will be a composite of both post crisis, and post flashpoint.
  • Both are operating in character
  • Both have standard equipment
  • There is no prep time
  • Victory can be achieved through any means

Setting

  • They begin 50 ft apart
  • They begin visible
  • Fight takes place in a city at night. Neither combatant has knowledge on the location.

Physicals

The first category I will talk about are physicals. I think this category is straight forward. Both Batman & Captain America have impressive feats of physical stats. We'll start off with talking about Batman but essentially Bruce has trained his body to peak physical condition. He has impressive strength feats to the point where he can bust through walls, punch talons through walls made of marble while near death and exhausted, and also punch and kick down large tress and bricks:

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Batman's speed is also equally as impressive. He's been able to punch bullets out of the air, has moved as a blur, and also has shown some formidable agility. I also don't think I need to go into much detail about his endurance, but batman's will power is totally insane. His will power has allowed him to endure being stabbed by knives and continue fighting. Even when Bruce was impaled, starved, and drugged he still found the strength to beat down William Cobbs. While Bruce isn't inexhaustible it usually takes him running through an entire gauntlet of his own villains while he is already ill for him to really feel the effect of fatigue.

Captain America on the other hand is an enhanced human. He didn't get strong by working out but instead he was injected with a super soldier serum. The strength feats between batman and captain america are pretty similar. I've already gone over Bruce's above but a few examples of Cap's would be how he tosses anchors, pulls down helicopter's, lifting large trees, and punches people with enough force to send them flying into steel polls with enough force to dent the steel:

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In terms of speed Cap has dodged bullets after they have been fired, moved faster than the eye, and has reacted to speedsters.

Overall Cap and Bruce has pretty similar feats when it comes to strength and speed. However where I think you really start to notice a difference is in durability. Sometimes with Captain America he has feats of being punched into the air by class 50's like warrior woman (who sends Steve above the clouds), has fallen from extreme heights, and again, and also tanked a point blank explosion from gambit and was fine.

Overall I also don't think its a matter of feats alone. But it also feels like if you talk to different writers on the subject there will be some variance in opinions when it comes to captain america. You have some people like Tom Breevort that view cap as a regular peak human, but than you have people like Ed Brubaker, and Christopher Priest who view Cap as enhanced. And I do think this reflects in there showings. Where I feel like sometimes cap does things that seem pretty blatantly super human. You could say batman does that to but not really as often IMO, and honestly its just more believable in the case of captain america.

After all is said and done I have to give this advantage to Captain America.

Skill

Both are incredibly skilled and are among the best fighters in the universe. Starting with Captain America this time around his skill is phenomenal. Whether it be him holding off spider-man, or Cap being able to adapt and fight better in conditions it would take most men decades to master, and has matched some of the best fighters on the planet like black panther, daredevil, gambit, and deadpool. A common theme that all the aforementioned characters have in common is they all have there own enhancements (in daredevils case its his sense), yet Steve still matches them. In the case of Black Panther and Deadpool for example they are just as enhanced as cap is. Black Panther is regarded as Steve's equal according to most writers, including Regenald Hudlin who gave black panther some of his best feats (black panther never lost under Hudlin IIRC).

Not only has captain america proven himself in battle with enemies equally as enhanced as he is but we have seen him fight stronger enemies. Above I have his fight with spider-man who is someone who is faster, stronger, more agile, has prcog, the ability to stick to walls, etc. and cap did quite well against him. We also have seen Captain America throw around stronger enemies than himself using his skill:

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However in this fight captain america is not against a brute like the hulk, he is facing someone like Batman. Batman similarly is one of the best fighters in his universe. He has matched people like Lady Shiva as a perfect equal, beaten Bane, and completely humiliated nightwing. He's shown to be a master of pressure point techniques, and also has shown complete mastery of stealth techniques to the point where batman can even ghost superman!

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This is because Batman's skills aren't limited to just martial arts training, but he also studied more than just martial arts but still applies those skills to combat. For example when Bane was going to drop a boulder on batman, Bruce managed to ghost him despite the fact Bane was supposedly faster than batman himself was.

Overall there both extremely good hand to hand fighters and I might even call them equals in that regard. However I would give this advantage to batman since his training is more varied. Bruce is just as skilled in hand to hand but batman has trained himself in more field than just hand to hand combat.

So Batman gets the edge here.

X-Factor's

X-Factor's is the section of the fight where we talk about abilities of weapons that don't nessasarily relate to skill or physicals. Starting with Batman I think its pretty obvious that he is bringing a lot to the table in this category. He has his utility belt which is basically a belt of plot. He has explosives, gadgets that freeze, grappling hooks, flash bangs/smoke pellets, freezing capsules, knock out gas, etc.

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Not only does batman have the above items listed inside his utility belt but he also has weapons built into his suit like shock gauntlets. It should also be noted that batman's armor boosts his durability which might help him bridge the gap in the physical department. His suit has withstood a panther biting his head, and has shown to be bullet proof on occasion. It has also been stated his suit has build in shock absorbers built into the suit. His cape can also be used to glide through the air. Batman also has various vision modes built into his suit. This includes (but is not limited to) thermal vision.

Its very easy to dismiss Cap's shield since Batman is a walking armory but the shield can be described as a simple and effective tool. Obviously the shield gives him a pretty big advantage in hand to hand. Its made out of an indestructible metal that has withstood hits from people like Thor without breaking. Cap has used it to slice through tanks and helicopters in the past. So the level of damage Cap can output with the shield is pretty hefty. Not only is cap able to cause a lot of damage but as you can see in the helicopter scan cap throws his shield with absurd accuracy. He can also use it to richoshet off walls and box enemies in. Batman can also perform richoshets with his projectiles but not like this (probably due to the shields properties):

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Overall Steve's shield gives him a very good balance of offense and defense.

When I went into this I thought batman would have the edge here due to his overwhelming versatility. He certainly does have some gadgets that cap doesn't really have an answer for. However its not always easy to use those gadgets when batman is being pressured, and even though Cap's shield doesn't give Cap as many options it can be devastating in close range and effective in long range. I was tempted to call this a draw however one big difference between all of batman's gadgets and Cap's shield: If the shield is disarmed Cap is facing all of what batman has to offer unarmed.

On the other hand batman has shown enjoyment against testing himself against worthy enemies:

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This is something that has varied a bit from writer to writer but I thought this was a clever explanation why batman doesn't always use his gadgets in fights (granted it is also partially plot). I do think its fair to say that batman takes pride in his training. He is someone who has trained his whole life to be the best there is at everything.

There is a lot to consider here when it comes to cap and batman and there X-factors. I am going to give this advantage to batman because I think he has more options and its easier for batman to remove the shield from play than it is for cap to counter everything batman has. Also while you can criticize batman for not always using his gear because he takes pride in his abilities, you can also say that cap wont hit batman as hard as he can with his shield due to morals.

So Batman takes the advantage here.

Verdict

So after all is said and done who wins? Cap has the advantage in a hand to hand fight I feel. he has the greater physical stats, and also the shield is a pretty solid weapon. However Cap has a tendency of starting fights off by throwing his shield. The shield has been caught or avoided by people like daredevil (3 times), gambit, crossbones, black panther, spider-man, Punisher, an exhausted iron fist etc. Even though the shield has a lot of power behind, and even though Cap is quite accurate with the shield, it gets disarmed a lot. As I discussed above batman has a lot of options. Not just with his equipment but even with his skill set, and how it all works together in conjunction.

For example batman is a master of stealth and he has gear that compliments that skill. Flash bangs and smoke bombs can be used as a good to blind captain america and allow batman to vanish and get the drop on him with knock out gas or freeze capsules. Its also possible batman can use his grappling hook to grapple up a building to gain some distance if batman is ever getting overwhelmed.

The other point I think that needs to be brought up is even though I give Cap the advantage in a purely CQC fight its not definitive. Cap's physical advantage is pretty small in the long run. His only major advantage is in durability but that is lessened by batman's pain tolerance and his armor. Cap's strength and speed advantages aren't big. Despite Cap's physical advantage in a fight he still has struggled with peak human enemies in the past. So it stands to reason that even in a CQC fight where Cap has the advantage it wont be a clean sweep.

Some people might be thinking that deathstroke beat batman despite a small advantage physically, however deathstroke also cited the fact he was more ruthless as an advantage over batman, and I don't view captain america as more ruthless than batman. Plus dathstroke and captain america is a completely separate debate. The fact that cap also isn't willing to kill lessons his biggest advantage here as well, which is his damage output.

Overall when it comes down to it, its likely that Cap will get disarmed. He throws his shield a lot, and even if you want to chalk up cap's tenancy to have his shield dodged or disarmed due to his morals the fact of the matter is it does happen a lot. Meaning its very likely that it will happen against batman. And even though batman might not open with his gadgets because he might want to test himself against captain america, Bruce is also a genius. If he realizes he is outmatched he will change his tactics, and he has the means to do so by gaining distance. Or even if batman doesn't gain distance he could just use his gadgets, such as his taser. If the shield is disarmed than Cap no longer has the advantage in melee if batman uses his own gear:

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If we are talking about a purely hand to hand fight where batman doesn't have his gadgets and cap doesn't have his shield than cap could maybe win a 6/10 majority in a hard earned fight.....But batman is still capable of winning a few scenarios out of 10. However when we are talking about an all out fight like this we have to consider what else could possibly happen. Many of batman's gadgets could create a new scenario in which batman wins. For example I can't think of anything cap could do to counter knock out gas if it gets used...Even if batman doesn't disarm the shield, knock out gas is something that will be effective. As would freeze capsules.

Overall I feel the main reasons Batman wins are:

  • Cap is likely to lose the shield based on his history of fighting other street levelers.
  • Even if cap does keep the shield his morals reduce its effectiveness.
  • Batman's gear is more versatile and he has so much of it.
  • There are a couple of gadgets Bruce has that cap simply can't counter
  • Bruce has options beyond engaging in pure H2H like the use of stealth, or just gaining distance with a grappling gun.
  • Even if cap does lock Bruce in a CQC fight and batman doesn't take advantage of his many gadgets its still an extremely tough fight for Cap and its possible batman could pull an upset and outfight cap. Even though I do personally favor cap in that scenario.
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49 Comments

Respect Tomura Shigaraki

Tomura Shigaraki

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Warning:

This thread will contain spoilers for the MHA manga and Anime. You read the below at your own risk.

Origin

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Tomura Shigaraki was originally born Tenko Shimura. He was a descendant on Nana Shimura. As a result of Nana Shimura dying this led to Kotaro Shimura (Tenko's father) resenting heroes. Since Tenko Shimura wanted to be a hero this led to him growing up in an abusive household. One day Tenko and his sister snuck into there father's office which lef to Kotaro beating him a bit more than usual.

Later Tenko unlocked his quirk and killed his family (mostly by accident except his father).

https://imgur.com/a/iyYzBIE

Afterwards Tenko Shimura ran away from home. No citizen would help him, and he also got beat up by street thugs. Than he met All For One who did help him and gave him his family's hands to wear. He kills some thugs, and than is given the name "Tomura Shigaraki".

https://imgur.com/a/29dzNY3

Tomura=To Mourn. It is used when we grieve or say goodbye to the dead

Shigaraki=All For One's last name.

Strength

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Shigaraki casually chokes Deku with only a few fingers:

Durability/Stamina/Pain Tolerance

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Shigaraki is shot in the hand, along with both arms and legs and is still conscious after:

Shortly after being shot by Snipes he gets stabbed by Stain and shrugs that off. His wounds from Snipes had just healed.

Shigaraki has his hand crushed and remains conscious

Shigaraki and the League of Villains fight Gigantomachia for a month and a half. Shigaraki barely sleeps during this time as Gigantomachia would track him down with his enhanced senses.

Later the league fights Re-Destro's liberation army which has 100,000 people in it. I wont upload the whole fight because its an entire arc (chapters 224-239 basically), but I will upload this scan to highlight Shigaraki's condition. But basically Shigaraki was so tired he was hallucinating mid-fight and was vomiting as well:

Shigaraki takes a blast to the face from Bakugo:

Takes a finger flick from Re-destro which sends him flying several ft:

Takes a hit from 80% Re-Destro. He does partially decay the blast Re-Destro hits him with but considering the blast still levels a city block its still impressive. A tired and injured Shigaraki gets back up:

Speed

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Shigaraki blitzes Tsyu from a far distance:

Shigaraki catches Eraserhead's sash:

Shigaraki Blitzes fodder while vomiting and exhausted:

Shigaraki seemingly was able to react to Gran Torino (hard to say for sure because all for one interfered).

Shigaraki nearly blitzes overhaul until one of Overhaul's minions intercepts the blitz:

An exhausted Shigaraki dodges various projectiles from the liberation army:

Shigaraki's double created by twice keeps up with Re-Destro who at his lowest stress output could move faster than the eye:

Even when Re-Destro goes to 100% of his full power Shigaraki can still react and keep up:

Re-Destro comments that with his current physicals, Shigaraki should have been able to kill a hero or two at Kamino:

Skill

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Re-Destro comments that Shigaraki's technique has little to no wind up and that his movements are lithe like a cat's. And also comments that Shigaraki has trained his movements, and that type of skill could only be achieved through life or death training for an extended period of time:

Quirk

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Shigaraki decays 2 guys instantly:

Shigaraki decays Overhaul's arms instantly, and cuts them off before the decay can spread:

Due to the trauma of his origin, Shigaraki repressed his memories and also kept his quirk in check, limiting it:

Initially before limiting the power of his quirk, Shigaraki was able to decay the surrounding environment, kill from a distance, and cause his house to decay via chain effect:

As his memories started coming back to him, he started limiting his quirk less:

Shigaraki decays an entire building by touching it:

Shigaraki can even decay 100% of Re-Destro's stress which is enough to level multiple city blocks:

Shigaraki can decay people as durable as Re-Destro, who survived a massive fall at lower stress levels. Also he no longer needs 5 fingers to decay stuff:

Shigaraki causes decay with his feet:

Shigaraki erases a city block, and takes Re-Destro's legs:

The resulting crater Shigaraki created was this big:

The sheer destruction Shigaraki caused was greater than the destruction caused in Kamino when All Might & All For One fought:

Intelligence

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Shigaraki analyzes Eraserhead and figures out his tell:

Shigaraki has the foresight to see that Compress made a mistake charging Overhaul:

The police acknowledge that with each plan, Shigaraki's are getting more intricate. Also they realize that Shigaraki's plans are targeting the effect he has on society as a whole:

Shigaraki misdirects the sand hero Snatch. He jumps at him which allows Compress to throw a rock under the car Snatch is on:

Shigaraki leaves Overhaul for dead after taking his arms. I'm posting this mostly to show Shigaraki was the one who got what he wanted out of his alliance with overhaul:

Fear/Respect

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Shigaraki intimidates Sain, and Stain acknowledges Shigaraki has conviction.

Deku tries to tell Shigaraki that if he kills him a pro will show up and stop him, but Shigaraki just tells him he could kill 20-30 people before that happens. Deku is terrified of that thought and decides to talk to Shigaraki:

Deku realizes he done messed up:

Shigaraki intimidates the meta human liberation army who were raised since birth to be willing to die for Destro's cause. Even when there spirits are amplified by Trumpet they still can't bring themselves to attack him due to there fear. He also ultimately earns the respect of Gigantomachia, who is reminded of All For One. Re-Destro also submits control of his army to Shigaraki, saying that if they were to attack Shigaraki it would only result in more pointless death:

After Shigaraki gained control of the meta liberation army it was renamed the paranormal liberation front. Hawks remarks that with his current resources Shigaraki has power just as great or greater than the entirety of hero society. Ujiko also agrees to serve Shigaraki:

12 Comments

Debaters Hall Of Fame Round 9----Voting is now closed (Congratulations to the Nominees)

Purpose of the HOF

Contrary to what most may believe the HOF is about more than just back patting and recognition. It's about endorsing the values we want to see more on our forum. There's an old Saying you catch more flies with honey ................ and it's true. recognize the things you like with praise and more will want to do them for the recognition. This is your chance to positively influence our community.

Please no negative comments about any user or anyone's choice. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Rules

  1. Everyone can vote for five only of the nominees on the list below (only on the list). No complaints about the list will be accepted as it was made by the community in an open process.
  2. You cannot vote for someone twice
  3. You cannot vote for yourself (campaigning is allowed)
  4. Please base votes on the behaviors of the debaters listed and the talent they show in debated
  5. No derogatory comments about other members choices
  6. Please provide a brief reason why you voted for the viner you have ( it might just eliminate the usual negative comments about the list/process/ etc.
  7. Feel free to google the list of people on the nominee list

Round 9 Inductees!

  • Frozen

  • Wolverine08

  • Thetruebarryallen

  • Laflux

  • I_like_swords

  • Dondave

Current Hall of Fame members

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 1

  • the creator
  • Static Shock
  • Gambler
  • Buckshot
  • Vance Astro

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 2

  • Morpheus_
  • k4tzm4n
  • Zoom
  • AtPhantom
  • Ferro Vida
  • Dane

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 3

  • erik
  • Silver2467
  • Power NeXus
  • King Saturn
  • geraldthesloth

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 4

  • JediXMan
  • Spidey15
  • Lance Uppercut
  • Final Arrow
  • Matezoide

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 5

  • vuviper
  • Lunacyde
  • god_spawn
  • Strafe Prower
  • CosmicSpiral
  • MrDirector789

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 6 (Congrats!)

  • CitizenBane
  • beatboks1
  • Floopay
  • Super_SoliderXII
  • texasdeathmatch

Debaters Hall of Fame Round 7

  • jashro44
  • Killemall
  • CadenceV2
  • Strider92
  • YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

Debaters Hall of Fame Round 8

  • Lvenger
  • Wyldsong
  • Comicstooge
  • Forever
  • Dredeuced

Debaters Hall of Fame Round 9

  • Frozen
  • Wolverine08
  • Thetruebarryallen
  • Laflux
  • I_like_swords
  • Dondave

The Current Nominees

  • acewasp23
  • Alexander Anderson
  • allstarsuperman
  • ancient_of_days
  • Andferne
  • Baldy
  • bat_girl_cc
  • boschepg
  • bringnit
  • cable_extreme
  • CJDavis103
  • Chaos Prime
  • comicdude23
  • cosmicallyaware1
  • czarny_samael
  • Darkraiden
  • dccomicsrule2011
  • Decoy Elite
  • DedmanWalkin
  • Deranged Midget
  • Deathhero61
  • Difficlus
  • dondave
  • Edamame
  • Entropy_Aegis
  • esquire
  • fallschirmjager
  • Fetts
  • Fresh Prince
  • frozen
  • ghostravage
  • granitesoldier
  • higorm
  • highaccuser
  • homicidalmaniac
  • i_like_swords
  • iLLituracy
  • Illuminatus
  • iragexcudder
  • isaac_clarke
  • juiceboks
  • joygirl
  • jwalser3
  • jmarshmallow
  • kidman560/Serrue
  • Knightsofdarkness2
  • killerwasp
  • Lady_Liberty
  • laflux
  • Mercy_
  • monsterstomp
  • Mr_igenuity
  • New_World_Order
  • Neongamewave
  • nickzambuto
  • nickthedevil
  • Nightunder
  • Nobody/The_Martian
  • omgomgwtfwtf
  • Owie
  • Oreoassassin
  • Oceanmaster21
  • pope052
  • pr0metheus
  • princearagorn1
  • progenitor
  • PunkMastaFlex/Susanoo
  • reaverlation
  • ReVamp
  • Sexy Merc
  • Sherlock
  • shootingnova
  • Slimj87D
  • Shroudofsorrows
  • Son Of Storm
  • Sophia89
  • sovereign91001
  • TDK_1997
  • the_man_of_yesteryear
  • The_Legendary_supersayain_hulk
  • The_stegman
  • theacidskull
  • thetruebarryallen
  • tomlikesfries
  • tparks
  • unbreakable_fs4
  • veshark
  • White Mage
  • wolfrazer
  • willpayton
  • Wolverine08
  • XiiX

Have fun guys! And best of luck to all the nominees!

544 Comments

Debaters Hall Of Fame Round 9----Nominations

Credit to @beatboks1 for the rules

Purpose of the HOF

Contrary to what most may believe the HOF is about more than just back patting and recognition. It's about endorsing the values we want to see more on our forum. There's an old Saying you catch more flies with honey ................ and it's true. recognize the things you like with praise and more will want to do them for the recognition. This is your chance to positively influence our como therimunity.

Please no negative comments about any user or anyone's choice. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Rules for nomination round

  • This is your chance to add to the list below.
    • Vote for people who are NOT on the list below
  • If you fail to take advantage of it no bellyaching if the one you want to vote for in the HOF isn't on the list.
  • to get on the list you have to be nominated have it seconded and endorsed (three votes in total).
  • to be eligible as per all previous HOF rounds you have to have been a forum member for over a year.

Rules for when voting goes live

  1. you may only vote once
  2. you may choose up 5
  3. Nominees cannot vote for themselves
  4. you can only choose from the list of nominees provided
  5. please vote based on how they debate
  6. positive comments only please

Current Hall of Fame members

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 1

  • the creator
  • Static Shock
  • Gambler
  • Buckshot
  • Vance Astro

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 2

  • Morpheus_
  • k4tzm4n
  • Zoom
  • AtPhantom
  • Ferro Vida
  • Dane

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 3

  • erik
  • Silver2467
  • Power NeXus
  • King Saturn
  • geraldthesloth

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 4

  • JediXMan
  • Spidey15
  • Lance Uppercut
  • Final Arrow
  • Matezoide

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 5

  • vuviper
  • Lunacyde
  • god_spawn
  • Strafe Prower
  • CosmicSpiral
  • MrDirector789

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 6 (Congrats!)

  • CitizenBane
  • beatboks1
  • Floopay
  • Super_SoliderXII
  • texasdeathmatch

Debaters Hall of Fame Round 7

  • jashro44
  • Killemall
  • CadenceV2
  • Strider92
  • YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

Debaters Hall of Fame Round 8

  • Lvenger
  • Comicstooge
  • Dredeuced
  • Forever
  • Wyldsong

The Current Nominees

  • acewasp23
  • Alexander Anderson
  • allstarsuperman
  • ancient_of_days
  • Andferne
  • Baldy
  • bat_girl_cc
  • boschepg
  • bringnit
  • cable_extreme
  • CJDavis103
  • Chaos Prime
  • comicdude23
  • cosmicallyaware1
  • czarny_samael
  • Darkraiden
  • dccomicsrule2011
  • Decoy Elite
  • DedmanWalkin
  • Deranged Midget
  • Deathhero61
  • Difficlus
  • dondave
  • Edamame
  • Entropy_Aegis
  • esquire
  • fallschirmjager
  • Fetts
  • Fresh Prince
  • frozen
  • ghostravage
  • granitesoldier
  • higorm
  • highaccuser
  • homicidalmaniac
  • i_like_swords
  • iLLituracy
  • Illuminatus
  • iragexcudder
  • isaac_clarke
  • juiceboks
  • joygirl
  • jwalser3
  • jmarshmallow
  • kidman560/Serrue
  • Knightsofdarkness2
  • killerwasp
  • Lady_Liberty
  • laflux
  • Mercy_
  • monsterstomp
  • Mr_igenuity
  • New_World_Order
  • Neongamewave
  • nickzambuto
  • nickthedevil
  • Nightunder
  • Nobody/The_Martian
  • omgomgwtfwtf
  • Owie
  • Oreoassassin
  • Oceanmaster21
  • pope052
  • pr0metheus
  • princearagorn1
  • progenitor
  • PunkMastaFlex/Susanoo
  • reaverlation
  • ReVamp
  • Sexy Merc
  • Sherlock
  • shootingnova
  • Slimj87D
  • Shroudofsorrows
  • Son Of Storm
  • Sophia89
  • sovereign91001
  • TDK_1997
  • the_man_of_yesteryear
  • The_stegman
  • theacidskull
  • thetruebarryallen
  • tomlikesfries
  • tparks
  • unbreakable_fs4
  • veshark
  • White Mage
  • wolfrazer
  • willpayton
  • Wolverine08
  • XiiX

325 Comments