higherpower

I came, I saw, I conquered.

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#2  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

Prep

Within the first few seconds of prep, Origin will map out and memorize every square inch of the Temple of Anubis using his senses. He has used his inertial sensors to scan the entire city of Tokyo with greater strength than a GPS signal in order to find his home while hundreds of meters underground.

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Bloodshot also has great enhanced senses but this is Origin's bag. He's a superior version of the same model of cyborg as Kan, who was able to track a girl's scent across regions by analyzing the data of her molecules that passed through any space she was in for hundreds of kilometers, also informing him of her mental state.

So at the start my team will the know the full layout of the map as well as the position of every guard and civilian. With this information communicated, Bloodshot will use his technopathy to remotely hack all the technology present within the Temple of Anubis. He's able to easily hijack communication lines which include radio signals. You made sure to mention that your team will be communicating through earpieces, so once the match starts, my duo will be privvy to all your teams plans, strategies, whereabouts, and movements throughout the match. We will be aware of every piece of technology, every room, every camera, and every hidden corridor. Your position won't known to us until prep concludes and the match starts but this is still a distinct advantage.

Next we'll set up the turrets at the following locations indicated by the stars:

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Strategy

My duo will split up when the match starts. Origin will stay behind at Point A to protect the medic, while Bloodshot will be my advancing member who's job is to find your team and your medic and eliminate them all. The reasoning for this is pretty simple, Bloodshot has made sport out of tracking and hunting persons of interest and he's also much harder to put down than Origin is, although Origin is more dangerous as a fighter, that's something that will be put into good use defending my medic.

Thanks to hacking your earpieces it won't take long at all to find where you guys are considering we already know and have mapped every square inch of the Temple. So your cloaking spells are kinda useless, I'll at least immediately know the general area you're in. The next thing to do will be to hack all the Terminators on your team and turn them against you without you knowing until the moment they start attacking. Bloodshot can accomplish this with a thought. He's able to remotely shutdown the internal systems of cybernetic opponents and hack into the neural implants of HARD Corps members with ease.

Bloodshot's nanites can simply interface and override any kind of machinery, technology, or electronics present on the battlefield here. If there are any doubts to the range, scale, and power at which his technopathy operates, look no further than this absurd feat, where he short-circuits the power grid of an entire country:

Once Bloodshot comes into the presence the smallest electrical signal, he is able to see everything. His nanites connect with everything that has an electrical pulse and he basically becomes becomes omni-aware of everything happening around him on a massive scale. His nanites can enter people as well as machinery and he can track them over great distances.

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Once the Terminators are hacked, you're advancing members will have to first deal with them and the turrets firing at you before they can progress anywhere near the absolute monster that is Origin. But Bloodshot will have a much easier time dispatching your team with the numbers now in my favor.

First of all, Bloodshot can go invisible quite easily. He makes it clear his nanites can not be tracked inside this mode.

Bloodshot can easily kill Seras and Riza by sneaking up on them, shooting them, or slicing their throats. But he also is pretty versatile offensively for a street leveler. Bloodshot can use his sonic screech to burst the eardrums of soldier's wearing earplugs. This can be used to temporarily disorient your characters if they've never encountered sonics before, since your ears are directly connected to your center of balance. Additionally, since he'll be invisible this will directly contribute to the chaos and confusion of the Terminator mutiny and the turrets gunning down everyone, and leave them wide open.

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He can also vomit onto his opponents. The sub-atomic nanites proceed to destroy them from the inside out. Bloodshot has actually done this in combat.

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He can also fire blasts of concentrated radiation which as you should know kills cells.

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As soon as Bloodshot eliminates them he can shapeshift into either one of them as disguise. Then he can turn visible and while posing as one of your team members, he can easily enter the perimeter that Hermoine set up to protect the medic and then just one shot them both. Bloodshot has literally done this EXACT strategy before multiple times. Shapeshifting into people he's killed or simply disguising himself to get access to locations and easy kills. He can even mimic voices.

I haven't bothered posting stats for my characters because they should be indicated by their point value. They're both bullet timers, small building level, etc. If you contest this then I'll post those feats, although Geek has assessed all of that before assigning point values. Combat wise the only character you have that can stand up to either of mine in direct combat is Seras, and she has no counter for the invisibility assassination. She also can't put Bloodshot down, his regeneration and other powers are based on nanites inside his blood. He can come back from being blown up by missiles. Here is a very detailed overview of the nanites and their capabilities.

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The largest takeaway from this is that Bloodshot's nanites have the ability to "create, manipulate and destroy matter on a subatomic level." Sub-atomic regeneration is very hard to stop. In the medical application section, we are also expressly informed that the nanites possess the ability to reconnect torn skin, arteries, muscle tissue, nerve fiber, and rebuild bone. They also repair and reconstruct damaged internal organs to allow complete recovery from extreme traumatic injury. The nanites physiological responses also allow Bloodshot to survive extended exposure to hostile and toxic environments, radiation, extreme hot and cold, atmospheric pressure, low-oxygen environments and long-term lack of food and water.

Last but not least, if push comes to shove Bloodshot can use his synaptic burst to drop your entire team at once. The synaptic burst is exactly what it sounds like, Bloodshot's nanites releases some kind of wave of invisible energy to burst your synapses. He's immune toi Toyo's TP thanks to this ability and is able to shut down the brain activity of anyone that isn't an Omega level psiot (telepath) like Toyo. He can easily turn your brains to mush once he's on your side of the map.

Conclusion

  • We map out the base during prep.
  • We set up the turrets at the designated locations.
  • Once the match starts Bloodshot hacks your earpieces, gaining all the information on your team about your strategy and plan of attack, and then deducing where you guys are.
  • Bloodshot turns invisible and advances while Origin stays back and chills with the medic behind the turrets.
  • Bloodshot hacks the Terminators and turns them against your team.
  • While invisible Bloodshot uses any of his versatile offensive attacks (gutting them, shooting them, barfing atom-eating nanites, sonic screech, synapse burst, radiation poisoning blast) to eliminate Seras and Riza.
  • He shapeshifts to either Seras or Riza to infiltrate the perimeter Hermoine sets.
  • He killes Hermoine and the medic.

Alternatively, he uses synpase blast once he's close enough to drop every member of your team, the medic and and all the guards. Depending on your counter we'll talk more about Origin, but this should be enough for an opening strategy.

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#3 higherpower  Moderator

put mass and thenamelessone against each other pls & thx

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#5 higherpower  Moderator

@youngjustice said:
@professorrespect said:
@cosmicdude said:

One question I have is does Reed's brainpower automatically also give Reed's memories?

I answered this when Kev asked about it

It gives you the equal brainpower of the individual, not their respective knowledge.

oh wow, did not realize that.

I figured it was obvious from "brainpower" being in there. Higherpower did ask about it though so clearly not!

I already knew that, it changes nothing because the intention is still to allow any character with the perk the ability to build things Reed has built. Which is all I did. You said that yourself unless Kev paraphrased you

regardless the perk would be overpriced and completely useless if i can't use Reed's feats to demonstrate what his intelligence can accomplish

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#8  Edited By higherpower  Moderator

@youngjustice: I'll start by highlighting things that went unaddressed or you didn't update your counters to:

  • The Anti-Matter Guns, The Entropy Guns, and the Shrink Rays. Without the ability to slow them down, there are no counters to any of these as far as I'm concerned, not that I expected there to be.
  • The Engineer's nanites which have completely permeated the atmosphere, fused with the planet & can slip in-between your characters atoms to slice them apart on the sub-atomic level autonomously & instantly.
  • You outright conceded The Anti-Matter Bombs would kill your team & this concession was not reversed. You only tried to argue I'd eliminate some of my team as well via friendly fire, which I'll demonstrate is wrong.
  • You also neglected to post any actual cold resistance from any member of your team. Your only counter to being immediately flash frozen upon spawning is using Manifold's portals to summon energy from the Sun, something there is no evidence he can do if he's already frozen beforehand.

In other words, virtually every single primary win condition I laid out from the onset remains unchallenged. This is a very open and shut battle because you never once actually contested any of these things being accomplished during prep. You only chose to fight against the Kang stuff and Spawn. So let's talk about that.

Rebuttals

You’re purposely leaving out the very big point that a large reason Reed was capable of getting away with any of this was because Reed and Kang share DNA, not due to the Scion suit being so impossible to detect.

I wouldn't expect the average person to be familiar with Kang's convoluted origin story so I'll excuse your ignorance here. Kang is not a descedent of Reed Richards, which is a common misconception. As established in Fantastic Four (1984) #272-273, Kang is a descendent of the family Nathaniel Richards started with a woman named Cassandra after moving to Earth-6311. He's a distant descendent of Reed's alternate timeline half-brother* named Arthur, not him, or anything from 616.

Considering how greatly DNA is diluted through generations, the fact that Arthur is essentially his ancestor across centuries and branched off from a different timeline/future means while technically related, Kang doesn't share any DNA with Reed himself; they only have Nathaniel in common, and on completely different levels as their cousinship is many times removed (For Kang he'd have less than < 1% of Nathaniel's DNA compared to Reed's 50%). Kang reiterates and confirms this in Avengers #269.

The Scion Suit gave Reed identical DNA to Kang, allowing him to enter Neverspace. Neverspace was keyed to Kang’s genetic code. Kang himself, not his entire bloodline. That means access is granted on the same merit as any other biometric verification, such as modern-day fingerprint scans or retina scans. Even being an immediate relative wouldn’t allow you access, much less a descendant or ancestor... this is why Immortus and the other Kangs believed that Reed was literally a version of themselves. Based on the Pym instance, that scales you to the suits capabilities.

Says who? The Scion armor only existed for one issue (Fantastic Four 2018 #35) in the entirety of comics and all it did in that issue was travel through time. Even when Reed did his huge reveal, he took the armor off in favor of fighting the Kang’s with his elasticity. There is no proof that this armor has any battle potential, much less that it’d do 95% of the things you are claiming.

"Says who" Says Kang, that's kind of the whole point.

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Besides being considered their eldest version and superior to them all on the basis of the suit and sabotaging their time travels undetected, including countering/reversing the Kang's attacks with the suits time manip powers, I think what you're missing here is that the argument I'm making is Reed is *capable* of creating Kang's armor based on the combination of this feat in tandem with 1) his knowledge of Marvel Universe, 2) his other prep feats, and 3) his many encounters with Kang's technology.

Reed also clearly implies that the armor has battle potential and can perform some of Kang's abilities when he told them that he de-aged himself and Ben to children while aging up Sue and Johnny to elders, and all the Kang's believed him, because they know it's something a Kang is capable of. He obviously didn't actually kill the FF, but it means he clearly has Kang's time manipulation abilities and has the means to do this.

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You're right that the Scion Suit didn't perform most of the techniques I'm arguing here, but neither did Kang himself, Immortus, Rama-Tut, or Red Centurion in that issue as well. It doesn't mean that they can't. Judging capabilities in isolation does a dissersive to the character by misrepresenting their potential when arguing them holistically, which applies to what the Engineer can accomplish during prep with Reed's brainpower. I'll take this opportunity to skip ahead and address your most egregious statement in the post concerning the plausibility of my strategy and this argument:

Reed has a ton of capabilities (even some related to time, he literally just “beat” Rama Tut in the most recent issue of Fantastic Four!), but you’ve barely shown his own intellect.

I've barely shown Reed's intellect? Even though I've posted his knowledge and intelligence informing cosmic powers with step-by-step details of how to recreate the entire universe from scratch?

Even though I showed Molecule Man giving Reed the power of the Beyonders to rebuild the Marvel Multiverse after it was destroyed in Secret Wars along with Franklin, exhibiting how even multiversal characters defer to Reed's brainpower/knowledge/intellect?

I showed Reed's brainpower handling the Watcher's knowledge downloaded directly into his brain. It was supposed to kill him instantly but he lasted much longer than Fury thought. The Watchers are very close to omniscient: They're cosmic beings who've observed worlds from across the universe since its birth, every detail, and Uatu in particular can also see infinite possible realities and timelines. Reed even exclaims after doing so that he "knows everything" after downloading their knowledge. But somehow I haven't shown his intellect?

Let's talk more about that feat and its story arc actually, the Reckoning War. Just recently Uatu revealed the true origins of the Ultimate Nullifier. The Watcher Emnu built it using their knowledge in order to stop the Reckoning, the race of alien warlords that had previously nearly conquered the known universe (and had returned again empowered by the shards of the M'kraan Crystal in the Reckoning War). Emnu obliterated 9/10ths of the universe with a single shot to stop them. This is why the Watcher's have chosen never to interfere with any events of the universe since.

Reed's mind is powerful enough that he showed he could expand upon the knowledge of the Watcher's and still build things they don't know how to build (i.e, constructing a Forever Gate on the fly with random raw materials!) even though they know everything, and their technological knowledge is what allowed Emnu to create the Ultimate Nullifer. Same way Franklin was able to gain an upperhand on Ruin in thoughtspace even though he had all the technological knowledge of the Watcher's, because Franklin could imagine whole universes since he was a child.

What you don't seem to be getting is the fact that I don't have Reed. I have Angela Spica, the Engineer, someone with incredible technopathic feats already, who is now empowered by Reed Richard's brainpower; which here refers to his intellect as can be applied to the construction of items, technology, or weapons. I'm not limited by Reed's moral character, his habits, tendencies, biases or behavior patterns. My only responsibility is to prove that Reed is smart enough to build anything I've argued Angela recreating with nanites, as she can instantly conjure any technology she understands.

I have done that beyond a shadow of doubt. There is no logical argument you can make against Reed being smart enough to make Kang's armor if he wanted, based on the fact that the Scion Suit was "cobbled together" in a matter of minutes and allowed him to infiltrate and fool the Council of Kangs into thinking he the same being as them, and he time traveled in tandem with them. Reed is smarter than Kang and is clearly familiar with his tech. That's all I need. It doesn't matter that he chose his elasticity to fight him, he did that on another occasion as well.

I don’t really see any evidence that they can stop forceful time travel? Although I’m not really sure that them being able to helps your team. If we can’t force them back through time, than they just stay stuck in the future and my team gets a reprieve until time catches up to the present.

Why would we stay stuck anywhere if we can time travel?? Whether you go to the future or the past doesn't matter, your actions can be matched, so it's not an advantage for you. And as I showed, any action that creates paradoxes just bodes well in my favor.

No, your team has not been turned into Kang’s. You have shown the ability to at best recreate the Scion armor, which has zero combat showings and was such a non-factor that Fantastic fought Kang without it.

Outside of the fact that I have no faith in Reed’s brainpower being able to do these Kang shenanigans, it should also be stated that being Kang also requires skill. Kang is not a master of time simply because of his armor, his knowledge of time has allowed him to master it in all of its intricacies. Reed certainly has experience with time travel, but it is minuscule in comparison to Kang. He not only would have to somehow come up with the plans to create these things (why of all of the things that he could create, would he make Kang armor without full knowledge of my team?) , but he would also have to come up with the ideas, ingredients, and equipment to create these things on a whim. The Baxter Building nor Angela’s Nantes guarantee the likely very intricate materials and recipes needed to craft the things you’re claiming.

Reed was able to construct a forever gate on the fly with random raw materials to access the apex of all reality during the Reckoning War. Angela equipped with his brainpower would be able to remake any piece of tech he's used and understands. This includes the Watcher's sub-atronic time displacer, which Reed used to forcibly BFR through time and reset the memories of the army of supervillains that Doctor Doom assembled to sabotage Reed's wedding with Sue, which notably included Kang himself, the time traveler.

The sub-atronic time displacer was a piece of technology that was completely foreign to Reed that he had just encountered for the first time but innately understood and intuitively knew how to use, and was able to discern its properties from looking at it and decided it would be the most appropriate tool for dealing with the threat that Doom wrought upon him.

So let's think about this logically, because you're not factoring in The Engineer's abilities at all into the decision, or the fact my characters have future sight during prep. Angela is living, liquid metal and her senses alone allow her to measure the magneton radiation of an entire planet...

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and analyze the composition of superhumans with radiotelepathy to determine their genetic makeup.

She was able to create a shapeshifting armor around herself instantly that she used for deep space exploration, with Reed's brainpower and her nanites esentially making her a technopath Green Lantern (or more aptly a lower tier Cyborg Supes) she could easily form the Scion Suit or any other suit of armor that Reed can make.

But I'm not going to put all my eggs in one basket. I believe my argument is solid but you're truthfully not the first person to be skeptical of Reed achieving Kang's suit, even though he certainly can if he wanted, but he has better feats. Without needing to retcon my prep or introduce new arguments in my closer, I will point you to the fact that I mentioned Reed has the ability to make the Ultimate Nullifier. I don't need to actually use it against you as its complete overkill but one of Reed's most impressive prep feats is the fact he was able to build an Ultimate Nullifier in a matter of minutes to neutralize Galactus during a fight, and he did it using spare parts from Galactus' tech that he didn't previously understand or had encountered. So what would be the argument against Engineer making the suit, when Reed has feats of using and creating technology he's unfamiliar with at a moments notice and using it to defeat cosmic threats? What's the argument against Angela creating any kind of one-shot gun against your team when she doesn't even need to "build" weapons the way Reed and most preppers do, she can simply shapeshift her body of living metal to produce any gun or technology she thinks of in her hands?

You're clearly at your wits end with this argument, because there is no real logic against it. These are two extraordinarily complimentary powersets. Engineer's nanites and Reed's brainpower fit together like a glove, and the possibilities are endless for what they can achieve during prep.

Ignoring that the nanites have fused with the planet and permeated the atmosphere and can atomically shred you just by you spawning in... I still have 80 Engineer clones posted around the battlefield. Ignoring all of the Kang stuff, the chronal bracelets I showed in my opener can make us invisible and spatiotemporally intangible while retaining our ability to attack you with an Ultimate Nullifier-class firearms barrage, shrink rays, Entropy Guns, Anti-Matter Guns, Cold Guns, etc. I really only went ham on the Kang stuff because you're dependent on time manipulation, but you said yourself that Reed is capable of time manip technology and just beat Rama-Tut with it. I can produce the sub-atronic time displacer Reed used against Kang and Doom and win that way as well. You have no outs.

Once again, they can’t attack at battle start (which is what your intending if you want them to put up these cold fields) with the actuality shell or time intangibility (things you still can’t prove you can actually do.) You have to be intangible to interact with the current time stream (as shown by the Starfox/Thanos scan), which means you’d kill your team too.

Besides that though, Synch retains powers even after someone is dead (as detailed earlier), so them being dead doesn’t really matter. We can also just go back in time to bring them back.

You quite literally just made all of that up, it's wishful thinking. The Cold Field would have been deployed before the battle started during prep, and my team would be immune to it either by way of having their own Cold Belt or being treated with negative radiation, as I've said. If you don't cosign the Kang arguments then the chronal field bracelets can serve the same function of cloaking us while retaining the ability to interact. I've posted all of this. Besides, you conceded that the Anti-Matter bombs would nuke your team, so chilling behind the protection of the Actuality Shell until you're dead is a viable strategy.

Time traveling is just prolonging the inevitable, you don't have an actual way to beat me. Making this a pointless chase is the best you can do. I have a multitude of ways to one-shot you when I catch you.

This is Kang (or his armor) actively hiding and not being on the same plane as the time reality he’s hiding from. If you want to attack me, you HAVE to be on this plane. You cannot have your cake and eat it too with his armor. If you want to hide out the entire match, sure this might work. But this entire aspect falls apart the second you realize that this is something that must be effectively in a battle.

Even in your own scans, Starfox has to slip back into the timeline to simply touch Thanos. What makes your think that this undetectability will be able to be used during this active in battle?

While you might be able to create a Kang like armor, saying that it will be able to do any of the things you’re claiming is the hugest reach you’ve made here. The only argument you’ve made that might hold water is that the armor can aid in time manipulation defense (undetectability) but that is put off by the fact that you have no combat feats of this (and have feats that would prove that this is something that can’t happen in combat.)

Hiding out until you want to attack pretty much achieves the same advantage, no? The element of suprise? Eros slipped back into the timeline to touch Thanos and then vanished again, what's difficult to understand to about the nature of such an ability? You will never be able to attack me competently without a way to detect my team consistently.

No.

To be fair, I got too busy to add in those Synch scans into my initial post so I can’t entirely blame you for not getting how incorrect you are here, but still. There is no way you actually researched Synch at all because since his revival his powers have been significantly upgraded.

In terms of his general ability to remote power copy, this scan answers your question.

After being resurrected on Krakoa, his powers increased to be able to synch with anyone from muscle memory. The only caveat being that it slowly drains his overall life force, but that aspect doesn’t matter in this confined battle.

Again, this is no different from anything Parasite can do. Parasite doesn't have the limits that he does, it doesn't drain his life force, he can copy multiple people in quick succession, he can absorb energy and steal powers as well, not just copy them. Furthermore, his ability was never contingent on range to begin with. The presence of Synch in this match means nothing insofar as giving you an edge with the ability to copy your teammates powers. The only thing that's relevant is whether or not he can use Jean's TP on any occasion, which he's literally never done without her presence. The TP feat you posted is pitiful compared to things that Cable has done and there's no proof it was specifically Jean's.

Even if he could use Jean's TP, Parasite can use MMH's TP, in conjunction with Cable's and The Engineer has a nano-virus that breaks people free from telepathic control.

Okay I see you have not touched on the fact that the sun projectiles would negate the cold field, just want to note that.

Additionally, in all of these scans you’ve shown of it, the cold field is shown to slow considerably, but not actually freeze completely. There is no reason Manifold can’t teleport us out of it and move further away, where we can continue our attack as planned.

Although none of this really matters because you don’t have battlefield prep. The cold field feats all show/imply battlefield prep from Captain Cold which you don’t have here. You’d have to argue that the cold fields can go up before my team moves from the area to avoid them (which we’ll know due to prep.) With Synch and Tempo’s speed boost, I don’t really think it’s logical for these to be active before my team gets their feet off the ground.

I see you have not touched on the fact that there's no proof you can summon the Sun projectiles once you spawn into the cold field. You would already be frozen. Your characters have no feats of operating when frozen. The Cold Wave that you'll be inside wouldn't let you use any thought-activated abilities either, your brain functions would cease as you're thoroughly frozen. Everyone caught in the Cold Wave was suspended animation, they weren't icicles. It's essentially a stasis field that negates the activity of matter and particles.

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When the Flash undid the Cold Wave no one had any memory of it, it was like they were stopped in time but resumed as normal. This is a win condition you don't have a counter to. There's no proof that Flash would have been able to stop the attack if he was caught in the initial wave.

With that being said, I do think that Rachel is in general, equal to Cable in the overall TP wheelhouse (see intro box for Rachel.)

But Rachel isn’t alone here, she’s working in unison with three other very adept telepaths. I don’t see a world where Psycho Man is able to best the three of them.

Rachel is your best telepath and Psycho Man already bested someone who in your opinion is just as strong as her, there's no reason why he or the Control Box (coded into his suit) wouldn't shut down everybody...

Are you genuinely implying that him hacking Latveria means he just understands how to build Doom’s tech?

...Yes??? Based on his many feats of innately understanding alien technology that he's never encountered, or is thousands of years more advanced than his, or perceiving how to construct things he's never used before, or his countless fights against Doom, or the fact that hacking something quite literally does require you to understand its mechanics and how it operates?

Spawn stuff

Part of the reason why this post took so long is because I lost so much interest after reading the Spawn arguments. This entire section is you denying Spawn's capabilities because I used scaling to demonstrate them. Spawn isn't a character that's overly reliant on scaling and he performs most of his feats that are related to his powerset directly, but when it comes to raw stats he simply doesn't do things like planet bust as there's never a story reason for him to do so, or battle location that takes place in that kind of setting. But that doesn't mean he can't, and it's irrational to demand feats of him doing so when he's shown clear-cut parity or superiority to characters who have done so on a consistent basis.

Son Goku from Dragon Ball Z has never intentionally destroyed a planet, ever, in the 40 years that his character has been in publication. Does that mean Goku can't planet bust? No, he is clearly capable of planet busting and so much more, based on his battles with characters that either have done so, are stated able to do so, or do both equivalent things and much more impressive things that require more energy to do so.

Those are the same scans you showed before. Those are statements, I’d like to see him ACTUALLY doing these things. The fact that you still haven’t shown that is such a clear indicator that he never was shown operating at the capacity of Malebolgia. Statements mean nothing if they’re never backed up on.

Why on earth would durability be something transferable via scaling? You keep making these claims SOLELY based on scaling with no actual evidence of Spawn being able to do this himself. When has this form of Spawn no sold a star level attack? And when I ask that, I don’t mean for you to reply that, “Well he beat this person who theoretically can send out star level attacks.”, but I’d like actual proof of this happening.

I’ll touch on this more later but I feel like you know Spawn is hugely inconsistent so you’re relying of scaling to show consistency. When in reality, he’s not even consistently battling opponents that would make him anywhere close to the level you’re debating him at. Spawn has good high ends, but they’re plagued with wonky circumstances or inconsistent follow ups that negate the impact of those high ends.

Yeah but you haven’t though? You’ve shown some amazing Angela and peak Malebolgia feats, but absolutely no feats that put Spawn at tourney limits. And when I say absolutely none I literally mean ABSOLUTELY none, there is not one Spawn scan here (and when I say Spawn scan I mean a scan with SPAWN in it) that would put him at near tourney cap.

When you asked me for proof of Synch’s abilities, I gave you them with no fuss. I simply ask you for feats of your premiere tank doing these tourney cap level things that you claim, and you have skirted around it. You give me one set of scans and it’s a misrepresentation that doesn’t even prove the type of durability we are discussing here.

Throughout this entire debate, you have spent it focusing on characters that you don’t own. You have banked on me allowing you to theorycraft your way through this battle in a way that is illogical.

Spawn is not Malebolgia, nor Angela. Malebolgia at his weakest was tanking Spawn at what appeared to be his best, and it took Angela’s lance slice to take him down. Spawn is the lead character in a series that spanned three hundred issues in its title series, why is it so hard to show consistent feats of him. Matter of fact, you really don’t even have to worry about consistency too much because hes composite, but you didn’t show ANYTHING. If he has the material, why not show it in your first post instead of spending the first 4 sections of your Spawn opener on Angela and Malebolgia?

Because of this argument here you are henceforth NOT allowed to bitch and moan about scan dumps or complain to Stalin about how voters should not take the feats I'm going to post into consideration. The sentiment that you're trying to push here is that Spawn is an inconsistent character who doesn't operate at the level I'm arguing because he doesn't have direct feats of doing things that lesser characters have done. Composite Spawn has a ton of feats, enough to fill multiple respect threads, and too many to go over in an individual post, so obviously my approach to presenting his capabilities in this match was opting to scale him to the most straightforward, accessible, and digestible showings within limits. Spawn is not Angela and he is not Malebolgia, no, but he is demonstrably more powerful than them when composite.

He has never personally destroyed a star but that is not neccessary to prove as you quite literally don't have any star level characters anyway? You already conceded to planet busting anti-matter bombs, so Spawn can vaporize your entire team with his presence by just unleashing a wave of energy from his body. Spawn was able to subjugate every Hellspawn that Satan, Malebolgia and Leviathan ever created, send them to Hell, and then eviscerated every being on Earth with one blast (the resurrected Armies and the Angels).

The Resurrected Armies are stated to be transformed into demons to usher in Armageddon, not Hellspawn. If you're wondering how powerful demons are, look no further than Phlemon casually obliterating an entire planet with a thought.

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Spawn vaporized billions of these creatures and trounced the Hellspawn, he made God and Satan unite against him to try and stop him. Is that good enough for you? A direct feat from Spawn, not Angela or Malbolgia. He casually lifewiped the planet and erased both the armies of Heaven and Hell and ignored the combined attacks of God and Satan after, keep in mind Satan CREATED Malebolgia, Hell, and all the Hell Kings and has overpowered him with no effort, and God obviously created the Angels.

So try to ask me some nonsense again about whether Spawn scales to Malebolgia or Angela.

Conclusion

You tried, but there's no way this battle realistically ends any other way. Your whole spiel against Spawn was rooting in casting doubt about whether he consistently operates at the limits or if, when composite, he could scale to the feats of weaker characters. But NO ONE on your team is as strong as Malebolgia or Angela anyway? See if you can follow this line of logic: Spawn has defeated both Malebolgia and Angela in battle and also has the statements backing up the scaling. Angela has star level AP and durability and Malebolgia is even stronger than her. None of your characters are close to star level, wouldn't Spawn's relevativity to them prove that he's capable of solo'ing your team?

People's number one concern and biggest takeaway from this is going to be whether or not Spawn is in limits, not if he's actually an "inconsistent mid tier" like you said he was. His best pre-God Spawn feat would be erasing the resurrected armies of Heaven and Hell and defeating every Hellspawn that ever existed, and there are demons with casual planet busting feats, and Angels like Abdiel who have exploded stars and tanked their supernovas. Without arguing him over star level directly Spawn has the feats necessary to say he can steamroll entire armies of planetary characters and being star level at best means you can match him directly, but not overpower him.

Your entire stance on this topic was to essentially invalidate the point of scaling, saying scaling and statements don't matter without feats. By that logic Goku wouldn't even be planet level.

As far as the rest of my team, particularly with the Engineer and the Kang stuff, I think I defended my point well that the Engineer can create any tool or weapon or item of technology she understands, and Reed is smart enough to create nearly anything in Marvel. He has actual feats of creating weapons like the Ultimate Nullifier, he's used the Infinity Gauntlet before, he used the Watcher's technology, made use of the Badoon's tech and even Galactus' tech, he's hacked all of Doom's technology in Latveria and he's created the Scion Suit, which is a replica of a Kang armor that can time travel and potentially use time manipulation offensively. Th Engineer backed by 80 clones all with Reed's brainpower as well as the nanites having fused with any metal on the planet are limited only by their imagination. We can mass produce planet-busting anti-matter bombs, Entropy Guns, Anti-Matter Guns, Cold Guns, and Shrink Rays, Control Box tech and draining tech.

We can counter all your time travel shenanigans, counter and overwhelm your TP, you still have no counter to the imperceptible nanites in the atmosphere shredding you on the sub-atomic level, or being flash frozen in a stasis field that ceases your brain activity and prevents you from using any thought -activated powers like summoning solar energy, said energy that can be drained or absorbed by the Engineer's shields or Parasite. Last but not least you have absolutely no answer for Spawn, you never bothered to counter his soul destruction, atomic destruction, or his energy projection which vaporized armies of at least planet level to potentially star level characters.

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higherpower

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#10 higherpower  Moderator

@geekryan: That post was meant to be confirmation, I didn’t see your others. Same team no changes.