unfinished post

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Final Counters

@sophia89 said:

This will be my final post. GV and I agreed to keep the CAV short, so I’ll answer or explain things I did not do in my previous posts, and my conclusion in this post.

Likewise

First, I’d like to say that GV made this fun and was a really cool debater.

There is no counter for this

Thanks though, same to you

Second, I was not portraying Gremmy as a fodder ninja. Madara killed an entire army of fodder ninja with ease while holding back. If it wasn’t for three kage level ninja with them (Naruto, Onooki, and Gaara), they would have been killed by just his taijutsu and basic ninjutsu. So, anyways, lets jump right in.

True

While Kakashi’s wall managed to keep Obito’s fire from reaching him, Madara is on a completely different tier and his fire release is also on a completely different tier. Obito without Kamui lost to Kakashi, and even with the juubi upgrade he was still not fast enough to keep up with Tobiama and Minato, and Naruto and Sasuke were reacting to him.

Everyone knows Madara is stronger than Obito. The point I was getting at is that stone walls are good counters to fire release, which they can be. Obviously if the scale and power of the fire is greater, so must the strength and fortification of the wall

Normal Madara, on the other hand, reacted to Tobirama, blitzed Naruto, and Sasuke couldn’t react or tag him. A giant hand can’t block Madara’s fire attack; otherwise, Choji who can make a giant everything would have blocked it or Naruto who could also at the time make his hand bigger would have blocked it; instead of wasting so much of his chakra to protect the alliance from being roasted.

Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it's not possible to happen. By that logic, all statements for character power levels are completely invalid; for example, Momoshiki being continent level by Sasuke's statements, which you later refer to in your next post. I see what you're getting at, but it's really not my fault that Choji didn't do that. Maybe the fire was too hot for his hand to hold, and if that's the case, it won't be a problem for Gremmy because he's not using his hands

The version of Naruto that blocked Sasuke’s fire release is him in god tier in the NV. In that form he blocked Toneri’s moon splitting beam, and was able to contain and tank a blast said to be capable of wiping out multiple countries in Boruto. So not exactly a normal hand.

He's also gotten stronger after the series ended, so the feats don't transfer. And Sasuke was referring to Naruto, not Momoshiki

As for the water release stopping it. Keep in mind that the water release that was used was “Water wall” it supposed to create a massive water wall to block attacks then stay until the user uses the water for an attack or undoes the jutsu.

If Gremmy can imagine walls of stone and blocks of water, there's nothing stopping him from imagining walls of water

To give a similar degree, when the third Raikage was fighting and they asked for an earth release, mud wall. The mud wall was massive in height, width, and length. Madara’s fire release went through it with one shot and before they even know what happened Madara’s second release was hitting him. So, Gremmy can’t block that with a simple cube of water or stone walls.

If the first two strategies don't work, he can redirect the fire or imagine it as something else

I already said he will use his massive stone tower to escape it, but at the time Madara will have 16 clones attacking it from everywhere with their own fire release. And as your own scan showed, a weaker fire release went through stone.

My points still stand, this doesn't debunk anything

What I meant about Gremmy being distracted is not him getting distracted by some shiny keys, I meant that he will be so focused on killing Madara that he won’t focus if he is walking into a trap or that he is in a bind and should retreat.

Depends on what kind of trap we're talking about. If it's anything like the counters you've already given, then it's definitely not working. Gremmy being bloodlusted and using the power of imagination only means Madara dies faster

Edo tensei binds the soul to Earth and uses a human sacrifice as the building block. So, Madara forced his soul to dirt and kept fighting the kages while everyone else was turning into dirt. It wasn't till a bit later that he undid the jutsu from his own side, but he still forced his body to stay in dirt.

The edo tensei is a lot more complicated than that, but basically what you're trying to say is Madara can have his soul in objects and fight effectively right? Well, first that would be with prep, and second the nature of Gremmy's imagination is different from a technique with overly complicated prerequisites. Attaining a human sacrfice, gaining the dead person's DNA, etc. Basically, binding a persons soul to earth isn't the same as being transmuted before you realize it. They are similar but how the person reacts can be different depending on the smallest factors. So no, we cannot equate the two

While the shockwaves will be limited to the ground, as you have stated. Once the meteors impacts they create massive dust and ash clouds that cover very massive distance. For example, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs (one of the theories of what killed the dinosaurs, anyways) killed some in the immediate vicinity from the impact, but killed the rest from the dust/ash clouds it created. If Gremmy doesn’t climb very high up then he will be in total blindness and if he breathes (Since his body is not real, I don’t know if he breathes) he will choke to death. If he imagines that the air around him is clear, then more will just replace it as there will so much. The meteor that killed the dinosaurs was about 6 miles in size (Source), each meteor we’re bringing down is much bigger than that and we’re bringing multiple of those. (Side note: Madara’s first meteor helped ease up the damage the second created).

The response to this entire paragraph is simple: Regeneration. Dust and ash isn't killing Gremmy, he would simply imagined the damaged parts healed. I don't really know how he'd be able to see, but I'm sure he can just sense Madara's immense spiritual pressure (shared universe) which would give off his location

Madara could use Limbo before becoming Juudara. It was what he used to one shot the bijuu and hold sasuke in place while stabbing him. It was first seen in chapter 659 (Scan).

Thanks for the scan. I genuinely forgot so my apologies

The NV characters can transform into very small stones or shurkinens (Keep in mind when they become shurkins they lose weight as well so they can be thrown). So, being Turned into one, doesn’t mean Madara is stuck.

This doesn't really make sense, Madara using transformation ninjutsu on himself and willingly coming back from

Since the transformation jutsu is among the most simple jutsus in the NV it wouldn’t be a stretch for Madara to transform back. Or transform his organs back.

It would be a stretch for him to transform back, because it's only possible to do something like that with transformation jutsu, which aren't permanent and can be reversed at anytime. And Gremmy doesn't use transformation jutsu, so reversing Gremmy's transmutation by using the same way to undo a transformation jutsu wouldn't make sense. Just because they have the similar end results doesn't mean the process is the same, so they should not be treated as the same thing

As for the HF means nothing to transformation. Keep in mind that losing an organ and being cool is the same as having it turn into stone. You’re not using it either way, only difference is with Gremmy it will transform back once he has to do a different thing.

Losing an organ is not the same as having one being turned into stone. It's true that you don't have it anymore either way, but if Madara had his heart turned to stone, he couldn't regenerate a new heart. If Boa Hancock hit Madara with a love beam and turned his body into stone, he couldn't regenerate a new body. And Gremmy won't have to transform Madara back, one he is in pebble form Gremmy would have essentially won

The lava thing is actually a good strategy. Kudos. However, since Madara will have hid and left his clones to fight, Gremmy can’t do that to him as he can’t imagine anything on something/someone he can’t see.

He couldn't see Yachiru's bones but he still changed it, and he couldn't remember who Lee was but still erased his existence. So he can change Madara's bloodstream by imagining it, whether he could see Madara's body or not. The fight will be starting face to face anyway.

And after seeing his clones’s bloodstream turn into lava, he will completely avoid a direct confrontation and use clones or summonings to fight.

Not if his own is turned first, and Madara will start the fight off with his real body facing Gremmy, then he would summon clones to run away but by that time Gremmy would have completed a thought

And if and when he gets in direct confrontation he will have the substitute jutsu on speed dial. The instant he sees Gremmy’s brain lighting up he is gone.

Substitution jutsu is pretty handy to escape the vicinity, but Gremmy would still sense where he is, and Madara woud eventually have to converge to attack

I wasn’t making the case that Madara will spirit crush Gremmy, but rather that Gremmy can’t spirit crush Madara. I then covered all possibilities (I.E. shared Universe means Madara is the one with more spirit energy. Even without SU NV’s chakra is a combination of both Physical/mental/spiritual energies so still has enough SE to resist a SC, and even if we go solely by Bleach’s rules, then Madara is a normal human thus immune to the SC).

I thought you were making the case that Madara had more energy than Gremmy (which is true) so he would spirit crush him. But I never intended to use spirit crush as a real way to win, it's cheap and boring and would be unfair.

The clones are inorganic beings, so turning their organs into stone won't effect them as it is already fake. Only Lava will work.

It would still incapacitate them, and he can just imagine them as lava entirely

Susanoo is not a thin blade; it is very thick. It won’t make a small cut in Gremmy like Kenpachi, but completely destroy his body.

He would still regenerate. Kenpachi's meteor busting slices in shikai are in the same tier as slices from Madara's Susanoo in terms of DC, at least by feats

In my 8 plans, I posted how Gremmy’s brain will be attacked. I’ll put them in spoilers below.

  1. Use his fire release, majestic flame destroyer
  2. Use a clone and have the clone blitz stab Gremmy in the brain with a chakra rod
  3. Use his Susanoo to smash Gremmy’s body completely (His incomplete susanoo did this).
  4. If all the above some failed, he can summon the ninetails and combine it with his PS and unleash multiple attacks that would completely vaporize anything in a multi mountain space

I've debunked the possibilities of a blitz already, and when I said that I was referring to genjutsu and such

My Conclusion

Madara is much faster. So, he will definitely have the first attack, and be able to set the dance to his way.

His first move was to make clones and hide. Gremmy would kill the clones and hunt Madara

Madara can see Gremmy’s brain and will know that he needs to target the brain. Madara is a strategic genius, and will use every and any thing to his advantage.

This is true

Madara’s sage mode grant him near infinite amount of chakra, so he won’t tire or run out of energy no matter how many big moves he pulls.

That wouldn't matter in the longer run, none of his big moves can do anything here

Madara’s sage mode + perception means that Gremmy can’t hide or sneak on him.

He doesn't have to

Madara has the number advantage 27:9, and each of his clones have the same powers as him.

All the clones will die

Madara’s Susanoo (Even imperfect) is too durable for any of Gremmy’s moves,

Gremmy's moves can ignore durability

so he has to focus on the Madaras inside,

He can do that without worrying about durability either

while making sure he doesn’t get hit from it as even imperfect is still strong enough to destroy his body.

Not stronger than Kenpachi's shikai

I still think this will be the most likely outcome:

The only thing I change in this scenario is Madara won't be directly in the final confrontation by himself, he will have a few clones with him in his PS to make sure Gremmy doesn't target him, and if he does he can substitute himself immediately (E.G. If Gremmy look at the real Madara and his brain starts lighting, Madara will substitute himself with one of the clones).

If those were the only things you changed, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. The fight will start with them in visual range of each other, then Madara's summons clones and dips. Doesn't really change anything, Gremmy's first attack will be to kill Madara

Conclusion

All of Madara's advantages can be countered by Gremmy's hax. His superior speed, strength, durability, and wider range of powers make for an interesting match, and Sophia has debated the full extent of Madara's powers excellently.

Many counters have been given to Gremmy's attacks that ignore durability, like the transformation jutsu (which was a great response), madara's soul remaining even when transmuted (which is true) and other ones. But none of them allow Madara to still win the fight in those states, rather they simply postpone his death and prolong his life. Gremmy can turn Madara's bloodstream into lava, or any internal organ or tissue or bone into something incredibly lethal. Even if Sophia gave a counter to that, the counter would only be so that Madara wouldn't die from it, but you honestly have to be high if you think Madara can fight and still beat someone when his bones are lava.

Gremmy can win if he's bloodlusted and doesn't job, that's all i have to say

Start the Conversation