By HigherPower 0 Comments
Alright let's dig in
Well, A: Gremmy has no TP resistance. No one in the Bleachverse does. The ultimate god tiers were effected by simple TP tricks (Aizen fell to an inverted illusion, and Yhwach fell to Aizen’s senses illusion, and then at the very end when he was the most powerful being in BV he was still effected by Aizen). However, none of this matters as I’ve restricted genjutsu.
Fair enough, and yes, it doesn't matter either way
B: What I mentioned is not a TP attack or an illusion. Madara can see the body and where ones’ powers come from. Madara was able to see Guy’s heart massively increase its chakra output and determined that this was Guy’s final attack as the heart can’t do that for long. So, since we’re going with shared universe concept, spirit energy = Chakra, and Madara will see Gremmy’s brain is what has chakra and what uses chakra when Gremmy uses his advanced form of Izanagi (This is what Madara will believe Gremmy’s power is. An advanced form of Izanagi). As for how he will attack Gremmy’s brain. I mentioned that in 4 out of my 8 possible possibilities.
Madara sees guy's heart and determines that it was a final attack:
You didn't mention strategies for how he would specifically attack Gremmy's brain (and only his brain) in your 8 possibilities earlier (your 1st counter post). And in the case of Kenpachi, Gremmy's true form only revealed itself after Gremmy committed suicide by accident. This leads me to believe his physical body has to die before his brain can be accessed and destroyed. Later I give several reasons why it won't be possible for Madara to accomplish this
Clone would also be under pressure. Gremmy has shown that his weakness is that he must concentrate to RW.
I've already proved why his weakness won't be applicable here in my opener. He'll be fighting one combatant, and will be concentrating on Madara and Madara only. And as for Madara's clones, Gremmy can answer back with his own (even though Madara can make more, it'd still serve as good distraction)
If pressure builds up, he won’t be able to concentrate enough. Having a massive sized, extremely hot and deadly, fast fire engulfing everything in its path makes concentrating hard, especially when it starts burning you and you have to start healing the damage and keeping your body sturdy so not to be disintegrated.
This is irrelevant to Gremmy, you're making this under the assumption he'll get tagged in the first place, and I've shown why he won't. He redirected a point blank explosion from his missiles by waving his hand
This, and the fact that he can control other elements(water, lava, earth) and even manipulate space (created a dimensional rift) allows me to believe his reality warping extends to element manipulation, so it's safe to say he should be able to manipulate fire, especially since he's manipulated lava, with is just earth + fire. Even if he couldn't, he would bend space, or materialize a giant hand to hold it like Naruto did:
As for your scans. The first one shows Obito’s fire release burning through Kakashi’s earth release.
It didn't completely topple Kakashi's wall, and Kakashi's body was still fine, which is my point. Not only that, the wall Kakashi used up is incredibly small, while Gremmy created this on a whim:
Gremmy can create massive stone blocks that dwarf buildings with zero effort. This can counter Madara's fire release. In fact, the height of this wall is comparable to the ones that the shinobi alliance used to redirect Bijuu bombs, except this one is thicker
Madara’s fire release is far more powerful than Obito’s.
Gremmy just needs to increase the magnitude of his defenses in accordance to the scale of Madara's release. And we've seen Madara's most powerful fire releases before, and their extent is nothing Gremmy can not overcome
The second and third shows multiple ninja working together to stop Madara’s first fire release, and their entire water wall evaporating on contact. Madara’s second fire release went through and burned a lot of ninja. So Gremmy stopping one, is an expected outcome; however, if he can keep concentrating on building walls and bodies of water, he won’t be able to attack and will be stuck on defense, while Madara will be learning more of Gremmy’s power and better strategizing.
Not practical at all. This entire debate you've been under the assumption Gremmy can't spam any of his attacks or defense, which he can, and it'd be within your best interest to stop comparing Gremmy to fodder ninja, and here's why:
- I've given 4 viable options Gremmy has to counter fire release(blocking it, redirecting it, countering it, or defending against it)
- Gremmy's concentration weakness is non-applicable here and was addressed and nulled in the opener. You're acting as if Madara can do 9 different things at once and Gremmy has to keep up with all of them (dividing his concentration and power). He won't be "stuck" on defense if he only has to counter one attack. Battles go play by play, and Gremmy has a counter for each and everyone of Madara's moves, but Madara still has no response to reality warping that ignores any possible defense and instantaneous BFR
For example, he will know that the person he is fighting is not normal and start to feel like he is using Izanagi, so he will use wood clones to fight while he stays safe and observe.
Gremmy can target Madara's body with imagination without having to go through the trouble of fighting his clones. I've already demonstrated how Gremmy's imagination can ignore any durability whatsoever, all he has to do is think and what he imagines will come to pass. Turning Madara into a cookie is still a viable option, and Gremmy doesn't need to defeat anybody for it to happen inside of Madara
Why isn’t a blitz possible? I think this is where we debate speed, so I’ll make my case on why Madara is fast enough to blitz. Although before I start, I’d like to point out that Madara won’t be the one blitzing, but his wood clones. It should also be noted that his wood clones have the same speed as Madara.
First lets start with the fact that Kakashi was a lighting timer very early on, yet during the war arc Naruto, EMS Sasuke, and the Raikage were a lot faster by a good bit. Madara blitzed Naruto, Sasuke couldn’t tag him and when he tagged him it was on purpose as explained in my previous post, and the Raikage admitted that he isn’t fast enough to tag Madara. Jumping off scaling, Madara reacted to instant teleportation, which is an insane feat, btw. Reacted to laser circus (A lighting based attack). Reacted to Tobirama and dodged his FTG (another instant teleportation attack).
Guy saying Kakashi earned the name lighting cutter ftom cutting lighting in the chunin exams:
Kakashi shows that this is not just a statement by reacting to a lighting bolt and saving choji
And since Kenpachi reacted to a missile, here is Kakashi on death's door reacting to a missile
EMS Sasuke saw and was tracking Juibto, MS Sasuke dodged Bee's blitz, and as a kid was faster than sound (I'm sure you must have seen the scans, so I'll save room as my post is getting too big).
Same for Naruto.
Yet Madara easily blitzed Naruto
I already posted him easily reacting to Sasuke, and the Raikage saying he needs more speed, so I'll skip those two.
Reacts to Tobirama's FTG
And reacts to instant travel again
This explanation wasn't needed, I'm fully aware of all of Madara's feats and I know exactly how fast he is. And I've already conceded on the topic that Madara is faster than him (due in part to my in-depth knowledge on him) but kudos for posting this anyways
Most Bleach characters actually use spirit energy to form a platform to stand on.
But Gremmy didn't, nor does he need to
This was explained by Ikkaku during the full bringer arc (Can post scans), and further explained during the final arc by Mayuri who called the the move quincies use as “hirenkyaku”. Although I agree that Gremmy can use hirenkyaku to climb up or grow wings to fly up; however, the problem with that would force him to go really high in the air to avoid getting caught in the shock wave (Madara’s meteowas felt from countries away, so unless Gremmy moves really high up or distances himself by hundreds of miles or he will still get caught in it), leaving him vulnerable during his ascension to the wood clones. The wood clones can undo themselves at the last possible second, or even get hit. Not a problem to Madara as he can easily replace them.
Those shockwaves spread on ground lvl. He wouldn't have to fly more than a thousand feat in the air to be unaffected
Perfect Susanoo resisted Onokii’s particle release. An ability that destroys objects on near molecular level. Don’t see how Gremmy can matter manipulate an energy being that resisted manipulation on molecular level.
Destroying something =/= to changing it's fundamental properties. Matter transmutation and molecular destruction are nowhere near the same thing, they're completely different in all regards; they have a different process, a different outcome, different uses and different effects. So Madara tanking particle style in no way, shape, or form means his body (or susanoo) can resist being turned into an entire cookie, nor does Madara have any feats to show he can continue fighting when he literally isn't a human anymore. For example, Gremmy imagining Madara is a stuffed bear at the beginning of the fight. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's practical, and your earlier argument that Madara can continue fighting despite being another object couldn't apply to him with out invoking NLF, since he's never encountered that before nor anything even remotely close. So assuming he can is pure speculation on your part, and it doesn't help that you were using examples from entirely different series
In addition, Madara’s Susanoo rivaled Hashirama’s wooden golem. Hashirama’s wooden golem blocked the Kyuubi’s energy black and then deflected it at Madara who used his own PS to block and tank the blast. So, its very durable and resistant. Assuming he targets one of its blades, then Madara can just create new ones for it.
I can not stress this enough, Gremmy's imagination can ignore any and all durability, as it's been shown to do before. It wouldn't matter if Madara had 10,000 Susanoo's, or if he's tanked a planet busting attack. If Gremmy imagines all of his bones are sand, they would simply turn into sand
Yes; however, Madara can just create a new one. Right after Gaara pulled him, he created a new one. Destroying Susanoo means nothing as those who create Susanoo can recreate it on the spot.
Cool, Gremmy doesn't need to destroy Susanoo to access and manipulate the properties of Madara's real body anyways, so that'd be a detour for him
He would get caught in his own attack. The wood dragon attaches itself to targets and feeds on their energy to grow and become even stronger. If Gremmy uses lava to burn it, then he will get burned by his own attack.
Normally I would laugh this off, but since Gremmy has screwed himself with his own power before I'll actually have to provide a concrete reason for why that won't work.
The wood dragon doesn't literally "attach itself" to the target, it snakes and coils it's way around in order to bind/restrain the target, than absorb it's chakra in an almost vampiric fashion. If the head of the wood dragon is destroyed, it loses it's ability to consume it's opponents chakra and is ultimately defeated. This weakness was shown when Naruto and Bee fought against it. Gremmy has multiple ways of targeting the head and head alone (spam some missiles) and then there's my go-to argument:
Is there anything stopping him from turning the Dragon into something else entirely? (No)
Won’t really mean much. As I said before Ninja are cool with the vacuum of space.
Even if Madara could survive in space, (no feats supporting he can) there's still the problem that he's stuck in a pocket dimension with no way o return
Madara can sense when he is tangible and attack at that time.
Attack him when he's intangible? Or was this misworded? Madara has never sensed someone "about to go intangible and attack them before they became intangible" before. He has h2h combat precog only, he can't actually see into the future. So this isn't realistic and he isn't capable of doing that
Kyuubi’s energy blast can move at MHS. Yachiru sensed Lee, I doubt sage mode can't sense him.
Fair enough, sage mode can maybe sense his energies
Sure from Naruto chapter 447
I’m not using human path, I’m using the gedo statue.
Good to know. But you practically debunk yourself in the next few posts, providing examples for why a soul crush wouldn't be possible (it still is), and even if it wasn't, it'd help my case as well because going by the same rules you later state, it's not likely for a soul rip to be used against Gremmy either (and I'll show why)
Well, considering this is a shared universe concept, spirit energy = chakra.
I had actually forgotten about this, thanks for reminding me
Soul crush is done by one that have a lot more spirit than the victim. If we’re going down that route then Madara is the one that spirit crushes as he matches Hashirama’s chakra level as he absorbed him.
Is soul crush an aftereffect of overwhelming reiryoku?
Does Madara have more energy than Gremmy?
Debatable, but probably so
Has Madara ever used his soul or manipulated his own soul in any way?
No, and this is where the possibilities of Madara soul crushing, (and Gedo Mazo soul ripping) meet their deaths. Equating the universe energies doesn't automatically give Madara abilities he's never demonstrated before, awareness he's never had, or resistance he's never shown. If you ask me, all equating the universe energies has down is remove the possibilities of an instantaneous gg for Gremmy, but there is no way you can flip it the other way around to make it so a Bleach character gets soul crushed just by equalizing Gremmy's one advantage. Quincies have fought overwhelmingly powerful shinigami before. Gremmy fought Kenpachi who has immense Reiatsu, and another example is Ywach fighting Yamamoto. Yamamoto's reiatsu is so powerful it manifest itself as flames the temperature of the suns core, and would passively destroy all of Seiretei by simply being released fully. Add that to the fact that every major character in Bleach is more or less spiritually aware, (or spirits entirely) and they have at least some form of soul manipulation resistance at extreme lowball. Either scenario of Gremmy losing soul-wise is absurd.
Even if we don’t consider the shared universe concept, spirit crush still won’t work as Chakra = spirit energy + physical energy, so Madara still has a lot of spirit energy to be fine from a spirit crush.
How does having 1/2 spirit energy and 1/2 physical energy (chakra) give Madara more spirit power than someone who's 2/2 spirit energy (reiryoku)? Where'd that math come from? Lol
And if we go even further and assume that it has to be the spirit energy in Bleach, then it still won’t work because Madara would be a normal human in those conditions and normal humans can’t be effected by spirit energy unless they have it.
Madara most definitely isn't a normal human lol. But I know what you meant
That is why Ichigo’s friends who had a little bit of spirit energy felt Aizen’s terrifying spirit energy, but a normal human walked all the way to him without feeling any repercussions (Should be noted that the human died when he came in direct contact with Aizen, but other soul reapers did as well, so it’s mostly Aizen’s aura).
Yeah, I gotta call PIS on that one. Kubo doesn't know how to write sometimes, and is worse than Mashima in that regard, and that was one of those cases. Honestly the entire latter half of that arc was ridiculous, but I know this type of response won't satisfy you so I'll just state the obvious:
You just contradicted yourself by saying that. First you claim-
Madara still has a lot of spirit energy to be fine from a spirit crush
You essentially state that Madara has massive spirit energy to be unaffected by soul manipulation, Then you go on to say-
Madara would be a normal human in those conditions and normal humans can’t be effected by spirit energy
^ Implying that Madara has no spirit energy whatsoever immediately after that. And before you go clamoring at me saying I quoted that out of context, remember your justification for that was-
if we go even further and that it has to be the
How could that "assumption" be possible, especially when YOU were the one who said this?-
this is a shared universe concept, spirit energy = chakra.
So, not only did you contradict yourself twice, you made an assumption that you yourself restricted; previously dictating it not to be possible, nor practical to use. If both cases, whether we apply the shared universe energy concept or not, it doesn't allow Madara to overcome Gremmy spiritually
There will be too many of them, he can’t imagine all of them into something else. 1 Madara made an entire battlefield into a forest filled with poisonous flowers, 27 Madara combing their wood release would make it much bigger, more thicker, and filled to the top with highly poisonous flowers.
Lmao Gremmy doesn't need to turn the entire battlefield back, that'd be pointless; he only needs to imagine the flowers in a small area (the area he's in) into something harmless, and he'd be able to breath. This is a viable option because Ohnoki practically did the same thing when he destroyed all the flowers in his immediate vicinity:
So your reasoning for why Gremmy can't imagine the flowers as something harmless is because there'll be too many of them. That argument has now become null and void, since he only needs to change the sufficient amount he needs to provide air for himself
He would be caught in his own attack like with the wood dragon.
No. He can stay out of range and levitate in air, dropping lava
The Kages tried that, they got punched by Susanoo in waiting. The Madara army doesn’t have to hold the wood release, they can use it and be ready to strike Gremmy back in if he comes out.
He isn't the Kages, and Susanoo's arms turn into noodles
Will get caught in his own attack again.
Resorting to this logic over and over again is just another way to show you have no counter to his actual techniques, Gremmy repeatedly getting caught in his own attacks isn't realistic at all. It's not like he'll stay directly under it and let it fall on top of him
Madara was keeping up with the entire shinobi army and saw through sneak attacks and that was without using his MS (Which increases his perception) or sage mode (which makes sneaking an impossibility unless the sneaker is a lot faster).
Madara has exceptional sensing skills I'll give you that, but Gremmy has abilities to overcome that
Madara is one of the very few characters that can use his abilities without needing his eyes.
For example, he used his Susanoo while completely blind.
He'd still be at a massive disadvantage, as he can not see nor fight properly. I appreciate you giving the context, so everyone should know Madara was significantly weakened and handicapped when this happened. It might allow him to continue his fight against Gremmy, but it doesn't help him win at all
Well you're a great debater, I have to give credit where it's due
Madara can quickly recreate his Susanoo. So when Gremmy imagines Madara out, then imagines Lava around him, Madara would have created a new Susanoo. Keep in mind that was an imperfect Susanoo (About the size of a tall skyscraper). The real one is as big as a mountain. So if Gremmy dropped a volcano on him, it still won’t reach Madara. So bringing the lava down first then removing Madara out won’t work.
How many times repeatedly can he keep doing that? And in reality this strategy is still plausible depending on who's faster; Madara deploying a new Susanoo or Gremmy materializing lava, in which I'd have to go with Gremmy.
Side note: Sasuke Susanoo was fine with lava on top of it. He was running low on chakra, though, and his susanoo just became couple of ribs. In addition, Mei's lava style wasn't what was burning it, it was her acid mist.
^The whole fight with Mei. His sasuke even as a mere rib cage was fine was lava.
Maybe Susanoo is fine with lava on it. I'll agree with you on that. But without it they're completely susceptible. And not only that, there's still the case the Gremmy turns Susanoo into lava.
Most of his abilities don’t need hand seals.
Madara's more powerful one's do
In addition, elite Ninja can skip the two hand seal issue (Haku used one hand, Adult Sasuke uses one hand, etc).
My point was Madara couldn't form hand seals nor move any part of his body at all. He'd be immobilized, so even using one hand like Minato wouldn't be possible
Madara’s soul is very strong. When the edo was undone he resisted leaving the body and then undid his contract with Kabuto and kept himself as an eternal edo with no contract. So his soul won’t leave if he becomes a rock or a cookie.
You're forgetting one key thing: He can't continue the fight as a cookie/rock. His edo body was human, had human form. Please tell me, what would it matter if his soul didn't leave his body, when his new body is a cookie? He'd have no way to turn back, and would be incapacitated, not able to continue the fight at all in his state. The example with Vegito was shady, if Buu was bloodlusted he would have ate him immediately. And I think Gremmy craves cookies btw
And Susanoo doesn’t need movement to come. Sasuke was able to create a Susanoo while completely immobile by Danzo’s sealing jutsu. So he can still fight, and considering that would surely distract Gremmy, Madara will get his body back.
Susanoo is pretty versatile, but in no way is Madara getting his body back. And I don't think he can deploy Susanoo as a rock
For example, as stated earlier, Owen Reece AKA the molecule man turned Bullseye into water, but Bullseye kept his soul
(Dark Avengers 11).
And same happened with Vegeta and Buu.
Unless you have feats that put Gremmy above molecule man and Buu, I rest my case.
Neither of the example you provided allowed the opponent to continue to fight to the best of their abilities in that state, as in defeat the opponent. Unlike the case with Buu when candy Vegito was fighting back, Gremmy will be bloodlusted, so if Madara turned into candy in the palm of his hand he'd eat him immediately instead of gloat like the typical dumbass shonen villain
A common misconception. Only one area inside the moon was terraformed, the rest was normal. It’s the same as saying the Earth have one cave filled with gold, so Earth is completely covered in gold.
Fair enough, although I've seen the last multiple times and I don't think that was stated anywhere
Why not? I already pointed out many ninjas that can hold their breath under water for an extended period of time, and in order to cast the IT he flew to outer space.
1. Holding your breath underwater won't mean you can breath in space. Best case scenario Madara would end up like Saitama when he landed on the moon. Unbothered by the conditions but still unable to breath (you can't hold your breath forever)
2. Madara didn't go to outer space to cast IT. He flew to the upper atmosphere
I suppose you can say that the Juubi gave him the power to hang in space, but considering Sasuke was in pursuit, one can safely assume that Madara can survive the vacuum.
Except Madara's never been in outer space
Madara can jump out of it, or use PS to come through. Kenpachi came out of it, so it is not like an inescapable attack. Furthermore, Gremmy needed 4 clones to do that attack and it was a tiny spot, so it’s not an attack that can be easily done or spammed and can be dodged.
Kenpachi only came out because Gremmy was talking to him, describing the effects of what happens to people in outer space. In the time Gremmy wasted conversing with Kenpachi he could have simply closed the opening, sealing Kenpachi in there and winning the fight via BFR. If he can open the rift then he can forcibly close it, so there's no reason why a bloodlusted Gremmy couldn't when fighting Madara. You can't dodge the attack either, the space materializes around you, so for now BFR'ing Madara is still an option
True, but now there are dozens of meteors in the air,
Only Juubi Madara has been shown capable of spamming Chibaku tensei's like that. You're using pre-juubi, who's best attack is Tengai Shinsei in which there are two meteors
and if Gremmy gets hit by one it’s over. Gremmy can’t exactly maneuver in the air, and won’t be able to dodge gigantic meteors moving between 25 kilometers per second to 160,000 mph (Asteroid-Meteor average speeds), nor can he destroy one as he shown no DC on that level. Madara’s Susanoo can maneuver and cut through them, so he’s fine, on the other hand.
Same as above. The impact from Tengai Shinsei meteors can be felt from miles away, but only on ground level, and both meteors, travel in a straight line. Avoiding them won't be difficult at all
Don’t want to sound like I’m low balling, but the fastest thing Kenpachi did was react to Nnoitra’s cero. No one knows how fast a Cero is. There are some insane theories that Cero is light speed because it looks like a laser. However, lots of street tier dodge lasers (Kamala Khan, for example, dodged nearly a dozen robot firing their lasers at the same time and she has normal human speed), and in Bleach, Nul was able to get in front of Ichigo to deflect a Cero and at the time she was just in her child form with no notable speed. So, I highly doubt that Cero is LS.
I never suggested cero was light speed, and it was only somewhat relevant here, so in reality you made a detour by debunking that. We can still scale Kenpachi off of other characters
And without the Cero feat, Kenpachi has almost no speed feats. He did fight Candice, but she easily dodged and tagged him, and at her best she is theorized as fast as lighting. So, Kenpachi has nothing to put him on that level.
(Context: Candice was about to fry some SL, Kenpachi came from her back silently to attack, she saw him and not only dodged, but got behind him and tagged him).
Kenpachi was already injured and slightly weakened when he fought Candice- who by the way, can in fact move as lightning. Reacting to her is a speed feat in itself
Which captains did he fight that fought at such speeds and he kept with them? The only Captain I can think of is Tousen, and Tousen doesn’t have any noticeable speed feats (Without mask anyways). And when he fought Kenpachi he depended on robbing Kenpachi’s sight and hearing to tag him. Tousen also was not that powerful as he needed to go full hollow and still lost to another weak captain and an ok vice captain.
You misunderstood, not captains he has fought, but captains (and captain lvl shinigami) that he is comparable to
A bad precog considering Lee couldn’t react to Yachiru’s sword because it can cut past it’s range by a bit. Also, lots of Quincies were tagged with ease. So, VS is only good for a quick step forward or backward to dodge an attack that is seeable but too fast to dodge. Madara’s speed is far enough (by feats) to tag Gremmy without Gremmy noticing that he is about to be attacked.
Gremmy's physical movements are faster than Lee's, so Gremmy with VS should logically be above Lee with VS. And Gremmy doesn't need to keep up with Madara in an exchange of blows, just be fast enough to perceive and react to him in time, so that'd he'd be able to form a complete thought; which he is
He would have to see him first. Also, as I stated early, Madara won’t attack directly, it’s his clones that will attack (Clones have his speed), so turning their feet into rocks then they disappearing and another one taking its place will start doubting Gremmy making him confused on what he is fighting as he never fought or heard of anything like that.
And like I said, Gremmy doesn't need to defeat each and everyone of his clones one by one before any of his attacks affect Madara. Madara won't be able to summon wood clones of form seals if Gremmy imagined his hands as logs, or something else in his body that would immobilize his movement and incapacitate him from doing any actions
He was sweating, usually that is a sign of fear or exhaustion, not Frustration. He did get frustrated around the end and said he will simply imagine himself more powerful than Kenpachi and his body couldn’t handle all that power, hence why I said he has a finite amount of spirit energy.
He does indeed, but he has enough to complete the fight IMO, and he's bloodlusted here so I don't know if fear and frustration would apply to him(?)
Won’t work. Sasuke pierced and completely destroyed Naruto’s lungs in the first VOTE, and Naruto just healed it.
This means nothing, and is the second time you equated organic destruction with matter transmutation, when they're even remotely similar
Madara has better healing feats than Naruto (Healed all the damage from the bijuu + implanted an eye + reattached an arm all at the same time in seconds).
His healing factor doesn't extend to reversing transmutation. It seems as though you think that if Madara's head was turned into a rock, he would just "heal" is head back or simply grow a new one
Based of Madara’s statement to Tsanude, Her Ninja art creation rebirth is nothing more than something Hashirama’s body did on its own, and Tsunde agreed. Keep in mind Tsunde’s jutsu repairs everything even cells and allows the user temporary immortality, and that is something Madara’s body does on its own.
And yet, this still isn't a logical counter to transmutation; even if he can heal his cells, he can't reconstruct his DNA to give him the fundamental properties of an entirely different matter
Madara is very perceptive and a great strategist, him not catching such an obvious weakness and not exploiting it is completely out of character for him.
I didn't say Madara isn't smart or perceptible enough to not exploit the weakness, just that Gremmy wouldn't let his "distraction" to reduce the potency of his capabilities in a way that would play to Madara's advantage
Already talked about this. The things he changes keep their shape and properties,
We don't know if that'd be the case if turned completely, and there's always Gremmy imagining Madara as something without no shape, such as water or sand in which Madara couldn't fight back
they just become extremely fragile and thanks to Madara’s healing factor, he can easily overcome that.
You've said this so many times now that I'm starting to wonder why. Where'd you get the idea that healing factor reverses transmutation anyways? Healing factor/regeneration is an ability that repairs injuries, so how does that all of a sudden mean Madara has matter manipulation?
To put it in perspective, Obito got half of his entire body crushed. His brain, his heart, his lungs were all crushed and Madara were like “I can rebuild him, make him stronger and faster than before” (Million dollar man reference).
Yea but Obito was still human and had a human body, and that was with the help of Zetsu and Hashirama's cells
Not his brain. He always healed his body which he said was never there only his brain was really there. And as I already stated, Madara will know the brain is what creates his energy and uses that energy for his Izanami, so he will focus his attacks on the brain.
That's a nice strategy for Madara to use, but is too easy to defend against and will become apparent that he's attacking only his brain (I've shown several defenses measures gremmy can use against a majority of Madara's attacks)
Kenpachi’s sword was simply cutting through Gremmy’s chest and it did. So Gremmy doesn’t have Island busting durability.
But he can regenerate from cutting attacks of similar level. Madara's susanoo has cleaved through multiple mountains (island lvl cutting) so even if Gremmy gets bisected by Susanoo he could regenerate
Had the attack been on his brain, or he simply block it, or his body took very little damage from it, then it might have helped him here, but his best durability is the ability to harden up like steel, so anything that can cut steel can cut him.
Sometimes tanking attacks head on isn't necessary when you can counter it, in which he can. And yes, anything that can cut steel can cut Gremmy, we saw this happen when Kenpachi cut through him multiple times, so that's not surprising. The point I was trying to make is that he wouldn't die from any of those specific cutting attacks
He hasn’t shown the ability to regenerate his brain or the rest of his body for that matter from an attack of that level.
Neither has Madara
Kenpachi was stabbed by Mayuri’s sword after his fight was Gremmy, so Kenpachi, the toughest Bleach character, doesn’t have durability on that level.
He was already weakened after his fight with Gremmy, and this is where my argument that countering attacks comes into play. And Kenpachi has more resilience and tenacity that actual durability I believe. It's more like he just won't go down
I agree with that.
Gremmy has really cool hax, but Madara is his kryptonite as he won’t be effected by most of his abilities and has more than one way to kill him.
Most of Gremmy has that you provided a counter for were really just self-asserted theories Madara could use to survive the fight. The most obvious example is your healing factor argument, in which you claim Madara can heal his body despite being made of a completely different substance than what he's used to or done before. The examples you used and logic you gave were convincing at face value, but when inspected closer, you'll realize that none of Madara's "counters" to Gremmy's abilities won't actually give him an advantage as far as the actual match goes, just postpone his inevitable death.
That is not the same. Being bloodlusted doesn’t mean you can’t be distracted. Hell, being bloodlusted usually makes the person more easily distracted.
Being bloodlusted means you're overcome with an insurmountable, insatiable desire for spilling blood; you're completely hellbent on the murder of your opponent, so much that nothing else matters in the world and the only thing on your mind is the absolute death of your opponent. If killing Madara is the one and only thing Gremmy is focused on (due to bloodlust), it would make no sense for him o be easily distracted by something else, losing his desire. He would top at nothing in order to kill him, and if killing Madara is the only thing he wants, he would try everything conceivably possible to obtain it. So gremmy's weakness of "getting distracted" is somewhat nonsensical here, as he would be more focused on ways to kill Madara than anything else
It takes 4 clones to stand in 4 angles around him and it takes the portal a bit before it closes, unless Madara is as slow as a slug he will get out of it.
It doesn't take a bit before it closes. Gremmy wanted Kenpachi to suffer in the void of space instead of BFR'ing him there, which is why he was deccribing the effects of what would happen when there:
If Gremmy's objective was BFR then he would have done so. He literally just materialized Galaxy Room, leaving Madara there won't be an issue/ You're thinking Galaxy room is a hole with an opening that gradually shrinks overtime, and that you have to jump out to escape it. Gremmy made it instantly, and can dissipate it just as fast, while Madara is inside
In addition, Banishment rooms in Bleach aren’t that strong. Ulquiorra in base punched his way out of one.
Completely irrelevant. They don't work the same way
I wouldn’t use Sasuke’s special ability for Madara. That would be the same as saying Sasuke can use limbo. However, with that out of the way, I’d like to point out that Sasuke wasn’t very experienced with his rinnengan. He can now open a portal to any dimension and take multiple people with him. But, Sasuke is not here, so lets not derail the thread.
Maybe, but either way it proves my point Madara can't use dojutsu to ecscape
Unless Kenpachi is a lot faster or stronger than Madara, that is false.
Galaxy Room wasn't closed when Kenpachi was inside, Gremmy wanted him to die due to the effects not BFR. The fact still stands that Gremmy can create pocket dimensions, he can make one designed to BFR if he wanted to
Won’t work as Madara still has 26 clones to distract Gremmy
Gremmy isn't getting distracted, the clones get countered by Gremmy's clones, all the clones are imagined to revert back to logs and Gremmy BFR's
and return Madara to normal. Worse case scenario Madara summons Yama and heals himself fully.
Madara can not "heal transmutation" nor revert his body back
Already explained why that is impossible.
Turning Susanoo entirely into lava is, and Madara will already be inside
Madara doesn’t need eyes to use their abilities (Might have to do with his MS ability).
He's only been shown to perform one ability without eyes, saying he can use his entire powerset while blind (when most of it comes from vision) is a stretch
Not without hurting himself, and all the plans you posted for Gremmy are taxing (Galaxy room-Meteor summoning)
He can fly and rain lava, and just because they're stamina taxing doesn't mean he can't do it
Already debunked in this post.
In which you contradicted yourself twice, making your arguments shady and all over the place
Strategizing is very valid. Naruto (Who is considered dumb) used strategy while fighting to win on multiple occasions, best one in my book is strategizing to take out pain. Sasuke used Danzo’s habit of looking at his eyes to win. And Madara is smarter than both or at least equally as smart as Sasuke. So strategizing is a very valid advantage for Madara.
an advantage which wont give him the win, but let's see what you say about it in this colossal paragraph that follows:
Based on both of our plans + and posts so far, here is the most likely scenario:
Madara (Can see how lit Gremmy’s brain is and how empty his body is) starts the fight by using his fire release.
- Redirects it
- Douses it in water
- Creates stone pillars to block
- Hold it in a massive hand
Gremmy creates a body of water to block it, the fire release evaporates the water and continues toward Gremmy who uses his stone wall to block it.
Couple things wrong here, the fire wich has been countered by the water won't continue to come forward, it's been turned into steam already along with the water. Madara can create another fire release though, I'm assuming this is what you were thinking of when mentioned the 4th division earlier
(Madara has now seen that his brain is using energy, so he knows that the brain is his source of power. He also studies Gremmy and sees he does no hand seals or change in chakra, so he determines that Gremmy is using a bloodline that grant him an ability similar to Izanagi. Madara now starts being extra cautious).
Taking extra caution will make you slower, and will be difficult when the person you're fighting is hellbent on killing you, so you're constantly being pressured to defend against their attacks while simultaneously thinking of ways to defeat them
Madara quickly creates 26 clones to blend in with them or hide with a few of them (Most likely hide) and watch the fight to further study Gremmy. Lets say 10 clones hide with Madara, that would leave 16 wood clones all are equally as powerful as Madara (except durability).
Gremmy answers back with his own clones; except they won't be clones, they'll be genuine copies of himself with 100% of his power. This means he doubles his power with each and everyone clone made, and he's been shown to make up to 8 clones. Since Gremmy's power doubles with each clone he makes (and not every 2 he makes) his power after making 8 clones won't be 2 * 8, but in reality 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2, which is 2 to the 8th power. So in other words, Gremmy's power is 256x more powerful than his one actual body, which is unlike all cloning jutsu in Naruto where the user divides power amongst the clones. So while Madara has the raw number advantage, Gremmy has the power advantage, and there's nothing stopping Gremmy from making more clones (especially since he grows powerful the more he does). Originally when I first proposed this you said it wasn't possible due to the fact that big moves like this drain him, and you went on to give the example of the meteor and galaxy room. I knew something was fishy, so I went and double checked, and it was revealed that Gremmy showed absolutely zero signs of strain or fatigue when he made his meteor, or when he kept cloning. The only thing that actually been shown to take effort was Galaxy Room, so my point still stands that Gremmy can clone more. But I'll cap it here just to stay on the safe side.
The clones start by an all out fire style attack again from all directions (Gremmy can die here), Gremmy can maybe use his stone tower to climb up quickly; however, as your own gif with Obito shows, fire release can destroy stone.
Gremmy can make defensive dome like he did when he fought Kenpachi, or create a bunch of hands to hold or wave away the all the fire. And in the gif I showed the earth wall defended against the fire ball perfectly. Kakashi's body wasn't hurt, even if the wall was destroyed, which is the point of defense
Keep in mind that Madara is far more powerful than Obito, and his fire release is above Obito by a good distance. Now Gremmy sees that he will fall in a pit of fire. He now uses his hirenkyaku to stay up, and starts his attack by targeting the clones by dropping lava; however, the clones (all 16) bring out Susanoo that shrugs it off.
Gremmy turns all the Susanoo's into lava, killing the clones inside immediately. And at this point he's already unscathed by the fire release
(Gremmy is now a bit scared, and wants to finish this off quickly).
No, he is bloodlusted
(Gremmy can’t turn all 16’s bones into cookies or likewise things).
Based on what? There are 8 Gremmy's now, who collectively have 256x more imagination power than a single Gremmy, so it's completely possible for him to do that. Only reason it seems he can't because he's a jobber
Gremmy creates his clone and summons a meteor stating that this will kill all of them leaving him the only survivor, and laughs. The 16 clones laugh, for Gremmy’s shock, and each summon their own meteor.
Pre-Juubi Madara can only summon 2 meteors, 2 Gremmy's can summon one so 8 should summon at least 4. But going of my current logic he'd have 256x times power, so in reality he should be able to summon 128, but that sounds ridiculous to even me so I'll cap it a reasonable range if 4.
Gremmy is now terrified,
No, he is bloodlusted
he now has 17 giant sized meteors heading toward him, the sky is completely darkened by the meteors heading toward earth.
He flies in between the spaces of the meteors
Gremmy is trying to think of his next move and wondering why the clones aren’t running or scared. The clones are fine, they are just about to use their Susanoo bead attack to keep Gremmy occupied on them and to stay and die here (Gremmy can die). Gremmy in full panic and rage, makes his 4 clones (+ him that is total of 5),
None of the mindstates you've given Gremmy here are viable, so based of off that alone most of these arguments are sketchy af. Anyways Gremmy can make 8 clones, not 4
Seven additional clones:
And before you say it, no, two of them aren't the same ones as before. I made sure to reread the chapters very carefully and they spawned in different locations. So 9 authentic Gremmy's in total, each individual one doubling his power (x2 for each)
and starts turning the clones’ bones into cookies and what not, and trying to avoid/block their bead attacks that they are firing.
I mean, there's nothing stopping him from turning them into cookies entirely, then they can't fire jack shit
He creates metal shield around the main him to help block and the other four protect him as best as they could while fighting the 16 clones.
N/A, he wouldn't have to create shields and has numerous ways to deal with clones; like turning their bones into something he's imagined before. I'll go with lava
Lets say they managed to turn all 16’s bones into cookies, they still remain as they are encased in Susanoo. Gremmy has no direct DC of destroying a Susanoo, even an imperfect one.
Gremmy's power can ignore durability. You yourself acknowledge he can turn things to cookies, and there's no durability that can "tank" that.
The clones are still struggling with protecting the main one from the Susanoo beads attack and coming up with a plan to deal with the meteors.
N/A, the clones won't be struggling from amything
That causes dissipation (Lack of concentration),
N/A. He'd still be concentrated on killing Madara
so Madara’s wood clones’ bones return to normal.
Maybe. But they've already been burned by Susanoo, which turned into a block of lava long ago
Since Madara’s wood clones share his intellect and strategizing, they decide to further study Gremmy. (At this point the meteors are too close, and Gremmy and his clones decide to just grow wings and fly up to escape, and hope the Madara army dies). (Madara has two escape routes here: He can run far away, Hashirama who is on Madara’s speed ran across countries within a couple of minutes tops, so Madara and his clones can get enough distance away to escape the immediate zone, then use wood style to block the incoming debris and ease the shockwaves, in addition they use Susanoo to prepare and use a spear head formation to make sure the real is safe.
I really, REALLY feel like a dick for doing this (and I hope it won't make me look lazy to the voters), but N/A to this whole paragraph. I've already countered all the necesseties for this entire paragraph, making this scenario inapplicable. Madara's clones would already be dead, and he can fly high enough to not get affected by the meteors impacts
If you feel like them leaving the city borders is a self BFR(I don’t think it is as they can come back right away, but I’ll leave it up to you)
It's fine. N/A anyways. In fact, your entire strategy from here on out is N/A because I deunked it's core. Your root argument and your thesis was just countered, so the rest of this justification is based of an inapplicable premise making it inapplicable as well
then they use the second method, the real Madara brings up his PS and flies team up in the atmosphere like Gremmy). Based on this we have two possible paths. If Madara escaped the city then he would come back after the impact when it’s safe and begin to change the battlefield into a giant forest, and wait for Gremmy to come down.
Even if Gremmy descends he can clear away a portion of the forest like Onoki
If this is the case, then it’s all over for Gremmy when he comes down as Madara now knows his abilities, his weakness, and set the field to his liking.
Ehhhh the scenario I made for myself would have Madara dead by this point so I'll wait and see what you have in store
In addition, he can set bobby traps, and absorb all the clones that he had to learn everything and improve his odds by taking in all the ideas the clones thought of while watching Gremmy.
Gremmy imagines Madara's bones are lava, or launches globs of lava at his clones and burns them again
Madara would then create couple more clones to avoid fighting 1 on 1 (Lets say 7) and summon Kyuubi which he combines with PS,
Gremmy drops a few meteors at this point
then using sage mode he senses where Gremmy is and fires dozens of Bijuu Dama combined with PS blasts toward him.
Gremmy opens a portal and all the Bijuu damas fly inside
Gremmy is dead up above, and if he comes down he is still dead. The second is if Madara flew up. During Gremmy’s ascension he would have lost some clones to the meteors
He only needs to be a thousand feat in the air or so to be unaffected by the meteors
and the Susanoo beads hitting them in the brain. Lets say 3 died, so 2 are left (So Gremmy + 1 clone).
N/A, and he'll possibly make more and gets stronger as he does
Similarly, Madara lost about 2 from Gremmy’s attacks.
No, he lost all of them, and they didn't die to an attack, they died having internal parts of them being turned into lava
Keep in mind that the rinnengan allows users to see from each other’s point of view at the same time + the MS’s precog ability + PS’s insane DC allows Madara to avoid hitting any meteors and taking any causality. So a total of 25 Madaras remain (24 clones + real Madara).
Once again, his clones are dead. I agree with the first part
Gremmy is now at his end. Since Madara is up high, with all 24 clones on his PS, in the atmosphere, Gremmy tries his ultimate move. Gremmy screams and calls Madara an unbelievable monster out of nightmares
I'm actually enjoying the way you potray Gremmy, because it's sooo in character for him to act like a baby and throw tantrums like that
and creates 3 more clones all of which go to four angles around Madara and open up his galaxy room.
As soon as gremmy materializes galaxy room Madara is caught of gaurd, and in the few seconds his lungs decompress and he realizes he's in space Gremmy closes of the portal of galaxy room and walks away, eating 25 dead bodies worth of cookies
Gremmy is screaming that this will end him. Madara’s PS is too big to fit in, so only a piece of is enveloped.
This is because Perfect Susanoo is mountain sized right? Well, then Gremmy just pulls him out
Some of Madara’s clones jump off the PS creating their own Susanoo and killing all the clones with slashed that destroys their entire body, while the main Madara moves out with no issue in his PS and slashes Gremmy destroying his entire body killing him. Madara then descends to the ground back on earth and keeps guard to be sure, However, the battle is over.
This would be plausible, if all of Madara's clones have died horribly already, in which they have- twice.
Why can’t Gremmy turn the real Madara up in the atmosphere into cookie, you ask? Because he still faces multiple Madaras and doesn’t know which is the real one.
Then he turns all their bloodstreams into lava, including the real one
His galaxy room was his last ace in the hole and it failed.
Not if he's bloodlusted and he uses it as BFR
Trying a weaker move won’t make much sense. Even if he gets lucky and gets the real one, the PS will still attack.
A LOT of Gremmy's weaker moves are more effective than his stronger ones
Why can’t Gremmy phase? Because Sage mode will let Madara know when is Gremmy there, and his PS is too fast for Gremmy to dodge.
You need to reiterate because it's not making sense. There'll be no need for him to dodge since he's already intangible, and sage mode won't make him physical again
Even if he stays phased the second he sees Madara, he will have to turn back eventually as he will be concentrating on staying phased.
Now this is true
And can’t attack or do anything else. Which will run out his energy, which is already low from all the moves he did.
Only one being Galaxy Room, which he's used to win
In addition if he can react to PS (I highly doubt), and only stay phased when PS is striking, then he won’t phase when Madara’s limbo clone smashes his brain entirely. Considering his limbo clone one shoted each bijuu including the Kyuubi, I doubt Gremmy can survive that.
Pre-Juubi Madara wasn't capable of using Limbo clones
Why can't gremmy turn Madara into a cookie at the start of the match? Because Madara is much faster, even you agreed to that.
Yup, it's true. Just because i'm debating against him this once doesn't mean I'll lowball the crap out of him
So the first attack will be his. If Gremmy decides to turn Madara into a cookie he won't harden up or put any defenses and would get disintegrated by the fire release, killing him instantly at the start of the match, and returning Madara to normal.
The first move will be Madara's but Gremmy can defend against that, and he has other surefire methods of winning
Why can't Gremmy just turn all 16 clones into cookies? Because he can only focus on one thing. Observed in his fight with Kenpachi, when he started fighting Kenpachi, Yachiru's bones turned to normal and Kenpachi even noticed such an obvious weakness. The difference here is Madara and his clones will actually take advantage of his weakness. He can turn 1 clone into a cookie and lets say he made 4 clones and each did the same, so 5 out of 16 Madara clones get turned into cookies while the rest targets Gremmy forcing him to release his concentration on the 5 Wood clones, or die from being attacked.
Gremmy will have tunnel vision focus on Madara's death when bloodlusted, each and every move he uses will be in his favor, and won't try to do something that won't either defend himself from an attack or be used to kill Madara.
In this scenario, they only benefit of doubt I can give you is that Gremmy won't be able to defend and attack at the same time