unfinished post

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Alright let's dig in

@sophia89 said:


Well, A: Gremmy has no TP resistance. No one in the Bleachverse does. The ultimate god tiers were effected by simple TP tricks (Aizen fell to an inverted illusion, and Yhwach fell to Aizen’s senses illusion, and then at the very end when he was the most powerful being in BV he was still effected by Aizen). However, none of this matters as I’ve restricted genjutsu.

Fair enough, and yes, it doesn't matter either way

B: What I mentioned is not a TP attack or an illusion. Madara can see the body and where ones’ powers come from. Madara was able to see Guy’s heart massively increase its chakra output and determined that this was Guy’s final attack as the heart can’t do that for long. So, since we’re going with shared universe concept, spirit energy = Chakra, and Madara will see Gremmy’s brain is what has chakra and what uses chakra when Gremmy uses his advanced form of Izanagi (This is what Madara will believe Gremmy’s power is. An advanced form of Izanagi). As for how he will attack Gremmy’s brain. I mentioned that in 4 out of my 8 possible possibilities.

Madara sees guy's heart and determines that it was a final attack:

You didn't mention strategies for how he would specifically attack Gremmy's brain (and only his brain) in your 8 possibilities earlier (your 1st counter post). And in the case of Kenpachi, Gremmy's true form only revealed itself after Gremmy committed suicide by accident. This leads me to believe his physical body has to die before his brain can be accessed and destroyed. Later I give several reasons why it won't be possible for Madara to accomplish this

Clone would also be under pressure. Gremmy has shown that his weakness is that he must concentrate to RW.

I've already proved why his weakness won't be applicable here in my opener. He'll be fighting one combatant, and will be concentrating on Madara and Madara only. And as for Madara's clones, Gremmy can answer back with his own (even though Madara can make more, it'd still serve as good distraction)

If pressure builds up, he won’t be able to concentrate enough. Having a massive sized, extremely hot and deadly, fast fire engulfing everything in its path makes concentrating hard, especially when it starts burning you and you have to start healing the damage and keeping your body sturdy so not to be disintegrated.

This is irrelevant to Gremmy, you're making this under the assumption he'll get tagged in the first place, and I've shown why he won't. He redirected a point blank explosion from his missiles by waving his hand

" used your hands" is the statement Kenpachi makes that proved Gremmy waved his hand to redirect it. And it happened on panel

This, and the fact that he can control other elements(water, lava, earth) and even manipulate space (created a dimensional rift) allows me to believe his reality warping extends to element manipulation, so it's safe to say he should be able to manipulate fire, especially since he's manipulated lava, with is just earth + fire. Even if he couldn't, he would bend space, or materialize a giant hand to hold it like Naruto did:

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As for your scans. The first one shows Obito’s fire release burning through Kakashi’s earth release.

It didn't completely topple Kakashi's wall, and Kakashi's body was still fine, which is my point. Not only that, the wall Kakashi used up is incredibly small, while Gremmy created this on a whim:

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Gremmy can create massive stone blocks that dwarf buildings with zero effort. This can counter Madara's fire release. In fact, the height of this wall is comparable to the ones that the shinobi alliance used to redirect Bijuu bombs, except this one is thicker

Madara’s fire release is far more powerful than Obito’s.

Gremmy just needs to increase the magnitude of his defenses in accordance to the scale of Madara's release. And we've seen Madara's most powerful fire releases before, and their extent is nothing Gremmy can not overcome

The second and third shows multiple ninja working together to stop Madara’s first fire release, and their entire water wall evaporating on contact. Madara’s second fire release went through and burned a lot of ninja. So Gremmy stopping one, is an expected outcome; however, if he can keep concentrating on building walls and bodies of water, he won’t be able to attack and will be stuck on defense, while Madara will be learning more of Gremmy’s power and better strategizing.

Not practical at all. This entire debate you've been under the assumption Gremmy can't spam any of his attacks or defense, which he can, and it'd be within your best interest to stop comparing Gremmy to fodder ninja, and here's why:

  • I've given 4 viable options Gremmy has to counter fire release(blocking it, redirecting it, countering it, or defending against it)
  • Gremmy's concentration weakness is non-applicable here and was addressed and nulled in the opener. You're acting as if Madara can do 9 different things at once and Gremmy has to keep up with all of them (dividing his concentration and power). He won't be "stuck" on defense if he only has to counter one attack. Battles go play by play, and Gremmy has a counter for each and everyone of Madara's moves, but Madara still has no response to reality warping that ignores any possible defense and instantaneous BFR

For example, he will know that the person he is fighting is not normal and start to feel like he is using Izanagi, so he will use wood clones to fight while he stays safe and observe.

Gremmy can target Madara's body with imagination without having to go through the trouble of fighting his clones. I've already demonstrated how Gremmy's imagination can ignore any durability whatsoever, all he has to do is think and what he imagines will come to pass. Turning Madara into a cookie is still a viable option, and Gremmy doesn't need to defeat anybody for it to happen inside of Madara

Why isn’t a blitz possible? I think this is where we debate speed, so I’ll make my case on why Madara is fast enough to blitz. Although before I start, I’d like to point out that Madara won’t be the one blitzing, but his wood clones. It should also be noted that his wood clones have the same speed as Madara.

First lets start with the fact that Kakashi was a lighting timer very early on, yet during the war arc Naruto, EMS Sasuke, and the Raikage were a lot faster by a good bit. Madara blitzed Naruto, Sasuke couldn’t tag him and when he tagged him it was on purpose as explained in my previous post, and the Raikage admitted that he isn’t fast enough to tag Madara. Jumping off scaling, Madara reacted to instant teleportation, which is an insane feat, btw. Reacted to laser circus (A lighting based attack). Reacted to Tobirama and dodged his FTG (another instant teleportation attack).

Guy saying Kakashi earned the name lighting cutter ftom cutting lighting in the chunin exams:

Kakashi shows that this is not just a statement by reacting to a lighting bolt and saving choji

And since Kenpachi reacted to a missile, here is Kakashi on death's door reacting to a missile

EMS Sasuke saw and was tracking Juibto, MS Sasuke dodged Bee's blitz, and as a kid was faster than sound (I'm sure you must have seen the scans, so I'll save room as my post is getting too big).

Same for Naruto.

Yet Madara easily blitzed Naruto

I already posted him easily reacting to Sasuke, and the Raikage saying he needs more speed, so I'll skip those two.

Reacts to Tobirama's FTG

And reacts to instant travel again

This explanation wasn't needed, I'm fully aware of all of Madara's feats and I know exactly how fast he is. And I've already conceded on the topic that Madara is faster than him (due in part to my in-depth knowledge on him) but kudos for posting this anyways

Most Bleach characters actually use spirit energy to form a platform to stand on.

But Gremmy didn't, nor does he need to

This was explained by Ikkaku during the full bringer arc (Can post scans), and further explained during the final arc by Mayuri who called the the move quincies use as “hirenkyaku”. Although I agree that Gremmy can use hirenkyaku to climb up or grow wings to fly up; however, the problem with that would force him to go really high in the air to avoid getting caught in the shock wave (Madara’s meteowas felt from countries away, so unless Gremmy moves really high up or distances himself by hundreds of miles or he will still get caught in it), leaving him vulnerable during his ascension to the wood clones. The wood clones can undo themselves at the last possible second, or even get hit. Not a problem to Madara as he can easily replace them.

Those shockwaves spread on ground lvl. He wouldn't have to fly more than a thousand feat in the air to be unaffected

Perfect Susanoo resisted Onokii’s particle release. An ability that destroys objects on near molecular level. Don’t see how Gremmy can matter manipulate an energy being that resisted manipulation on molecular level.

Destroying something =/= to changing it's fundamental properties. Matter transmutation and molecular destruction are nowhere near the same thing, they're completely different in all regards; they have a different process, a different outcome, different uses and different effects. So Madara tanking particle style in no way, shape, or form means his body (or susanoo) can resist being turned into an entire cookie, nor does Madara have any feats to show he can continue fighting when he literally isn't a human anymore. For example, Gremmy imagining Madara is a stuffed bear at the beginning of the fight. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's practical, and your earlier argument that Madara can continue fighting despite being another object couldn't apply to him with out invoking NLF, since he's never encountered that before nor anything even remotely close. So assuming he can is pure speculation on your part, and it doesn't help that you were using examples from entirely different series

In addition, Madara’s Susanoo rivaled Hashirama’s wooden golem. Hashirama’s wooden golem blocked the Kyuubi’s energy black and then deflected it at Madara who used his own PS to block and tank the blast. So, its very durable and resistant. Assuming he targets one of its blades, then Madara can just create new ones for it.

I can not stress this enough, Gremmy's imagination can ignore any and all durability, as it's been shown to do before. It wouldn't matter if Madara had 10,000 Susanoo's, or if he's tanked a planet busting attack. If Gremmy imagines all of his bones are sand, they would simply turn into sand

Yes; however, Madara can just create a new one. Right after Gaara pulled him, he created a new one. Destroying Susanoo means nothing as those who create Susanoo can recreate it on the spot.

Cool, Gremmy doesn't need to destroy Susanoo to access and manipulate the properties of Madara's real body anyways, so that'd be a detour for him

He would get caught in his own attack. The wood dragon attaches itself to targets and feeds on their energy to grow and become even stronger. If Gremmy uses lava to burn it, then he will get burned by his own attack.

Normally I would laugh this off, but since Gremmy has screwed himself with his own power before I'll actually have to provide a concrete reason for why that won't work.

The wood dragon doesn't literally "attach itself" to the target, it snakes and coils it's way around in order to bind/restrain the target, than absorb it's chakra in an almost vampiric fashion. If the head of the wood dragon is destroyed, it loses it's ability to consume it's opponents chakra and is ultimately defeated. This weakness was shown when Naruto and Bee fought against it. Gremmy has multiple ways of targeting the head and head alone (spam some missiles) and then there's my go-to argument:

Is there anything stopping him from turning the Dragon into something else entirely? (No)

Won’t really mean much. As I said before Ninja are cool with the vacuum of space.

Even if Madara could survive in space, (no feats supporting he can) there's still the problem that he's stuck in a pocket dimension with no way o return

Madara can sense when he is tangible and attack at that time.

Attack him when he's intangible? Or was this misworded? Madara has never sensed someone "about to go intangible and attack them before they became intangible" before. He has h2h combat precog only, he can't actually see into the future. So this isn't realistic and he isn't capable of doing that

Kyuubi’s energy blast can move at MHS. Yachiru sensed Lee, I doubt sage mode can't sense him.

Fair enough, sage mode can maybe sense his energies

Sure from Naruto chapter 447

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I’m not using human path, I’m using the gedo statue.

Good to know. But you practically debunk yourself in the next few posts, providing examples for why a soul crush wouldn't be possible (it still is), and even if it wasn't, it'd help my case as well because going by the same rules you later state, it's not likely for a soul rip to be used against Gremmy either (and I'll show why)

Well, considering this is a shared universe concept, spirit energy = chakra.

I had actually forgotten about this, thanks for reminding me

Soul crush is done by one that have a lot more spirit than the victim. If we’re going down that route then Madara is the one that spirit crushes as he matches Hashirama’s chakra level as he absorbed him.

Is soul crush an aftereffect of overwhelming reiryoku?


Does Madara have more energy than Gremmy?

Debatable, but probably so

Has Madara ever used his soul or manipulated his own soul in any way?

No, and this is where the possibilities of Madara soul crushing, (and Gedo Mazo soul ripping) meet their deaths. Equating the universe energies doesn't automatically give Madara abilities he's never demonstrated before, awareness he's never had, or resistance he's never shown. If you ask me, all equating the universe energies has down is remove the possibilities of an instantaneous gg for Gremmy, but there is no way you can flip it the other way around to make it so a Bleach character gets soul crushed just by equalizing Gremmy's one advantage. Quincies have fought overwhelmingly powerful shinigami before. Gremmy fought Kenpachi who has immense Reiatsu, and another example is Ywach fighting Yamamoto. Yamamoto's reiatsu is so powerful it manifest itself as flames the temperature of the suns core, and would passively destroy all of Seiretei by simply being released fully. Add that to the fact that every major character in Bleach is more or less spiritually aware, (or spirits entirely) and they have at least some form of soul manipulation resistance at extreme lowball. Either scenario of Gremmy losing soul-wise is absurd.

Even if we don’t consider the shared universe concept, spirit crush still won’t work as Chakra = spirit energy + physical energy, so Madara still has a lot of spirit energy to be fine from a spirit crush.

How does having 1/2 spirit energy and 1/2 physical energy (chakra) give Madara more spirit power than someone who's 2/2 spirit energy (reiryoku)? Where'd that math come from? Lol

And if we go even further and assume that it has to be the spirit energy in Bleach, then it still won’t work because Madara would be a normal human in those conditions and normal humans can’t be effected by spirit energy unless they have it.

Madara most definitely isn't a normal human lol. But I know what you meant

That is why Ichigo’s friends who had a little bit of spirit energy felt Aizen’s terrifying spirit energy, but a normal human walked all the way to him without feeling any repercussions (Should be noted that the human died when he came in direct contact with Aizen, but other soul reapers did as well, so it’s mostly Aizen’s aura).

Yeah, I gotta call PIS on that one. Kubo doesn't know how to write sometimes, and is worse than Mashima in that regard, and that was one of those cases. Honestly the entire latter half of that arc was ridiculous, but I know this type of response won't satisfy you so I'll just state the obvious:

You just contradicted yourself by saying that. First you claim-

Madara still has a lot of spirit energy to be fine from a spirit crush

You essentially state that Madara has massive spirit energy to be unaffected by soul manipulation, Then you go on to say-

Madara would be a normal human in those conditions and normal humans can’t be effected by spirit energy unless they have it.

^ Implying that Madara has no spirit energy whatsoever immediately after that. And before you go clamoring at me saying I quoted that out of context, remember your justification for that was-

if we go even further and assume that it has to be the spirit energy in Bleach

How could that "assumption" be possible, especially when YOU were the one who said this?-

this is a shared universe concept, spirit energy = chakra.

So, not only did you contradict yourself twice, you made an assumption that you yourself restricted; previously dictating it not to be possible, nor practical to use. If both cases, whether we apply the shared universe energy concept or not, it doesn't allow Madara to overcome Gremmy spiritually

There will be too many of them, he can’t imagine all of them into something else. 1 Madara made an entire battlefield into a forest filled with poisonous flowers, 27 Madara combing their wood release would make it much bigger, more thicker, and filled to the top with highly poisonous flowers.

Lmao Gremmy doesn't need to turn the entire battlefield back, that'd be pointless; he only needs to imagine the flowers in a small area (the area he's in) into something harmless, and he'd be able to breath. This is a viable option because Ohnoki practically did the same thing when he destroyed all the flowers in his immediate vicinity:

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So your reasoning for why Gremmy can't imagine the flowers as something harmless is because there'll be too many of them. That argument has now become null and void, since he only needs to change the sufficient amount he needs to provide air for himself

He would be caught in his own attack like with the wood dragon.

No. He can stay out of range and levitate in air, dropping lava

The Kages tried that, they got punched by Susanoo in waiting. The Madara army doesn’t have to hold the wood release, they can use it and be ready to strike Gremmy back in if he comes out.

He isn't the Kages, and Susanoo's arms turn into noodles

Will get caught in his own attack again.

Resorting to this logic over and over again is just another way to show you have no counter to his actual techniques, Gremmy repeatedly getting caught in his own attacks isn't realistic at all. It's not like he'll stay directly under it and let it fall on top of him

Madara was keeping up with the entire shinobi army and saw through sneak attacks and that was without using his MS (Which increases his perception) or sage mode (which makes sneaking an impossibility unless the sneaker is a lot faster).

Madara has exceptional sensing skills I'll give you that, but Gremmy has abilities to overcome that

Madara is one of the very few characters that can use his abilities without needing his eyes.

For example, he used his Susanoo while completely blind.

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He'd still be at a massive disadvantage, as he can not see nor fight properly. I appreciate you giving the context, so everyone should know Madara was significantly weakened and handicapped when this happened. It might allow him to continue his fight against Gremmy, but it doesn't help him win at all

Thank you!

Well you're a great debater, I have to give credit where it's due

Madara can quickly recreate his Susanoo. So when Gremmy imagines Madara out, then imagines Lava around him, Madara would have created a new Susanoo. Keep in mind that was an imperfect Susanoo (About the size of a tall skyscraper). The real one is as big as a mountain. So if Gremmy dropped a volcano on him, it still won’t reach Madara. So bringing the lava down first then removing Madara out won’t work.

How many times repeatedly can he keep doing that? And in reality this strategy is still plausible depending on who's faster; Madara deploying a new Susanoo or Gremmy materializing lava, in which I'd have to go with Gremmy.

Side note: Sasuke Susanoo was fine with lava on top of it. He was running low on chakra, though, and his susanoo just became couple of ribs. In addition, Mei's lava style wasn't what was burning it, it was her acid mist.

^The whole fight with Mei. His sasuke even as a mere rib cage was fine was lava.

Maybe Susanoo is fine with lava on it. I'll agree with you on that. But without it they're completely susceptible. And not only that, there's still the case the Gremmy turns Susanoo into lava.

Most of his abilities don’t need hand seals.

Madara's more powerful one's do

In addition, elite Ninja can skip the two hand seal issue (Haku used one hand, Adult Sasuke uses one hand, etc).

My point was Madara couldn't form hand seals nor move any part of his body at all. He'd be immobilized, so even using one hand like Minato wouldn't be possible

Madara’s soul is very strong. When the edo was undone he resisted leaving the body and then undid his contract with Kabuto and kept himself as an eternal edo with no contract. So his soul won’t leave if he becomes a rock or a cookie.

You're forgetting one key thing: He can't continue the fight as a cookie/rock. His edo body was human, had human form. Please tell me, what would it matter if his soul didn't leave his body, when his new body is a cookie? He'd have no way to turn back, and would be incapacitated, not able to continue the fight at all in his state. The example with Vegito was shady, if Buu was bloodlusted he would have ate him immediately. And I think Gremmy craves cookies btw

And Susanoo doesn’t need movement to come. Sasuke was able to create a Susanoo while completely immobile by Danzo’s sealing jutsu. So he can still fight, and considering that would surely distract Gremmy, Madara will get his body back.

Susanoo is pretty versatile, but in no way is Madara getting his body back. And I don't think he can deploy Susanoo as a rock

For example, as stated earlier, Owen Reece AKA the molecule man turned Bullseye into water, but Bullseye kept his soul

(Dark Avengers 11).

And same happened with Vegeta and Buu.

Unless you have feats that put Gremmy above molecule man and Buu, I rest my case.

Neither of the example you provided allowed the opponent to continue to fight to the best of their abilities in that state, as in defeat the opponent. Unlike the case with Buu when candy Vegito was fighting back, Gremmy will be bloodlusted, so if Madara turned into candy in the palm of his hand he'd eat him immediately instead of gloat like the typical dumbass shonen villain

A common misconception. Only one area inside the moon was terraformed, the rest was normal. It’s the same as saying the Earth have one cave filled with gold, so Earth is completely covered in gold.

Fair enough, although I've seen the last multiple times and I don't think that was stated anywhere

Why not? I already pointed out many ninjas that can hold their breath under water for an extended period of time, and in order to cast the IT he flew to outer space.

1. Holding your breath underwater won't mean you can breath in space. Best case scenario Madara would end up like Saitama when he landed on the moon. Unbothered by the conditions but still unable to breath (you can't hold your breath forever)

2. Madara didn't go to outer space to cast IT. He flew to the upper atmosphere

I suppose you can say that the Juubi gave him the power to hang in space, but considering Sasuke was in pursuit, one can safely assume that Madara can survive the vacuum.

Except Madara's never been in outer space

Madara can jump out of it, or use PS to come through. Kenpachi came out of it, so it is not like an inescapable attack. Furthermore, Gremmy needed 4 clones to do that attack and it was a tiny spot, so it’s not an attack that can be easily done or spammed and can be dodged.

Kenpachi only came out because Gremmy was talking to him, describing the effects of what happens to people in outer space. In the time Gremmy wasted conversing with Kenpachi he could have simply closed the opening, sealing Kenpachi in there and winning the fight via BFR. If he can open the rift then he can forcibly close it, so there's no reason why a bloodlusted Gremmy couldn't when fighting Madara. You can't dodge the attack either, the space materializes around you, so for now BFR'ing Madara is still an option

True, but now there are dozens of meteors in the air,

Only Juubi Madara has been shown capable of spamming Chibaku tensei's like that. You're using pre-juubi, who's best attack is Tengai Shinsei in which there are two meteors

and if Gremmy gets hit by one it’s over. Gremmy can’t exactly maneuver in the air, and won’t be able to dodge gigantic meteors moving between 25 kilometers per second to 160,000 mph (Asteroid-Meteor average speeds), nor can he destroy one as he shown no DC on that level. Madara’s Susanoo can maneuver and cut through them, so he’s fine, on the other hand.

Same as above. The impact from Tengai Shinsei meteors can be felt from miles away, but only on ground level, and both meteors, travel in a straight line. Avoiding them won't be difficult at all

Don’t want to sound like I’m low balling, but the fastest thing Kenpachi did was react to Nnoitra’s cero. No one knows how fast a Cero is. There are some insane theories that Cero is light speed because it looks like a laser. However, lots of street tier dodge lasers (Kamala Khan, for example, dodged nearly a dozen robot firing their lasers at the same time and she has normal human speed), and in Bleach, Nul was able to get in front of Ichigo to deflect a Cero and at the time she was just in her child form with no notable speed. So, I highly doubt that Cero is LS.

I never suggested cero was light speed, and it was only somewhat relevant here, so in reality you made a detour by debunking that. We can still scale Kenpachi off of other characters

And without the Cero feat, Kenpachi has almost no speed feats. He did fight Candice, but she easily dodged and tagged him, and at her best she is theorized as fast as lighting. So, Kenpachi has nothing to put him on that level.

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(Context: Candice was about to fry some SL, Kenpachi came from her back silently to attack, she saw him and not only dodged, but got behind him and tagged him).

Kenpachi was already injured and slightly weakened when he fought Candice- who by the way, can in fact move as lightning. Reacting to her is a speed feat in itself

Which captains did he fight that fought at such speeds and he kept with them? The only Captain I can think of is Tousen, and Tousen doesn’t have any noticeable speed feats (Without mask anyways). And when he fought Kenpachi he depended on robbing Kenpachi’s sight and hearing to tag him. Tousen also was not that powerful as he needed to go full hollow and still lost to another weak captain and an ok vice captain.

You misunderstood, not captains he has fought, but captains (and captain lvl shinigami) that he is comparable to

A bad precog considering Lee couldn’t react to Yachiru’s sword because it can cut past it’s range by a bit. Also, lots of Quincies were tagged with ease. So, VS is only good for a quick step forward or backward to dodge an attack that is seeable but too fast to dodge. Madara’s speed is far enough (by feats) to tag Gremmy without Gremmy noticing that he is about to be attacked.

Gremmy's physical movements are faster than Lee's, so Gremmy with VS should logically be above Lee with VS. And Gremmy doesn't need to keep up with Madara in an exchange of blows, just be fast enough to perceive and react to him in time, so that'd he'd be able to form a complete thought; which he is

He would have to see him first. Also, as I stated early, Madara won’t attack directly, it’s his clones that will attack (Clones have his speed), so turning their feet into rocks then they disappearing and another one taking its place will start doubting Gremmy making him confused on what he is fighting as he never fought or heard of anything like that.

And like I said, Gremmy doesn't need to defeat each and everyone of his clones one by one before any of his attacks affect Madara. Madara won't be able to summon wood clones of form seals if Gremmy imagined his hands as logs, or something else in his body that would immobilize his movement and incapacitate him from doing any actions

He was sweating, usually that is a sign of fear or exhaustion, not Frustration. He did get frustrated around the end and said he will simply imagine himself more powerful than Kenpachi and his body couldn’t handle all that power, hence why I said he has a finite amount of spirit energy.

He does indeed, but he has enough to complete the fight IMO, and he's bloodlusted here so I don't know if fear and frustration would apply to him(?)

Won’t work. Sasuke pierced and completely destroyed Naruto’s lungs in the first VOTE, and Naruto just healed it.

This means nothing, and is the second time you equated organic destruction with matter transmutation, when they're even remotely similar

Madara has better healing feats than Naruto (Healed all the damage from the bijuu + implanted an eye + reattached an arm all at the same time in seconds).

His healing factor doesn't extend to reversing transmutation. It seems as though you think that if Madara's head was turned into a rock, he would just "heal" is head back or simply grow a new one

Based of Madara’s statement to Tsanude, Her Ninja art creation rebirth is nothing more than something Hashirama’s body did on its own, and Tsunde agreed. Keep in mind Tsunde’s jutsu repairs everything even cells and allows the user temporary immortality, and that is something Madara’s body does on its own.

And yet, this still isn't a logical counter to transmutation; even if he can heal his cells, he can't reconstruct his DNA to give him the fundamental properties of an entirely different matter

Madara is very perceptive and a great strategist, him not catching such an obvious weakness and not exploiting it is completely out of character for him.

I didn't say Madara isn't smart or perceptible enough to not exploit the weakness, just that Gremmy wouldn't let his "distraction" to reduce the potency of his capabilities in a way that would play to Madara's advantage

Already talked about this. The things he changes keep their shape and properties,

We don't know if that'd be the case if turned completely, and there's always Gremmy imagining Madara as something without no shape, such as water or sand in which Madara couldn't fight back

they just become extremely fragile and thanks to Madara’s healing factor, he can easily overcome that.

You've said this so many times now that I'm starting to wonder why. Where'd you get the idea that healing factor reverses transmutation anyways? Healing factor/regeneration is an ability that repairs injuries, so how does that all of a sudden mean Madara has matter manipulation?

To put it in perspective, Obito got half of his entire body crushed. His brain, his heart, his lungs were all crushed and Madara were like “I can rebuild him, make him stronger and faster than before” (Million dollar man reference).

Yea but Obito was still human and had a human body, and that was with the help of Zetsu and Hashirama's cells

Not his brain. He always healed his body which he said was never there only his brain was really there. And as I already stated, Madara will know the brain is what creates his energy and uses that energy for his Izanami, so he will focus his attacks on the brain.

That's a nice strategy for Madara to use, but is too easy to defend against and will become apparent that he's attacking only his brain (I've shown several defenses measures gremmy can use against a majority of Madara's attacks)

Kenpachi’s sword was simply cutting through Gremmy’s chest and it did. So Gremmy doesn’t have Island busting durability.

But he can regenerate from cutting attacks of similar level. Madara's susanoo has cleaved through multiple mountains (island lvl cutting) so even if Gremmy gets bisected by Susanoo he could regenerate

Had the attack been on his brain, or he simply block it, or his body took very little damage from it, then it might have helped him here, but his best durability is the ability to harden up like steel, so anything that can cut steel can cut him.

Sometimes tanking attacks head on isn't necessary when you can counter it, in which he can. And yes, anything that can cut steel can cut Gremmy, we saw this happen when Kenpachi cut through him multiple times, so that's not surprising. The point I was trying to make is that he wouldn't die from any of those specific cutting attacks

He hasn’t shown the ability to regenerate his brain or the rest of his body for that matter from an attack of that level.

Neither has Madara

Kenpachi was stabbed by Mayuri’s sword after his fight was Gremmy, so Kenpachi, the toughest Bleach character, doesn’t have durability on that level.

He was already weakened after his fight with Gremmy, and this is where my argument that countering attacks comes into play. And Kenpachi has more resilience and tenacity that actual durability I believe. It's more like he just won't go down

I agree with that.

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Gremmy has really cool hax, but Madara is his kryptonite as he won’t be effected by most of his abilities and has more than one way to kill him.

Most of Gremmy has that you provided a counter for were really just self-asserted theories Madara could use to survive the fight. The most obvious example is your healing factor argument, in which you claim Madara can heal his body despite being made of a completely different substance than what he's used to or done before. The examples you used and logic you gave were convincing at face value, but when inspected closer, you'll realize that none of Madara's "counters" to Gremmy's abilities won't actually give him an advantage as far as the actual match goes, just postpone his inevitable death.

That is not the same. Being bloodlusted doesn’t mean you can’t be distracted. Hell, being bloodlusted usually makes the person more easily distracted.

Being bloodlusted means you're overcome with an insurmountable, insatiable desire for spilling blood; you're completely hellbent on the murder of your opponent, so much that nothing else matters in the world and the only thing on your mind is the absolute death of your opponent. If killing Madara is the one and only thing Gremmy is focused on (due to bloodlust), it would make no sense for him o be easily distracted by something else, losing his desire. He would top at nothing in order to kill him, and if killing Madara is the only thing he wants, he would try everything conceivably possible to obtain it. So gremmy's weakness of "getting distracted" is somewhat nonsensical here, as he would be more focused on ways to kill Madara than anything else

It takes 4 clones to stand in 4 angles around him and it takes the portal a bit before it closes, unless Madara is as slow as a slug he will get out of it.

It doesn't take a bit before it closes. Gremmy wanted Kenpachi to suffer in the void of space instead of BFR'ing him there, which is why he was deccribing the effects of what would happen when there:

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If Gremmy's objective was BFR then he would have done so. He literally just materialized Galaxy Room, leaving Madara there won't be an issue/ You're thinking Galaxy room is a hole with an opening that gradually shrinks overtime, and that you have to jump out to escape it. Gremmy made it instantly, and can dissipate it just as fast, while Madara is inside

In addition, Banishment rooms in Bleach aren’t that strong. Ulquiorra in base punched his way out of one.

Completely irrelevant. They don't work the same way

I wouldn’t use Sasuke’s special ability for Madara. That would be the same as saying Sasuke can use limbo. However, with that out of the way, I’d like to point out that Sasuke wasn’t very experienced with his rinnengan. He can now open a portal to any dimension and take multiple people with him. But, Sasuke is not here, so lets not derail the thread.

Maybe, but either way it proves my point Madara can't use dojutsu to ecscape

Unless Kenpachi is a lot faster or stronger than Madara, that is false.

Galaxy Room wasn't closed when Kenpachi was inside, Gremmy wanted him to die due to the effects not BFR. The fact still stands that Gremmy can create pocket dimensions, he can make one designed to BFR if he wanted to

Won’t work as Madara still has 26 clones to distract Gremmy

Gremmy isn't getting distracted, the clones get countered by Gremmy's clones, all the clones are imagined to revert back to logs and Gremmy BFR's

and return Madara to normal. Worse case scenario Madara summons Yama and heals himself fully.

Madara can not "heal transmutation" nor revert his body back

Already explained why that is impossible.

Turning Susanoo entirely into lava is, and Madara will already be inside

Madara doesn’t need eyes to use their abilities (Might have to do with his MS ability).

He's only been shown to perform one ability without eyes, saying he can use his entire powerset while blind (when most of it comes from vision) is a stretch

Not without hurting himself, and all the plans you posted for Gremmy are taxing (Galaxy room-Meteor summoning)

He can fly and rain lava, and just because they're stamina taxing doesn't mean he can't do it

Already debunked in this post.

In which you contradicted yourself twice, making your arguments shady and all over the place

Strategizing is very valid. Naruto (Who is considered dumb) used strategy while fighting to win on multiple occasions, best one in my book is strategizing to take out pain. Sasuke used Danzo’s habit of looking at his eyes to win. And Madara is smarter than both or at least equally as smart as Sasuke. So strategizing is a very valid advantage for Madara.

an advantage which wont give him the win, but let's see what you say about it in this colossal paragraph that follows:

Based on both of our plans + and posts so far, here is the most likely scenario:

Madara (Can see how lit Gremmy’s brain is and how empty his body is) starts the fight by using his fire release.


- Redirects it

- Douses it in water

- Creates stone pillars to block

- Hold it in a massive hand

Gremmy creates a body of water to block it, the fire release evaporates the water and continues toward Gremmy who uses his stone wall to block it.

Couple things wrong here, the fire wich has been countered by the water won't continue to come forward, it's been turned into steam already along with the water. Madara can create another fire release though, I'm assuming this is what you were thinking of when mentioned the 4th division earlier

(Madara has now seen that his brain is using energy, so he knows that the brain is his source of power. He also studies Gremmy and sees he does no hand seals or change in chakra, so he determines that Gremmy is using a bloodline that grant him an ability similar to Izanagi. Madara now starts being extra cautious).

Taking extra caution will make you slower, and will be difficult when the person you're fighting is hellbent on killing you, so you're constantly being pressured to defend against their attacks while simultaneously thinking of ways to defeat them

Madara quickly creates 26 clones to blend in with them or hide with a few of them (Most likely hide) and watch the fight to further study Gremmy. Lets say 10 clones hide with Madara, that would leave 16 wood clones all are equally as powerful as Madara (except durability).

Gremmy answers back with his own clones; except they won't be clones, they'll be genuine copies of himself with 100% of his power. This means he doubles his power with each and everyone clone made, and he's been shown to make up to 8 clones. Since Gremmy's power doubles with each clone he makes (and not every 2 he makes) his power after making 8 clones won't be 2 * 8, but in reality 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2, which is 2 to the 8th power. So in other words, Gremmy's power is 256x more powerful than his one actual body, which is unlike all cloning jutsu in Naruto where the user divides power amongst the clones. So while Madara has the raw number advantage, Gremmy has the power advantage, and there's nothing stopping Gremmy from making more clones (especially since he grows powerful the more he does). Originally when I first proposed this you said it wasn't possible due to the fact that big moves like this drain him, and you went on to give the example of the meteor and galaxy room. I knew something was fishy, so I went and double checked, and it was revealed that Gremmy showed absolutely zero signs of strain or fatigue when he made his meteor, or when he kept cloning. The only thing that actually been shown to take effort was Galaxy Room, so my point still stands that Gremmy can clone more. But I'll cap it here just to stay on the safe side.

The clones start by an all out fire style attack again from all directions (Gremmy can die here), Gremmy can maybe use his stone tower to climb up quickly; however, as your own gif with Obito shows, fire release can destroy stone.

Gremmy can make defensive dome like he did when he fought Kenpachi, or create a bunch of hands to hold or wave away the all the fire. And in the gif I showed the earth wall defended against the fire ball perfectly. Kakashi's body wasn't hurt, even if the wall was destroyed, which is the point of defense

Keep in mind that Madara is far more powerful than Obito, and his fire release is above Obito by a good distance. Now Gremmy sees that he will fall in a pit of fire. He now uses his hirenkyaku to stay up, and starts his attack by targeting the clones by dropping lava; however, the clones (all 16) bring out Susanoo that shrugs it off.

Gremmy turns all the Susanoo's into lava, killing the clones inside immediately. And at this point he's already unscathed by the fire release

(Gremmy is now a bit scared, and wants to finish this off quickly).

No, he is bloodlusted

(Gremmy can’t turn all 16’s bones into cookies or likewise things).

Based on what? There are 8 Gremmy's now, who collectively have 256x more imagination power than a single Gremmy, so it's completely possible for him to do that. Only reason it seems he can't because he's a jobber

Gremmy creates his clone and summons a meteor stating that this will kill all of them leaving him the only survivor, and laughs. The 16 clones laugh, for Gremmy’s shock, and each summon their own meteor.

Pre-Juubi Madara can only summon 2 meteors, 2 Gremmy's can summon one so 8 should summon at least 4. But going of my current logic he'd have 256x times power, so in reality he should be able to summon 128, but that sounds ridiculous to even me so I'll cap it a reasonable range if 4.

Gremmy is now terrified,

No, he is bloodlusted

he now has 17 giant sized meteors heading toward him, the sky is completely darkened by the meteors heading toward earth.

He flies in between the spaces of the meteors

Gremmy is trying to think of his next move and wondering why the clones aren’t running or scared. The clones are fine, they are just about to use their Susanoo bead attack to keep Gremmy occupied on them and to stay and die here (Gremmy can die). Gremmy in full panic and rage, makes his 4 clones (+ him that is total of 5),

None of the mindstates you've given Gremmy here are viable, so based of off that alone most of these arguments are sketchy af. Anyways Gremmy can make 8 clones, not 4

First clone:

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Seven additional clones:

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And before you say it, no, two of them aren't the same ones as before. I made sure to reread the chapters very carefully and they spawned in different locations. So 9 authentic Gremmy's in total, each individual one doubling his power (x2 for each)

and starts turning the clones’ bones into cookies and what not, and trying to avoid/block their bead attacks that they are firing.

I mean, there's nothing stopping him from turning them into cookies entirely, then they can't fire jack shit

He creates metal shield around the main him to help block and the other four protect him as best as they could while fighting the 16 clones.

N/A, he wouldn't have to create shields and has numerous ways to deal with clones; like turning their bones into something he's imagined before. I'll go with lava

Lets say they managed to turn all 16’s bones into cookies, they still remain as they are encased in Susanoo. Gremmy has no direct DC of destroying a Susanoo, even an imperfect one.

Gremmy's power can ignore durability. You yourself acknowledge he can turn things to cookies, and there's no durability that can "tank" that.

The clones are still struggling with protecting the main one from the Susanoo beads attack and coming up with a plan to deal with the meteors.

N/A, the clones won't be struggling from amything

That causes dissipation (Lack of concentration),

N/A. He'd still be concentrated on killing Madara

so Madara’s wood clones’ bones return to normal.

Maybe. But they've already been burned by Susanoo, which turned into a block of lava long ago

Since Madara’s wood clones share his intellect and strategizing, they decide to further study Gremmy. (At this point the meteors are too close, and Gremmy and his clones decide to just grow wings and fly up to escape, and hope the Madara army dies). (Madara has two escape routes here: He can run far away, Hashirama who is on Madara’s speed ran across countries within a couple of minutes tops, so Madara and his clones can get enough distance away to escape the immediate zone, then use wood style to block the incoming debris and ease the shockwaves, in addition they use Susanoo to prepare and use a spear head formation to make sure the real is safe.

I really, REALLY feel like a dick for doing this (and I hope it won't make me look lazy to the voters), but N/A to this whole paragraph. I've already countered all the necesseties for this entire paragraph, making this scenario inapplicable. Madara's clones would already be dead, and he can fly high enough to not get affected by the meteors impacts

If you feel like them leaving the city borders is a self BFR(I don’t think it is as they can come back right away, but I’ll leave it up to you)

It's fine. N/A anyways. In fact, your entire strategy from here on out is N/A because I deunked it's core. Your root argument and your thesis was just countered, so the rest of this justification is based of an inapplicable premise making it inapplicable as well

then they use the second method, the real Madara brings up his PS and flies team up in the atmosphere like Gremmy). Based on this we have two possible paths. If Madara escaped the city then he would come back after the impact when it’s safe and begin to change the battlefield into a giant forest, and wait for Gremmy to come down.

Even if Gremmy descends he can clear away a portion of the forest like Onoki

If this is the case, then it’s all over for Gremmy when he comes down as Madara now knows his abilities, his weakness, and set the field to his liking.

Ehhhh the scenario I made for myself would have Madara dead by this point so I'll wait and see what you have in store

In addition, he can set bobby traps, and absorb all the clones that he had to learn everything and improve his odds by taking in all the ideas the clones thought of while watching Gremmy.

Gremmy imagines Madara's bones are lava, or launches globs of lava at his clones and burns them again

Madara would then create couple more clones to avoid fighting 1 on 1 (Lets say 7) and summon Kyuubi which he combines with PS,

Gremmy drops a few meteors at this point

then using sage mode he senses where Gremmy is and fires dozens of Bijuu Dama combined with PS blasts toward him.

Gremmy opens a portal and all the Bijuu damas fly inside

Gremmy is dead up above, and if he comes down he is still dead. The second is if Madara flew up. During Gremmy’s ascension he would have lost some clones to the meteors

He only needs to be a thousand feat in the air or so to be unaffected by the meteors

and the Susanoo beads hitting them in the brain. Lets say 3 died, so 2 are left (So Gremmy + 1 clone).

N/A, and he'll possibly make more and gets stronger as he does

Similarly, Madara lost about 2 from Gremmy’s attacks.

No, he lost all of them, and they didn't die to an attack, they died having internal parts of them being turned into lava

Keep in mind that the rinnengan allows users to see from each other’s point of view at the same time + the MS’s precog ability + PS’s insane DC allows Madara to avoid hitting any meteors and taking any causality. So a total of 25 Madaras remain (24 clones + real Madara).

Once again, his clones are dead. I agree with the first part

Gremmy is now at his end. Since Madara is up high, with all 24 clones on his PS, in the atmosphere, Gremmy tries his ultimate move. Gremmy screams and calls Madara an unbelievable monster out of nightmares

I'm actually enjoying the way you potray Gremmy, because it's sooo in character for him to act like a baby and throw tantrums like that

and creates 3 more clones all of which go to four angles around Madara and open up his galaxy room.

As soon as gremmy materializes galaxy room Madara is caught of gaurd, and in the few seconds his lungs decompress and he realizes he's in space Gremmy closes of the portal of galaxy room and walks away, eating 25 dead bodies worth of cookies

Gremmy is screaming that this will end him. Madara’s PS is too big to fit in, so only a piece of is enveloped.

This is because Perfect Susanoo is mountain sized right? Well, then Gremmy just pulls him out

Some of Madara’s clones jump off the PS creating their own Susanoo and killing all the clones with slashed that destroys their entire body, while the main Madara moves out with no issue in his PS and slashes Gremmy destroying his entire body killing him. Madara then descends to the ground back on earth and keeps guard to be sure, However, the battle is over.

This would be plausible, if all of Madara's clones have died horribly already, in which they have- twice.

Why can’t Gremmy turn the real Madara up in the atmosphere into cookie, you ask? Because he still faces multiple Madaras and doesn’t know which is the real one.

Then he turns all their bloodstreams into lava, including the real one

His galaxy room was his last ace in the hole and it failed.

Not if he's bloodlusted and he uses it as BFR

Trying a weaker move won’t make much sense. Even if he gets lucky and gets the real one, the PS will still attack.

A LOT of Gremmy's weaker moves are more effective than his stronger ones

Why can’t Gremmy phase? Because Sage mode will let Madara know when is Gremmy there, and his PS is too fast for Gremmy to dodge.

You need to reiterate because it's not making sense. There'll be no need for him to dodge since he's already intangible, and sage mode won't make him physical again

Even if he stays phased the second he sees Madara, he will have to turn back eventually as he will be concentrating on staying phased.

Now this is true

And can’t attack or do anything else. Which will run out his energy, which is already low from all the moves he did.

Only one being Galaxy Room, which he's used to win

In addition if he can react to PS (I highly doubt), and only stay phased when PS is striking, then he won’t phase when Madara’s limbo clone smashes his brain entirely. Considering his limbo clone one shoted each bijuu including the Kyuubi, I doubt Gremmy can survive that.

Pre-Juubi Madara wasn't capable of using Limbo clones

Why can't gremmy turn Madara into a cookie at the start of the match? Because Madara is much faster, even you agreed to that.

Yup, it's true. Just because i'm debating against him this once doesn't mean I'll lowball the crap out of him

So the first attack will be his. If Gremmy decides to turn Madara into a cookie he won't harden up or put any defenses and would get disintegrated by the fire release, killing him instantly at the start of the match, and returning Madara to normal.

The first move will be Madara's but Gremmy can defend against that, and he has other surefire methods of winning

Why can't Gremmy just turn all 16 clones into cookies? Because he can only focus on one thing. Observed in his fight with Kenpachi, when he started fighting Kenpachi, Yachiru's bones turned to normal and Kenpachi even noticed such an obvious weakness. The difference here is Madara and his clones will actually take advantage of his weakness. He can turn 1 clone into a cookie and lets say he made 4 clones and each did the same, so 5 out of 16 Madara clones get turned into cookies while the rest targets Gremmy forcing him to release his concentration on the 5 Wood clones, or die from being attacked.

Gremmy will have tunnel vision focus on Madara's death when bloodlusted, each and every move he uses will be in his favor, and won't try to do something that won't either defend himself from an attack or be used to kill Madara.

In this scenario, they only benefit of doubt I can give you is that Gremmy won't be able to defend and attack at the same time

Start the Conversation

unfinished post

Man sorry for the delay

@shirso said:


Maybe individually, but you are facing 3 highly experienced opponents with perfect teamwork here. A well coordinated assault between the 3 would be dangerous for Madara if he underestimates them.

Madara is a smart man, he rarely takes things lightly. Whether his opponents have perfect team work or not, Madara has single handedly defeated entire armies by himself, and held his own against Team 7 and other characters all at once, who together pose a greater threat than the admirals. There are an overwhelming amount of examples of Madara's strategical mind and battle experience. If anything, Madara has the overwheming tactical advantage.

Well, so far you haven't shown which attacks can bypass my intangibility, and my numbers advantage makes up for the slight edge in DC you might have.

The admirals intangibility isn't true intangibility (like the kind that comes with Kamui) but rather elemental intangibility. Kizaru is the only problem here as far as I'm concerned, but both Aokiji and Akainu can be destroyed by TSB's, since neither can regenerate their specific element once it's been atomized (destroyed on a molecular level). And Kizaru's greatest durability feat is in the One Piece Z movie like you linked, but he had a frightful expression when Z detonated the island. That alone, (and the fact we've never seen him regenerate from something greater) gives me the impression that the limit of his durability maxes out around island level (possibly country if we scale to Akainu) and Madara has more than enough firepower to match and overcome that. Intangibility is a great power, but unless it's complete spatial intangibility, we have to assume there are limits for it or we'll be dancing with NLF.

I assume this means you have a healing factor as opposed to true immortality, which is cool, but he can still be KO'd I think, or frozen by Aokiji, or a laser through his head by Kizaru will most likely drop him.

Madara has excellent regeneration, and though he doesn't have intangibility, his healing factor easily rivals anything we've seen from the admirals so far by feats. Madara has massive, widespread fire release jutsus to hard counter Aokiji's ice. If Ace can stalemate Aokiji at marineford, then Madara can sure as hell overpower him with fire. Madara has precog and sharingan to dodge any attacks or blasts Kizaru has, and even though Kizaru is incredibly fast, Madara has reacted to teleportation and other attacks before showing incredible combat speed and reaction

Reacts to Tobirama's teleportation:

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Reacts to and no solds a combined attack from kamui and Minato's Flying Thunder God

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His reaction speeds are further enhanced with precog. I'm sure he could dodge a few beams from Kizaru. As for Akainu (and his magma attacks), Madara's incomplete Susanoo ribcage was able to tank a blast of corrosive lava from the Mizukage unharmed:

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Going off that feat, (which used an incomplete susanoo ribcage) it's safe to say that a perfect completely body Susanoo can tank any attack that Akainu throws at it. Long story short, none of the admirals have a way to hurt him at all

Chikabu Tensei is the meteor spam thing right? That's honestly a great attack, but unfortunately irrelevant here because of the Admirals' intangibility. Even then Aokiji can probably freeze them up or Akainu vaporise them. Not that a purely physical attack is doing shit to the Admirals anyway.

The mere fragments of the the destroyed meteors were dwarfing mountain ranges:

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Kuzan has never frozen something that large and moving that fast, and likewise Sakazuki has never vaporized anything near that level, nor does Borsalino have any DC feats to suggest he can overcome it. The meteors could probably obliterate Kuzan and Sakazuki, (if that won't TSB will) and it would definitely disperse Kizaru. In the One Piece Z film, Kizaru was disperesed by the attack that busted the island and he didn't regenerate anytime soon after that:

The poison trees are a potential threat, but here's where Observation Haki helps. The Admirals will easily recognize the danger, and given their attack speed, Aokiji will simply flash freeze them, or Akainu burn them to a crisp (they are just trees after all).

Maybe, maybe not. Good thing they have it here then.


Now I admit Madara will likely overwhelm an Admiral 1v1 given his stats and versatility, maybe even 2, but 3 of them, coming at him with perfect coordination and teamwork? No way is he surviving that.

Also the Logia intangibility unfortunately makes about 99% of Madara's vast powerset useless. I know Naruto verse does have a few moves to deal with intangibility, but its just not a thing in their verse, meaning Madara is a fish out of water against my team. I do have a hunch what you will bring up to counter this, but I will wait for your next counter for that.

Here's my general plan.

Kizaru will act as the blitzkreig unit and air support. With his exceptional speed, he will fly high, and constantly bombard Madara with his barrage of island busting lasers. Madara is definitely fast, but I doubt he is as agile or has as good travel speed as a guy literally made of light.

Aokiji and Akainu will engage Madara head on. Aokiji with his flash freezes will act as the defensive perimeter, keeping Madara at a distance and freezing up any projectiles or large scale AoE attacks he sends their way. He will also constantly be on the lookout for any openings to flash freeze Madara. As far as I know Madara has never faced extreme cold before, so this might very well be a KO if Aokiji can pull it off.

Akainu has arguably the best physicals and durability, he can definitely take a beating (though it will be Aokiji's job to ensure he doesn't), and will pound Madara from range with his magma fists.

It will certainly be the fight of their lives, but between their intangibility, numbers advantage, teamwork and versatility, I think they can edge this out.

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Gremmy Thoumeaux CAV/Respect Thread


The most powerful force in this world is "imagination". Anything I imagine, anything at all, becomes reality."

Gremmy Thoumeaux in "DEATH IN VISION"

The Visionary

The stupidest reality warper in fiction
The stupidest reality warper in fiction


Gremmy Thoumeaux is a Quincy, and a member of Ywach's elite Quincy army, the Sternritter. He is one of the more powerful ones, and has the letter designation of "V, The Visionary".

Things to know about Gremmy-

Anyone who reads Bleach or at least has knowledge on his character will know this important fact- Gremmy is a massive jobber, and possibly one of the stupidest combatants ever. He nearly died during his battle with Kenpachi by thinking himself dead, and his powers could've allowed him to kill Kenpachi multiple time but didn't. I say it's the biggest PIS ever, and blame it on Kubo. That's why Gremmy doesn't appear as strong as he really is, but in reality (pun intended), a bloodlusted gremmy is a formidable opponent.

Apologies to both sophia and the voters if it seems like Madara was heavily nerfed to make this fair, I only asked to restrict genjutsu to avoid debates about it, since it's a hot button topic. And Madara couldn't use light fang anyway, as this is pre-Juubi

Powers and Abilities:

Gremmy is a reality warper.

Yes, a freaking reality warper.

His powers are massive, and rivals anyone in the Narutoverse in pure hax easily. He's absolutely broken, and even his limited PIS showings are incredibly impressive, when you realize what the mechanics are behind it. I'm going to explain his character and powers in such a way that by the end of this post, you'll fully appreciate what a non-jobbing (bloodlusted) Gremmy is capable of.

Since I don't want too venture into NLF territory, I'll be applying the limits of his power that Gremmy has shown (won't kill Madara with a thought). Gremmy has demonstrated:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, and durability
  • Regeneration (mid)
  • Reality warping
  • Life creation
  • Matter Transmutation
  • Lava manipulation
  • Water manipulation
  • Terrakinesis (earth and stone manip)
  • Weapon Creation
  • Death manipulation
  • Flight/levitation
  • Energy sensing
  • BFR (can release his opponents to dimesnional rifts in space-time)
  • Hardening
  • Self-Duplication (can create clones of himself who each have 100% of the originals power)
  • Stats amplification (when cloned)
  • Can summon meteors

Powers and Abilities through his creation, Guenael Lee-

These are the powers and abilities Gremmy bestowed upon his creation Guenael Lee. Gremmy (using his visionary power) was able to create a separate entity/creature who had it's own personality, was fully self-conscious and self aware, so essentially it's own being. The fact that Gremmy created him along with his powers, (showing that the range and extent of his reality warping allows him to create powers for others) meaning he's capable of using these abilities, but never utilized them his battle with Kenpachi due to PIS

  • Can become completely imperceptible
  • Complete spatial intangibility
  • Complete invisibility
  • Can manipulate his opponents memories
  • Can disappear and reappear in his opponents conscience at will
  • Mind reading
  • Spiritual awareness

Basic Quincy Powers-

Blut - Quincy's have the abilitiy to make Reishi (spirit energy) flow directly into their bloodstream, greatly increasing ther offense and defense, as well as their physical prowess.

Hirenkyaku - Allows for high speed movement by applying reishi directly to the users feet

Reishi Manipulation - As all Quincies do, Gremmy absorbs spiritual energy from the atmosphere and combines it with Reiryoku to form spiritual weapons, like the Heilig Pfeil

Ransotengai - A unique ability that allows the user to control their body parts with lines and strings of Reiryoku from their brains,. This allows them to move their bodies about like puppets, and to continue fighting freely despite paralysis, broken bones, wounded limbs and other injuries. Similar to Neferpitou from HxH

Sternritter Schrift-

Gremmy has the letter designation from Ywach entitled V. I will quote his wikia page as follows for a description of what it is:

The Visionary (夢想家 (ザ・ヴィジョナリィ), Za Vijonarī; Japanese for "Dreamer"): Gremmy has the ability to turn fantasy into reality. For example, if he imagines that the bones in someone's arm are made of cookies, this will become true.[6] By imagining that his body is "more sturdy than the strongest steel," he can drastically increase his defense.[20] He can instantly heal any wounds inflicted onto him by imagining that it has already healed.[21] Using this power, Gremmy can also create elements and substances from his mind, creating lava, water and even creating a gigantic stone platform and steel pillars to attack and defend against opponents and manipulate them as he sees fit.[22] Gremmy can also create real weapons around himself, ranging from machine guns to missiles, in order to attack his opponent......


Feats Gremmy demonstrated through Guaneal Lee-

Read Isane's mind and instantly appears behind her:

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Can erase his existence from other people's memories:

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Attacks Yachiru while invisible:

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An explanation of his power. He can be completely invisible and intangible, as well as imperceptible by his opponents

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A more in-depth explanation of his power. He has three versions of it and can attack while invisible

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He can erase his existence from others memories and exceed their reaction speeds

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Feats Gremmy has shown with his main body

Easily slips inside a barrier using his imagination

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Gremmy reveals that Lee was simply a product of his imagination and erases him from existence effortlessly:

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Obliterates Lee's physical body, then erases him from memory

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*big feat* Killed two people by thinking it

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*big feat* Turns Yachiru's bones to cookies by thinking it

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Turns the rest of the bones in her body into cookies

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Gremmy explains his hax power. He's simply broken, and there's no other way to put it

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Creates a large stone platform as a battle ground to fight Kenpachi

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Creates lava instantly, and traps Kenpachi in a block of water:

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Drops kenpachi into stone to suffocate him while underwater

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Blocks a slash from Kenpachi with a metal pillar, however his weakness is shown. To bad that weakness won't apply here, as it is 1v1

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Creates layers of stone walls to block Kenpachi's attack, then wonders why he chose to fought him instead of killing him immeadiately

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Created multiple weapons, missiles, and firearms to attack Kenpachi

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Redirects an explosion and creates a steel dome. Materializes blades from the dome

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Creates a massive hand that squashes kenny

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Can create life, essentially cloning himself. However, his cloning is special. Unlike most types of cloning in fiction (where the user divides their power amongst the clones) Gremmy's cloning ability doubles his power with each clone made, and each one has 100% of the original. He can make at least 7 or 8 clones, and at just two clones Gremmy was capable of creating a gargantuan meteor

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Not only that, none of his clones can die (unless they forget to make themselves that way, but the version of Gremmy I'm debating isn't in character, so they won't do something stupid like that)

The meteor was capable of destroying Seretei. Seretei is only the size of a city visually, but when calced using Yoruichi's gate statements in chapter 76 it's at least large island lvl.

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There've been multiple calcs to support it, all reaching the same conclusion. It takes 10 days just to walk a quater of the circumference of Seretei

Creates 7 additional clones:

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Creates a pocket dimension that simulates outer space:

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Detonates one of his clones:

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Accidentally kills himself:

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Speed and Durability:

Reacts to Yachiru and reacts to a blitz from Kenpachi (trapping him in water)the latter who's MHS

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Reacts to another blitz from the MHS Kenpachi

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Makes his sin harder than any steel

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Can regenerate wounds by imagining he's healed. Gremmy has regenerated from being bisected

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It should be noted that that slash he tanked was from shikai Kenpachi, meaning gremmy has survived blows from attacks capable of one-shotting island level meteors

Gets cut to trap Kenny's sword

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Gremmy has the ability to turn anything he imagines into fantasy, anything at all. With that in mind, here are 5 different scenarios for why he can and will beat Madara:

1. Gremmy has the ability to create life with his power. This is why his clones are 100% authentic and just as strong as he is, and why he was able to create Lee. In other words, Lee's entire existence was nothing but a product of gremmy's imagination, yet it was real. So we know the range and extent of Gremmy's imagination, and the type of powers he can think of. This means Gremmy's reality warping (imagination) is capable of-

  • Complete spatial intangibility
  • Complete visual invisibilty
  • Can erase his existence from other's memories
  • Can manipulate other people's conscience

I see no reason why a bloodlusted, non-jobbing Gremmy can't imagine himself with these powers, since we know he's capable of imagining them. That's if he really wanted to win, so in other words, Madara can not see Gremmy, can not physically attack Gremmy, and will constantly forgot what he's doing and why he's doing it.

2. Gremmy was able to create lava instantly, and trap Kenny in a cube of water. I see no reason why Gremmy can't insantly trap Madara in a cube of lava, killing him immeadiately

3. Gremmy was able to turn Yachiru's bones to cookies and kill two people by instantly thinking it. That means can completely bypass someone's durability and affect internal organs

I see no reason why Gremmy can't turn Madara's entire bone structure into a cookie, completely immobilizing him. As a matter of fact, I see no reason why he can't turn his brain into a cookie the second the fight starts

4. Gremmy was able to create a pocket dimension with the characteristics of outer space, I see no reason why Gremmy can't win by enveloping Madara in that void and leaving him there

5. Gremmy has the ability to duplicate himself, and with just 2 clones he was capable of creating a meteor potent enough to destroy Seretei. Gremmy doesn't get weaker the more clones he creates, his power doubles with each and every clone he makes. He's been shown to make 8 clones, I see no reason why Gremmy can't make 4 meteors, that would wipe out Madara. Also, there isn't a real reason why he can't continue cloning himself, since he gets stronger every time he does.

Now before you say Gremmy can't do any of this, you must realize that he's demonstrated these powers (whether indirectly or not), and he didn't use them due to sheer PIS. Madara's best hope is blitzing him, but pre-juubi Madara doesn't have any feats putting him above MHS+, and Gremmy can react to the MHS Kenpachi so Madara would need to be at least sub-relativistic to blitz (whih he wasn't at this point). But as shown through Lee, Gremmy can imagine abilities that are designed specifically to overcome his opponents reaction speed, making blitzing nigh-impossible.

Why didn't Gremmy just turn Kenpachi's bones to cookie the second the fight starts? Has he not shown the capability to do so? Why didn't Gremmy continue to clone himself, doubling his power exponentially? Why did he stop? Why didn't he just kill Kenpachi by thinking it. He was able to kill two top fighters by imagining their deaths, and nearly killed himself by imaging he's dead, meaning Gremmy's imagination extends to death manipulation.

So before you say none of the scenario's listed are possible, just know that Gremmy is bloodlusted, meaning he'll go for the kill immediately and won't start jobbing. And I've given 5 methods Gremmy has of instantly killing Madara,, backed by in-depth analysis and previous scans.

Gremmy's mindset is the reason he'll win this battle.

That is all. Good luck!

Start the Conversation

Naruto CAV/Respect Thread


Lord Hokage:

Hero of The Hidden Leaf
Hero of The Hidden Leaf


Naruto Uzumaki is the main protagonist of the eponymous Naruto franchise. He was a young baby born unto the couple of Kushina Uzumaki and Minato Namikaze, (the 4th Hokage) and was the host of the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox. After joining Team 7, he worked hard as a ninja to gain acknowledgment from the village that shunned him, and completed a series of missions with increasingly powerful villains throughout the series. In the years that followed, after suffering through many hardships and ordeals, he gained renown and recognition from not just his village, but the entire world. His efforts from the 4th Shinobi World War and forward allowed him to achieve his lifelong goal of becoming Hokage.

Powers and Abilities:

The titular character of the show, Naruto is a well known, popular, and exceedingly powerful fictional character. He is easily one of the top 5 strongest characters in his own verse, and is a prime example of flawless character development. At the beginning of the series he was a inept in the Ninja Academy, failing to graduate three times before becoming a shinobi. But through sheer determination and perseverance, he grew dramatically in power, going from city block level in part one to moon level by the end of the part two. Currently, Naruto is regarded as the strongest Kage in history, and was capable of defeating powerful members of the Otsusuki clan (god-tier shinobi) and was a key combatant in the 4th Shinobi World War`.

Unlike Saitama who's purely physical, here's a run down of Naruto's diverse and exotic powerset:

  • Superhuman strength, speed, and durability
  • Immense stamina (due to Uzumaki lineage and Kurama chakra)
  • Shapeshifting (transformation jutsu)
  • Cloning (can make thousands of shadow clones)
  • Energy manipulation
  • Wind Manipulation
  • Elemental manipulation (all five nature transformation via TSB)
  • Summoning
  • Regeneration
  • Superhuman agility
  • Size alteration (chakra arms)
  • Energy constructs
  • Chakra distribution
  • Flight/Levitation
  • Lava Manipulation
  • Steam manipulation
  • Ink manipulation
  • Magnetic binding
  • Yin-Yang manipulation
  • Various sealing techniques
  • Precognition
  • Energy sensing
  • Healing

^ This is especially impressive when you realize he's up against someone who only knows how to punch and kick

Chakra and Physical prowess

Naruto has massive reserves of seemingly bottomless chakra (energy) which is due largely in part to his Uzumaki lineage, Jinchuriki hosting, and reincarnation of Asura Otsusuki. It was estimated to be four times larger than Kakashi's, and after receiving chakra from all the Tailed Beast it expanded even further. Originally he used to struggle to control his chakra, but through hard work and training he gained such precise control that he could distribute it to others and perform one-handed seals.


Naruto is capable of utilizing all 5 nature transformations as well as Yin-Yang release. By manipulating his chakra (energy), Naruto can perform special techniques known as jutsu, which has three categories- Ninjutsu (powers), Taijustu (hand 2 hand combat), and genjutsu (illusions and sensory manipulation). Naruto can't perform genjutsu but he can counter it, and is well-versed in both taijutsu and ninjustu. As stated by Kakashi (sixth Hokage himself), his skills as a ninja are second to none. He has two signature techniques, both of which are trademarks of his fighting style. The first is Shadow Clone jutsu, and later the Rasengan.

Shadow Clone Jutsu (Kage Bunshin) - After performing a cross shaped hand seal Naruto can create a large amount of clones that are extremely versatile and can be used for a variety of purpose, including aiding him in battle or serving as distractions. He can create over 1,000 shadow clones and surround his opponent for an omni-directional attack.

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Rasengan (and variants) - Naruto's second signature technique is the rasengan, an ability created by his father, the 4th Hokage. The user first condenses a ball of chakra in their hands and begins to whirl it, creating a spinning orb of chakra then used to smash and grind into it's opponents. Naruto was able to upgrade the technique on several levels and create multiple forms of it

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Rasengan, Big Ball rasengan, and Wind release rasengan respectively

Creates Wind release: Rasenshuriken which is so fast Kakashi can't see it with his sharingan. Not only that, it cuts on a cellular level:

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More elaborate variations of Rasengan:

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^ Those scans were of rasengan's before the war. These are war arc Naruto's rasengan's.

First up is rasengan barrage on Ultra Big Ball Rasengan:

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Planetary Rasengan, which sends Muu flying through stone pillars:

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Ultra Big Ball Rasengan with Sage's chakra:

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Summoning Justu - A space-time Ninjutsu that allows the user to summon animals and objects from long distances for a variety of purposes. naruto made a contract with the Toads, so he can summon them to aid him in battle:

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Sexy Jutsu + Harem no Justu - Pervet GG

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There are a lot more, but I will be saving those for later versions, which are in this opener.

Feats/Respect Thread

Now that we've gotten his actual powers out of the way, it's time to see his feats, how he's used them, and how they'll be used to beat Saitama. Naruto has a lot of feats, so I'll be dividing them into the powerups that he performed them in.

Shippuden (pre-war arc):


One Tailed naruto punched Orichimaru deep through a forest and was capable of breaking the ground with single strikes:

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The sheer release of his version 1 three-tailed form form has enough force to blast Kabuto and destroy part of the bridge:

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Enters 4 tailed form (version 1). The air pressure of 4 tails destroys a large section of the forest, and later causes a massive shockwave by flicking his hand:

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Fires a Tailed Beast Bomb, which is a massive energy blast:

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Six-Tails Naruto resisted Pains Shinra tensei and fires an immense TBB:

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Strong enough to lift a giant statue with ease. Can destroy Pains body with a single blow:

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Casually grabs and throws a giant Rhino

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Blitzed Orichimaru

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Several FTE instances:

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Blitzes the paths of pain:

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Attack Deva Path in less than a 5 second timeframe (time interval of shinra tensei):

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Competes with the 3rd Raikage in terms of speed and dodges his attack (while he's enhanced by lightning chakra)

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Durability -

4 tails Naruto tanked the sword Orochimaru's Sword of Kusanagi to the chest. It is stated to be able to cut through diamond.

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Has a regenerative ability. He can also tank blows from pain and a shinra tensei:

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Jinchuriki Powerups/Transformations (War arc):

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- Nine-Tails chakra mode, (Or KCM)form is the state in which Naruto gained after absorbing the Nine-Tails chakra. It significantly augments his strength, speed, stamina, durability, and overall power.

- Kurama mode, or Tailed Beast Chakra mode, is a heightened transformation Naruto gains after synchronizing with Kurama and learns his name. It greatly increases his physical parameters as well as his powers and abilities. In this form, he can create a partial transformation into Kurama itself, projecting a fox-shaped avatar around his body

- Six paths Sage mode is yet an additional powerup Naruto receives after gaining half of Hagoromo's chakra, allowing him to use Six Paths senjutsu. He gains the ability to use truth seeker orbs six paths techniques

- Six paths Tailed Beast Mode, Naruto's currently most powerful shown form. He absorbs Nature chakra from the surrounding area and gains three heads and six arms. In this form he can fire Six Paths: Ultra Big-Ball Rasenshuriken that clashes evenly with Sasuke's Indra's arrow

Bijuu Bomb (Tailed Beast Bomb) -

The ultimate attack of the Tailed Beast, an incredibly dense ball of powerful chakra that can be fired as a beam, wave, or ball.

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Six Paths Sage Jutsu:

Ying-Yang Release (Onmyoton)-

Yin-Yang release is a combination of Yin Release (spiritual energy) and Yang release (physical energy). Users of Yin Yang release have access of every known ninjutsu in creation, and can nullify the effects of any and all known ninjutsu used against them, rendering it useless.

Truth-Seeking Ball (Goudama)-

Truth seeking balls/orbs are malleable spheres of black chakra composed of all 5 nature transformations and Yin-Yang release. They can be molded and shaped in different ways for a variety of purposes. Any power that comes in contact with the orbs will be negated, and the TSB have the ability to disintegrate all matter at a molecular level, completely destroying what they touch and nullifying regeneration of the Edo (similar to Dust Release and All-Killing Ash Bones).

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Strength and Power:

Crushes a large stone block with his chakra arms. Strong enough to push Bee's Bijuu bomb through several layers of rock:

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Capable of fighting off multiple tailed beast:

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Breaks through Madara's Susanoo:

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His rasenshuriken, along with Bee's Tailed Beast Bomb and Itachi's magatama, destroy Chibaku tensei's core. Later he sends Muu flying back through a rock pillar with Planetary Rasengan:

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Can repel multiple mountain busting Bijuu bombs:

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*Massive feat* Naruto can make a bijuu bomb that equals that of five tailed beast and busts an entire mountain range:

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*Massive feat* Can create a TBB with Killer Bee that causes enourmous destruction:

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Naruto can spam these attacks:

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Can enter an avatar state of Kyuubi and create Massive Rasengan's:

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Can transfer his chakra to others, boosting their abilities:

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Kurama gets clad in Susanoo and dishes out chakra to the Konoha 11. Together they make a combined attack against Juubito:

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Six Paths Sage Mode-

Kicks away Madara's TSB:

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Becomes Ninja Jesus and stabalizes Guy's life force, preventing him from dying due to 8th Gates. He also gives Kakashi a brand new eye:

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Sage Art Lava Release Rasenshuriken bisects the God tree, which is wider than several mountains:

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*Massive feat* Bijuudama Rasenshuriken obliterates Madara's Chibaku Tensei meteors. The explosion itself dwarfs mountains ranges and generates energies capable of destroying small countries:

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His chakra arm punches can match Kaguya's. Later when he fought Sasuke he could go toe to toe with Sasuke Susanoo, despite it having chakra from all the tailed beast.

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An extremely de-powered Naruto, while weakened, can still batter Sasuke physically. Note that at this point he's been fighting for days on end without rest.

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*Massive feat* - Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken. It utilizes the chakra of all the 9 tailed beast, and creates a monstrosity of out Kaguya who eclipses small mountains:

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Block a huge fireball from Sasuke:

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Naruto's six paths ultra big ball rasenshuriken can clash evenly with Sasuke's Indra's Arrow (his most powerful jutsu) and creates a massive sphere of destructive chakra:

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Size of Naruto's and Sasuke's cataclysmic explosions. Look at the mountains below for reference.

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Moves fast enough to be compared to Minato, who is reknown as the fastest ninja in history, and bee only sees a yellow flash when he moves:

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Dodges attacks from 4th raikage and blitzes a group of white Zetsu:

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Blitzes Madara, who can react to and keep up with 8 Gates Guy (albeit barely):

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Fast enough to react to Madara's lightning

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Dodges Light Fang point-blank, which does in fact travel at the speed of Light:

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https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/naruto-lightspeed-reactions-1701627/ And it has been confirmed various times

Reacts to Kaguya, who compliments him on his speed:

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Blitzes Kaguya and cuts her arm off. Later he reacted to Sasuke's teleportation:

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Tanks a direct Punch from Ay, who's strong enough to break through Susanoo. Can block a sword with his hands:

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Withstands multiple attacks from the jinchuuriki, some of who's attacks are corrosive:

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Brushes away Obito's large scale fire jutsu and tanks Madara's sword:

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Tanks a direct hit from Juubi. Not only that, the chakra cloaks he gave out protect the shinobi from country wide natural disasters:

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Truth seeking balls can tank Sasuke's Indra's Arrows;

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Tanks a hit from Sasuke's Susanoo. His fall alone destroys mountains:

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Tanks a fall from the upper atmosphere with no protection. That's tens of thousands of feet in the sky, a regular person would be dead before they hit the groud. Yet he can still fight:

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Tanked amaterasu, which can burn even other fire. tanks a slug fest between him and Sasuke. Keep in mind he's been accumulating damage from multiple foes the entire war (Jinchuuriki, Juubito, Juudara, Kaguya) and can keep on fighting. His dexterity and resilience is astonishing:

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The Last (feats)

Rasenshuriken slices and dices through multiple bodies like a hot knife through butter

A small bit of naruto's chakra is removed from his body by Toneri, yet it has the power to blow a hole in the crust of the Moon

Naruto's agility as he navigates through the air

Naruto's Planetary rasengan counters Toneri's rebirth explosion. This attack blew through the crust of the moon.

Awesome fight sequence

Blasted Toneri out of a TSB shell

Tanks an attack that cuts through the moon unfazed

Spams shadow clones with big ball rasengan

Powers through the same attack by focusing chakra into his arm

Delivers the punch of love

Cool Sasuke moment for all my Sasuke fanboys

Conclusions and Counters

While this is where I would normally voice my counters, you have not presented your arguments (or any of your info for that matter) in a logical sequence that would allow me to refute your points properly. Your reasoning for why you think Saitama would win is scattered accross your opener, and is not backed by any evidence as you did not include scans.

That being said, there are some things that I'd like to single out that I though deserved some attention:

Saitama is massively faster than Naruto. Think of it as something along the lines of one character being MFTL while the other being arguably close to LS reactions.

In terms of quantifiable feats, Saitama has not demonstrated anything that is even LS, talkless of MFTL. His jump to the moon was sub-relativistic, and he is relativistic if you scale him off of Boros. At this point he's not even faster than Might Guy.

The amount of power behind that punch which vaporised a canyon and terraformed it, is immense. Far above anything Naruto can do.

That is certainly impressive, amongst Saitama's best feats. It's better than any striking feat Naruto has ever shown, especially when you realize it was the shockwave of his blow that did that. However, Naruto doesn't rely on pure striking, and has a feat greater than that one in Boruto. He was able to charge up a massive rasengan for Boruto, despite being restricted by black receivers and weakened. This rasengan was powerful enough to disintegrate the mountain sized God tree, vaporise Momoshiki's skin, and send him into the upper atmosphere.What is the point in being a glass cannon when you are destroyed before you can inflict any damage.

What is the point in being a glass cannon when you are destroyed before you can inflict any damage.

I think you're referring to Genos on this one, because it's definitely not Naruto lol.

Naruto is not hurting him, period.

This is completely and utterly wrong. Saitama has never encountered an attack that engages him on a microscopic level, those two being Rasenshuriken and TSB. One of them cuts his cells, and the other destroys his atoms/molecules which he can't regenerate from. And Bijuudama Rasenshuriken (the attack that erased Madara's meteors) uses a TSB for it's base and has the rasenshuriken wind blades surrounding it, making for an attack that will delete Saitama completely if he's tagged.

Excuse me, when he's tagged.

Naruto has NEVER shown any ability to tank even HALF the damage serious punch saitama

Incorrect. Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion x2 > "half" a serious punch.

I hope you don't wank the moon feat to infinity. It was proved multiple times that it was a hollow moon and Naruto actually had a resistance towards that beam. It wasn't even an attack strong enough to literally split it in half as the moon was still held together.

Well you're in luck, I'm not one of those fans. I've watched The Last movie like 8 times and I do believe the moon to be hollow.

The same goes to that bullshitty lightspeed fang feat. Do not use that to prove Naruto is FTL otherwise

Dodging a beam that travels at the speed of light would put at around light speed. I still stick to my beliefs that no one in the Narutoverse is FTL, but that's highly debatable and is just my opinion. Too bad none of that matters anyway, as Naruto is faster than Saitama


Scenario 1-

Pretty simple. Naruto and Saitama are in the same speed league, so closing the gap between them won't be difficult at all. Then once I'm close, and I can use my precognition to dodge all of your physical blows. Saitama was nearly helpless when Garou's precog allowed him to do the same:

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After that, all I need to do is tag you once with the Magnet Rasengan and you're movements will be sealed, as you become completely immobilized. Then I impale you with a TSB rod through your heart and GG

Scenario 2-

If by some elaborate reason that doesn't work, I can summon thousands of Shadow clones to surround you for an all out omni-directional attack. Then I'll launch a series of Bijuudama Rasenshruiken at you. These rasenshuriken have the cellular wind blades surrounding them, and use a TSB for it's base, meaning if they tag you once you'll be destroyed on a microscopic level.

All the while I'll won't run out of stamina, as I can leave a clone behind to gather Nature energy I see see fit. Naruto did this when he fought Pain and Sasuke.

I have a scenario 3, but I'm saving that for your response.

Good luck! And may the best man win


Madara Uchiha CAV/Respect Thread


Madara Uchiha:

Savior of this World
Savior of this World


Madara Uchiha was the infamous leader of the Uchiha clan, legendary co-founder of the Hidden Leaf Village, and one of the most powerful beings of time, as well as one of the top 5 strongest characters in the Narutoverse.

Born in the era of Warring States, Madara grew up in a land of no peace, constantly fighting and clashing with the rival Senju clan. Every once in a while, he would meet up with his friend and rival at the time, Hashirama Senju. They had many similarities, and soon developed a close relationship as friends. Together they dreamed of a world where there would be no more battle- but only peace, serenity, and freedom. But alas, they discovered their true identities, as they were hiding it before ( to meet without trouble) and eventually were forced to turn against each other. Even after more than a decade of constant battle, Madara could never once defeat Hashirama, despite awakening the Mangekyo Sharingan. And Hashirama could never build the resolve to kill his friend. Eventually, Madara conceded his defeat and agreed to Hashirama's pleas to cease the fighting once and for all, ending the years and bloody history of the Uchiha's and Senju.

Together they founded the Hidden Leaf Village, so that no more children would have to die in battle, and to bring together the two clans as well as affiliated tribes. But Madara and Hashirama disagreed on the future of the village, and they had different ideologies of peace. Hashirama desired to cooperate with other nations and share peace and wealth, but Madara insisted that he controlled the world by himself, so that the peace was guaranteed and never lost. Hashirama was then elected Hokage, arousing concern and jealousy from Madara, and decided that the Senju's dominance threatened the future of the Uchiha. After reading the Uchiha Stone Tablet, Madara decided Konoha was a failed attempt at peace, and tried to convince his people and colleagues the same. But no one would listen to him, so he abandoned his village and defected. He then sought out the Nine Tailed Demon Fox and forced it under his control, and with his newly found power he challenged Hashirama. They fought to exhaustion, and Hashirama won yet again, despite Madara giving everything he had.

Hashirama killed Madara, and news of Madara's death spread like a wildfire. However Madara had a failsafe, and scheduled for Izanagi to activate after his death and rewrite reality, bringing him back to life. Then Madara transplanted Hashirama's flesh into himself, and used it activate The Rinnegan. He than began to mastermind his lifelong goal, The Eye of the Moon plan. Over the years, Madara orchestrated key events and conducted many happenings in the Naruto world. In particular, he knew his life was waning and transplanted both his Rinnegan into Nagato without the boy's knowing, in hopes he'd used the outer path to bring him back to life. He then found Obito at the end of the Third Shinobi World War, and manipulated him into carrying out many of his plans. Eventually, on his true deathbed, Madara entrusted him with his name, to complete actions in accordance to his will.

Powers and Abilities:

Madara is a God-tier in the Nardoverse, and one of the most powerful shinobi in history, as well as arguably the strongest Uchiha who ever lived. Madara was strong enough to defeat all 5 Kage at once, and later the Tailed Beast with ease. He has a vast amount of special and unique powers and abilities, ranging from country busting meteors to reality warping illusions.

Madara has so many feats that I didn't think it'd be fair to restrict them to just after his Juubi transformation, so I will be including all of them in this opener (I will be debating his Juubi version, however).

Madara is capable of-

  • Superhuman strength

  • Superhuman speed/reflexes

  • Superhuman agility and heightened senses

  • Superhuman durability

  • Precognition via Sharingan (can foresee his oppnents next attack with the slightest muscle tension in their body)

  • Technique mimicry via sharingan (can memorize and copy attacks and powers after seeing them once)

  • Illusion creation (genjutsu)

  • Telepathy

  • Attack reflection

  • Fire manipulation

  • Gravity manipulation

  • Soul manipulation

  • Lightning Manipulation

  • Energy Manipulation

  • Air manipulation

  • Wood manipulation

  • Poison manipulation

  • Low level Reality Warping via Izanagi

  • Summoning

  • Flight/levitation

  • Chakra absorption

  • Can create invisible clones

  • Regeneration (Low-Godly)

That's just scratching the surface

Chakra and Physical Prowess:

Madara was born with extremely powerful chakra, which has been described as foul and evil. Chakra is the moldable energy found present in every living being, and allows the user to gain powers and perform special techniques known as jutsu. There are 3 categories of jutsu. Ninjutsu (powers), Taijutsu (hand to hand combat), and Genjutsu (illusions and sensory manipulation). Madara was quite versed in all three of them.


Madara was one of the few Shinobi in history capable of utilizing all 5 basic Nature Transformations (Fire, water, earth, wind and lightning), as well as Yin-Yang release. Because of this, he has demonstrated massive, powerful, and destructive ninjutsu's.

Fire Release (Katon)-

Being a member of the Uchiha Clan, Madara had a natural affinity for Fire Release. He was capable or using large-scale, fire based attacks that caused widespread devastation, such as the Great Fire Annihilation

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Fire Release: Majestic Destroyer Flame

He can spew dragon shaped fireballs to bombard his opponents:

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Or cover a large area with burning ash to act as a smokescreen:

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Wood Release (Mokuton)-

Wood Release is an advanced nature transformation, a kekkei genkai that mixes water based and earth based chakra to make wooden constructs. Madara gained the ability to use it after transplanting Hashirama's DNA into himself, and it was later strengthened after he absorbed Hashirama's remaining chakra.

Wood Clone Jutsu: Users can create clones made of wood. These clones are versatile and are more durable than regular clones and can merge with trees or plants. They can also act as substitutions or body replacements-

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Wood Dragon Technique: The user creates a massive wooden dragon that is flexible and capable of restraining the targets, drain their chakra, or use it for an attack-

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Wood Release- Advent of a World of Flowering Trees: Madara can create a massive, dense forests that spans a large area (almost the size of a real forest) of thick flowering trees. The pollen produced by the flowers are then released to the atmosphere, and when inhaled, renders the target unconscious and motionless-

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Tengai Shinsei: After weaving three hand seals between himself and Susanoo, Madara calls down a gargantuan meteorite from space, that causes catastrophic damage and is equally as large. If the first one fails to destroy it's target, he can draw another to ensure annihilation-

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Sage Art (Yin Release): Madara is capable of using sage techniques (senjutsu) and Yin release, in order to fire a blast of lightning at his opponents-

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Sage Art: Storm Release Light Fang - A technique that combines water and lightning release to make storm release, then infuses it with sages chakra to generate a thin beam of pure energy that was sharp enough to cut through a TSB rod-

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Sharingan (Copy Wheel Eye)-

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The sharingan is the dojutsu kekkei genkai native to the Uchiha Clan. Madara awakened his as a child, and is extremely proficient and has excellent mastery over the eye.

Basically, the Sharingan comes with two standard abilities- "Eye of Insight", and "Eye of Hypnotism". The eye of insight allows the wielder to see another human's chakra flow, and gives them the clarity of perception. They can recognize when other's are under a genjutsu due to the irregularity in chakra flow, and differentiate people based on chakra and aura alone.

The Eye of Insight also allows chakra to perceive incredibly fast and minute things perfectly, such as reading lips or mimicking pencil movements. As the sharingan evolves the user can perform larger feats like mimicking entire body movements, techniques, and combos as well as perform them with near-perfect accuracy, and copy any ability they see (so long as they can repeat the ability).

The Eye of Hypnotism is the basic term for casting sharingan genjutsu, to either intimidate opponents, hypnotize them, or cast illusions. The genjutsu themselves vary widely on the user, but the strongest techniques in this regard are Izanagi and Izanami.

Izanagi- The Izanagi is a genjutsu that is cast on the user instead of other people. Once it is activated, the caster "removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within their personal space". This allows them to warp/manipulate reality to a certain degree, and control their own existence. It is most commonly used to rewrite their users own deaths.

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For more information on the Sharingan, click here.

Mangekyo Sharingan -

Eternal Mangekyo
Eternal Mangekyo

The Mangekyo Sharingan is an evolved version of the basic sharingan that very few people possess. It gives the user access to several new even more powerful techniques. There are multiple variations of the Mangekyo, as each users had a different design in their eye as well as a unique ability for each eye. It is unknown what the specific abilites of each Madara's eyes were, but he could use Susanoo


Madara's Complete-Body Susanoo (perfect)
Madara's Complete-Body Susanoo (perfect)

The Susanoo is a giant, energy construct projected by the user that shrouds their bodies and fights on their behalf (similar to an avatar). It is equipped with weapons, and is capable of performing all the justsu's of it's caster, but on a larger scale.

Yasaka Magatama - Madara can create large Magatama from his hands while using Susanoo. These magatama act as sharp projectiles (similar to shuriken). Madara can control their trajectory with a chakra thread:

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The Rinnegan is the final and most powerful of the Three Great Dojutsu (Sharingan, Byakugan, Rinnegan). It is considered to be the strongest and is rightfully so. It blesses the users with a variety of powers in a Godly caliber.

The most prominent being the Six Paths Sage Techniques.

Deva Path:

It allows the user to manipulate attractive and repulsive forces, as well as manipulate the pull of gravity. It works on both objects and people.

Almighty Push (Shinra Tensei)- A powerful repelling force of gravity that can blast all matter away from the user

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Universal Pull (Bansho Tenin) - Allows the user to manipulate the attractive force and pull things closer to them

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Catastrophic Planetary Devastation (Chibaku Tensei) - Allows the user to manifest a small black sphere with a powerful gravitational pull. The sphere is then released into the air and surrounding matter is drawn to the core and compacted into a levitating meteorite

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Pains Chibaku Tensei destroys several mountains worth of land. As you can see by the deep hole in the ground, it is an large island lvl feat
Pains Chibaku Tensei destroys several mountains worth of land. As you can see by the deep hole in the ground, it is an large island lvl feat

Madara can spam Chibaku tensei's and drop them like meteors. Casual country busting feat (they dwarf mountains)

Asura Path:

Grants the user body modifications in the form of weaponized limbs and cybernetic parts

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Human Path:

Allows the user to read the mind of any target they lay their hands upon, it also allows them to rip the targets soul out of their bodies

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Animal Path:

Allows the user to summon a wide variety of animal summonings

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Preta Path:

Users can absorb any ninjutsu technique, as well as absorb other's chakra (energy)

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Naraka Path:

Allows the user to summon the King of Hell, and use it to interrogate users or restore damaged bodies.

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Outer Path (7th path)

Allows the user to manifest black receivers and pour their chakra through them, either paralyzing or manipulating the bodies of those who are pierced. It also allows them to summon the Gedo Statue, and use the Samsara of Heavenly Life technique to bring dead people back to life.

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Six Paths Sage Jutsu:

Six Paths Senjutsu is a heightened form/ability/mode for those who acquire the sages chakra. This can be done by becoming the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki or gaining Hagoromo or Hamura's power. Madara becomes the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki and gains Six Paths/Jinchuuriki mode, which comes with yet another set of new powers (this has become repetetive lol).

Ying-Yang Release (Onmyoton)-

Yin-Yang release is a combination of Yin Release (spiritual energy) and Yang release (physical energy). Users of Yin Yang release have access of every known ninjutsu in creation, and can nullify the effects of any and all known ninjutsu used against them, rendering it useless.

Truth-Seeking Ball (Goudama)-

Truth seeking balls/orbs are malleable spheres of black chakra composed of all 5 nature transformations and Yin-Yang release. They can be molded and shaped in different ways for a variety of purposes. Any power that comes in contact with the orbs will be negated, and the TSB have the ability to disintegrate all matter at a molecular level, completely destroying what they touch and nullifying regeneration of the Edo (similar to Dust Release and All-Killing Ash Bones).

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Limbo: Border Jail (Rinbo Hengoku)-

Madara creates invisible clones that exist in a dimension known as Limbo. The clones operate independently of the user and are impossible to detect or percieve.

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Nuff said

God: Nativity of a World of Trees, Mugen Tsukonyomi and Rinne-Sharingan will not be used in this battle

Now that we've gotten his powers and abilities out of the way, it's time to move onto part 2, his feats.

Feats (respect Madara Uchiha)


A single casual kick sends dozens of shinobi flying:

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Overwhelms the 4th Shinobi alliance with a fire technique that takes dozens of water users to repel:

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Slices and dices through multiple fodder ninja

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Tengei Shinsei recap:

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Susanoo clones and wood style gg:

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The infamous mountain splitting feat:

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Proceeds to outdo that feat and decapitates a chain of mountains:

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Repels Bijuu Naruto with gust of wind from his fan:

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Uses Wood Release to restrain 8 tails and 9 tails who both have immense strength:

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Batters the Tailed Beast with his Limbo Clones:

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Chibaku Tensei vs Frost Country

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Madara could've busted the entire country. The debris from the meteor fragments were bigger than entire mountain ranges and you can see the curvature of the earth.


Madara speedblitzes a group of shinobi:

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Blitzes the crap out of Naruto, Sai, and Hashirama, and then dodged Sasuke's attacks:

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Keeps up with Tobirama's teleportation and batters him:

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Faster than Kamui and Flying Thunder God:

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Reacted and kept up with 8 gates guy (albeit barely)

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His Susanoo tanks a giant rasengan without a scratch

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Madara is unfazed by the combined attacks from the Kage's

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Perfect Susanoo tanked a Bijuu bomb and Madara shrugged of Amaterasu

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Takes punishment from the Tailed Beast while immobilized:

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Survived a combined attack from all tailed beast

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Tanks Afternoon Tiger and Evening Elelphant from 8th gates guy:

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Tanks Night Guy which bends space

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Tanked naruto's Magma Rasenshuriken and survived being cut in half by Sasuke

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At this point it honestly just feels like overkill, but I nerfed Madara a lot in the OP and I made sure you knew what you were getting into shirso, So for the voters, lol don't judge me.

I'm gonna straight up state the obvious:

  • My offense is greater than your defense
  • My defense is greater than your offense
  • I have more DC/AP than you, and several attacks that bypass your durability that you can't account for
  • I am nigh-immortal so you have no way to put me down
  • You have no response to Chibaku Tensei spam or my poison flowering trees
  • If it wasn't for intangibility all the admirals would probabaly get one-shotted

That is all for now... I was going to put an in-depth strategy to how I was going to beat you but I'll save that for when I see your opener.

With that being said, good luck! And thank you all for taking your time to read this incredibly long CAV/respect thread for Madara

- Vulcan out

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