Mu Siyun Respect Thread (Iron Ladies) - Unfinished, pls ignore

Overview

Almost every medium of entertainment has dividers that their content falls under: mainstream and underground.

In the realm of online debating and fictional character battles, the types of series that a user has to choose from are split into these two categories most of the time.

As with other forms of entertainment such as movies, TV shows, music, and books, the "mainstream" content are usually overexposed, controversial, and most importantly, oversaturated. When discussing comics, the popular giants who dominate their field immediately come to mind.

Specifically for Asian comics, people have seen enough of the HST: manga like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece (and the new generation successors that vie to fill their shoes such as MHA and Seven Deadly Sins) have long since enjoyed perennial popularity, and continue to constitute most of the matches made on these forums.

For me, I feel that debating underused characters acts as a relief from the mainstream toxicity. Obscure comics have a certain allure to them. Introducing a new series to the Vine gives me a certain joy, since it's like showing people hidden treasure (especially if the feats are good.) Moreso a series from a relatively untouched medium, manhua, which Iron Ladies is a part of.

This is a respect thread for Mu Siyun, the main protagonist of the chinese sci-fi harem manhua, who rose to impressive heights of power in a relatively short amount of time. I hope, that as a result of this, I will be able to entice more people to experience something new.

Respect Fleet Admiral Mu Siyun, The Heaven Defying Dragon King

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Bio

Mu Siyun was an unemployed university graduate, wasting away towards the end of the 22nd century. However, he was the smartest graduate to major in Political History. After accidentally sending an application to Beiyang Fleet, he was accepted and somehow, immediately became the new Fleet Admiral. Using his vast knowledge on politics and history, Mu seeks to expose and crush the corruption that has overtaken humanity and set order in the universe with an iron fist. All with the help of his trusty space harem, numbering over three thousand women.

Powers and Abilities

Mu fights in a very unusual way that I'll go into detail explaining later. In a nutshell, he controls multiple "Soul Soldiers" which are physically separate entities that he controls to fight for him at will. They are all individual and sentient beings, but are also all apart of him. The abilities he's shown across all of his bodies are as follows:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman durability, endurance and stamina
  • Sound Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation
  • Technopathy
  • Construct Creation
  • Energy Manipulation

Which are the most pressing I can think of.

Everything You Need to Know

In Iron Ladies, humanity had expended all resources during the beginning of the 21st century, and multiple nations began to build interstellar fleets in order to find new planets across the universe for resources. By the end of the 22nd century, humans had conquered over 10 million planets.

Iron Ladies #1
Iron Ladies #1

Daxia Alliance is the strongest military alliance, comprised of countless fleets including the three most powerful fleets: Beiyang, Kunlun, and Three-Legged Crow.

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Iron Ladies #5

The main fighting force for a fleet are called Angels. This is a good description of them.

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That is an explanation of what Angels are and the classes they are divided into, but here is a description of how they are made and their abilities.

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Mu isn't an Angel so the main takeaway here is what Holy Blood does. It perfectly combines the flesh of the recipient with carbon steel and allows them to reproduce it themselves to create constructs and their battle forms.

Mu gained his abilities after being dumped in a pool of Holy Blood. There while submerged he encountered a member of the Holy Weaver race, who tried to take over his body. However Mu's soul resistance allowed him not to get possessed, and the Dragon Empress gave herself to him instead. This made Mu a Soul Tier. Dragon Queen (one of the victims of the Reaver race Empress) also later became his first Soul Soldier.

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If you have been reading my scans thus far, you should be familiar with the Holy Weaver race as well as the tiers of the Angels. Soul Tier is the strongest tier. Here is Mu's explanation to Ding Yuan and Zhen Yuan about his Soul Soldiers, which he uses as a result of his tier.

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Now Mu has multiple Soul Soldiers. I'll post all the relevant ones.

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  • Dragon Queen
  • Copper Mouth
  • (Battle Form) Shura Demon of Melody
  • (Battle Puppet) Beiyang's Main Canons

Of course, Mu can fight with his real body too. He has a couple forms that he can take on.

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So I'll format this respect thread by posting feats for each of his forms, soldiers or battle puppets. Or at least the ones that have shown feats.

Let's start with the show stopper:

Heaven Defying Dragon Queen

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Dragon Queen was the first Soul Body Mu used. She debuted on the Battle of Insect Queen Planet. These scans will show Mu as a male, but he later confirms that he was using Dragon Queen during that battle.

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Iron Ladies #36

I won't include the feats of DQ Mu slicing through the Insect Planet's fodder. The first notable feat completed was when he was swallowed by an Insect and use "Soul Invasion", an inherent ability for Soul Tiers seemingly, in order to take over the insect and metallify it (transmute something to metal).

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So a cool feat for possession/transmutation.

The next feat is when he shattered General Insect's armor with a single construct he made. This is very impressive because the Insect's armor was stated to be more durable than Metal Planet's Metal.

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Context:

Metal Planet's metal was referenced many times throughout the series; i's basically used as a threshold for weapons. This metal is vastly more durable than steel, as weapons made out of this material is capable of piercing Earth Tier Angel battle forms.

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Then Mu released a sonic attack. He resonated at a frequency that was specifically designed to shatter the offspring of Insect Queen, which he was capable of doing so because he had read the biological composition of the insects while he was swallowed by the one he metalified.

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Iron Ladies #22

Mu releasing another sound wave that he uses to hack the technology and computer's of Beiyang's Fleet transporter system. (the people in control had locked out the Angel's who were retreating, so Mu forcibly hacked the systems).

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Uses Sonar to locate Ding Yuan.

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Here Mu absorbs Ding's Holy Blood into his body and converts it into an energy blast.

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Mu himself states that he raised the combustion rate of the Holy Blood until it's explosion would be 50,000x stronger than the nuke in Hiroshima. He then compressed the explosion into a laser ray that was a few milimeters thin and fired it into the planet's core, killing Insect Queen.

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Hiroshima's yield was 15 kilotons. 50k times that would be 750,000 kilotons (or 750 megatons) which is about large island level or greater in terms of sheer destructive capacity. I also used the nukemap and my personal favorite boom table to see the damage real world equivalents of the damage.

In between 9.1-9.2 Earthquake
In between 9.1-9.2 Earthquake
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Reads the mind of Insect Queen's Yuan.

Iron Ladies #26
Iron Ladies #26

2 Comments

Persuasive Techniques to use in Debates

Intro

Have you ever wondered how easy it would be to win any debate or dispute if you could get your message across perfectly? Or how much more powerful you would be if you could change anyone's mind? Well, if you didn't, you probably wouldn't be here right now.

The purpose of this article is to compile different strategies and techniques to increase your persuasion factor in debates, in order make your arguments more compelling and cogent. Many expert debaters have already mastered most [if not all] the skills presented in this feature, but if you're still relatively new on the Vine, or just want to know the secret to kicking anyone's ass in a debate, then read on!

Contents

This article will include the following sections-

  1. Colloquialism
  2. Vocabulary
  3. Presentation/Delivery
  4. Enthusiasm & Manners
  5. Summary

There will also be sub-categories, and a few tips here and there.

1. Colloquialism

We all know changing someone's mind isn't the easiest thing to do. Successfully articulating a message to influence someone's thoughts and opinions requires true artistry, eloquence, and insight. And achieving so is most effectively accomplished through communication that is imbued with familiarity in speech, AKA, colloquialism.

Not to be confused with slang, colloquialism is the use of informal speech in dialogue that, when performed correctly in debates, can convey warmth, friendless, and build emotional appeal with your audience.

For instance, which argument makes the speaker sound more expressive and approachable?

1. "So your secret strategy was to blitz my character? Well, even if you do, you have no way to hurt me at all; whereas my attacks carry enough DC to one-shot you, and possess greater AOE than you can dodge or avoid."

2. "So the cat's out of the bag huh? It seems your secret strategy was to blitz my character. Well, I'm here to tell you that, even if you blitz me, you have no real way to hurt me at all; whereas my attacks carry enough DC to one-shot you, and possess greater AOE than you can possibly hope to dodge or avoid."

The second one right? That is a typical example of how to intertwine colloquial phrases (namely aphorisms, idioms and loaded words) into your text in order to increase the persuasion of that argument.

However, overuse of colloquialism can interfere with the objectivity of your arguments, and getting too familiar takes away from the impact of your statements. So tread carefully.

Examples of phrases:

-"All that glitters is not gold"- A great statement to make when debunking a feat that's pivotal to your opponents argument. It means things that are attractive when presented only appear that way, and when you get to the meat of things, usually aren't as impressive as they're made out to be.

-"Spill the beans"- A phrase that can be used when revealing your Ace in the Hole during a debate. Can also be used when cornering your opponent and asking them a question, since the definition is revealing undisclosed information.

-"Take it with a grain of salt"- When having a discussion with someone, this can be used to debunk statements that aren't likely to be true, due to the possibility that they're exaggerations. It means to not take things literally.

-"Bite the bullet"- This means to take a risk, so it can be used to describe anytime a character pulls off a daunting feat while under physical odds (whether it be injury, fatigue, or pain) that could lead to backlash.

Now those are just a couple common ones in American English, but colloquial terms drastically differ from region to region. But now you understand that they're just sayings unique to an area that display culture and amiability.

I warn again that the abuse of them, or use of overly obscure ones, can tend to undermine the gravity of your more steely, colder arguments and rebuttals. But when implemented strategically, and in light doses, colloquial terms invariably construct cordial bonds during interpersonal speech.

Now, delving deeper in the art of the silver tongue, we have several branches of colloquial statements, each one similar to each other in nature but complete with their own unique purpose and effects.

1.1 Witticism

Witticism is the use of witty remarks and humorous joke that, when executed properly, can disarm the possible hostility of your opponents as well as evoke amusement from your audience. This also let's both spectators and opponents perceive you in a more ebullient light, and raise the spirits of the debating atmosphere you're in.

Long story short, these are colloquial informalities that boost the appeal of your arguments which aids your persuasion factor.

Now, the type of witticism you use depends entirely on you and the situation, so I won't bombard examples. But in order for your jokes to succeed, they must be-

a) well-timed

b) well-conducted

c) in good taste

d) relevant to the topic

Meeting all of these requirements will increase the likelihood of your wit to be well received. Do NOT do the following-

  • Make inappropriate jokes. You know what this means; nothing NSFW or dirty or violent. Even a basic "that's what she said" has no place whatsoever in an organized debate. It just makes you look playful and immature which are two things that kill credibility.
  • Don't make any jokes personal. You shouldn't be discussing your opponents at all in debates, but rather their arguments. Doing otherwise can lead to Ad Hominem, and making jest of your opponent while you're debating them lacks character. The onlyexception is if you've known that person for a long time and know they'd be cool with it. Otherwise, these are out of the question.
  • Don't make more than like, 5-10 jokes in an entire debate. It doesn't really matter how long the debate is; too much wise-cracking isn't very wise.

It may seem like there are a lot of downsides to this technique, but in reality, the aforementioned tips of things to avoid are just common sense. And through practice and experience, witticism profoundly increases rhetoric, especially when used in conjunction with other colloquial phrases.

And speaking of other colloquial phrases, there are 3 more I'd like to quickly run over-

1.2 Adages & Aphorisms

The definitions of adage and aphorism are interchangeable depending on the context, but normally mean old sayings or proverbs. I find the Google's secondary definition of "aphorism" to be the most descriptive of it's purpose:

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Much like witticism and colloquial idioms/phrases, adages and aphorisms are techniques that improve rhetorical speech which can help win you debates. However, all three must be used in moderation. While colloquial terms build amity and witticism demonstrates your affability, the use of adages and aphorisms communicate you as wise. These terms help you appear authoritative, clever, intelligent, and knowledgeable.

Once again, the exact aphorism/adage that you choose to employ during a debate is entirely up to you and subject to your situation. But here is a vast library of the more popular ones to choose from, courtesy of the Poor Richard's Almanack and yourdictionary.com

Aphorism Examples:

  • A barking dog never bites.
  • A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
  • Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
  • Actions speak louder than words.
  • All for one and one for all.
  • All that glitters is not gold.
  • All the world's a stage.
  • All things come to he who waits.
  • All we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.
  • A penny saved is a penny earned.
  • Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes.
  • Don't foul your own nest.
  • Don't give up the ship.
  • Don't hide your light under a bushel.
  • Don't judge a book by its cover.
  • Doubt is the beginning, not the end, of wisdom.
  • Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.
  • Easier said than done.
  • East or West, home is best.
  • Easy come, easy go.
  • Eat to live, don't live to eat.
  • Forgive and forget.
  • Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
  • From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step.
  • Gather ye rosebuds while ye may.
  • Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration.
  • Give a man a fish and he eats for one night. Teach him how and he eats for life.
  • Give him an inch and he'll take a mile.
  • Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself.
  • He that is not with me is against me.
  • He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.
  • He who hesitates is lost.
  • Here today, gone tomorrow.
  • History repeats itself.
  • If you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got.
  • If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.
  • If you snooze, you lose.
  • Ignorance is bliss.
  • Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.
  • Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
  • Keep your head above water.
  • Keep your nose to the grindstone.
  • Keep your powder dry.
  • Know which side your bread is buttered on.
  • Knowledge is power.
  • Laugh, and the world laughs with you; weep, and you weep alone.
  • Life is short, art is long.
  • Lightning never strikes twice in the same place.
  • Little strokes fell great oaks.
  • Live and learn.
  • Nothing succeeds like success.
  • Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
  • Oil and water don't mix.
  • Old habits die hard.
  • Once bitten, twice shy.
  • Opportunity never knocks twice.
  • Opposites attract.
  • Out of sight, out of mind.
  • People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
  • Politics makes strange bedfellows.
  • Possession is nine-tenths of the law.
  • The more things change, the more they stay the same.
  • The pen is mightier than sword.
  • The quality of mercy is not strained.
  • The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
  • The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet.
  • While there's life, there's hope.
  • Who pays the piper calls the tune.
  • Winners never quit and quitters never win.
  • You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
  • You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea.
  • You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
  • You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy.
  • You get what you pay for.
  • You have to take the bitter with the sweet.
  • You have to take the good with the bad.
  • You made your bed, now lie in it.
  • You need to stop to smell the roses.
  • You need to take a bull by the horns, and a man by his word.
  • You're never too old to learn.

1.3 Other Rhetorical Devices

I'm going to assume that you've been educated on generic rhetorical devices, so I won't spend time describing and discussing each one. Nevertheless, using any of the following falls in line with the colloquial phrases we've been talking about. Basic rhetorical devices include-

  • Metaphors
  • Similes
  • Allusion
  • Analogies
  • Anaphora (repetition)
  • Oxymoron
  • Parallelism

Exploiting these in rhetoric definitely builds your charisma, so there's no reason to hold back in using them while debating. Later in this article, I'll expand on more than just increasing persuasion, but some structures for good arguments in general. Though most of those tips and advice have already been covered by better debaters, like in this thread.

2. Vocabulary

Vocabulary is absolutely crucial to The Art of Persuasion and Debate. In fact, a good vocabulary is absolutely crucial to any type of writing, whether it be persuasive, expository, narrative or descriptive. But in rhetoric, the type of vocabulary we're going to focus on isn't just "big words" per se, but loaded words (also known as loaded language/emotive language/loaded terms).

These are words and terms that are specifically designed to trigger emotional responses in your audience or opponent, and are pivotal to persuasive speech and rhetoric. They can be used positively or negatively, and by negatively I don't mean insulting.

Unlike colloquialism in which you have to use sparingly, loaded words is something you have to use abundantly.

Like, nearly every single sentence you type (whether you're describing your character's abilities or countering an opponents post) needs to possess an amplitude of loaded words.

2.1 Word Choice

I'd like to kick off this word choice section with an example. Which phrase sounds more persuasive to you?

Example:

A. "Superman is very fast. He can move faster than light."

B. "Clark can operate at blistering speeds, evident by showings of him surpassing the speed of light."

Despite the fact that both examples are stating the exact same message, example B should obviously be the more persuasive one; since it uses loaded words to add exaggeration and emphasis to the statement.

Now, don't get it twisted; using exaggerating words isn't the same as actually exaggerating. If you decide to highball feats by overreaching then that's on you.

In addition, loaded words can not only emphasize bland statements to make arguments and descriptions more appealing, but they can also make you look more passionate and invested in your debate. The amount of raw energy you can communicate from utilizing exuberant vocabulary terms is astonishing. To corroborate my point, let's take a peek at a few more instances.

Which statement sounds more persuasive to you?

Example:

A. "Naruto has everything he needs to beat Saitama. While he isn't stronger, he has every other advantage over him."

B. "Naruto is more than equipped with all the necessary tools required to defeat Saitama. He may not surpass him in raw strength, but considering he dwarfs him in all other combat related categories, it doesn't matter anyway."

As you can see, loaded words make ALL the difference in a discussion. But please please PLEASE be careful not to make excessive exaggerations when employing this technique, unless you can support your notions with concrete evidence.

The main difference in this set of examples aren't just the words used to describe Naruto, but the implant of words used to reduce Saitama. In example B, the speaker preceded Saitama's name with "someone like" which has a negative connotation in the context it's being used, since the speaker is arguing in favor of Naruto. That only adds to the impact of the conviction of Naruto's [supposed] superiority over him in this instance.

The best part about loaded words is that they can be used in all areas of a debate, thread and CaV alike. It can be used during all of the following-

- Exposition. As the name implies, this is the beginning of the debate, where both debaters tend to express their initial opinions of the match before proceeding to explain their stance by showing evidence. In CaVs and tourney's however, the exposition would be your opener, where you introduce your character and explain their feats before proceeding to visualize how the battle will go down and highlight your advantages.

In both instances, heavy doses of descriptive/loaded words will greatly contribute to stimulating the intended response from your audience and opponent.

- Escalation. The second stage of the debate, this is where you get deeply rooted in the conversation and start to counter each other's post. It is ideal to use fewer loaded words in the escalation part of the debate as opposed to the exposition and the conclusion, due to the fact this is where you want to appear more logical, tactical, cogent and convincing. Exaggeration here makes your judgement seem clouded, and that's one of the major things you want to avoid.

- Endgame. This refers to the final stretch of the debate before the conclusion, though it includes the conclusion itself. Since this mostly refers to your last post or last 2 posts in a CaV/thread debate, it's wise to use an even mix of both loaded words and logical thinking in this section.

And these are my three E's ;)

Once you learn to incorporate advanced vocabulary and loaded words into your discussion, you'll quickly realize how effectively people will listen.

3. Presentation/Delivery

In this current day and age, presentation itself can be a deciding factor in persuasive debates. As far as formatting goes, it was already expertly covered in a link shared earlier (re-posting for convenience)

Debating Tips.

However persuasive presentation isn't the formatting of your posts, it's the formatting of your arguments. This means the structure of your argument, and goes hand in hand with your delivery.

The three E's I created earlier (Exposition, Escalation, Endgame) are my own personal outline for how I think debates are structured. But there's a lot more to it than that, or a lot more information that fits squarely within those broad categories.

View this short, 1 minute video from Howcast on how to win arguments:

The exact advice given there doesn't factor into persuasion techniques directly (mostly due to the fact that video is in reference to verbal arguments, not online debates) but the structure and each step is 100% true. Persuasive Presentation must include, but is not limited to-

  • A specific arrangement of arguments that involves rhetorical devices. And some devices are repetition/anaphora and parallelism. Repetition is repeating the same key words over again, and parallelism (or parallel structure) is reusing the same grammatical form.
  • Different responses to your opponents rebuttals, especially if they're similar. This makes them seem static, constant and boring, but it makes you appear varied and dynamic. And I don't mean use different arguments to counter your opponent (especially if they're just restating bad rebuttals) but different word choice and grammatical structure.

The use of this format and structure can significantly change the outlook of your debate, since anyone who reads it will be subjected to your literal style of argumentation. Presentation also includes etiquette, but more on that in the Manners & Enthusiasm section.

3.1 Delivery

While Persuasion Presentation is mainly formatting and progressive steps, delivery chiefly focuses on the tone of your debate. Being persuasive during interpersonal communication is championed when a speaker shows respect for the opposition and keeps and open-mind. But there is more to delivery than just that.

[A few more tips include getting your opponent to say "yes" in a debate (tapping into their ego) and using their point against them. This endeavor can be recognized by identifying acute flaws in their logic, and that basically means calling them out on fallacies.]

Though being polite is most commonly looked upon as the mood and tone you're supposed to harness when debating, I'm here to tell you that being aggressive is just as important.

Now obviously too much aggression is a bad thing, and you should know when you're crossing a line. Insults of any kind are NOT ok when debating, though I'm pretty guilty of them as well. But after reaching a certain level of maturity, dealing with trolls without devolving into name-calling contests in actuality isn't as hard as it seems.

  • Language should be kept to a minimum. Healthy aggression doesn't include anything more vile than "damn" and "hell".
  • Aggression itself isn't persuasive, but going attack mode when trying to sell a crucial point helps win you over more opinions.
  • Stubbornness can be useful, but be very careful when using it. Being unrelenting when arguing a debate is just as important as admitting when you're wrong and conceding point. Maintaining an equilibrium of both is God tier debating, honestly.

3.2 Ethos, Logos, Pathos

Ethos, Logos and Pathos are the Three Rhetorical Appeals (also known as Modes of Persuasion). It is nearly [if not absolutely] impossible to complete persuasive writing without the use of at least one of them. Debating, on the other hand, is best done performed with the use of at least two.

Ethos - Ethical Appeal. This is usually an appeal to credibility/credentials. While this is perfectly fine in normal persuasive writing, it is NOT ok to use in debates, since it is in fact an Appeal to Authority, which is a known logical fallacy. Don't use it.

Logos - Logical Appeal. This is convincing the audience of your opinion through the use of logic, facts, and reasoning. This is the core of debate, and what it revolves around. Logical Appeal typically involves numbers and dates, and in online debating, scans and proof. Though that is not always the case. Reasoning can be based on your personal beliefs, but hey, if it's logical, it works.

Pathos - Emotional Appeal. Almost self-explanatory, this is appealing to your audiences moral values and sense of judgement. Most examples of it seem pretty off-hand, but it is extremely compelling when written.

Examples:

Example of Ethos:

"I will end this war in Iraq responsibly, and finish the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan. I will rebuild our military to meet future conflicts. But I will also renew the tough, direct diplomacy that can prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and curb Russian aggression. I will build new partnerships to defeat the threats of the 21st century: terrorism and nuclear proliferation; poverty and genocide; climate change and disease. And I will restore our moral standing, so that America is once again that last, best hope for all who are called to the cause of freedom, who long for lives of peace, and who yearn for a better future."

Democratic Presidential Candidate Acceptance Speech by Barack Obama. August 28th, 2008.

Example of Pathos:

"I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. And some of you have come from areas where your quest -- quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive. Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed."

I Have a Dream by Martin Luther King Jr. August 28th, 1963.

Example of Logos:

"However, although private final demand, output, and employment have indeed been growing for more than a year, the pace of that growth recently appears somewhat less vigorous than we expected. Notably, since stabilizing in mid-2009, real household spending in the United States has grown in the range of 1 to 2 percent at annual rates, a relatively modest pace. Households' caution is understandable. Importantly, the painfully slow recovery in the labor market has restrained growth in labor income, raised uncertainty about job security and prospects, and damped confidence. Also, although consumer credit shows some signs of thawing, responses to our Senior Loan Officer Opinion Survey on Bank Lending Practices suggest that lending standards to households generally remain tight."

The Economic Outlook and Monetary Policy by Ben Bernanke. August 27th, 2010.

Courtesy of pathosethoslogos.com

4. Enthusiasm & Manners

How do you expect to win a debate with no effort or enthusiasm? Lethargic responses are extremely unconvincing, due to the lack of passion and energy being the debate. Manners and Enthusiasm are two traits and factors I've seen in debaters that make their arguments more persuasive based on it alone (like my friend @darthjhawk, s/o to him).

If you don't believe me, take a look at these few examples.

Examples:

A. "World War Hulk has several continental+ to planetary feats."

B. "World War Hulk has several continental+ to planetary feats, and they're all amazing!"

Simple things like italicizing words and using exclamation marks can make the differences in your arguments as clear as night and day; and there are a multitude of other examples.

4.1 Manners

Manners and basic etiquette are just common sense. Never be condescending in tone towards your opponent, and always be polite.

There really isn't much in this section that I can tell you to increase persuasion that you shouldn't already know. I mean, manners are manners.

5. Summary

It isn't necessary to use each and every single one of these tips in a debate, but they're always here for you to reference to. I also want to reiterate that simply being persuasive won't help you win debates, but accurate exploitation of these tools can significantly increase your chances depending on how they're used.

No matter how persuasive you are, you can never win a debate if your argument is simply bad. And you don't have to only accept debates or argue when you know you're going to win (imo that's weak) but always be ready to admit fault and don't argue anything you're not deeply rooted in.

This article will also be updated periodically if I get new ideas or people tell me things to add. I'll reorganize accordingly.

6. Sources

Under construction...

61 Comments

CaV Record

CaV Record

I have a lot of planned CaVs and most of them never go through, so I decided to organize all of my CaVs in one spot so they'd be easily accessible for various purposes. This list will be updated regularly when new ones are added and will contain both finished and ongoing matches

DebatesResults
CaV: Juubi Madara (God_Vulcan) vs 3 Admirals (shirso)Victoy through voting
CaV: Saitama (Sayo786) vs Naruto (God_Vulcan)Victory through voting
CaV: Might Guy (Cosmic_Lantern) vs Saitama (God_Vulcan)Victory through voting
CaV: Hit (Deathhero61) vs Asura (God_Vulcan)Victory through voting
CaV: All Might (God_Vulcan) vs Meruem (streak619)Victory through voting
CaV: Belcross (Gearsecond659) vs Asura (HigherPower)Victory through voting
CaV: Enel (Gearsecond659) vs Krishna (HigherPower)Victory through voting
CaV: Afro Samurai (God_Vulcan) vs Brock Samson (Elijah_C_Washington)Victory through concession
CaV: Jin Mo-Ri (God_Vulcan) vs EOS Toriko (shirso)Victory through concession
CaV: The Seven Deadly Sins (HitTheAssassin) vs Devilman (HigherPower)Victory through concession
CaV: Dark Schneider (God_Vulcan) vs Composite Goku (HitTheAssassin)Victory through concession
CaV: Eight Kings (vsw) vs Neron (HigherPower)Victory through concession
CaV: Rob Lucci (Defiant Will) vs Gang Ryong (HigherPower)Victory through concession
All-Star CaV: Thedailybagel (Hulk) vs HigherPower (Asura)Victory through voting
CaV: Zealot (HigherPower) vs Black Panther (Darthjhawk)Ongoing
2v2 HoF CaV: Modru/Larfleeze vs Darkseid/KronaOngoing
CaV: Omega Red (Veshark) vs X-O Manowar (HigherPower)Ongoing
CaV: Jin Mori and 666 Satan vs Larfleeze and Genis VellOngoing
CaV: Lord Mephisto & Lady Flonne vs Lady Death & Dark SchneiderOngoing
CaV: Alita 2.0 (Mr_Ingenuity) vs Garou (HigherPower)Loss through concession
CaV: Madara Uchiha (sophia89) vs Gremmy Thoumeaux (God_Vulcan)Loss through voting
CaV: Garou (God_Vulcan) vs Piccolo (EmperorThanos)Loss through voting

Before I used to want have dozens of CaV's like great Viners I knew, but I've come to romanticize them so I'll try to make mine a prestigious event and not a casual thing. So I won't be having a lot in the future but each individual one will be important. Quality over quantity.

Cancelled/Unfinished matches:

16 completed matches, 13 wins and 3 losses. Win percentage: 81%.

19 Comments

Escanor Respect Thread (Seven deadly Sins)

Overview

You probably clicked on this thread for one reason—to see Lord Escanor in all his majestic glory. Escanor is just one of those characters who were hyped to be really strong before making an appearance, and upon his appearance, he didn't disappoint. You must put respect on his name; how could you not? Escanor has officially become one of the strongest character in the NnT franchise (as of now) and is one of the most badass, charismatic, and beastly fighters in the series. With his gravity defying presence, the air of a King, you will recognize him by his many titles and respect who he is. He's the pinnacle of the human race, the top of his species, The Seventh Sin, the Roaring Lion of Pride, and the Embodiment of The Sun. He isn't just a God tier, he is THE GOD. Respect the man who stands atop all of the clans.

Praise The Damn Sun

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Bio

Escanor is the final and most powerful member of the Seven Deadly Sins, a group of Seven brutal criminals who are notorious for betraying the Kingdom of Liones, by slaying Great Holy Knight Zaratras (then disbanding 10 years prior to the start of the series). Each of the Sins are felons who had been previously convicted for heinous crimes and had the symbols and seven animals carved in their bodies, attributed with a biblical Sin. Escanor is recognized as the Lion's Sin of Pride, and is renowned for his magical ability Sunshine.

He was born 40 years ago as the Prince of Castellio Kingdom, yet he had a heartless family. His older brother Daymond routinely picked on him, until one day Escanor awakened his powers and broke his arm. His parents disowned him due to this and he was exiled from the Kingdom, shunned everywhere he went and called a monster because his peculiar appearance. He was rescued and set adrift on the sea by a lady named Rosa, and then was found by Merlin and Meliodas- and was shortly inducted into the Sins. After the Sins disbanded he became a bartender near Ravens, and upon the 10 Commandments saga he rejoined and continued with them to Camelot.

Powers and Abilities

Escanor's powerset is a magnificent one, fit for a King. He's well grounded in all areas, with some neat abilities here and there. He's demonstrated-

  • Vast Superhuman Strength
  • Vast Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Durability (as well as endurance and stamina)
  • Fire manipulation
  • Heat manipulation
  • Regeneration
  • Telepathic resistance
  • Soul resistance
  • Transformation
  • Skilled Axe Wielder

At first glance it's not too flashy, but that's exactly what it is- a first glance.

Sunshine

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This is Escanor's innate magic ability. Basically, Sunshine dictates that Escanor's power lvl grows in direct correlation with the rising and setting of the Sun- meaning Escanor is his weakest at midnight and his peak strongest during High Noon. Starting from Sunrise (morning), his strength and power increases proportionally with the time of day, getting stronger and stronger by the second. He gets massive boosts in strength and speed at daytime, and his temperature skyrockets as well. Not only that, his personality also makes a dramatic shift; going from weak, shy, timid, and submissive at night to arrogant, prideful, boasting and Godly during the morning. Merlin speculated that his power was comparable to the actual Sun, and it was revealed during his fight with Galan that his lvl increases 5 points every second.

Here Merlin explains it beautifully (as well as Rhitta):

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And his power constantly grows:

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He uses Sunshine in conjunction with his Divine Axe Rhitta, a special weapon crafted for Escanor alone. With Charge and Fire, the axe stores his immense heat during the day and can release the accumulated heat and power at any given time:

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Transformations

Here I'll show Escanor's different forms. From left to right- Night time Escanor, Dawn Escanor, Early morning Escanor, Late Morning Escanor, and Peak Noon Escanor (the ONE)

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Night time is the weakest version, while peak noon Escanor has been described as an "invincible incarnation of power" by Merlin for a solid minute.

Fire and Heat manip

With Sunshine, Escanor's magic also allows him to control heat and fire based attacks. His body heat alone was able to burn through Vampire King Izraf's "Armor of Darkness", which is stated to be impregnable to even purgatory fire. After that, Escanor's temperatures rapidly rise until he roasts Izraf alive, burning out his throat and turning his body to ash as he crumbled before him:

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He then releases a massive flash of heat that pulverizes Izraf completely and turns a stone castle tower into slushy:

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Keep in mind the melting point for stone is even higher than it is for metal. Just a few square inches of stone to turn into magma requires a temperature ranging from 1500 to 2072 Celsius (or 2750 to 3762 Fahrenheit). For Escanor to liquify dozens of meters of pure stone nigh instantly requires 10s of thousands of degrees higher than that.

Techniques

Pride Flare - Escanor first creates a Cruel Sun, which is a miniature sun, or an orb of pure heat energy and fires it at his opponent. He detonates it with pride flare, and it was powerful enough to flash vaporize a lake against Estarossa (it's heat was also melting armor like butter from a few feet away)

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Completely vapes:

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Cruel Sun - Like I said earlier, Cruel Sun is a ball of flaming heat energy that Escanor launches as a projectile towards his opponents. Like all of his other moves, it's strength depends on the time of day. Closer to noon when he fought Estarossa, Cruel Sun BFR'd him several kilometers and created a mountain sized explosion

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Durability

This is probably a weird section to start with, but I want to highlight this because it's one of the greatest aspects about him. Escanor is a tank, he rarely outspeeds his opponents or makes use of speed in battle, but he can soak damage like a sponge. And luckily for him, Escanor has durability feats in all 3 categories- piercing durability, energy durability, and physical/blunt force durability.

Piercing-

For piercing durability, one of his earliest showings was no selling a multi-hill lvl attack from Galan without moving an inch or even feeling pain:

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The two large hills that were clipped in the middle panel of the 4th scan were shown to have been completely severed:

Should be at least mountain lvl, considering it cut them with the shockwave
Should be at least mountain lvl, considering it cut them with the shockwave

Escanor could also tank his own physical attacks when they were repelled at more than double the power from Estarossa, and he did this twice. Keep in mind Escanor should be mountain lvl in cutting attacks in his own right, which I'll show momentarily:

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And he does it again later in the day:

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Escanor also tanked a slash from commandments era Assault Mode Meliodas:

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Peak noon Escanor tanked commandments era Meliodas' strongest attack virtually unharmed, which constituted of 1,000 slashes (?). He was practically unscathed, and said the attack was nothing but an itch:

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Context:

From here on out, you'll see me provide context about for many of Escanor's feats, in order for them to be fully realized on how impressive they are. Some of them need to be scaled to power lvl, like this one. Sealed Meliodas with a power lvl of 3,370 was strong enough to casually cleave a large hills/small mountain in half with air nothing but air pressure from a twig:

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Meliodas with a power lvl of 32k was slicing and dicing through multiple commandments like Dolor (most of whom are around mountain lvl) and the version that fought Escanor was stomping him previously when his power lvl was 114,000. So the feat of him tanking Assault Meli's Divine Slashes should be island lvl on the low end.

Blunt Force/Physical-

Tanks a punch from Diane:

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Escanor tanked multiple punches from Estarossa:

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The punch was strong enough to break a stone pillar, and then he tanked a kick that sent him flying through the air and bounced a couple meters back:

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He tanked several strikes from 10 commandments era Meliodas (assault mode):

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He then tanked a vicious punch to the gut:

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He later tanked a punch so powerful it sent him ricocheting numerous times across the walls of Merlin's Perfect Cube:

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Context-

Sealed Meliodas punched Ban hard enough to split Byzel Rock, which was the size of a hill:

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Even after Ban robbed a majority of his strength with physical hunt, Meli was capable of overpowering him in a trade of blows:

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So he could dish out multi-hill busting physical blows when his power lvl was dozens of times smaller. Everything should be consistenly adding up to over mountain lvl now.

Energy Durability

This part will have to be slightly explained. But first, the feat. Escanor tanks the explosion of his own Cruel Sun, after it was relfected by Meliodas' Full Counter:

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In case you've forgotten, Meliodas' Full Counter has the ability to reflect attacks at more than double the original power. So basically it's not only reversed, but amplified in the process.

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It's officially more than double the power, not far greater power. Think of Estarossa's own ability.

Now, with that in mind, remember the first time Escanor used Cruel Sun? It created a mountain+ sized explosion, and that was still less than a half hour before noon:

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Thus, Escanor's power lvl wasn't anywhere near 114k as it was when he fired Cruel Sun the second time. So it should be at the least mountain+, and that was before it was reflected by Meli's FC, where the potency is more than double. This durability feat sits comfortable at mountain range (multi mountain+) to island lvl.

Strength

Escanor is physically the mightiest of all the Sins, and has every feat supporting so. For lifting, he's capable of casually weilding Divine Axe Rhitta, even though both Meliodas and Galan have called it heavy on different occasions:

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Context:

Galan has a strength of 24,000, and Meliodas when his power was sealed destroyed Bustee Dungeon arm-wrestling with Ban.

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Said Dungeon can withstand 10 town busting attacks:

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His next feat, he casually bisects Galan in a single swing, in one of the most badass moments of the entire manga:

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STRAIGHT SAVAGE BITCH
STRAIGHT SAVAGE BITCH
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Context:

Galan could no-sell cutting attacks from Meliodas. Since Meliodas could casually split baby mountains in half with a twig when his power lvl was 3k, I see no reason why a bloodlusted Meliodas shouldn't be solidly mountain lvl with Lostvayne (lostvayne >>>> random stick) :

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This isn't quantifiable or anything, but a slighly serious Escanor was able to scare the ever-loving shit out of Critical Over Galan (whith his aura alone), who's power lvl at the time was a cool 40,000. This implies he was far higher:

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The result caused Galan to be afflicted by his own commandment, turning into stone:

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Some time after this, during his battle with Estarossa, Escanor punched him hard enough to shake him up and bring him down to his knees. Esta sees an image of the Almighty Sun first:

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Bowels in Diane's gut:

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^ He's a gentleman too

Draws blood from Assualt Mode Meliodas with his blows

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Oneshots AM commandments era Meliodas at noon. Does this with a casual flick of the wrist, with an attack called "Divine Sword Escanor"

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Considering Meliodas no selling attacks from Escanor before (who was way over 114k), this llogically shouldn't dip below island lvl in potency. A weaker version of Meliodas was getting gangbanged by the 10 commandments, soaking up damage after damage, attack after attack- yet he still pulled through. And looking back on certain things (specifically Gloxinia's Basquias laser that busted actual mountains, NOT hills) they've had a steady increase in power that safely lands them anywhere from the mountain+ to island lvl range.

Speed

Earlier I mentioned Escanor being a tank, and I want to remind you that this is true. He generally likes to stall his opponents until it's a later time in the day where he strong enough to beat. In actual combat, rarely does he ever blitz or outspeed his adversary. In addition to that, Escanor has no stand-alone speed feat that don't rely on scaling- so heaving context will be provided (and just a tad of speculation).

The first actual speed related feat he completed was being FTE to Estarossa, slashing his chest fast enough that he couldn't percieve it:

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I would say that cutting Galan in half was a speed feat, but Galan was drunk and had his gaurd completely down. So it wouldn't be fair. Also, Estarossa scales higher to other characters (due to his nonsensical power lvl), but he himself doesn't have anything quantifiable. Sad face.

However, current Escanor has an actual reliable scaling to fall back on. Here he crosses blades with Assualt Mode Meliodas, and they go back and forth (several instances of reacting to his swings):

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Then they ensue in fierce swordplay:

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Reacts to Meli throwing his sword:

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Peak noon Esca also oneshotted Commandments Era Meliodas before he could evade or register what's happened. Now let's get down to the nitty gritty and scale our asses off.

Context-

One of my personal favorite speed feats for Meliodas. In precisely 0.2 seconds, he blitzed Dawn Roar from several meters away, attacking all of them before they could react. He took off 0.5 seconds before the impact was initiated, and stopped the attack 0.2 seconds before it was landed:

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Base Meliodas (without any demon powers or amps) at the beginning of the series was a casual lightning timer. Reflecting both natrual cloud-to-ground lightning and it's magical counterparts several times over the course of his different battles with Gilthunder:

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FC's natural lightning from Gil

Casually sidesteps and outmaneuvers Gil who's lightning speed:

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Reacts to Gil hailing from the sky at lightning speed while simultaneously holding off Hendrickson:

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For reference the speed of lightning is triple digit mach (MHS+) and generally ranges from the Mach 250s up to Mach 500 depending on the medium. Arthur is also suggests he's faster than sound (talk about late):

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Has high speed FTE battles with Gil, over and over:

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Full Counters magical lightning from Gil, an attack called "Pursuit of the Lightning Beast" several times in quick succession:

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Reacts to Iron Hammer of the Thunder Emperor, reflecting it in time:

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And there are so much more better speed feats after that, but listing all of Meli's speed feats would be tiresome because he has a large number of them. But now it's been established that at the very least he's lightning+ speeds, so we'll go a step higher. How do we do that you ask? One name:

Galan.

First, it only takes Galan 72 "steps" to hop from Edinburgh to Camelot:

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His entire battle with Meliodas. He literally trolls him:

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It gets even more brutal. This is a one-sided beatdown:

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But here's the show-stopper feat. Merlin attempts to BFR him by teleporting him away, but Galan instantaneously leaps several miles out of her TP radius before her or anyone else in the vicinity could react. And most of the people there, like Arthur and the Slader from Dawn Roar, scale to Meliodas to be lightning speed:

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So we can confirm that Galan can casually fodderize lightning timers,. But why is that important? Because the Revenge Blitz.

After Meliodas' original powers were restored at Istar, he decides to go to the location the commandments are say wassup. Even the chapter is called "Just A Greeting":

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It's comeback time. Set your timers to 10 seconds, cause revenge never tasted so sweet:

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SHIT JUST GOT REAL:

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Phew... didn't mean to get all hype on you guys. But that last feat was too much. He drew then sheathed his sword at FTE, cutting Galan over a dozen times before he could react or even perceive it.

This being the same Galan that could blitz and slaughter lightning+ timer Meliodas. So basically Galan blitzed Meliodas who got stronger than blitzed Galan, so we know SDS characters can blitz people above lightning speed by massive margins. \

But it doesn't stop there. That Meliodas had a power lvl of 32,500:

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Now we get into some pretty screwed scaling. So we know Escanor had a power lvl of 114k at one point, but Assault Mode Meliodas crapped on him. Then Escanor oneshotted the Meliodas who was stomping him previously before.

So this "context" section has become quite much longer than I thought it would be, but you would need to understand the verse's scaling speed if you ever want to debate SDS God tiers in a thread (and reference this respect thread to do so). That should about sum up his physicals

Miscellaneous

This is the section where I list Escanor's notable additional abilities.

Divine Axe Rhitta

Yes, I know, I already talked about Rhitta earlier, but I though I'd go a little bit more in-depth and give it it's own section. This is Escanor's Sacred Treasure, a Holy Armament that he can summon to himself at any time. It's his trusty battle axe that he can use for both offensive and defensive purposed (slashing, blocking). It's main ability is "Charge and Fire":

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See? Kept it short and sweet.

TP/ Mental Resistance

Escanor resists a telepathic assualt from Gowther, showcasing a quite lethal mental attack resistance:

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Context:

Gowther has consistently messed with the memories of people throughout the series, and has actually erased the memories of several characters including his fellow teammates the Sin. As far as offensive battle TP goes, here he rewrites the memories of an entire group of soldiers mid-battle:

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He drops an entire town of people who have a spirit of less than 400. Essentially Spirit = willpower so if the character has no TP resistance or sufficient willpower they can be affected:

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Gowther has so many other good TP feats too, I just don't want to spam them. here is a link to a good Gowther respect thread. though. He has other TP showings like trapping Dreyfus in a nightmare, reading Sladers mind mid-battle, placing Dale in a trance, altering Galan's memories to fool him into believing he finished off the Sins (that's a good one), taking over peoples constructs with Hijack (like Diane's Golems), and communicating telepathically with broadcast. He also erased and altered the memories of Diane and Guila, so overall he's a pretty solid mid-tier telepath.

Soul Suck Resistance

Another hax resistance ability, except this one is cooler and more lethal (though not as common). He is able to no-sell have his soul ripped out from his body from Merasyclla, and that's after she removed his soul and ate it:

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Context-

In her own words, Merascylla happens to be an "expert at manipulating the dying and the dead... along with their souls." She says this right before ripping Meliodas' rather large soul out of his body:

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And here's just a shot of her airbending dozens of souls:

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That about finishes it up.

Misconceptions

Whooooo boy. Man, I'm a huge fan of Escanor, but it's time for some MAJOR debunking. He is so wanked in the forums that it's crazy. But who can blame the wankers? Escanor wanks himself... (arrogance).

Alright. Let's dig in:

1. Escanor does NOT- and I repeat, does NOT have Soul Manipulation - This isn't a common problem, in fact, I've only seen a handful of users actually suggest this in threads. But that notion ends here. He has never displayed offensive soul manipulation or attack others souls, this idea came from him destroying the "spirits of the dead" when Merascylla reanimated them. But I'm gonna tell you guys the same thing i told that knucklehead Kamishi when we clashed on this:

  • It is blatant PIS. If Escanor could truly destroy souls with passive body heat (which has been argued before) all of the Sins would die just by standing next to him. However, I'll just give y'all benefit of the doubt and say he used an attack for it
  • Those aren't souls lol. They're skeletons and corpses that Meryscylla reanimated an amped with Meli's power. Every soul in the SDS verse looks like a small white orb with a tail. You should know this
  • If they were souls, than that would mean Ban and King and the remaining sins all have soul manipulation for destroying them too
  • Souls are physically intangible and ethereal, but those skeletons were stated by Merlin to have been the leftovers from dead, and they were also explicitly stated to have been "bodies"
  • Here are counter scans to back up everything I said. I know there are times in chapter 226 and 227 they are called "spirits of the dead" but they aren't literal souls. They're just the physical remains of people who already died
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Scans 1-2. Statements that prove they're just dead bodies and skeletal remains that were reanimated and amped by Mels dark energy. Scans 2-3. On-panl evidence that shows Ban and the other Sins oneshotting the "spirits of the dead" as well, which by your logic means they have soul manip too. Scans 5-6, statements that describe exactly what they skeletons were

Feat officially debunked

2. Escanor's temperatures - Not something I see being taken out of control, but something I wanted to address. In terms of how well they can be quantified, Esca's best calculable heat feat was vaporizing Lake Paynes and melting the Edinburgh Castle. Both feats max at several thousand degrees. But for some reason, people think Peak Noon Escanor or any other Escanor suddenly makes gigantic jumps in temperature, and at his strongest he's millions of degrees celsius (or fahrenheit). That doesn't make any sense, and while I'd like to believe it myself, it can not be proven with substantial evidence. I've even seen some people argue he's as hot as the Sun. Topkek

3. Night Transformation - Him buffing up in the middle of the night because of the image of Merlin in his mind was pure PIS. End of story. It honestly sounds like something that'd be in Fairy Tail...

4. Escanor is stronger than Meliodas - I've been an Escanor fanboy since Day 1, I always knew it would be true!. This isn't a misconception at all, but something I want to rub into the faces of every Meli fanboy. 1 minute my ass, accept defeat!!

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gg no re

My take on Escanor

DC/AP - Below average human during the night time. At least Large Building lvl+ at Dawn (Melted an entire cobblestone castle effortlessly against Izraf). Mountain lvl consistently in the early to late mornings (Far stronger than Galan, displayed mountain lvl attack destructive capacity against Estarossa). Possibly Multi-Mountain lvl near noon (had a power lvl of 114,000). Island lvl at peak noon (One shotted Assault Mode Meliodas from the commandments era, who was previously no selling his attacks).

Speed - FTE during the night time (managed to dodge attacks from Izraf) Massively Hypersonic+ via scaling (should be dozens of times faster than lightning, comparable to AM Meliodas)

Durability - Below average human during the night time. Mountain lvl at dawn (didn't even budge from Galan's critical over swing, which decapitated hills with it's shockwave). At least Multi-Mountain lvl in the late morning (tanked the explosion of Cruel Sun after it was reflected by Full Counter). Island lvl at high noon ( 1,000 of Assualt Mode Meli's strongest slashes didn't even tickle him.)

And that's all folks. Thanks for reading.

28 Comments

Jin Mo-Ri CaV/Respect thread

Introduction to the Lord of the Heavens-

The Monkey King

Coolest back pose ever
Coolest back pose ever

Bio

Jin Mori is the main protagonist of GOH, and is the most powerful character in the series. At the beginning, he was portrayed as an innocent (yet arrogant) martial artist who loves to fight. Along with his friends, he participated in the God of Highschool martial arts tournament, which was just a cover for a secret organization looking for a special fighter- (they key to unlock a taboo on humans). During his battle with Jae-Kal, he reawakened his memories and his original powers were restored; allowing him to be recognized by his true identity, The Monkey King (Sun-Wukong).

Powers and Abilities

An interesting thing about Jin is that despite being a God, he's a mainly physical fighter with a somewhat limited powerset. He makes up for this by being the most skilled fictional H2H combatant in recent history, and that coupled with his inconceivably powerful stats make him a threat to the likes of even Toriko. He reaches past his shortcomings with versatility and has things up his sleeve that even avant-garde GoH debaters (some of which were tagged) might have forgotten he had. I had to do a complete and thorough re-read of the entire series and picked up a lot of things I may have missed about him.

Moving on, Mori has demonstrated-

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Durability (as well as endurance and stamina)
  • Expert martial artist and h2h combatant
  • Expert re-taekwondo and needle ryu practitioner
  • Limited Weather Manipulation
  • Lightning manipulation
  • Cloning/duplication
  • BFR/sealing
  • Unbothered by extreme temperatures and conditions (can survive in space and fought on the Sun)
  • Statistics amplication via limiter removal
  • Technique mimicry

Skills

I know, this a weird section to start on opener with, but I wanna focus on this more than anything else in the entire debate. Why? Well I know that Toriko is a mainly physical fighter too, and since Jin and Toriko are maily physical combatants, this matchup will likely start off as a hand-to-hand battle more often than not. So I wanna stress this point right now:

Toriko can not beat Jin in H2H.

No one in the entire verse can. The reason being, (like I said earlier) Jin is one of, if not the most skilled martial artist/physical combatant in recent fictional memory. Add that to the fact that his striking power and speed dwarf Toriko's then it becomes apparent that it's not debatable at all. This is going to be an extremely long section, so sit tight. Now let's look at the reason why I place his skill on such a high pedestal:

Mori is a martial artist, and the art he practices is known as Renewal Taekwondo (I'll either call it re-taekwondo or RT for short). It was created by his Grandpa Tae Jin-Jin in modern day South Korea. It's based of Northern ITF Taekwondo, and emphasizes speed and power with straightforward kicks; as opposed to it's predecessor (ITF being obsessed with the flamingo stance). I'll run over all of his main techniques in renewal.

Renewal Taekwondo

3rd Stance Hwechook- This is Mori's signature and trademark technique. 3rd Stance Hwechook is a kick that's executed three times in a row; a consecutive attack that gathers centrifugal force on a focal point and delivers all the weight to his opponents head. Jin first throws a kick to one side of his opponents head, then turns around and kicks the other side, and finally finishes by spinning to back to deliver a kick to the rear of his opponents brain, shaking them in three different ways. The force of being knocked one way and the collision of being knocked the other increases the damage of a single kick by two or three times normal. If the opponent flinches or tries to move back the damage is increased.

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Here are some examples of Jin using it in combat:

(againts Man-Duk)

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pure badass

(Against Han)

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(Against the Prince)

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(Mori Hui against the King)

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Gaurd-Breaker (aka Homi Geolyi or Hoe Hook)

As a name implies, it is a technique where the user slides there leg in between the opponents gaurd and yanks down, breaking the defense and leaving them open for a second attack. It is almost always used in conjunction with Third Stance Hwechook.

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Examples of it being used are mainly with 3rd stance. The stand out examples are with Han, the Prince and the King.

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Northen IF Taekwondo has their own variation used by Sujin (Jin also used it against her a few pages earlier):

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Satan even got the hang of it:

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Hoe Grab and Dragon Catcher- The user feints a reverse kick and instead lock one of their legs around the back of the opponents neck and spins them. Dragon Catcher is a stronger variation that picks up the opponent and drops them into the ground. Hoe grab can be used as a combination with Spinning top kick or a Hwechook.

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Dragon Catcher

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Hoe Grab + Dragon Catcher

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Uses extreme bottom Hwechook and catching dragon against sujin (translations are different but it's the same technique)

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Spinning Top Kick - Also used in conjuction with Guard breaker. With his back turned toward his opponent, jin spins around 180 degrees and delivers a high kick to their face, while simultaneously kicking their leg

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Dragon Sign Hwechook and Jin Hwechook- A strong linear kick that relieves a massive amount of force. There are two versions that are all closely related.

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Jin Hwechook-

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Extreme Bottom Hwechook- The user ducks an upper body attack and slides to the ground, spinning with a back kick to the opponents leg

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Ground Drawer- A kick that rips through the ground while spinnig. The user then slashes upward and disturbs airflow in that area

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Baekdu- A technique where the user flies towards the opponent and attacks with a piercing knee strike. The original ITF version was used to induce an opponents guard and grab the back of their head, unleashing a flurry of knee strikes

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Renewal Scissors- A flying scissor kick aimed at the opponents head

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Axe- The user launches themselves in the air, completing a front-flip before swinging their leg downward for an Axe kick. It can be used in conjunction with the scissor kick

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Jin Mori Original: Ice kick- A technique created by Jin after observing the behavior of wind turbulence during his match with Ilpyo. It is created by absorbing both kicks power and was capable of nullfying Ilpyo's fire chook.

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Rising back kick- An upward kick that extends through the opponents jaw. The user completes it after spinning and shifts their weight, taking advantage of the force

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Reverse sweeping kick- After spinning in a wide arc, the user kicks the opponent in a lopsided fashion. It's similar to the rising back kick, and Hui used it as a counter to the kings reverse gravity, after he attempted the extreme bottom (or lowest round kick) hwechook

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Renewal Arang- An elbow strike that sends a shockwave through an opponent

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scans in reverse

Roundhouse Kick- A roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick lol. Just stronger cuz Jin is doing it :P

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Recoilless kick- A stronger variation of the roundhouse kick that attacks the sky and ground at the same time. First used against Bishop R

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Mori Hui originals- Mori Hui is jin's clone. All things considered, his feats and skills should transfer

Complete gift set-

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Kicking Imoogi-

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There are a crap ton of techniques I missed, but i didn't wanna scan bomb. Just know that's only about half of the actual techniques he's shown on panel for RT

Nabong Needle Ryu (acupuncture)

A type of martial arts that makes use of acupunture skills to attack it's opponent; mainly using fingers like needles to pierce vital pressure points of the body. Jin learned it after studying a textbook and memorizing a complete and detailed dissection of the human body. It was likely created by Na Bong-Chim, and can be used to heal, attack or revive oneself

Acupuncture Skill- By tapping various pressure points he can stop bleeding, heal wounds, and reduce injuries.

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And again with Sujin-

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Blood Sealing Needle- A technique where Mori taps pressure points on his opponents body and seals their blood flow, causing blood clots which result in internal damage in excess. Since the blood accumulates and clogs in that region it likely causes some damage to organs too

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This is a better example-

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Blood Vessel Bongchim- Jin also has the ability to paralyse or temporarily immobilize his opponents by poking certain pressure points. When he used it on 666: Satan he was unable to move, frozen in place while Jin beat him up

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He also used that technique on Sujin

No pain- By hitting a pressure point in the heart, Jin can turn off pain receptors. Without any feeling of pain, he can fight without hindrance and gains a boost in speed and power

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Limiter Removal - By tapping a pressure point on his brain, Jin can remove the natural restrictions and limits placed on his body, allowing him to reap a massive boost in speed and strength. He can multiply his power up to 250,000x his base stats.

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Technique Mimicry

Jin can copy any physical technique or martial art he sees. So stuff like Fork, Knife, Kugi Punch, (and maybe Enbu) could get copied.

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Full Contact Karate

Kyokushin Karate is a martial arts copied from Han Dae-Wi

1st Stance: Basaltic Fist- The user interrupts the opponents defense with a strong explosive punch

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Couldn't find the scan of Mori using it lol

Basaltic Uppercut- Similar to the basaltic fist but aimed towards the air, blasting the opponent upwards

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Kick of the Red Phoenix- This technique send a shockwave into the ground with a kick

Dance of the White Tiger- A barrage of punches and kicks used to add up to the Blue Dragon wave

Here are scans explaining all of them-

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Wolfgang Swordsmanship (moonlight sword style)- A swordsmanship fighting style copied from Yu Mi-Ra

Palm Strike (tong bei quan) - The user opens their palm and extends their hand, sending a wave of chi through their opponent

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Barehand Slice - Turns the hand into a bladed weapon capable of easily cutting through flesh

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Basic vertical slash- Mori uses Yeoui in place of sword for this technique, which, as the name implis, is a basic vertical slash

Mori Jin Originals

Jin Hwechook and Kick of the Blue Dragon fall under this category, but I'll go in depth with it later in the opener. For now I'll try to keep the skill section relatively short

Strength

Another aspect about Mori that is superior to Toriko is his strength. Mori's physical srength is just as astonishing as his durability and skill. He has striking feats that make anything in Toriko (bar White's finger poke) look like child's play.

I was planning on holding back some of his best feats until I saw your opener and arguments, but seeing as you don't have knowledge on Mori I decided to lay out all my cards on the table (except for a few feats).

Lifting

When in battle, Jin is almost always seen carrying his magical staff, Yeoui. Whether he's in God form or in base, he's capable of wielding said staff and swinging it like it's paperweight. But how heavy is the staff in question? Well bottom line, much heavier than entire planets.

First of all, Jin's staff is capable of piercing and cracking planets by simply expanding after being set down:

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This is the size of the planet in question, and it should be also noted that the planet wasn't completely destroyed due to seven layers of extremely dense material

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Next, there is a God in GoH named Uriel, who was able intercept Mars after it was telekinetically thrown (at FTL speeds) by Han Dae-Wi.

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Uriel was able to hold Mars over her head (albeit for a short time) after it was tossed at FTL. Taking the planetary mass of Mars multiplied by the speed of light gives her large planet lvl lifting feat while she was in base.

Yet in Phase 2, her arms completely snapped off her body when she tried to lift Jin's staff:

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And that was yeoui in it's contracted form.

Striking

Jin punches Natak hard enough to jet stream a blast of air pressure into space, spreading across a planetary continent. Keep in mind this feat was done on the Sage Realm, a supermassive planet that's dozens of times larger than Jupiter

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While in base, without any power ups, he was able to match Sujin's right flamingo with a Hwechook that created a planet-sized shock wave on the Sage Realm

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666: Satan absorbed the Sun's corona and compressed it into a laser beam, and Jin kicks through it with moderate effort

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These aren't even his best striking feats, but they should be suffiecient enough to get my point across, especially the last one.

Durability

This is by far my favorite section. Jin's durability feats are insane. I think he's also superior to Toriko in this regard as well, the things he's tanked and no-sold are nonsensical. I'll be holding back some of these too

His best standout durability feat was probably tanking the explosion of the Sage Realm; while critically injured, depowered, and in base. To put it into perspective, the Sage Realm is many magnitudes larger than Jupiter (which in turn is larger than the Toriko planet)

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^ The planet about to explode:

Jin tanks the explosion:

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He also no-sold the collision of two planets at what could only be FTL speeds:

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Now before you make the argument that the planets were small due to seeing the curvature, note that that's just the author's drawing style. Also the scans are really long due to being a manwha. The size of the planets were decent, average sized planets as we can see the scale of their entire Solar system here:

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Tanked FCP's lightning blade that nearly cleaved the entire Sage Realm in half, and considering the size of the Sage realm, Toriko's knife would probably tickle

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And he tanked countless blows from Satan, which I will get into later. But yea gg

Speed

Another category where Jin is superior by feats. Even in base he was capable of blitzing the Prince with 3rd stance Hwechook who has superluminal (FTL) reaction speeds. But since that's a smll time feat I'll skip to his best ones.

Jin's staff, Yeoui, was fast enough to extend from the moon to the earth before a spear already touching Daewi's back could fully pierce him. That means it traveled that distance in about a fraction of a second, making it many times FTL

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To further reiterate how truly short the timeframe was, Taek Jae-Kal (a hypersonic opponent, seeing as he could fight Ilpyo who ignites the air with friction from speed alone) wasn't able to react when an angel threw a spear through his torso, even after he powered up

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And that was Taek after absorbing the key, and weaker versions of him were hypersonic+. So it was probably in thousandths of a second range, making Yeoui dozens of times FTL on a low end (it takes the speed of light over a second to travel from earth to moon and vice-versa).

Also, Natak was able to dodge the extension of Yeoui to his face (giving him FTL reaction speeds)

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Yea, it's also called Ruyi Jingu but Yeoui is the official translation. Anyways, now that we can clearly see that Natak has FTL reaction speeds, we can get a bottom line of how fast Jin is. Mori IN BASE was fast enough to blitz the prince, kicking him 3 times over with third stance Hwechook before he could react

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Whether it be through the use of Yeoui or H2H, that should cement the fact that Jin has FTL combat speeds in much weaker forms

In speed mode Jin was fast enough to intercept and block a stab from an entirely different solar system (so it doubles as travel and combat speed)

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As for the timeframe, he did that before another FTL character (Ohkwang) could land a point blank blow. Since we don't know the distance we have to take the low end for the feat, but bottom line is MFTL+ speeds

Trades dozens of blows with satan across the surface of the Sun in a mere picosecond (MFTL)

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That feat has been contested but it doesn't take away from his other feats.

Weapons

ok

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Yeoui (yay- oh - eee)

Also known as Ruyi Jingu (RJ), Yeoui is Jin's magical staff that can expand, extend, and contract. He normally uses it as a bludgeon to whack his opponents to death, though he's been seen using it for cutting attacks on numerous occasions; it's weight making up for the lack of an edge.

You already know how heavy Yeoui is, as well as how fast it is, so let's see some of it's feats. The sheer speed of Yeoui's extension was able to vaporize thousands of Angels without making direct contact, both on earth and the sage realm.

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And to put that into perspective, a single Angel was durable enough to tank the explosion of 567 nuclear warheads, (amped by magic) in addition to a live meteorite that dwarfed the surrounding city.

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Considering that it takes just a couple of low yield missiles to wipe a city off the map, dozens of America's strongest meteors could level a mountain. And now we're talking about 567 nuclear warheads, AND a gargantuan meteorite? You'd be hardpressed NOT to argue that as a mountain+ to multi-mountain feat.

And that was one Angel, Yeoui vaporized thousands of Nephilim from the friction of it's sheer speed alone...

Flying Sparrow Cloud (Nimbus Cloud/Geonduwun)

Unlike Yeoui, there's no standout or flashy about Mori's nimbus cloud. He mainly uses it for high speed interstellar travel, though occassionally he can use it defensively as a shield.

His cloud was strong enough to nullify the shock from FCP's Warhammer, which was stated by bystander to be strong enough to shatter the Sage Realm into pieces

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So it's blunt force durability is easily super planet+

Gourd Bottle

A magical object that can absorb things and stores them inside a pocket dimension. It was stated to hold Jin's memories, was capable of sealing Gods (Jin himself was sealed by it when Sujin used it against him) and sealed the entire population of the Sage Realm, including all of the natural wild life of the planet. I won't be going in depth with it because BFR is restricted in this match. So this is just FYI

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Miscellaneous

Cloning

Jin has demonstrated the ability to make up to 100 clones for combat

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Each of the clones can use all of Jin's techniques, like his martial arts, physical prowess, and speed mode. Though the power lvl of the clone depends on the distance from the original, as clearly explained by Mori hui, a clone himself

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Mori Hui was a lot weaker by feats compared to Jin, but the reason was because he gets weaker the farther he is from Jin. Him and Jin were in entirely different dimensions, and you can't get farther than two entirely separate planes of space

Lightning

Jin can summon bolts of lightning

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Kaguya Otsutsuki Respect Thread (Naruto)

Overview

Kaguya is a character and one of the major villains originating from the ubiquitous Naruto franchise. She's the single most powerful character in Naruto, and due to her actions, she's essentially regarded as the big bad wolf of the entire series. Recently I thought of this idea of making a respect thread for her, because she's either heavily wanked or extremely lowballed when mentioned in the battle forums. The current image of her on CV is fluctuating between overpowered and overhyped so this thread will clear up her powers and abilities as well as nature. Respect the princess

The Rabbit Goddess

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Bio

Kaguya is the progenitor of the Otsutsuki clan and the Mother of chakra. She arrived in the Land of Ancestors during an era of endless war, and she ate the fruit from the God Tree in order to attain God-like powers and end the conflict herself. Some time after this, she gave birth to two sons, Hagoromo and Hamura respectively. However, she became enraged at her sons for inheriting her ability to utilize chakra, and she combined the God Tree with herself to gain the monstrous form of the Ten-Tails. The battle ended with her being sealed in the moon by her sons, with Hagoromo dividing her remaining chakra to create the Tailed Beast.

But apparently, Kaguya's will manifested a physical form which was the entity known as Black Zetsu, and ever since then, Zetsu has been manipulating numerous people and orchestrating a series of events to resurrect Kaguya. But even though Zetsu betrayed Madara and resurrected her, she was defeated yet again by the Ninja Jesus duo.

In my opinion Kaguya's character was rushed and not fleshed out. Kishimoto wrote Madara to be too powerful; not having an actual way to get rid of him so he turned him into Kaguya and had her ironically and redundantly sealed again by asspull and PIS. A full article of her bio using the anime filler episodes (which I had to watch to make this) can be found here. The manga canon is found in chapter 646-

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Powers and Abilities

Overall, Kaguya has demonstrated-

  • Super strength, speed, and durability
  • Chakra manipulation
  • Flight
  • Regeneration (True Godly)
  • Limited precognition via Sharingan
  • 360 degree vision via Byakugan
  • X-ray vision via Byagukan
  • Space-Time manipulation
  • Dimensional Manipulation
  • Mass spammable BFR
  • Teleportation/Portal creation
  • Telepathy
  • True Immortality
  • Illusion creation/hypnosis via Infinite Tsukonyomi
  • Body Control (can manipulate her hair for a variety of purposes, can also manipulate her bones)
  • Portal creation
  • Chakra absorption (and can likely use all Rinnegan abilities - which would include several sub powers)
  • Yin-yang manipulation
  • Elemental Manipulation via TSB
  • Transformation (Tailed Beast)

Her powerset, while not too flashy or versatile, is straightforward and hard hitting. Her abilities may not be as seductive as the ninja jesus duo- and though she's lacking in raw stats she has pure hax and roundabout fighting style that make her a formidable opponent in battle either way.

Chakra and Physical Prowess

Due to eating the God Fruit, Kaguya obtained God-like powers with unrivaled chakra and physical prowess. It was stated by Naruto to be even greater than Ten Tails (a beast known for it's chakra)[1]. She was also the first person to ever wield chakra, and is capable of absorbing any technique she encounters[2]. Kaguya's power vastly eclipses any individual member of Team 7, and they still wouldn't have won without PIS. She was running through Naruto's clones like paper mache, was capable of reacting to/keeping pace with the duo and physically matched them multiple times.

Ninjutsu

-Amenominaka ( 天之御中, lit. Heavenly Governing Inside)

One of her most famous attributes is her ability to BFR opponents (battle field removal). Kaguya is capable of instantly teleporting her adversaries to any of her dimensions and is almost impossible to guard against in battle. This ability is known as Amenominaka.

The first time she used it was when she teleported herself and Team 7 into her lava dimension before any of them could react-

[Naruto- Chapter 679]

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She then teleports Team 7 again to her Ice Dimension before they can react, flash freezing Naruto and Sasuke instantly-

[Naruto- Chapter 682]

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Yet she is able to move in her ice as well as teleport freely through her dimensions with the use of portals-

[Same chapter, 682]

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She decides it would be more efficient to take Naruto and Sasuke one at a time, so without warning she dimension dumps Sasuke (instantaneous BFR)

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It was revealed that Kaguya also has an Acid Dimension, which is filled with a sea of acidic/corrosive liquid

[Naruto- Chapter 685]

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She BFRs them all again to the gravity dimension-

[Naruto- Chapter 686]

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She dimension swaps again, catching everyone off-gaurd

[Naruto- Chapter 687]

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Though Kaguya can outright BFR nearly anyone she wants, (lest they have resistance or can dimension travel themselves) she doesn't rely on it solely for battle. She has several other jutsu and technique that she uses with excellent proficiency. For example, she can control and manipulate her hair and body for a variety of purposes.

-Rabbit Hair Needle ( 兎毛針, lit. Togebari):

A Kekkai Mora jutsu that turns her malleable hair into a makeshift needles for offensive purpose. Basically, Kaguya weaponizes her hair and launches a barrage of needles at her opponent. It was capable of piercing Sasuke's Susanoo, and when used in conjuction with the Byakugan can puncture the vital pressure points of her enemy.

[Naruto- Chapter 680]

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-Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack (八十神空撃, lit. Yasogami Kūgeki):

By manipulating her chakra, Kaguya can materialize massive arms and fist made of pure chakra and pummel her opponent with a barrage of punches. Using the technique, it was strong enough to casually overpower Naruto's chakra fist and it effortlessly broke Sasuke's Six Paths Chakra: Complete Body Susanoo

[Naruto- Chapter 680/681]

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*Context* - In order to appreciate that feat, you need to understand the context for it (for those who don't read Naruto). Sasuke's Six Paths Susanoo was capable of tanking the explosion from an enhanced Chidori and Naruto's TBB

[Naruto- Chapter 695]

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As you can see, the resulting explosion was of an audacious magnitude, dwarfing multiple mountain ranges in the surrounding landscape. And keep in mind it was partially from Naruto's TBB, so to put that into context we need to know how powerful Naruto's TBB are.

**Double Context**

When Naruto had only half of Kurama's chakra he was capable of generating a TBB that matched the combined bijuudama of 5 other tailed beast, resulting in this explosion-

[Naruto- Chapter 571]

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So basically, a far weaker TBB is a multi-mountain range buster and Sasuke's Susanoo tanked the explosion of one.

And Kaguya broke it like a toothpick.

-All-Killing Ash Bones (共殺の灰骨, lit. Tomogoroshi no Haikotsu):

A sure-kill ninjutsu, Kaguya potrudes bones from her palms (or her back) and fires them as projectiles towards her enemy. Upon making contact, the organism pierced by the bone will then start to disintegrate on a molecular level, deteriorating the victim until they've been eroded to a pile of ash.

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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She uses it to promptly slaughter Naruto's clones

[Naruto- Chapter 686]

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Reduced Obito to a pile of Ash

[Naruto- Chapter 687]

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Six Paths Sage Jutsu:

Six Paths Senjutsu is a heightened form/ability/mode for those who acquire the sages chakra. This can be done by becoming the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki or gaining Hagoromo or Hamura's power. However, Kaguya skips those stages due to being the progenitor of chakra itself.

Ying-Yang Release (Onmyoton)-

Yin-Yang release is a combination of Yin Release (spiritual energy) and Yang release (physical energy). Users of Yin Yang release have access of every known ninjutsu in creation, and can nullify the effects of any and all known ninjutsu used against them, rendering it useless.

Truth-Seeking Ball (Goudama)-

Truth seeking balls/orbs are malleable spheres of black chakra composed of all 5 nature transformations and Yin-Yang release. They can be molded and shaped in different ways for a variety of purposes. Any power that comes in contact with the orbs will be negated, and the TSB have the ability to disintegrate all matter at a molecular level, completely destroying what they touch and nullifying regeneration of the Edo (similar to Dust Release and All-Killing Ash Bones).

[Naruto- Chapter 639]

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Can also immobilize her victims while she absorbs their chakra/energy

[Naruto- Chapter 681]

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Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (膨張求道玉 lit. Bōchō Gudōdama)

After absorbing the chakra from all the victims of IT, Kaguya created a supersized gudoudama, known as the Bocho Gudoudama (expansive truth-seeking ball). It is an expanding mass of chakra capable of obliterating an entire world and then recreating it

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Dojutsu

Byakugan-

Kaguya is the first person to ever wield the Byakugan, thus she has all of it's abilities. The Byakugan is on of the 3 great Dojutsu (others being the Sharingan and Rinnegan). Using the Byakugan Kaguya gains near 360 degree vision (with the exception of a small blindspot)-

[Naruto- Chapter 196]

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Byakugan users can also see through solid objects, as well as see the chakra pathways of the opponent. Kaguya used it to see naruto and Sasuke's chakra, immediately recognizing it as similar to her lineage

[Naruto- Chapter 679]

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Taking advantage of the Byakugan, Kaguya can see the vital pressure points of her opponent and target them, upon hitting said pressure points she can immobilize her victims

[Naruto- Chapter 680

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Immobilized Sasuke and his hawk, making hem fall into the lava

Genjutsu

-Infinite Tsukuyomi (無限月読, Mugen Tsukuyomi):

An extremely powerful illusory technique that takes effect on a planetary scale. It is a genjutsu (telepathic attack) that traps the entire world in a dream-like state, enslaving all of humanity so they chakra can be fed upon.

[Naruto- Chapter 671 and 676]

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It spreads over the entire world, and yes, can affect people without chakra (or use of it)

[Naruto- Chapter 677]

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It is a set up for God: Nativity of a World of Trees, an jutsu which produces tree roots across the planet to ensnare victims and subject them to Kaguya's authority. Once caught they are bundled and have their energy/chakras absorbed

[Same chapter, 677]

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Kaguya has been stated to be able to use the Sharingan, has demonstrated use of the Byakugan, and by virtue of association can use the Rinnegan. However, she didn't demonstrate any of the higher techniques in battle, so if you are interested in the 3 Great Dojutsu you can read about it here 1, 2, 3

Feats

Strength

Not much here. Kaguya isn't a a physical brawler, and though she rarely engages in h2h she still has amazing strength feats. The most prominent was breaking Sasuke's Susanoo with her chakra fist and overpowering Naruto in a trade of blows (context was provided, making this a small country lvl feat)

[Naruto- Chapter 680/681]

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In her first appearance she casually grabs narusauce with her hair and throws them several meters away

[Naruto- Chapter 679]

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She casually block attacks from multiple Naruto's at a time

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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Fodderizes Naruto's clones

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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Breaks Sasuke's Susanoo again

[Naruto- Chapter 688]

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Speed

No overlaying speed feats either but she scales to Naruto and Sasuke, so at the very least she is lightspeed in reactions with relativistic+ combat speed (context will be provided).

Appears behind Naruto and Sasuke and grabs them before they can do anything

[Naruto- Chapter 681]

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Reacts to a tag team blitz from narusauce and dimension swaps at the last second

[Naruto- Chapter 682]

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Can manipulate the environment of her dimensions. She causes the natural area around Naruto to attack him before he can react

[Naruto- Chapter 683]

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Reacts to an omnidirectional assualt from Naruto's clones

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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Fires an Ash Bone at Naruto's clone, who barely manages to dodge. Then she fires a follow up the same instant, which tags him directly

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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Dodges a teleportation enhanced surprise attack from Sasuke

[Naruto- Chapter 687]

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*Context*

Kaguya can generally keep up with both Naruto and Sasuke. Far weaker versions of Naruto have quadruple digit mach (MHS+) for over 100 chapters. For example when Naruto reacts to Ay who can blitz lightning timers

[Naruto- Chapter 544]

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And is So6P he dodges a light fang, an attack that travels at LS (supposedly) at point blank

[Naruto- Chapter 674]

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And Narusauce are both faster than Guy who can warp space with his sheer speed alone

[Naruto- Chapter 672]

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And Kaguya should be as fast if not faster than both individually

Durability

She completely no-sells amaterasu

[Naruto- Chapter 682]

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Then tanks a punch from Naruto

[Same chapter- 682]

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Tanks another hit from Naruto that sends her into an ice structure before he clones himself

[Naruto- Chapter 684]

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Tanks Naruto's Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken

[Naruto- Chapter 688]

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*Context* -

Regular bijuudama rasenshurikens were capable of pulverizing country lvl meteors

[Naruto- Chapter 676/677]

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*Story Context*

Naruto's Super Tailed Beast Raseshuriken was imbued with chakra from all 9 tailed beast, so when it exploded on Kaguya the ten tails chakra within her reacted violently and forced her to undergo a hideos transformation into a partial Juubi. She went out of control, and Black Zetsu noticed she couldn't fight effectively. So in order to get back to normal Kaguya absorbed the chakra from all the captives of Infinite Tsukonyomi and used it to create the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball, from which she then used as a catalyst to regenerate an entirely new body

[Naruto- Chapter 688/689]

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Misconceptions

1. Kaguya is not multiversal - Not as common with level headed debaters as much as trolls, but this is till something I wanted to get out of the way. Many people think because Kaguya's creates dimensiones she's like multiversal in power which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

2. Kaguya is not Star lvl or Solar system - And a star being seen in one of her dimensions doesn't translate to her destructive capacity at all, as it would be a massive outlier, and they were formed through unknown means with a unknown timeframe

3. ETSB as a way to attack - All things considered, ETSB (her only planet lvl attack) isn't practical to use in combat at all unless she has prep. It requires her to absorb chakra from all the people trapped in IT to make and even then it takes a crazy long charge time before it can detonate, as Team 7 completed an entire attack sequence before she could use it

My take on Kaguya

DC/AP - At least Country lvl, (stated to have more chakra than the Juubi who did this, stronger than Madara who did this, and broke Sasuke's Susanoo) Likely Moon lvl (fought two generations of the Ninja Jesus Duo, both pairs could create moons) Possibly Planet lvl with ETSB (could supposedly destroy a world, backed by databooks)

Speed - Relativistic

Durability - Country lvl, regen and immortality make her hard to kill

Range - Planetary

26 Comments

Saitama CaV

@cosmic_lantern

One-Shot Man

Justice never looked so bald
Justice never looked so bald

Bio

ONE PUUUUUUUUUNCH!!!

For those of you who don't know, One Punch Man is the critically acclaimed comedy shonen series that is essentially a parody of the of the entire shonen demographic. The webcomic started in 2009, was serialized into manga by Shueisha in 2012 after the original canon went viral, and finally was adapted into an anime production by Madhouse in late 2015. It follows the story of the main protagonist, Saitama, an overpowered superhero facing a self-imposed existential crisis (caused by being bored of his immeasurable strength). Every fight ends after only one punch (Garou excluded) and now the story instead focuses on his relationship and interactions with other pro heroes, monsters, and people in the series.

Powers and Abilities

Ummmmm.... powers? Well, we know Saitama can

  • Can throw punches
  • Can kick
  • Can tank things
  • Can jump
  • Can run
  • Hates mosquitos

That's about it lol

Feats

Saitama has a lot of showings, but I won't be using all of his feats, but just the ones I need to get my point across. If you're interested you can read this article from the OPM wikia

Saitama is the titular One-Punch Man and the strongest character in the series. So far no enemy has been able to injure him in any way and almost no enemy is even able to survive from a single earnest punch from him. A few enemies have survived punches from him, such as any human he has struck (which he was likely holding back against) and Boros, whom Saitama empathized with and held back against so as to give himself and Boros a satisfying and stimulating fight. Saitama's only power is that his body is far beyond human limits, allowing him to achieve astounding physical feats. His strength is so great that it vastly eclipses even artificial beings designed or bred specifically for superhuman combat, such as mechanical beings or the mutated warriors from the House of Evolution. Since no enemies have posed any real challenge to Saitama yet, the upper bound of his strength is likely even higher than it appears. While his power is only limited to heightened human traits - Saitama cannot fly or fire energy blasts - his superhuman abilities more than makes up for the lack of variety in his powers.

Striking

Saitama's greatest physical attribute is his immeasurably vast physical strength. In terms of striking (which is all he really does) he has a myriad of showings that put him above Guy. Let's just nitpick at some of his casual showings

Context

First, we'll need some context. This is Beefcakes size, and in both the manga and webcomic he dwarfs mountains and towers above clouds in height:

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^ Undeniably dwarfs mountains

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^ same thing here

Beefcake proceeds to destroy an city with the swing of his fist (scaling is off, but hey, the statement is there)

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The Feat

Saitama oneshots Beefcake by crumpling his face with a punch, which proceeds to destroy another city in the process.

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Conclusion? Saitama was irrefutably mountain lvl+ at this point, and we've already seen casual multi-city busting. People tend to forget how big Beefcake was really intended to be, and why Saitama one-shotting him was so impressive.

Next, we see his showings against Carnage Kabuto, and you'll need some context for this too

Context

Genos partially destroyed a mountain with a casual blast in the manga, and genuinely mountain busted in the anime (upon reaching the house of evolution)

Anime version

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Manga version

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I think that should merit Genos being mountain lvl

Kabuto then no solds a blast from Genos later + machine gun blow (at least mountain lvl durability, obviously much higher)

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That should merit CK's durability

CK then overpowers a full powered blast from Genos with nothing but his breath

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Yea, you'd be trolling if you said Kabuto was anything less than mountain lvl+. And this was casual, while he wasn't even in his strongest form

The Feat

Saitama oneshots Carnage Kabuto in glorious comedic fashion

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This next feat also needs some context.

Context

There is a dragon lvl meteor that no solds Genos' strongest attack, as well as multiple missiles from Metal Knight.

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^ Unfazed by metal knights missiles

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Tanks genos' most powerful ultimate attack. This is Genos with arms mode, using the core for power, and is many times stronger than the one from House of Evolution. An extreme lowball is saying the meteor is multi-mountain lvl

The meteor was stated to be able to wipe out not just Z-City, but every city in immediate vicinity

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By this point it should be apparent that the meteor is mountain+ to multi mountain with extreme lowball.

The Feat

Saitama oneshots this very same meteor, again, with casual effort

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He completely obliterates it dude

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The explosion of Saitama's meteor busting was visible from space

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The mere fragments of the meteor laid waste to Z-City

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Conclusion? Saitama's meteor busting places him at large island/small country in DC.

One shots Sea King, who was toying with S-Class heroes:

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Those weren't even his best feats, but I'm bringing out the big guns later

Speed

I have a feeling speed is going to be an important factor in this debate. That being said, Saitama has a ridiculous amount of showings (not nearly as much as strength however) that suggest he won't at least get blitzed by Guy

Reacts to FTE movement from SOS Sonic

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Reacts to a blitz from Sonic

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Blitzes Sonic

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Blitzes Boros

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Reacts to a surprise attack from Lightspeed Flash

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Context

Lightspeed Flash is fast enough to close the distance between his opponent and throw a string of attacks in 1 centisecond

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Reacts to a blitz from Garou

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Again

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And again

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And yet again

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Should've put this in a spoiler block

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Still one of the greatest panel transitions ever

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Blitzes Garou

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He does it so many times it'd be redundant to post

Durability

Far too many showings from this section lol, it almost feels like there's no point in it (if you read opm). Just now every fight he's ever been in, he's never been hurt, injured, beaten, bruised, or even felt pain

Not a single scratch when Beefcake hits him with a barrage of attacks that buries him kilometers underground

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Not a single scratch when he tanks a brutal onslaught of punches from Carnage Kabuto in Asura Mode. Keep in mind BASE Kabuto can overpower small mountain lvl attacks with his BREATH

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Not a single scratch when Boros is hacking away at him

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COMPLETELY no sells a blast from Boros that is larger than his ship in scale

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There are two versions of Saitama's fight with Boros in the manga, bot both of them have interesting showings

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No sold^

Meteoric Burst!!!!

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^ Boros punched Saitama so hard, that the force of his blow had enough energy to generate heat capable of melting city blocks worth of his ship

Then he spams punches of equal power

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Carries and shoves a spike down his ass

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Then he kicks him to mf moon. At this point, using Saitama seems ridiculous, because Might Guy is inferior to even Boros in striking...

*CAUTION* This next feat you're about to witness has gone on to become one of the most wanked, most lowballed, most hyped, most downplayed, and most controversial striking feats in recent history

The Kick of God:

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Strategy

It's simple. In fact, far too simple; more simple than Saitama's character design.

How does he win? Saitama punches Guy. That's it. He punches him and he dies. No amount of feats, wanking or speculation can change the outcome of this fight. I barely used 1/4th of all of Saitama's feats, and it's obvious what's gonna happen. Saitama's punches can and will kill Guy, especially since he has no durability showings to resist it.

Conclusion

You know what the best part of this is? When cosmic_lantern responds, he won't be arguing against speculation, nor against scaling, no against wank, but actual feats. Hard-earned, on-panel, blatantly showed, and irrefutably explicit feats. Saitama is superior to Guy in every way, and this is without using feats like-

- Overpowering an attack stated to be able to raze the surface of the earth (continental+/multi-continental DC)

- The scan showing the effect of said punch (AOE)

- Destroying 1/3 of the moons surface by merely jumping off of it

- Blitzing characters with low relativistic reaction and combat speeds

I've come to this conclusion. If you think this is a fair match, you either

  • Really, really, really hate Saitama
  • Have complete ignorance on all his feats and his character, never reading opm in your life
  • Are trolling

Can't get any simpler than that

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Good luck! @cosmic_lantern And may the best man win (:

8 Comments

666: Satan Respect Thread (The God of Highschool)

Overview

God of Highschool has recently become a popular series, (at least battle forum wise) with a multitude of interesting and powerful characters, who have amazing feats that's only complimented by the beautiful and stunning artwork of the series. 666 Satan is one of it's strongest characters, and here are reasons why you should respect him.

666: Satan (Master of the 1st Heavenly realm)

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Powers and Abilities

Satan is proficient in nearly all forms of combat. He's skilled in h2h (being able to trade blows with seasoned martial artist like Dae-Wi and Mori) and has exceptional physicals (speed, strength, durability, etc). In addition to that, he has a plethora of good hax, and an array of broken abilities which makes him a well rounded character.

Here's a rundown of what he's capable of:

  • Superhuman strength
  • Superman speed
  • Superhuman durability, stamina, and endurance
  • Regeneration (Low-godly)
  • True Flight/Levitation
  • Mind reading
  • Limited Energy absorption (can absorb light and heat in general)
  • Heat vision
  • Resurrection
  • Power Copying
  • Telekinesis
  • Gravity manipulation
  • Duplication/Cloning
  • Stat amplification via limiter removal

Now that we got that out of the way, onto his showings:

Feats: Part I

Satan trades blows with Han Dae-Wi, who just moments before annihilated several Gods; and was stated to be stronger than the Jade Emperor in his prime (who was depicted a threat to Mori).

Context

Here is context for Han, to show how powerful he is and justify Satan's feat for fighting on par with him-

Fodderizes Zeus with a nuclear blast that flies into space, dwarfing the Korean peninsula while pushing away surrounding water:

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Kills several Gods with a single blow, completely pulverizing them:

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Michael speculates Han is stronger than the Jade Emperor in his prime, who is depicted as a threat to Mori:

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Satan feats

Satan can go toe to toe with Han with no notable effort:

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Satan nerfs himself to hand to hand combat, then Han compares his fighting skill to that of Jin Mori, who is a renowned martial arts expert:

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Closes the distance between himself and Han, then sends him flying with a punch- followed up by an air pressure blasts (which he copied) via Blue Dragon Wave:

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Reads Han Dae-Wi's mind to copy his technique preemptively:

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Tanks a repulsive force blast from Dae-Wi that sends him to the moon. He is unfazed, Saitama style:

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Context

Han Dae-Wi then pulls Mars from Orbit and throws it at Earth, done at FTL speeds:

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This is the effect of what would happen if Mars crashed into earth in real life:

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Satan then copies this technique as soon as he sees it, but attempts replicates it on a much larger scale:

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Satan casually pulls the planet Jupiter from orbit and launches it a MFTL+ speeds towards the Earth. He did this feat casually, in base, with no visible strain or effort:

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Satan completely obliterates Mars on-panel (unintentionally, as a side effect of the technique):

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Dun-Dun-Dun! Jin Mo-Ri arrives

Solo God solos
Solo God solos

Satan begins to lose his shit at the sight of Mori:

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Satan and Mori trade blows, which results in a massive shockwave that tears open the crust of the Earth and seeps out magma:

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Mori and Satan go toe to toe:

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Satan enters Phase 2: Wings Unleashed which increases his power:

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Satan reacts to Mori in speed mode (who's MFTL+) and tanks a blow that sends him underwater:

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Jin delivers a fully powered punch on Satan (while amped with power mode, and Jin has planetary striking in base) which shatters his ribs, yet Satan tanks it:

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Satan copies Jin's cloning to perfection:

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Satan tags Mori in speed mode and sends him crashing down:

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After that Jin cuts his legs off and he reattaches them:

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Satan closes the distance in a flash:

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Jin and satan began to viciously trade blows in a epic action sequence:

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Scans are backward

MFTL+ characters casually breaking the sound barrier LMAO (idk what the author was doing, still badass)

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Nope, not today Monkey:

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The next few scans will just be a spamming of their awesome fight:

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Satan tags Mori as he's trying to dip

Satan pulls out the clones:

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Satan can shoot energy beams/heat vision from his eyes:

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The shockwaves from Satan's heat vision destroys large chunks of a mountain:

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Copies a renewal taekwondo technique before jin even uses it, leaving him clueless

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Satan reads his mind and copies limiter removal

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Limiter removal amps his stats and Satan breaks Jin's staff in half:

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Context:

If you don't know GoH, you might think Jin is swinging around a simple ol' staff is lame, or that Satan breaking it in half is unimpressive. In reality it's far from that, and I'm here to show you why satan breaking the staff is a planetary striking feat

First of all, Jin's staff is capable of piercing and cracking dwarf planets by simply expanding after being set down:

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Next, there is a God in GoH named Uriel, who was able intercept Mars after it was telekinetically thrown (at FTL speeds) by Han Dae-Wi.

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Uriel was able to hold Mars over her head (albeit for a short time) after it was tossed at FTL. Taking the planetary mass of Mars multiplied by the speed of light gives her large planet lvl lifting feat while she was in base.

Yet in Phase 2, her arms completely snapped off her body when she tried to lift Jin's staff:

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That means that the mass of Jin's staff, Yeoui, is greater than the mass of a planet multiplied by (at least) the speed of light.

Satan broke it like a toothpick:

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He's planetary+ in striking at limiter removal 52x, and both he and Jin can allegedly multiply their stats up to 250,000x. You don't have to be a math genius to figure out the results. Their single blows can logically destroy FTL moving planets thousands of times over, which means they're around star lvl in striking at their strongest

Feats: Part II

That was a basic rundown of Satan's power. A majority of everything shown thus far was performed casually. The second half of Satan and Jin's fight is located in outer space, and contains feats that bump them from Herald lvl to Teambuster.

Satan cleaves through a point-blank lightning blast from Mori that literally cuts the sky clean in half:

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Once in space, Satan begins to physically dominate Mori:

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His punches give him funny faces:

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Satan explains his absorption powers:

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Satan punches Jin from Earth's orbit all the way into the Sun

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After Sun-Dumping Jin, Satan followed through with a kick immediately after:

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Context-

The Sun is about 93 million miles from Earth, and it takes the speed of light 8 full minutes to get there

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Satan punched Jin into the sun in a short timeframe, then immediately followed up with a kick afterwards, making him both MFTL+ in combat speed and travel speeds. However this should've been apparent after tossing Jupiter (which is 33 light minutes from earth) and tagging Mori in speed mode (who can scale entire solar systems in seconds)

Satan continues his onslaught against Mori, pounding away in a brutal, relentless blitz

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Even he acknowledges the fact that he's clowning him:

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Satan unleashes the God-tier cloning technique on a universal scale:

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SWEET MOTHER OF GOD THAT'S A LOT OF CLONES:

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Wtf??????
Wtf??????

Amps his stats 250,000x, but get blitzed before he could use it. Btw Jin killed all of Satan's clones previously before that. Kudos to him:

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Regenerates after being dismembered by Jin's ultra martial arts attack:

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Enters Phase 3. Longer hair = more power:

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Tanks physical abuse from Jin while the latter is amped at 250k

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Absorbs the Sun's surface (corona):

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Unleashes an energy beam/heat vision blasts from his eyes that compressed and pressurized all the heat he's accumulated at once:

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Tanks kicking imoogi + blue dragon kick from Jin at 250k (scans are becoming really long so they appeared cropped):

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Jin and Satan trade hundreds, possibly thousands of blows in a single picosecond. At this point they're dancing all across the surface of the Sun, their blows causing abnormal weather phenomenons and mass delusions all they way back on Earth:

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The size of Jin and Satans shockwaves:

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Context-

In order to fully appreciate the last feat you just saw you need understand the size difference between the Sun and the solar system. This is the Sun compared to every planet in the solar system:

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The size of jin and Satans shockwaves (as shown) are comparable to the actual Sun itself. This next feat is the main show-stopper-

Jin and Satan literally turn off the universe:

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Feats: Part III

The climax of part 2 was something to marvel at. The art of the series not only has breathtaking visuals, but compliments the feats in a way I rarely see. As for part 3, this section will be covering Satan's badassery in a depowered, weakened, and depleted state afterJin's final attack killed him (some hax is here too).

Satan survives Jin's universe-extinguishing-attack (the feat is sadly unquantifiable) and punches him back to earth:

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Satan punches Jin back to earth in a single panel (MFTL+ striking?) and the force burrows cleanly through a mountain then wrecks the mountain range:

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Satan reveals he has two lives (one for each horn) and can sacrifice one to survive sure-kill attack. He uses it to essentially bring himself back from the dead:

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Satan releases his right wing then rips straight through a continent:

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Context-

Han Dae-Wi bent space to deflect Satans attack so that it may not hurt Mori. After that, Satan releases his left wing then kicks Mori. At the same time, The Loop of Binding (the crown on Mori's head) is broken and he cancels out Satan's kick, then jin follows through to deliver the finishing blow:

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Satan tanks the concluding blow from Mori, but is not defeated by having his durability overwhelmed, but rather a broken morale. This shows his stamina and endurance are extremely high:

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Misconceptions-

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1. Jin Mo-Ri is not universal. Yes, his battle with Satan affected the Universe on-panel, and he's been called the God of the Universe on different occasions (by the spirits of the floor masters and by Odin), but he isn't universal (trust me, I wish). The universe feat was unquantifiable and shouldn't be applicable in battles, the same goes for Satan. I'm clearing this up because I was asked this multiple times, and I don't want people to see the threads in part 2 and claim GoH characters are universal

2. Satan is a boy. Believe it or not, yes this was a question. He doesn't switch genders in phase II, so before you even ask why his hips are so wide, just no.

3. There are 7 heavenly realms. Stated by both Satan and Odin. Satan is the master of the first one, and Garuda is the master of the 2nd one, and only 3 have been shown. A new season of GoH just started called "Battle of the Gods" with different characters, so for those who read the series, look forward to possibly powerful new villains in the future.

Conclusion

My take on 666: Satan:

DC/AP: Star lvl

Speed: MFTL

Durability: Star lvl. Has regeneration and can resurrect himself from the dead, making him difficult to permanently kill.

Range: Standard melee with h2h. Dozens of kilometers with heat vision. Several AU with planet toss, clones, or physical BFR

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Final Counters

@sophia89 said:

This will be my final post. GV and I agreed to keep the CAV short, so I’ll answer or explain things I did not do in my previous posts, and my conclusion in this post.

Likewise

First, I’d like to say that GV made this fun and was a really cool debater.

There is no counter for this

Thanks though, same to you

Second, I was not portraying Gremmy as a fodder ninja. Madara killed an entire army of fodder ninja with ease while holding back. If it wasn’t for three kage level ninja with them (Naruto, Onooki, and Gaara), they would have been killed by just his taijutsu and basic ninjutsu. So, anyways, lets jump right in.

True

While Kakashi’s wall managed to keep Obito’s fire from reaching him, Madara is on a completely different tier and his fire release is also on a completely different tier. Obito without Kamui lost to Kakashi, and even with the juubi upgrade he was still not fast enough to keep up with Tobiama and Minato, and Naruto and Sasuke were reacting to him.

Everyone knows Madara is stronger than Obito. The point I was getting at is that stone walls are good counters to fire release, which they can be. Obviously if the scale and power of the fire is greater, so must the strength and fortification of the wall

Normal Madara, on the other hand, reacted to Tobirama, blitzed Naruto, and Sasuke couldn’t react or tag him. A giant hand can’t block Madara’s fire attack; otherwise, Choji who can make a giant everything would have blocked it or Naruto who could also at the time make his hand bigger would have blocked it; instead of wasting so much of his chakra to protect the alliance from being roasted.

Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it's not possible to happen. By that logic, all statements for character power levels are completely invalid; for example, Momoshiki being continent level by Sasuke's statements, which you later refer to in your next post. I see what you're getting at, but it's really not my fault that Choji didn't do that. Maybe the fire was too hot for his hand to hold, and if that's the case, it won't be a problem for Gremmy because he's not using his hands

The version of Naruto that blocked Sasuke’s fire release is him in god tier in the NV. In that form he blocked Toneri’s moon splitting beam, and was able to contain and tank a blast said to be capable of wiping out multiple countries in Boruto. So not exactly a normal hand.

He's also gotten stronger after the series ended, so the feats don't transfer. And Sasuke was referring to Naruto, not Momoshiki

As for the water release stopping it. Keep in mind that the water release that was used was “Water wall” it supposed to create a massive water wall to block attacks then stay until the user uses the water for an attack or undoes the jutsu.

If Gremmy can imagine walls of stone and blocks of water, there's nothing stopping him from imagining walls of water

To give a similar degree, when the third Raikage was fighting and they asked for an earth release, mud wall. The mud wall was massive in height, width, and length. Madara’s fire release went through it with one shot and before they even know what happened Madara’s second release was hitting him. So, Gremmy can’t block that with a simple cube of water or stone walls.

If the first two strategies don't work, he can redirect the fire or imagine it as something else

I already said he will use his massive stone tower to escape it, but at the time Madara will have 16 clones attacking it from everywhere with their own fire release. And as your own scan showed, a weaker fire release went through stone.

My points still stand, this doesn't debunk anything

What I meant about Gremmy being distracted is not him getting distracted by some shiny keys, I meant that he will be so focused on killing Madara that he won’t focus if he is walking into a trap or that he is in a bind and should retreat.

Depends on what kind of trap we're talking about. If it's anything like the counters you've already given, then it's definitely not working. Gremmy being bloodlusted and using the power of imagination only means Madara dies faster

Edo tensei binds the soul to Earth and uses a human sacrifice as the building block. So, Madara forced his soul to dirt and kept fighting the kages while everyone else was turning into dirt. It wasn't till a bit later that he undid the jutsu from his own side, but he still forced his body to stay in dirt.

The edo tensei is a lot more complicated than that, but basically what you're trying to say is Madara can have his soul in objects and fight effectively right? Well, first that would be with prep, and second the nature of Gremmy's imagination is different from a technique with overly complicated prerequisites. Attaining a human sacrfice, gaining the dead person's DNA, etc. Basically, binding a persons soul to earth isn't the same as being transmuted before you realize it. They are similar but how the person reacts can be different depending on the smallest factors. So no, we cannot equate the two

While the shockwaves will be limited to the ground, as you have stated. Once the meteors impacts they create massive dust and ash clouds that cover very massive distance. For example, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs (one of the theories of what killed the dinosaurs, anyways) killed some in the immediate vicinity from the impact, but killed the rest from the dust/ash clouds it created. If Gremmy doesn’t climb very high up then he will be in total blindness and if he breathes (Since his body is not real, I don’t know if he breathes) he will choke to death. If he imagines that the air around him is clear, then more will just replace it as there will so much. The meteor that killed the dinosaurs was about 6 miles in size (Source), each meteor we’re bringing down is much bigger than that and we’re bringing multiple of those. (Side note: Madara’s first meteor helped ease up the damage the second created).

The response to this entire paragraph is simple: Regeneration. Dust and ash isn't killing Gremmy, he would simply imagined the damaged parts healed. I don't really know how he'd be able to see, but I'm sure he can just sense Madara's immense spiritual pressure (shared universe) which would give off his location

Madara could use Limbo before becoming Juudara. It was what he used to one shot the bijuu and hold sasuke in place while stabbing him. It was first seen in chapter 659 (Scan).

Thanks for the scan. I genuinely forgot so my apologies

The NV characters can transform into very small stones or shurkinens (Keep in mind when they become shurkins they lose weight as well so they can be thrown). So, being Turned into one, doesn’t mean Madara is stuck.

This doesn't really make sense, Madara using transformation ninjutsu on himself and willingly coming back from

Since the transformation jutsu is among the most simple jutsus in the NV it wouldn’t be a stretch for Madara to transform back. Or transform his organs back.

It would be a stretch for him to transform back, because it's only possible to do something like that with transformation jutsu, which aren't permanent and can be reversed at anytime. And Gremmy doesn't use transformation jutsu, so reversing Gremmy's transmutation by using the same way to undo a transformation jutsu wouldn't make sense. Just because they have the similar end results doesn't mean the process is the same, so they should not be treated as the same thing

As for the HF means nothing to transformation. Keep in mind that losing an organ and being cool is the same as having it turn into stone. You’re not using it either way, only difference is with Gremmy it will transform back once he has to do a different thing.

Losing an organ is not the same as having one being turned into stone. It's true that you don't have it anymore either way, but if Madara had his heart turned to stone, he couldn't regenerate a new heart. If Boa Hancock hit Madara with a love beam and turned his body into stone, he couldn't regenerate a new body. And Gremmy won't have to transform Madara back, one he is in pebble form Gremmy would have essentially won

The lava thing is actually a good strategy. Kudos. However, since Madara will have hid and left his clones to fight, Gremmy can’t do that to him as he can’t imagine anything on something/someone he can’t see.

He couldn't see Yachiru's bones but he still changed it, and he couldn't remember who Lee was but still erased his existence. So he can change Madara's bloodstream by imagining it, whether he could see Madara's body or not. The fight will be starting face to face anyway.

And after seeing his clones’s bloodstream turn into lava, he will completely avoid a direct confrontation and use clones or summonings to fight.

Not if his own is turned first, and Madara will start the fight off with his real body facing Gremmy, then he would summon clones to run away but by that time Gremmy would have completed a thought

And if and when he gets in direct confrontation he will have the substitute jutsu on speed dial. The instant he sees Gremmy’s brain lighting up he is gone.

Substitution jutsu is pretty handy to escape the vicinity, but Gremmy would still sense where he is, and Madara woud eventually have to converge to attack

I wasn’t making the case that Madara will spirit crush Gremmy, but rather that Gremmy can’t spirit crush Madara. I then covered all possibilities (I.E. shared Universe means Madara is the one with more spirit energy. Even without SU NV’s chakra is a combination of both Physical/mental/spiritual energies so still has enough SE to resist a SC, and even if we go solely by Bleach’s rules, then Madara is a normal human thus immune to the SC).

I thought you were making the case that Madara had more energy than Gremmy (which is true) so he would spirit crush him. But I never intended to use spirit crush as a real way to win, it's cheap and boring and would be unfair.

The clones are inorganic beings, so turning their organs into stone won't effect them as it is already fake. Only Lava will work.

It would still incapacitate them, and he can just imagine them as lava entirely

Susanoo is not a thin blade; it is very thick. It won’t make a small cut in Gremmy like Kenpachi, but completely destroy his body.

He would still regenerate. Kenpachi's meteor busting slices in shikai are in the same tier as slices from Madara's Susanoo in terms of DC, at least by feats

In my 8 plans, I posted how Gremmy’s brain will be attacked. I’ll put them in spoilers below.

  1. Use his fire release, majestic flame destroyer
  2. Use a clone and have the clone blitz stab Gremmy in the brain with a chakra rod
  3. Use his Susanoo to smash Gremmy’s body completely (His incomplete susanoo did this).
  4. If all the above some failed, he can summon the ninetails and combine it with his PS and unleash multiple attacks that would completely vaporize anything in a multi mountain space

I've debunked the possibilities of a blitz already, and when I said that I was referring to genjutsu and such

My Conclusion

Madara is much faster. So, he will definitely have the first attack, and be able to set the dance to his way.

His first move was to make clones and hide. Gremmy would kill the clones and hunt Madara

Madara can see Gremmy’s brain and will know that he needs to target the brain. Madara is a strategic genius, and will use every and any thing to his advantage.

This is true

Madara’s sage mode grant him near infinite amount of chakra, so he won’t tire or run out of energy no matter how many big moves he pulls.

That wouldn't matter in the longer run, none of his big moves can do anything here

Madara’s sage mode + perception means that Gremmy can’t hide or sneak on him.

He doesn't have to

Madara has the number advantage 27:9, and each of his clones have the same powers as him.

All the clones will die

Madara’s Susanoo (Even imperfect) is too durable for any of Gremmy’s moves,

Gremmy's moves can ignore durability

so he has to focus on the Madaras inside,

He can do that without worrying about durability either

while making sure he doesn’t get hit from it as even imperfect is still strong enough to destroy his body.

Not stronger than Kenpachi's shikai

I still think this will be the most likely outcome:

The only thing I change in this scenario is Madara won't be directly in the final confrontation by himself, he will have a few clones with him in his PS to make sure Gremmy doesn't target him, and if he does he can substitute himself immediately (E.G. If Gremmy look at the real Madara and his brain starts lighting, Madara will substitute himself with one of the clones).

If those were the only things you changed, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. The fight will start with them in visual range of each other, then Madara's summons clones and dips. Doesn't really change anything, Gremmy's first attack will be to kill Madara

Conclusion

All of Madara's advantages can be countered by Gremmy's hax. His superior speed, strength, durability, and wider range of powers make for an interesting match, and Sophia has debated the full extent of Madara's powers excellently.

Many counters have been given to Gremmy's attacks that ignore durability, like the transformation jutsu (which was a great response), madara's soul remaining even when transmuted (which is true) and other ones. But none of them allow Madara to still win the fight in those states, rather they simply postpone his death and prolong his life. Gremmy can turn Madara's bloodstream into lava, or any internal organ or tissue or bone into something incredibly lethal. Even if Sophia gave a counter to that, the counter would only be so that Madara wouldn't die from it, but you honestly have to be high if you think Madara can fight and still beat someone when his bones are lava.

Gremmy can win if he's bloodlusted and doesn't job, that's all i have to say

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