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Hellespont

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#1  Edited By Hellespont

Round Two: Objections

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To be frank, there is quite a bit you guys missed or failed to touch on here. Thus, once again there is countering to be done and objections to be made. So let's not waste any more time...

I. Psylocke Counters

We can clearly see here that she matches Rogue's every blow and proseeds to stagger her with a blow (Please don't compare Psylocke to Wolverine)

Your missing the point entirely. You attempted to use this as a durability feat. Blocking a punch and staggering an opponent in a fight, doesn't mean that you have equal stats across the board to said opponent. Which is what you attempted to claim in your post. This is fallacious ABC logic.

But either way, even if you can somehow scale to Rogue, your durability would still be severely lacking. Remember, I have shown Firestorm one-shotting Black Adam, a new god, and a JLA buster, all of whom dwarf Rogue in durability.

The first speach bubble states that her powers work at the speed of thought and it moves at the speed of light. So for her concept and execution are effectively one

I suppose I can't argue with that, even though it contradicts how the actual speed of thought works.

However, being able to activate her shields still doesn't support that she can track my teams movements, keep up in combat, land attacks, etc.

Here's a few other speed feats :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

(1) Here she reacts to both Rouge and Colossus (Note Rouge was trying to speed blizt her)

(3) She reacts form instinct not though

(2/4/5) Here she speed bliztes Magneto before he could react (Mags has some crazy reaction Feats)

The feats I posted should be enough to prove that she can react and attack both of you're characters

Did you read these scans before you posted them?

Scan 1: Psylocke doesn't evade an attack from Rogue. She evades an attack from Colossus who doesn't have super-speed. Psy uses telepathy to make Rogue blitz an illusion while she stands still and watches. This isn't a speed feat, it is a telepathy feat, and your telepathy is disabled in this debate.

Here's the portion of your own scans that proves my point:

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Scan 3: Reacting on instinct rather than thought isn't hugely impressive since her instincts only needed to be fast enough to block Sabertooth. Sabertooth is a street-leveler who's speed is abysmal compared to Firestorm or Red Tornado's.

Scans 2, 4, and 5: You have a generous definition of the word blitz if you consider these blitzes. In scan 2, Magneto clearly see's her coming, she just uses acrobatics to land a single shot. In scan 4, she lands an attack without context (it's difficult to read the scans due to the blurriness).

And scan 5 I don't understand why you posted... It debunks your entire statement that Psylocke is too fast for Magneto to react to.... Because image 5 is nothing but Magneto reacting to every one of Psylocke's attacks and casually countering it. Here's panels from your own scans:

Magneto sees Psy coming a sends her flying backwards.
Magneto sees Psy coming a sends her flying backwards.
Magneto reacts to Psy's attack, destroys her sword, and sends her flying backwards.
Magneto reacts to Psy's attack, destroys her sword, and sends her flying backwards.

(1) Here we see Psylocke making a bubble around her head to breathe under water :

You misinterpreted my point. You seem to think I am saying that Red Tornado will suck the air out of your force fields to suffocate you. This is not what I said or was referring to.

I am saying that Red Tornado will use the air inside your force fields to create a personal sized tornado within your shields, KOing you. All you proved with that scan is that your shields do in fact have air in them, which benefits my case.

(2) Psylocke is can control matter and molecules as well :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • She's capable of rebluding a human body only with molecules
  • She can affect her molecular state to turn invisible
  • She can also compress bullets to a denser object

My friend... You don't want to start comparing transmutation feats with Firestorm... He is the superior matter manipulator by many orders of magnitude:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
  • Scan 1: Transmutes Multiplex clones (humans) into water vapor.
  • Scan 2: Removes Killer Frost's powers by rewriting her metahuman genome.
  • Scan 3: Transmutes the entire Eiffel Tower into rose petals.
  • Scan 4: Transmutes a giant rocket into a Rubix Cube.
  • Scan 5: Transmutes every inorganic part of a giant alien cyborg, leaving all the organic parts still alive.
  • Scan 6: Transmutes millions of individual microscopic nanites into water.

Your going to need significantly better feats to claim that your matter manipulation can go head to head with Firestorm's.

(3) I highly doubt that considering that Psylocke blocked attacks form Maker/Merlyn (Both high powered and consider Gods) and she's capable of tanking the weight of a planet (Feats I already showed in my opener)

Psylocke is a martial artist / swordsmen. I highly doubt she is going to sit idly behind her force fields like you insinuate. She is going to want to brawl like she did in your own scan against Rogue. And she will be one-shot.

Even if she does camp out behind her shields, you still suffer from the same problems Invisible Woman does. In fact, even more. You have no feats against getting your shields drained / manipulated by Firestorm. No feats blocking out transmutation. No feats to stop an aerokinetic attack. No feats against phasing. etc. etc.

II. Invisible Woman Counters

- Sue's shields have nothing to do with light (they're invisible that's it) or radiation, she manipulates an unidentified type of energy from Hyperspace so Firestorm transmuting light and radiation can't be used to proof that he can effect Sue's force field directly.

I don't see why being from Hyperspace makes her force field different than regular energy, light, or radiation. However, if you want to get technical about it that's fine. Let's get technical.

In the Marvel universe, Hyperspace is noted to be an extra-dimensional place that can be entered by beings moving at speeds greater than the speed of light or manipulated by energy manipulators of sufficient power. In fact, Marvel's Hyperspace wiki page states that wielders of forces such as the power-cosmic or Mjolnir can tap into Hyperspace.

Considering Firestorm can both exceed the speed of light and is at least on par with heralds and Thor in energy manipulation, there is no reason he couldn't disrupt Invisible Woman's shields. Here is some further evidence of his energy-based prowess:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Absorbs all the energy from a nuclear bomb at ground zero.
  • Scan 2: Is such a proficient energy-manipulator that Parasite (the guy who regularly drains Superman's powers) cannot affect Firestorm at all.
  • Scan 3: Matches the power of Captain Atom's quantum energy.
  • Scan 4: Both Captain Atom and Firestorm absorb as much of the energy from their collision as possible. Firestorm ends up completely fine, whereas Atom absorbs so much energy that he is overloaded and his body explodes, dispersing across space-time.

And possibly most relevantly...

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Firestorm redirects Darkseid's Omega Beams back at him. I have never seen Darkseid's Omega Beams getting affected in this way, yet Firestorm does it on the fly and with ease. What is particularly noteworthy is that the Omega Beams are extra-dimensional energy of incredibly high power..... Just like Sue's shields.

- I posted a scan where Sue expands a force field inside the wall of a Watcher's dome so she'll easily break titanium especially since Orion didn't have leverage to move and break free.

Perhaps she could escape, however seeing as it took Orion (who has comparable strength to Superman) multiple pages to escape, this could at least remove her from the fight momentarily, allowing my team to takeout Psylocke.

- Sue has blocked telekinises and telepathy (both are not physical attacks) with her force field so I don't think Red Tornado can manipulate air past her force field unless you can prove otherwise.

Red's aerokinesis is spiritual in nature. Pretty different than the psionic powers at play with TK and TP. Just because you have resistance to certain non-physical attacks doesn't mean you have resistance to all of them, unless you have specific feats.

I fail to see how this is misleading since I only used this scan to prove that Sue's force field can keep Firestorm inside and prevents him from phasing through the field if she contains him.

Here you are admitting your only scans countering intangibility, are scans that can turn Firestorm tangible once he is already trapped inside your shields. Thus preventing him from escaping once inside.... However, you have given no feats thus far supporting that your shields can keep Firestorm from phasing outside your shields to inside. This admission, in many ways, seals your fate. Without anti-phasing feats from the outside, nothing is stopping Firestorm from phasing into your defenses and one-shotting.

And as far as your containment strategy goes, Firestorm can teleport via worm holes, so he can simply teleport out.

No Caption Provided

This could also serve as yet another tactic against Invisible Woman... Opening a portal to teleport her out of her shields or teleporting my team inside her shields.

- Like I said in my previous post Sue or Psylocke will remove Red Tornado from this battle if they realise that he's a robot since I just assumed each side gets full knowledge on their opposition because if your team doesn't get knowledge on Sue's capabilities they'll get caught ofgaurd by her INVISIBLE attacks.

Here you are just restating arguments I explicitly countered..........

  1. Red Tornado has a healing factor capable of reforming half his body and rebuilding from scrap parts. Your tactics won't put him down.
  2. What??? Why would you assume you have full knowledge on my team? We never specified that and it isn't standard for battle forum debates or CaVs.
  3. My team can see invisible things... I already posted the scans, but you conveniently disregarded them in your post.

Quicksilver was fighting Thing before attempting to attack Sue that's why she was able to think a single sentence before he reaches her (I would post the full scan but we're not allowed to) and the writer clearly states that it's as instinctive as breathing for Sue to create force fields, so it's a damn impressive showing.

Can you post just the first half? It's difficult to just take your word for it in a debate/ analysis setting. Especially considering you have admitted to posting feats without reading the issues they come from.

"Ouch" Lol This scan was merely meant to be a defensive feat for Sue's force field so I am sorry I haven't read the Avengers comic it's from.

But you posted it in the speed section of your post..... And used it to claim you can keep up with the light speed members of my team........... I would recommend reading the issues before posting feats, it would have avoided the numerous contextual issues both you and your teammate have had in this debate.

The comic issue opens with Sue already containing the explosion, so you're kinda right.

So it's not a speed feat... Despite being posted in the speed section of your opener... Cool. Helps my case I guess.

Again I just assumed teams receive full knowledge on their opposition and don't pretend that Sue is a 24/7 sweetheart, she is willing to fight in this battle and can be surprisingly savage at times especially when her life or anyone else's lives are in danger (Like when Thing was evil and attacked her, she almost killed him) and Sue actually knows Vision and not Red Tornado.

Again, I have no clue why you would assume you have full knowledge..... But even if you did, it would actually work against your argument, because Red Tornado is a living soul trapped in an android. He is a hero, a good man, has a family, etc. Thus with full knowledge it is actually much LESS likely that Invisible Woman would open with a kill shot.

I also never insinuated Sue was a "sweetheart", I just stated she has morals. My team also has morals. Thus I don't think either are opting for kill shots right out the gate, like you claim.

If Red Tornado repairs once Sue can rip him apart again and keep his pieces in force fields or Psylocke can telekineticaly prevent him from healing

If Red got ripped apart once, he would use his flight and super speed to get out of your line of sight. Remember he can travel thousands of miles per second, he is too fast for you track at full speed.

I don't see how either of your characters can react to invisible attacks that they're not expecting or if Sue traps them both in force fields she can crush Red Tornado and she'll eventually realise Firestorm doesn't need air to breathe and try and KO him in a different fashion or Psylocke can disrupt his nervous system with her telekinetic weapons once Sue has pinned him down (Sue has tagged Human Torch multiple times and she was able to react to Silver Surfer's attack so she will catch both your characters with her force fields especially since they don't know what to expect from Sue)

Again..... We can see invisible objects and people. I already posted the the scans. I don't know why you are ignoring them...

As for trapping, I already refuted this. Firestorm can teleport himself and Red-T.

It's going to be very hard to break through Sue's force fields alone since they have blocked attacks from Galactus, Celestials, Annihilus, Terrax, ect add Psylocke's force field and it's almost impossible to get through and by the time Sue begins to strain your team will be long KO'ed.

She has blocked single attacks, yes. But a prolonged salvo from multiple opponents, multiple angles, over a long period? I am not sure. Plus if she is straining on the defensive end, that means she isn't focused on offense, which benefits my case.

Either way, this is just a contingency. Firestorm should be able to manipulate Sue's shields.

Again Sue will likely start by trapping both your characters in force fields so tagging them is out of the question and your characters aren't in a constant state of light speed or hyper sonic speed and again Sue doesn't need to tag your characters she'll just simply contain them like she's done to Human Torch and a few other characters before and your team isn't aware of Sue's powers

Again. Teleportation.

And what? She can't create shields around or attack something that is moving so fast she can't track it. I know we won't be going full speed the entire battle, but the point remains that it is on the table. If my team doesn't want to be hit, they won't be hit.

Unless you're scaling all the way to Superman

Scaling to Superman? What?... My only reference to Superman was to give context to how powerful the new gods are when Firestorm stomped one of them.

And Firestorm is considered by many (including myself) to be more powerful than Superman on many fronts. Notaling, but by his solid feats.

I honestly think Red Tornado could be destroyed by Sue who can stomp 100 tonners and Sue can create atom-thin force blades (meaning it cuts through molecules) to KO Red Tornado

I never stated that Red could tank all of her hits or anything of the sort. I stated that when Sue deals significant damage, he has a potent healing factor to recuperate. Though, as previously covered, I doubt she is going to open with atom-cutting blades, because that is horribly out of character.

and like I said Firestorm can easily be KO'ed by Psylocke's tk weapons since they disrupt your nervous system.

Firestorm actually doesn't have a nervous system, in fact, his entire body is just a physical projection of his thoughts and the Firestorm matrix. His appearance, biology, etc. are all malleable and can change with a single thought.

For example, Dr. Martin Stein (D.C. scientist and resident of the Firestorm matrix) has stated that the only reason that Firestorm's biology is partly fire, is because Ronnie thinks it looks cool.

Before I conclude I just want to make sure you're not scaling in anyway because I know how scaling in DC characters eventually leads to Superman pulling a whole solar system or Wonder Woman being faster than Flash's top speed, ect.

Honestly, I have no idea what your on about here... I have only mentioned Superman in passing. Other than that, I have only referenced other characters to provide context.

Ironically the only one "scaling" here is your teammate, who has attempted to use ABC logic to equate Rogue's physical feats to Psylocke.

III. Summary Thus Far

Your plan fails because:

  • It is built on the false pretenses that your team have full knowledge on mine and that your team will act way out of character.
  • Your strategy is contingent on ignoring many scans I have already laid out, such as being able to detect invisibility, Red's healing factor, Firestorm's lack of nervous system or need to breath, etc.

My plan succeeds because:

  • We can bypass your shields via energy manipulation, phasing, teleportation, aerokinesis, etc.
  • We can one-shot your characters.
  • We are too fast to tag, and have the durability to tank hits if we are tagged.

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Your move guys.

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Hellespont

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@marveld2: @scarlet_wiccan: Update, just completed my response, but I am currently skimming through my comics in search of two specific scans. I know they exist but I can't remember the issue numbers for the life of me. Once I locate them (likely tomorrow), i'll post.

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@pharoh_atem: In that case I can go first, just give me a couple hours to finish my other CV responsibility and I can get working on an opener.

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Superman Prime, Zoom Zolomon and Thawne, Thanos, Depowere Tyrant, Majestic, KC Superman, Gog, Amazo, Final form Ultron, Mangog, OF Thor, Magus, Despero, Starbreaker, Flash, WBH......

Need I continue?

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If you give J’onn his Pre-52 feats and make this morals off he can win, but here he loses to H’el.

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@pharoh_atem: Solid, I’ll edit it in.

Would you mind going first? I have another CaV I need to finish formulating a response for before I can get an opener up here.

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#7  Edited By Hellespont

@pharoh_atem It's up, but I have a question I want to ask you about the rules that I can edit in after we decide what to do...

Since this is an in-universe battle, I would think both Hal and Firestorm would be hesitant and not fighting at their best in a battle against a fellow Justice Leaguer. Thus I would propose we specify this is a random encounter, and disqualify any prior knowledge they have on each other, or specify that this is morals off.

Let me know what you think.

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#8  Edited By Hellespont

Challenge-A-Viner

This is a debate between Pharoh_Atem and myself, not a standard battle forum thread. Opinions should be kept to yourself until voting. If you would like to vote (based on the debate and character representation, not your personal opinion), just let me know and you will be tagged. Enjoy!

Firestorm

Represented by Hellespont
Represented by Hellespont

Composite feats between the various Firestorm's (Ronnie, Jason, etc.)

Green Lantern

Represented by Pharoh_Atem
Represented by Pharoh_Atem

Pre-52 Hal Jordan

The Rules

  • Both combatants are morals on and in character.
  • Battle takes place on a barren, indestructible earth w/ no civilians.
  • Fight to the death, knockout, or incapacitation.
  • This is a random encounter. We are acting as if these characters don't know each other/ have never met.

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@pharoh_atem: Aight I’ll get it up tonight / tomorrow morning

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