Dude never in a million years could MCU Daredevil fight and get the better of Wolverine. Nor does he have Mystique's physics defying stats.
Gilad_the_One's forum posts
Strategy Counters:
While the feats you showed for Frank are top-notch, I'd need to see something a decent bit above what you showed in order to make the claim that he can, while carrying a shotgun and desert eagle on top of wearing a Kevlar vest, shoot through the windows of a building he might not be able to go up while in an arguably uncomfortable position. It's a tough ask for anyone.
First off lets deal with this whole "he can't climb/repel down the building" thing. You're screenshot of the outside of the building is from very far away. It's more illogical to assume that this warehouse doesn't have any ventilation of any kind. Have you ever seen the roof of a building (of this style not like say a metal shed roof) be completely flat with nothing on it at all? Frank should have no problem finding something (ventilation pipes/water drains etc) sturdy enough to wrap some paracord around. We've seen him create his own zipline with a crossbow before so I hardly doubt he can't work something up in this scenario.
As for carrying all the gear. That would affect a lesser man. But not Lundgren's Punisher. He's several times been shown to carry 3 guns at once and it never hinders his speed or shooting ability. You brought up the window's not being at ground level. I don't see this being problematic at all. This makes it less likely for Frank to get spotted while he's preparing for the fight. (Lets face it though he isn't getting seen until he wants to considering he stealth attacks Ninja's in their own house.) Frank shoots through those high rise windows and he gets a great aerial view of the battlefield. From that high up he could even shoot at people thinking they are safe behind low cover (like the wood crates in the scene).
You sure have a lot planned for a single hour in which you need to save Martha. First you plan to scout the area, count what you're up against, and plant explosives.
That's not a lot to do. This is something Frank is been doing successfully for 5 years straight (with many more years experience as a police officer/detective). The opening scene of the movie has Frank infiltrating Dino Moretti's house - clawing through his ceiling - and taking out all his security with absolute silence. He wasn't shown to have any intel of the layout of the house. Also in the last fight of the movie - Frank uses the Ninja's own penthouse headquarters against them. Being able to disappear before their eyes and stealth attack them in their own house. This is a guy who can rundown a speeding van:
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It wouldn't take him long at all to navigate the area - especially since he knows exactly how much time he has to work with here.
Now you could argue that Frank will assume they're on the top floor, but then you have to find a way for him to actually get up there.
Umm a ladder? A standard large building requirement. Surely just like ventilation you aren't gonna make me find an exact screenshot to prove that there's a ladder somewhere on this warehouse.
The grenades, however, I will admit are a problem. They can each take out a handful of soldiers, although we see this guy go after an unpinned grenade in order to attempt once more to throw it back.
One. This guy fails to stop the grenade from going off. Two. If you back up just a couple seconds from your timestamp you'll see that it was actually his own grenade which shows a lack of tactics on his part. He could have cooked the grenade so Batman couldn't toss it back or avoid it but he didn't. Should this guy even get a throw off in Frank's direction there's really no reason Frank could toss it back or jump for cover. If the Merc's start tossing explosives they are likely to hurt each other. Now if you pay attention to the gif of Castle's grenade he actually cooks it perfectly (or just has a ridiculously short timer on it) so it explodes as soon as it lands where he wants it too.
No chance to throw this back or stop its detonation.
Unlike the fodder in Punisher, these guys actually had some decent quickfire and rapid draw feats.
I showed the Yakuza Ninja's easily outgunning the Mafia members. (Mafia member's being successful criminals who themselves can beat New York City cops.) Frank has no problem dodging gunfire from the ninja's - it's actually quite astounding that he goes through his entire movie without being shot once (something no other live action version of the Punisher has done).
Yakuza VS Mercenaries:
Frank Castle's Skill:
Frank's physical strength definitely appears to be on the level of DCEU Bruce. Breaking arms isn't above Bruce and whilst he hasn't lifted a person with an arm, I'd say this is probably close. I'd also rate this feat superior to the windshield breaking.
The window breaking is actually pretty bottom line for Frank as that was from being before becoming the Punisher. Castle could potentially be stronger than Bruce based on this scene from the comic where he breaks chains but I'll fully admit it's not the most clear cut feat of all time.
Even without "casual chain breaking" strength. Frank has more than enough power to put down the merc's physically. I know I already showed him ripping out of ropes even after being tortured and also breaking limbs. But he can also snap necks with ease.
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Of course, I'm not attempting to compare Bruce to Punisher but the mercs ability to take Punisher's hits. Given that Bruce has an edge over Frank in striking and the mercs were capable of taking a handful of hits before going down (particularly Asian mercenary), I'd say they can hang in there.
While a handful of the merc's did withstand some of Bruce's attacks it's not enough to say they can take Franks. The hits they took from Bruce where quick attacks like jabs and elbows - which did not utilize his full strength. It's impressive. But Castle being more skilled than Bruce and physically comparable would have more openings to use his full strength. You did already say the Ninja's were more durable and Frank one shots them.
Frank's durability and pain tolerance is otherworldly, though. Whilst I wouldn't call the raw durability on par with DCEU Bats (particularly this and this), the pain tolerance seems to more than make up for it.
Frank withstanding that explosion the size of Dino Moretti's house (which I showed in my first post) that alone should be enough to say he has durability on par with Bruce. But I'll build on his durability anyway. 1. Throughout his movie he only gets touched by fodder this one time and when it happened he tanked it with no sign of even being hurt. A full force jump kick to the face and Frank isn't staggered at all. I'd put this significantly above Bruce taking those punches from behind (second to last merc: aka Bearded Mercenary). 2. He's able to jump from high heights casually. This fall would break a real person's legs in 14 places.
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I'd say his durability is just as good as Batman's it's just untested against superhumans.
His speed, however, seems iffy. Whilst he's certainly meant to be portrayed as an avid aim dodger, certainly on the level of Batman, except I'd call Batman's more impressive. He's literally on the wall moving around with less space and less argument for mobility than Frank, and he's doing it just as effectively.
In this scene Bruce is dodging shotgun fire from a jumpy rookie kid. And in the other he dodges a parademon's energy blaster (which actually seemed to have a rate of fire more comparable to a shotgun than an assault rifle). As impressive as these scenes are - they aren't exactly comparable to dodging two machine guns at the same time.
Now the thing about the mercs is that while they might suck at h2h individually, they can pressure decent fighters when abusing their numbers advantage. Before fighting 4 at a time, DCEU Bruce could drop 4 in rapid 1-vs-1s like they were nothing.
I suppose it's time I start actually showing Lundgren one shotting these fools.
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- He kicks a guy through a metal vent and sends him flying across a hallway - showing comparable skriking power to Batman.
- In that gif I posted earlier of him tanking a kick to the face - He drops his enemy with a single headbutt.
- Frank kicks a guy while upside down - Hardly the most powerful kick he's ever done.
- Frank kicks a guy down immediately after dropping through a skylight window.
Now as impressive as these are. These are against the Yakuza "fodder ninjas". When Frank comes face to face with the two Elite Ninja's at the end of the movie. He still one shots the first attacker by hitting him in the head with his gun.
Especially impressive considering Frank reacted to a stealth attack no problem.
These fodder were more than simply decent shots and overwhelming numbers at close quarters, they were also decent tacticians, waiting to hit Batman at moments when he wasn't paying attention, such as at 3:03, when a merc shoots him in the back of the headtwice in quick succession. That right there would kill Frank, no ifs or buts. Batman's suit allowed him to take the hits, Frank doesn't have that luxury.
Again "wasn't paying attention". Bruce may have only survived this encounter because of his bulletproof/knife resistant suit but Frank doesn't need those luxuries. He has showing of dodging multiple attacks from behind to show that he reacts better than Bruce. Time to finally show you some feats of Frank's great senses.
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While watching the Yakuza ninja's take out the mafia (and setting up that wicked crossbow zipline I showed above) a ninja appears on the roof behind Frank and opens fire with an assault rifle. Frank while laying on the ground is able to react - dodge the bullets - and take the ninja out with his shotgun.
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I showed both these already. A Ninja attacks Frank while he is busy shooting at other ninja's. Yet Frank reacts no problem - doesn't get tagged at all - and guns down the ninja. Grabbing a chain being whipped at you with one hand and not being hurt is an extremely impressive speed and durability feat. While reacting to a thrown bladed chain - blocking it with your gun - twisting it around so hard that the chain busts - is an amazing speed and strength feat.
I just showed above that Frank react's to a stealth attack from the Elite Ninja. So what more do I need to prove? I know you can argue that Frank while looking away in these scenes isn't physically impaired by fighting someone directly in H2H. Based on this you could argue that the mercenaries could still overwhelm him with numbers. Well no. I have just what I need to prove that wrong as well. Remember that gif posted earlier of Frank breaking that guys arm and lifting him up one handed? Here's what happens right after:
Frank while holding and questioning the guy is approached from behind by a Yakuza member wielding a baseball bat. He still senses his attacker and kicks him in the face without even looking. This again being a one shot.
This already should be good enough to say Frank isn't getting attacked from behind like Batman. But to further this point even more - Frank while driving a bus beats a Yakuza member no problem. Not even getting tagged.
Frank isn't getting tagged from behind anywhere near as much or at all like Bruce did.
I'm not using these all as skill feats (though they do double), I'm using them moreso as tactical feats. They were able to pressure Batman through sheer numbers, something they knew they had to do.
And while they would try the same on Frank it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective. Frank having similar physical stats and skills to Bruce means he would beat them all the same. Except Frank's greater senses and better weaponry would have him being tagged far less. Frank is gonna be putting them down a lot faster than Bruce was able to. He'll be using guns even at close range and he uses a knife for melee as well.
This is important because right off the bat (pun intended), I notice a lack of H2H/CQC feats for Punisher. This could prove an issue, given that he only has light protective gear (when compared to Bruce), meaning that any stabs are going to be absolutely fatal. I've likely also established that Bruce > Punisher at the H2H/CQC range, and probably solidly at that.
Punisher doesn't lack H2H feats. I'm kinda flabbergasted that you'd say that considering this is Dolph Lundgren we are talking about. If he is isn't karate kicking people so hard it sounds like thunder is it really Dolph Lundgren?
When this fight does go to melee range Frank will still have no problem implementing weapons into his H2H skill. He is shown to have great draw speed even with an assault rifle as he has shot down a charging ninja:
And he even shows great skill blocking a sword with his commando. Hitting the ninja with his gun and killing him with a random katana he picks up off the ground:
Frank Castle VS Thee Asian Mercenary:
So Frank is good enough to take out the no names mercs right? But what am I gonna show for him that says he can beat the Asian Mercenary? The guy to take ridiculous punishment from Bruce and keep coming back for more. The guy that landed the truly legitimate attack on Bruce when he stabbed him in the shoulder.
Frank has not one showing to say he would beat this guy. He has three. During the ending fight of the movie after gunning down that horde of ninjas and killing a handful in close quarters. He fights the two Elite Ninja's back to back and then immediately after fights Lady Tanaka's Daughter - who was her personal bodyguard. While the Elite Ninja's don't have much for feats of their own. They are shown to be highly respected by the rest of the Yakuza. When they first arrive at the Headquarters that horde of ninja stops what they are doing and bow to them.
The Elite Ninja's were actually tough enough to withstand some of Frank's punches (I already showed his strength feats and him one shotting the lower level but still highly impressive ninjas). So being that the Elite's were actually a physical match for him - Frank had to out skill them to win. After dropping the first Elite by hitting him with the butt of his shotgun (As I showed above) the second Elite makes his move. Using a "Nobu style" chain blade he disarms Frank and swings the blade multiple times at him. Frank despite his large size is able to dodge several swings before taking a slice across the chest. Then after being wounded he still dodges the subsequent attacks. And lands a wicked spin kick:
Normally that single kick would be enough to drop any enemy. But not this guy. Frank's kick was successful enough to give him some distance. He uses this time to grab a bladed staff off the wall and disarms the Elite of his chain blade. The Ninja returns the favor by breaking the staff with an impressive jump kick:
As the fight then goes to H2H Frank is shown as the superior. He puts the pressure on the Ninja as he forces him across the room. The Ninja unable to significantly hurt Castle with his hands resorts to a series of powerful kicks which put Frank on the defensive. Frank takes the hits - stuns the ninja with a quick elbow to the face - grabs another bladed staff - stabs the guy through the chest - and picks him off the ground and pins him to the wall for good measure. (Funny how both Bruce and Frank found it necessary to stab the guy that gave them the most trouble into a wall).
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While Frank is taking a breather after winning this fight. The first Elite gains consciousness and attacks Frank and never lets up. Frank shows massive pain tolerance dealing with the onslaught of this guys kicks/knees/punches. Frank takes everything this guy has to offer and still has the strength to kick this guy into a pile of blades while the ninja thought he was landing the killing blow:
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In the time it took the ninja to swing his sword. Frank was able to get completely off the ground and kick him. Not a bad recovery feat and certainly not a bad feat for his speed either.
You think this was good enough for an ending fight right? Not even. Now it's time to go against the main match. Lady Tanaka's Daughter. She doesn't actually have a name in the movie so I'll just call her D. D attempts to stealth attack Johnny Franco but finds herself actually being surprised attack by Frank when he jumps through a wall to tackle her.
And yet again despite Frank's massive size and despite D's impressive speed/agility and bladed weaponry which she dual wields - D can't even land a hit on Frank. Look how he counters everything she throws at him and even catches her leg mid kick and throws her through a wall.
He's seriously that fast in combat and he's doing this while wounded from his previous fights.
Here's the same scene from the comic:
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Frank is able to surprise attack her all the same. He grabs unto her hands and never lets up. He uses his superior strength to just hang unto her arms and forces her to stab herself when he puts his weight on her. Being that Frank has the same size/strength advantage against the Asian Mercenary this is a viable tactic.
Final Thoughts:
I think you're overrating the time factor to be honest. An hour is a long time - Batman cleared these guys out in just four minutes and he did it without guns/explosives/bladed weaponry.
he's only carrying so much ammo against such highly trained shooters that are going to be using cover to shoot back.
Between two 30 round clips of Commando bullets - 16 shotgun shells - and 18 Desert Eagle bullets. 94 projectiles in total. That's enough to kill 22 guys 4 times over. And this isn't counting his remote explosive and 2 frag grenades both capable of killing multiple people at once. On top of this he's carrying those throwing knives which are reusable and he has the option of picking up a merc's gun if he has to.
Frank he able to accurately run and gun with his shotgun - taking out multiple ninja's in quick succession:
And he has great quick draw with his handgun - As shown in when he saves his partners life in a pre-Punisher scene:
He's even shooting with his left hand here. I see him having no trouble gunning down most of his enemies before the fight ever gets to melee.
The moment he's forced to rush into CQC, I'm arguing he gets wrecked.
And now that you've seen Frank's H2H skill and senses you know he's not gonna get overwhelmed in close quarters. You also know that Frank is better equipped to fight melee than Bruce is as he can use guns at close range and knives as well. And while BvS Bruce was angry and fought violently he still didn't have the pure disdain for criminals that Frank Castle has. Bruce probably killed a handful of people in BvS. Frank killed over 76 people on screen in this movie and that's on top of the statement of him killing 125 Mafia guys prior to the movie.
Frank has the tactics - gear - physicals - and skill to clear out the Mercenary team and he has shown the endurance and pain tolerance to the Asian Mercenary after as well. Next up - Time to save Martha.
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