I want to read it but I don’t
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Buildhare
Worth noting he was hundreds of feet away in the woods, and made this shot with a broken hand...makes me feel as though one of these Punisher's is actually quite a bit better than the other in this arena.
Wow that is really impressive. It's too bad that MCU Frank was shooting long range at unaware target while in no danger himself. I'll outright admit that 89 Punisher doesn't have any long range feat like this. But that's irrelevant when his close range feats blow MCU's out of the water. Ypu showed a far away shot from Frank. But what about when he's not far away? What about when he's under fire? is his accuracy still just as good? Hardly. No its not.
Here Punisher is attacked by two men coming at him in a diner. He manages to shot the first guy in the leg but the second reacts and Punisher can't land a single shot on him despite firing several times at extremely close range. Another instance I can recall is in hotel fight of scene 2.
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At 0:05 into the video a guys sitting still in a stationary car starts firing at Frank. Frank doesn't take him down until 0:45. Frank wastes 30 seconds and 3 full clips of handgun ammo to take down a stationary target. He has all this trouble just because he's under fire. The same is true when he fights non fodder. In his ending fight with Billy Russo - Frank gets shot multiple times both with an assault rifle and later with a handgun - and lands no shots on Billy except for an unintentional ricochet.
Who know why I think more highly of 1989 Punisher? Because he can dodge and still land accurate shots while under stress. Check this out:
Close range. Two ninjas shoot at Frank with Uzi's. Franks able to duck under the gunfire and shoot them instantly. This is a million times better than MCU Frank failing to hit his targets in the diner.
How about this one?
Frank while soaring through the air is able to land a center mass shot on a target no problem.
So yeah I'll concede that MCU Frank has better sniper feats. Because 1989 Frank doesn't even have any long range feats at all. But close range and medium range? 89 Punisher is better all the way. I've shown him make harder shots under worse conditions in less time. Serious lol at MCU Frank taking 30 seconds to hit a guy sitting in car not twenty feet away. Just to reiterate. 89 Punisher can land his shots while on the move. And thats a major factor in a fight.
Here Frank lands shoots on a ninja while travelling down a zipline and firing from the hip.
Then immediately after landing. He draws his shotgun and puts down 5 more Ninjas while never taking a hit himself.
Basically the only showing you have for him so far that MCU Frank shouldn't be able to do is lifting a man to his level one handed,
So you admit that MCU Frank isn't as strong as Dolph Frank? That's all I needed. So now we know that MCU version is neither as stronger or as good a marksman as 89. So Daredevil beating an inferior Punisher has no relevance to this fight against a superior version.
Being unable to retaliate (not sure choosing to get his ass beat is in character for Frank) for basically twenty seconds is hardly indicative of Frank having the advantage,
Frank soaking up 20 seconds of attacks that didn't even phase him. Matt's striking power looks to be that of a five year old child against Frank. Frank then lands like only 3 hits and it floors Matt for a good while as Ive already shown.
...it takes a massive amount of force to crush a human skull, never-mind turning it into mush like Fisk did there.
Oh wow he did this feat with 27 car door slams. Dean Winchester has beheaded a guy with only 3 door slams and no one is arguing that he's superhumanly strong.
But you didn't come here for just Matt smacking some ninjas, how about beating on the Immortal Iron fist himself;
Matt was able to fight and avoid the Black Sky for an extended period, despite being totally gear-less and suffering from an extreme disadvantage in stats;
Oh boy here we go. Defenders feats. Yuck. If you are to genuinely compare Matt vs Danny. There is no way in hell the fight should have gone the way it did in Defenders. A simple comparison can be made here. Season 2 Daredevil Daredevil vs Dogs of Hell Gang. Matt takes numerous hits and gets tag and grabbed multiple times by standard criminal bikers - his armored suit is his saving grace. Season 1 Iron Fist Iron fist elevator scene. Danny fights actually skilled Triad members who are armed with hatchets. Danny is fighting weaponless and is wearing only street clothes. Yet he doesn't get tagged at all. And on top of all this Danny fights way less violent than Matt does. - In the first episode of Defenders IronFist fights the Black Sky which should of shown a superiority to Matt. - My main complete is that no one understands the context that angre enraged Defenders Ironfist isn't as skillful as a calm chi centered Ironfist. So beating a baby having a tantrum isn't as impressive as you want it to be.
Matt fighting the Black Sky is useless. Not only do his feats in his solo show both before and after Defenders make this fight an outlier in skill. But also because Elektra still has feeling for him even in early first appearance zombie mode. Black Sky holds back against Matt. Period.
Season 3 Matt. Who is physically fine after episode 5. That Matt gets his ass kicked by Bullseye and states that he "is one of the toughest fastest fighters he's ever seen" Which is laughable when Defenders had not only Black Sky but the other immortal Fingers of the Hand as well.
The real Daredevil seen in season 2 and 3 of his show. He still struggles with Melvin. Bullseye. and Kingpin. He doesn't outclass either Diggle or Punisher by any means.
RBT
These feats don't just disappear just because other peak humans have been able to hurt him. Of course they can hurt him. Dig isn't going to stand there while another peak human from his verse unloads on him and not blink.
Diggle has been restrained by much physically weaker people then himself. Such as China White. China White Attacks. Or that time Cupid flipped him which seemingly took him out. diggle and thea vs cupid. Punisher is never hurt by a physically inferior person in his movie.
Diggle has tossed a guy through window frame and railings over 10 ft while trying to overcome that guy's own strength
This is a hilariously unimpressive showing. Knocking a guy through a window? That's it? come on.
Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle. - Well, the thing is, Matt can't. But Dig can.
Wow. Seriously impressed. I didn't remember this scene at all.
However, those weren't shot from an AR. That was an UZI, an SMG. Uzi uses 9mm bullets with almost the same muzzle velocity as a Glock.
You're right. I even realized this but forgot to correct it before posting. My bad.
And considering Johnny was downed by much less powerful rounds, I'd assume Dig's bullet will go clean through. Same with the revolver shot.
Im posting the bullet size chart again cause you couldn't have been more wrong. The revolver that shot Johnny Franco was a Smith and Wesson Model 29. It fires .44 Magnum rounds. The second biggest on the chart here. Second only to the .50 Action express fired from Frank's Desert Eagle. You can see here:
That the .44 fires slightly faster, but more importantly has about 3 times the force of a 9mm. Diggles better than average ammo or not. I’m sure Franks vest can stand up to a couple shots.
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Sorry guys. Not quite done yet. My computer just died. I’ll try to finish this later tonight. But for sure after work tomorrow if not.
Yakuza Ninjas
Buildhare stated that he thinks Hand Ninjas are best fodder any of our guys have faced. That couldn't be more wrong. Hand Ninja are lacking in feats. A one second clip of 1 ninja beating 2 hospital security guards isn't impressive. Especially when immediately after we have a scene where a nurse pushes a ninja out of a window. Yakuza Ninjas actually were extremely well established for only being fodder in a 90 minute movie.
Durability: One guy doesn't even flinch when Tommy Franco breaks a chair across his back. Another guy gets knocked into a speeding bus and gets up ready to fight immediately.
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Melee: (1 and 2) Ninja's easily beat Mafia members in combat. (3) Ninja stealth stabs a guy through a windshield.
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Thrown Weapons: Ninja's are able to take out mafia guys with a variety of throwing weapons.
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Guns: Ninja's out gun Mafia on multiple occasions.
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- A restaurant full of undercover Yakuza members gets up and shoots the Mafia's guards before anyone of them could retaliate.
- One ninja throws a knife into a mans back which gets the attention of the others they turn around then the rest of the ninjas on the boat open fire on them while they are distracted.
- A Mafia guy already has his gun drawn and aimed at a Ninja and the ninja is able to get up and fire some weird air powered dart and land a nasty headshot.
- Ninja makes a long range handgun shot while on a movie boat shooting a guy on a moving boat.
These Ninjas are incredibly dangerous and tough. Yakuza have range superiority over Hand Ninjas. They use guns and a large variety of throwing blades. Hand Ninja's typically have no range only a few out of the dozens seen carried a bow. For close range Yakuza was shown more variety as well. Swords. Chains. and Sai. Hand ninjas only used swords. I don't remember any durability feat for the Hand either - certainly none as good as the bus feat I posted above. Yakuza is bigger threat yet Punisher kills them effortlessly by the dozens.
The Punisher
So in an effort to show what needs to be shown and to be as direct as possible I'll go over your guys' summaries first.
RBT - His 'heat vision' would allow him to be aware of his opponent's location at all the times. Most importantly, it will allow him to get a drop on Frank and avoid being snuck up on by Matt, who would be able to do it otherwise.
BH - Superhuman senses are super useful here, he'll quickly know exactly where both the Punisher and Spartan are from across the store and can pick and choose his fights rather than being instantly drawn out.
Obviously sighting your opponent first is a massive advantage. Frank Castle doesn't have a radar sense nor thermal imaging goggles. What he does have is incredibly honed natural senses. He lives in dark sewers and he's impossible to sneak up on. Throughout the movie people try to sneak up on him and/or attack him from behind and not once have they ever succeeded.
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A ninja appears on the roof behind Frank and opens fire with an assault rifle. Frank while laying on the ground is able to react - dodge the bullets - and take the ninja out with his shotgun.
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A ninja attacks Frank while he is busy shooting at other ninja's. Again Frank reacts no problem - doesn't get tagged at all - and guns down the ninja. There's some slight difference here so I'll go over both. Comic - Frank reacts to a thrown bladed chain (Nobu style) - he blocks it with his shotgun - twists around and shoots it causing it to break then follows up with a shot to the ninja. Movie - Frank reacts to a chain being whipped at him - easily catches it midair and with one hand fires his shotgun sending the ninja flying. Both of these are insane speed feats especially considering this guy tries to attack Frank while he's busy. The movie version is even more so impressive cause of the speed and durability to just catch a chain in midair.
Frank's senses are just as good or better than his opponents where it counts. Obviously Frank can't pull a Daredevil and sense someone's keys in their coat pocket or hear heartbeats or hell somehow hear what the battery life of someones phone is or some shit like that. But sensing a human even a stealthy one in a combat or even non combat situation? Frank's got that down. He has nothing to worry about here.
A comparison I can make through is that Matt failed to dodge an arrow from behind while unaware of the shooter. - Marvel's Daredevil: Apartment Fight Scene - YouTube
Yet as I showed above Frank dodged assault rifle fire in the same situation while lying down and took his attacker out no problem.
RBT - Dig is the most physically dominant person here.
BH - Neither of these guys are really bringing anything new to the table. I'll wait for more on Spartan but as it stands the Devil has beaten better gunmen, fought more physically powerful foes and won against greater odds.
Diggle is simply not strongest or most durable person here. He's been hurt and knocked out by people weaker them himself several times throughout the shows history. Punisher on the other hand is only ever hurt by "The 2 Elites" who are physically on his level and the top tier of skill in the Yakuza. Bottom line is if you're weaker than Frank Castle you can't even make him flinch.
Daredevil has not beaten a better gunman or fought anyone stronger than this version of Castle before or won against greater odds. Simply put all of that is false. MCU Frank I love him but man he doesn't even compare. MCU Frank shot Daredevil in the head no problem if anything that just solidified that Matt can't dodge either Diggle or Castle forever. And from the penetration feats shown from Diggle's armor piercing bullets and the fact that Frank uses a Desert Eagle as his sidearm means that shot would have blown completely through Matt's head. Moving on Matt has immense struggle with Wilson Fisk who is slower than Castle and isn't even a trained fighter. I can't stress that enough Fisk is skill less and Matt still has a hard time putting him down. Greator odds? When has Daredevil ever stormed a Yakuza penthouse with 30+ Ninjas - 2 Elites - 1 Uber Elite - and finally 1 Top Tier Mob Boss. Punisher did all of this then went on to beat Johnny Franco while weakened. And I know I am not the one arguing for Diggle but there's an impressive showing of him storming his way through a Ghost army and I'm sure RBT will get to. I actually think "greater odds" are that Matt comes dead last in this category. Not to lowball but 24 bikers is not impressive when compared to the Yakuza
Ninja.
Franks Physical Stats
I'll get this out of the way now so you guys know just what you are up against.
Strength: I already showed Frank casually breaking a guys arm and dead lifting his entire body with only one hand. Neither Diggle or Matt could accomplish this. Sure can they fling a guy around with a judo throw using their own or their opponent's momentum? Absolutely they do it all the time. But pure raw strength they can't match Frank Castle in any way. More so adding the moral debate into his strength showings. Here Frank effortlessly breaks a guys neck. Also Frank breaking a metal lock easy.
Speed: I did show Frank dodging 2 assault rifles at once which is as good as any feat accomplished by his opponents - or even better considering Frank is never tagged with gunfire in his movie. While Matt has been shot with bullets and arrows on at least one occasion each. Diggle has been shot with bullets multiple times. He's the slowest guy here by a mile. So I've already covered Frank's reaction time with bullet avoiding feats. And Ive already covered his combat speed with that wicked instant chain grab in midair. So what about a new speed feat in a new category? Pure raw speed. Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle. Sure they can run on a rooftop and parkour it across a street to cut it off or some shit but never could they just straight line chase it down like Frank does below.
Durability: Below this section I will show that Frank has the best armor here as it can tank assault rifle fire. But right now I'll showcase Castle's natural durability. Here he stands in a mansion that explodes. He set the charges himself so he's aware of what ridiculous level of explosive durability he possesses. This showing alone makes Diggle's grenade and bomb feat look wimpy. And Matt is even less tough than Diggle.
This doubles as a speed feat as he must have left the house in the half second before they second much larger explosion went off.
BH - Matt's bringing a lot of skill to this fight, he's without peer as a martial artist in this encounter and anyone forced into an a melee with him is in serious trouble.
RBT - In cqc, Dig has a pretty chunky advantage over Matt in stats, which would allow him to outlast Matt. And while the stats advantage over Frank isn't nearly as wide, him being more skilled than Frank would edge it in his favour as well.
What makes Matt so skilled? A facebook video saying he knows 10 martial arts? Big deal. He knew those 10 martial arts back in season 1 and that didn't stop him from having trouble with Raze or Healy or Melvin or Fisk all people who don't have training in 10 martial arts. The latter 2 have no training to speak of If I remember right. True skill comes from experience and Frank's non stop war on crime has turned him into a terminator. He doesn't have a day job or friends or a girlfriend or wife or kids like Murdock and Diggle. Frank is all about his war and it has made him so much more efficient than either of his opponents. He doesn't have low showings. Period.
RBT - Dig's bullet has enough stopping power to make it through either of his opponent's suit.
I agree that it can go through Matt's armor but Frank's armor maybe not. While Frank is never shot in the movie. Johnny Franco is the one who gave Frank his armor and Franco tanks multiple assault rifle bullets to the chest at close range. He's knocked down but unharmed and gets up immediately surprising his attackers as he guns them down. - 1:14:20 THE PUNISHER
He later gets shot point blank with a revolver and it doesn't penetrate. It doesn't even knock him down.
RBT - Because he will be aware of his opponents' location at all times, he can always try and get them to engage each other while taking on the victor. Or third party them.
I think all of these characters senses are too great for any of the others to get the drop on them. This is gonna be a direct fight and its gonna get that way fast. From there the edge goes to Punisher cause of his numerous weapons better physicals and looser morals.
BH - No one really has an answer for his agility and evasive fighting style.
Punisher has taken down Lady Tanaka's daughter with little issue and she was all about agility. On top of this she was armed with a seemingly limitless supply of bladed weapons and even knives that popped off her shoes. Yet Frank took her down and absolutely embarrassed her while doing so.
She gets the drop on Johnny Franco:
Note Frank stealth attacks someone in the middle of a stealth attack. Pretty Badass. He capitalized on his superior physicals and tackled her through a wall. When the fight engaged she couldn't even touch him even when she dual wielded blades she couldn't land a single attack. Frank eventually just catches her kick and tosses her through another wall. She had agility on Frank and bladed weaponry and it meant nothing. Matt's batons will be avoided just as easily.
More Counters:
BH - He's also fought fighters extremely similar to his opponents here more than once, with the most comparable obviously being his version of Frank Castle; Even in their first encounter, long before his prime, Daredevil was capable of quickly overwhelming him in H2H, as well as exhibiting how his skill and agility work in unison to keep his more grounded enemies on the back foot.
Oof. Is the first response that comes to mind. MCU Castle is not as skilled as 1989 Castle nor does he have his physical stats. Remember how Frank was outclassed by the Russian in the gym fight. Physically that Russian was closer to 89 Punisher but probably still lacking. That Russian wasn't a skilled black belt award winning detective either. That said inferior MCU Castle absolutely embarrassed Matt in their first fight. Im actually surprised you even wanted to post it. Here it is again for readers. The Punisher - first appearance hospital - YouTube. Matt gets the drop on Frank with a flying knee to the face which Frank seems totally fine after. Matt then lands way way more hits but the hits are nearly or completely ineffective against Frank. Matt even lands a wicked jump kick which knocks Frank down but he gets up right away before Matt can even follow up his attack. This just makes Frank angry right at 2:50 Frank finally retaliates - in only 10 seconds and a handful of punches Frank knocks Matt on his ass. Frank then just walks away. He won is fight. Could have ended Daredevil for good if he even wanted too. It takes Matt 23 seconds to get off the ground and attack Frank again who just wants to leave. The fight then ends with Matt standing perfectly still while his opponent draws a gun and shoots him in the head. All around a terrible showing for Matt and if nothing else proves he can't beat a more skilled more physically imposing more weapons armed version of the character.
"But in later fights Daredevil does beat Frank easy". I for one don't take that fight in front of the police firing squad seriously. It's worse choregraphed and they simple fact that a 5 man team of snipers can't shoot two guys duking it out paying them no attention. It just makes everyone involved look bad. But what about the boat fight? Frank and Matt are friends at that point. Frank isn't fighting him with a killer instinct anymore. It's not valid.
BH - His only other piece of gear is his suit, which has stood up against direct sword strikes and small arms fire, should definitely come in handy here.
I will say Matt's armor can stop a slicing attack from a Hand ninja's katana and I believe it stops a slice to the back during a fight with Murakami in Defenders. That said. It's untested against a piercing attack. And that's not good when Frank Castle has a feat of him stabbing through armor. Assault rifle/revolver proof armor at that.
RBT - And Dig was able to overpower Oliver when he was under the influence of Vertigo.
I don't see how this is "overpowering". Dig is literally on top of him with the advantage and only holds him until Ollie can relax. It's not like he forced him down and made him submit or something.
RBT - The stopping power of bullets from his gun is far higher than those of your regular guns. His gun is capable of shooting through a Ghost's armor. What makes this impressive is the fact that Ghost's armor is completely impervious to a regular handgun. This also speaks about Dig's own suit, because his suit completely stopped a bullet from his own gun from literal point blank. The punching power behind the bullet was still able to knock Dig out for a few seconds, but the bullet didn't pierce his suit.
That's a solid showing and I am impressed. But the difference in size of Diggle's gun and Frank's guns can't go unsaid. It's massive.
The first bullet on the left. That's what Frank fires from his Desert Eagle. The second bullet from the right. Thats the 9mm that Diggle fires. Diggle might as well be lady. Frank's bullet is an instant kill. Here's a good showing of its stopping power.
Sends a guy's dead body flying smashing apart a large wooden crate. This also doubles as a good accuracy feat considering the conditions of the shot. Frank just jumped off a moving car did a roll and fired right away.
Now let's make this gap even worse.
Again the 9mm is what Diggle uses the 5.56 is what fires from Frank's Colt Commando assault rifle. That too will have no problem penetrating either Matt or Diggle's armor.
Summary:
- You guys need to prove you can counter Frank's imposing physicals.
- You guys need to prove that they can somehow avoid every bullet shot at them cause their armor damn well isn't doing anything.
I know I have held off on Frank's better skill feats. With the exception that I showed Frank easily countering someone with better agility then himself nullifying Matt's only edge. More skill feats are coming in my next post. I'll build up Frank's opponents. Lowest level Yakuza Ninjas. The 2 Elite Ninjas - which are tanks so that will be relevant for countering Diggle's durability. And finally Lady Tanaka's Daughter who was the uber elite and is a perfect representation of why Matt isn't even a threat to Frank.
The Punisher
Trained by and a partner to New York City detective - Jake Berkowitz - Frank Castle became a highly honored police detective. One day his family was murdered and he was thought dead. Frank then began his 5 year killing spree which included over 125 recorded Mafia members. He single handedly weakened the mob so badly that the Yakuza moved in and took over.
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Castle is shown to be a black belt in an unstated martial art. It can be assumed to be Dolph Lundgren's own Kyokushin Karate - as this is also the primary martial art of all stunt choreographers that worked on this film. Also shown above is that Frank has awards for both Patrolman and Detective of the Year.
Physicals:
A solid advantage Frank has in this fight is his physical stats. Neither Matt or Diggle can match his natural strength or durability. He's possibly equal to Daredevil in speed but could also be faster once he get to breaking down feats. Only edge I don't think he holds is agility which obviously goes to Matt. But despite his massive size Frank is still shown to be incredibly agile.
Strength:
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- After withstanding torture he is able to just flex - bust out of ropes - steal two guys guns and shoot them both the same time.
- Breaks a guys arm with his knee with no difficulty. Then lifts him with one hand.
Speed:
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- These are the same scenes from the movie and the comic adaption - He's able to dodge automatic gunfire from multiple shooters at the same time.
Durability/Pain Tolerance:
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- Look at these from right to left. Frank withstands torture on a rack and Lady Tanaka complements his pain tolerance.
Equipment:
It should come to you at no surprise that the Punisher packs a lot of weaponry. Unlike Matt who arms himself with only 2 sticks connected with a string or Diggle who from what I recall only uses a handgun or tranquilizer gun should RBT choose to use that instead - Frank is actually smart and uses lethal weapons. Frank isn't over reliant on his weapons mind you - he's incredibly skilled in melee as I will eventually show - but for now my opponents have to prove they can even get past his gear.
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- (2) Colt Commando: Fully automatic assault rifle. Frank uses this gun to clear out a room full of ninjas.
- (4) Franchi Spas-12: Semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Frank uses it too take down Yakuza Ninja's at long range.
- (3) Desert Eagle: 50 caliber handgun. This is an absolute cannon. The idiot on the receiving end of this bad boy is awarded instant death and his corpse is send flying with enough for to bust apart a large wooden crate.
- (1) Skull Knife: Frank's go to for stealth and melee. He carries a handful of these and can even throw them with Bullseye level precision and does so numerous times throughout the movie.
Even more Frank carries grenades - which he can expertly time to blow up exactly when they reach their target.
Marksmanship:
So sure Castle might carry a lot of firearms but can he actually hit his opponents? Of course he can. This will be very brief of here's some great shots he's pulled off:
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- In a flashback scene to before he was the Punisher he saves his partners life with a quick draw shot. Even better is that he is shooting with his left his non dominant hand.
- Look at the last gif first then come back to this one. Immediately after gunning down a roomful of ninjas. Frank and Johnny are having a brief conversion when another ninjas tries to charge them. Frank is able to take aim and fire a lethal shot in no time at all.
- Punisher and Johnny Franco instantly gun down an entire roomful of ninjas with no effort at all. Guns beat karate and Frank has nothing to fear from the man without fear.
As I mentioned above his skill with projectiles is not limited to just firearms. Frank can throw his skull knives into his enemies throats casually and constantly:
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- Middle one is a chest wound but you get the idea. Matt and Diggle wear armor and helmets but guess what? Knife to the throat bitches.
Conclusion:
The Punisher holds almost every edge in this match and I'll prove it. He's far stronger than either Matt or Dig -stronger than the Kingpin even. His guns are powerful enough to penetrate either of the other guy's armor. I didn't mention it above but Frank wears a kevlar vest with the classic Punisher skull on it as well. His gear and his willingness to use it to its fullest can not be understated. He's the only one here who actually tries to kill his opponents in character. And as the OP says they have no knowledge of each other so he won't hold back against the superheroes.
Daredevil/Matt Murdock (@Deutschkurzhaar)
VS
The Punisher/Frank Castle (@AllStarSuperman)
Rules:
- Daredevil - Standard Gear.
- Frank Castle - Gear TBD.
- Location: Hell's Kitchen Streets - Opponents Start 50 Feet Away.
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