G1d3on

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G1d3on

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@g1d3on said:
@darthant66 said:

Ending healthy discussion by hiding behind outdated quotes is pathetic.

Yeah, don't let facts get in the way of debates. You tell 'em!

Daddy.

My son. Your asinine sentiments notwithstanding, we definitely agree that the Vjun/Sidious/storm bullshit is nothing more likely symbolic imagery than literal cause-and-effect.

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G1d3on

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Ending healthy discussion by hiding behind outdated quotes is pathetic.

Yeah, don't let facts get in the way of debates. You tell 'em!

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G1d3on

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@wollfmyth209 said:

@g1d3on: Well obviously, but you can't just go into a thread and say: BOOM! Sidious is universal! considering just how much a lot of people on Vine put stock into the "feats only no statements or logic plz" argument. Plus I don't think Palpatine himself is on the universal side of things. At best, he's around multi-planetary, IMHO.

And I would put Waru as more of a threat than Palpatine, given how it mind-raped and nearly destroyed 14 ABY Luke.

Whether or not other people agree with the quote is irrelevant to me. There are lots of quotes I openly loathe but facts don't change simply because we hate them. I'd say the reborn Emperor is as powerful as someone can get who isn't Anakin/Luke Skywalker, a Mortis Anchorite, or Abeloth. More powerful certainly than the likes of Valkorion or lesser Sith.

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#5  Edited By G1d3on

@zapan871: not necessarily, though I'd say he's at least an existential threat moreso than any BUT the Mortis Anchorites and Abeloth.

@wollfmyth209: I'd say "galaxy" is a conservative estimate, since space would include infinitely more than just the Star Wars Galaxy.

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@shootingnova:

The Muur Talisman doesn't really act as a supplement to your power. From what I can recall, the only time you can draw upon it without being consumed is to control/create Rakghouls. To actively tap into Muur's combative power, you literally have to give control of your body over to him. Still, Vader might not be aware of that, so your point makes sense.

Otherwise no scrub like Celeste friggin' Morne would have driven him to retreat.

Interesting. Which source says that? I only recall the RotJ novel mentioning that he was at the peak of his power, but I don't recall it mentioning just by how much of a margin he actually improved. That said, just how far above Muur do you think Prime Vader would be, then?

No source, just the way I consider things. Vader was fresh off the rack in that comic, like RODV. The guy who's supposedly only 20% of the Emperor {not sure how much stock one does or should put into that} at his peak doesn't strike me as a guy who would lose to a Sith shade. Muur's powerful, don't get me wrong, but I personally envision prime!Vader to be better than prime!Muur, for however slim a margin.

But that's jmo.

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@shootingnova said:

Why exactly would you be addicted to power when you already possess greater power? It's Sith nature to be addicted to greater power. That, combined with the artwork which depicts Vader kneeling to Muur, I take as a rather explicit message on Muur's power in relation to Vader's.

It's Sith nature to be addicted to power in general. Vader + Muur > Vader alone. Again, even if I were to concede that the explicit implication is Muur > Vader, nowhere does it mean that Muur is >>> Vader, let alone that Muur is >>> peak!Vader. That's not inference; that's naked speculation.

With respects to Force Power, how much do you believe Vader improved by the time he reached RotJ?

Leaps and bounds.

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@shootingnova said:

@g1d3on: There was practically only one user of the Talisman in history and that was Celeste Morne, who wasn't subjugated after about one and half centuries.

I didn't say anywhere that there was parity to Sidious. What I'm saying is - the Talisman represents Muur's power. If Vader was equally or more powerful, there really wouldn't be any chance of the Talisman (and by proxy, Muur) becoming his master. Vader wouldn't need to have any fear of that being the case unless Muur was obviously more powerful than him.

It certainly affected her mind when she drew on its power. For all we know, Vader's musing about trading one Master for another could be purple prose for addiction to the talisman's power. People use that expression all the time in the real world in regards to all manner of addictive substances.

I didn't say Vader was "equally or more powerful" than Muur at the time he encountered the talisman. All I said is that even if I were to magnanimously concede your speculation that it definitely means Vader thought Muur > him, it refers to a Vader who is nowhere near his peak, so why should I think that peak!Vader is < Muur and therefore Kun?

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@shootingnova said:

@g1d3on: That's a rather understated approach. It doesn't suggest just superiority - it suggests significant superiority. At the time, Vader was aware of how powerful Sidious was. The fact that he regarded Muur as comparable to Sidious (especially in comparison to him) suggests that Muur would be more powerful than Vader even at his peak, unless Prime Vader can be reasonably compared to Sidious. That aside, Kun is more powerful than Muur to begin with. I think there's enough of a gap here to suggest that Kun > Vader.

The only potentially inaccurate part there would be Vader thinking that his strength, combined with Muur's, would be enough to take Palpatine down. We can't prove that. But I don't think it's fair to undermine Vader's comparison of Muur to himself and Sidious, given that Vader is acutely aware of both his own power and Sidious', as well as how his power stands in comparison to Sidious. And he isn't known for his humility, either. I'm still not seeing why Vader's comparison is so unreliable.

...what?

All Vader does is muse that, even if he and Muur team up and gank Sheev successfully, he may "trade one Master for another." That's it. It doesn't imply parity with Sidious or significant superiority over Vader. The only thing it implies is that Vader might be enthralled by an eldritch talisman that has a history of subjugating its users.

What you're suggesting isn't inference, it's broad speculation.

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@shootingnova said:

@g1d3on: This:

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun]was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Vader's career being in its infancy does little to change the comparison. Somebody who could've been another Sidious to him at that point in time would still be above him at the peak of his power. Perhaps Vader's comparison between Muur and Sidious is idle, but I think it's a pretty clear message that Vader was admitting inferiority to Muur there. To go so so far as to compare him to Sidious suggests that Vader was acutely aware of the fact that Muur transcended him in power and could've been his master.

Ah. I'm familiar with that quote.

Sure it does. In fact, it changes the comparison significantly. Even if we were to take the insinuation at face value, at best it implies superiority over a Vader who was nowhere near his peak.