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#1 frozen  Moderator

@pedrolopesmateus:

I actually agree he doesn’t scale. And thank god, I spent months arguing GI is locked below TPM Maul. Now at least those scales are still safe.

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#3  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

I mean…it was pretty long. Am I suppose to read and respond to every point?

You don’t have to respond to it all… but you’re saying stuff that I’ve thoroughly addressed. Such as Vader vs Jedi Anakin or Vader vs Obi Wan. You should read it because it goes over everything.

It’s a great statement. How much weight is there for creator statements? Are they absolute? Obi Wan is sloppy at the beginning fight of Kenobi. He leans in too far, he isn’t balanced, and he looks nothing like his fight with Anakin in Revenge

It is better to take creator statements over eyeballing choreograph and making our own assumptions. Creator statements affirm the truth of the matter. Obi Wan is back to full power at the start of the fight and has minimal amounts of rustiness. The choreography not being up to standard doesn’t mean he’s nowhere near as good as before. Choreography isn’t really an argument.

How much weight do the statements have versus what’s on screen?

Statements clarify the true intent. Opposed to fans making up what they think.

Obi Wan is attacking, which is opposite of his mastered form, and opposite of what he did on Mustafar.

Obi Wan choosing to fight offensively was very much intentional on his part. His mindset was completely different and he baited Vader by initially adopting the form III Soresu stance, but then shifting to form IV Ataru, which surprised him.

I recognise you don’t want me to spam you with an essay, so I suggest you read the blog I wrote which specifically addressed why Obi Wan fought differently.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/explaining-pre-pit-obi-wan-vs-vader-and-how-it-com-2332849/

So him pushing Vader back is significant.

Addressed on the link above.

The guy hasn’t picked up a lightsaber in a decade, right?

Again, he’s barely rusty. Repeatedly stated by choreographers and others.

A New Hope Ben is prime in sabers? I could see him being prime in Force power, but sabers is saying a lot.

He is stated better in the Obi Wan blu ray and scales above his amped self. He is prime in sabers AND force power. See below.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ben-kenobi-confirmed-as-prime-obi-wan-steelbook-2340430/

He can barely move in his fight against Vader.

Again, using old choreography isn’t a viable metric.

I guess my question is what’s more important: What the creators say or what they show

Creators clarifying the true intent will always be > subjective interpretations of choreography.

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#4 frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

what point are you disagreeing with? I said Vader was too powerful for Cere. She fought a good fight against a stronger opponent.

He was injured by the archives. That’s why did well. Otherwise, a Vader who isn’t serious per devs was smacking her around.

I listed Vader’s wins and losses. Given the fights, there is nothing that suggests that he is a better duelist than Anakin,

No? I literally just gave you a very thorough and detailed analysis as to why he’s much better than Anakin. I cited sources too. Your response is to just ignore it because it’s too long?

The makers of Obi Wan series repeatedly say he’s in his prime and scales to/above Knightfall Vader. Therefore he is >> Jedi Anakin. “Jedi Anakin” barely has any hype in Disney. He isn’t Yoda tier.

especially since he lost to Kenobi in sabers this time where Anakin was pushing Obi Wan back The entire time.

No, he lost to an amped Obi Wan. Prior to that, he’s stated to be equally matched with Kenobi in sabers.

A New Hope Ben is also stated to be his prime iteration, and Vader was winning against him. A New Hope Obi Wan slaps Knightfall Vader.

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#5  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@poedameronsbutt: Well, it was too much for me. The first point wasn’t even “debunked.”

What part do you disagree with? I’ll break it down:

  • Prior to the archives falling on him, the devs regard Vader as “testing Cere” and not being serious. Yet he’s able to smack her around one handed and casually force blasts her with gestures
  • Once the archives fall on him, “that’s when he gets serious”. Meaning prior to that, he wasn’t serious
  • In the context of this injured Vader, she did well

Moreover, why is Cere relevant here? She has no link to Dooku. Cere becomes stronger leading into JS and has “let go of her fear”. This is akin to me saying Dooku isn’t an elite duelist because he lost to Quinlan Vos.

The difference here is that Vader was actually much above Cere. Whereas Dooku actually lost to Vos.

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#6 frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977: The overwhelming amount of text and images that certain individuals reply with Blows me everytime. The point can always be summed up within far less lol. it’s just obnoxious.

I linked him a thread which directly addressed a lot of the points he then went on to make. That’s why I felt the need to post that.

@frozen: I’m not really sure what to do with the wall of text and images you just sent me. Is this how Star Wars debates go?

You disagreed with my first point, but I’m not sure which point you disagreed with based on your response.

Did Cere not fight well? Was Vader not ultimately too strong? Did she not almost kill him?

Those are the three points I made in regards to the fight. Which part do you disagree with?

You can read over my points I guess. Cere was losing badly to Vader prior to the archives. Per devs, Vader wasn’t going fully serious. Post archives he’s injured, hence the discrepancy in performance. So we have pre archives Vader slamming her and post doing a lot worse.

Besides I’m not sure why we are acting like the Cere fight means anything here? Dooku lost to Quinlan Vos. Vader was beating Cere until the archives fell.

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#7  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@warstars1977:

Literally all of this has been debunked before… lol

Vader beats Cere - 9BBY - she fights well, but Vader is ultimately too strong, though she almost kills him.

Incorrect. Prior to the archives falling on him, Vader was force blasting her with casual gestures and smacking her around.

The devs re-affirm that he only gets serious after the archives: “and that’s when he gets serious”. Once they drop on him, he’s injured and performs worse

https://streamable.com/ahtue0

“It was a very clear decision from the start for him to only be using one hand with his lightsaber, where he’s kind of like, testing Cere out and he’s not sure and he’s not sure yet if he needs to take her seriously. And then you see after the archives come down on him, it’s two hands all the way after that. That’s when he gets serious”

Vader beats Obi Wan - 0BBY - Old ass Obi wan is beaten in an embarrassingly terrible fight that poses a question of whether or not either were in (or close to) their prime.

ANH Obi Wan in his prime. He scales above the post pit amped Kenobi and recent blu ray doubles down on ANH Ben being the prime iteration.

Given the fights we have to work with, I don’t see anything that puts Ahsoka on Dooku’s level. Obi Wan and Dooku fought closely in sabers in ROTS. Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi Wan beat Anakin, but the context of those fights (the taunting by Dooku and Obi WAN’s familiarity with Anakin, and the “High Ground”), means that A holding their own against B means B is greater than C doesn’t work.

Kenobi didn’t posses a saber skill on Mustafar or in OWK that he didn’t have on the IH against Dooku. Him beating Vader in sabers is bad for Vader, not good for Obi Wan.

Incorrect. Mustafar Obi Wan is above IH Obi Wan by a large margin, and matched with KFV. Mustafar Kenobi = Knightfall Vader, so Dooku is bound. It goes beyond stylistic matchup when Kenobi matches KFV in the force, in saberlocks and other physical struggles. Familiarity works both ways.

OWK Vader scales to or above KFV as a duelist. So he is locked above someone who is >> Dooku

Per Deborah Chow, he’s “in his prime” (up until that point in the timeline)

“It is essentially between these two huge iconic characters, that are in many ways equally matched and we have never kinda seen them in their prime meeting up like this”

There are more assertions of this:

Deborah wanted to have really visceral sense, when he’s walking down the street kind of killing people, she’s like “We’ve never really seen this side of Vader. He’s in his prime. He’s super angry, he’s just full of rage.”

Taking from my blog, Hayden equates Mustafar Vader and OWK Vader as being more or less the same here. He says “as it was explained to me” prior to saying Mustafar Vader > Jedi Anakin. And then goes on to equate MFV with OWK Vader, seemingly making no real distinction. In fact, he says that Vader is “more powerful now”:

Interviewer: How does a Jedi’s fighting style change when he goes to the dark side? Are the fighting styles different?

Hayden: Yeah I think they are a little different. As it was explained to me, when he goes to the dark side, his fighting skills go up a little bit. And he becomes a little bit more powerful. There was a decent amount of training on this one. And I got to work with the stunt team and learning some of the lightsaber fights and that’s always just a lot of fun. But yeah I mean yeah some good fights in this one

Interviewer: What was like the most surprising thing to find out about Darth Vader’s lightsaber style?

Hayden: Well um there is a lot that we already know about it and um we‘re certainly trying to keep things... relatively consistent, but this is Vader at a different point in his life and he’s... you know... more powerful now... more driven now and uhm and I think that comes through in his fighting style too. He’s very aggressive.

The pre pit duel is described as being a “continuation of” Mustafar, with the two in a “skill based stalemate”:

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Insider only serves to reinforce what Deb says:

Landing on the rocky surface of a barren moon, Obi-Wan is waiting for Vader when he arrives in his shuttle, and a bitter lightsaber duel begins. Their powers equally matched, each gains the upper hand until Vader leaves Obi-Wan for dead after burying him under tons of rock. Fighting not to be crushed, Kenobi focuses on Luke and Leia, and the memories give him the strength to escape and overpower Vader.

It is important to remind ourselves that Mustafar Kenobi is more skilled than Mustafar Vader, per many sources:

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Mustafar Anakin is more skilled than Sidious, as Sidious himself admits in the junior novel that MFV’s skills surpass any sith before him. Which includes Sidious himself

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The pre pit Kenobi in OWK is “back at his full powers again” and “in his prime” combatively. We know that Ewan has said he’s rusty and a bit older:

The actual fight itself was unbelievably well-designed and choreographed by [Jonathan Eusebio], our fight arranger. Beautifully, beautifully realized… So carefully thought about and he’d studied all the fights we’d done in the prequels and took Obi-Wan’s style into a place where… somebody who’s rustybut also older and just very well thought out. But it was hard."

But the rust is quantified as “not that much” per the choreographer, who attributes this as being what Deb told him.

“So I have the inbetween. So I can’t make them, um when we’re doing the stuff, and this is a credit to our director Deborah Chow too she’s very in tune with that stuff.

But um, y’know, I have to see how those guys fought in number 3 (Revenge of The Sith), because that’s like one of the most iconic fights ever in Star Wars right. Because you gotta see how they fight there because they won’t be that much different when you get to the inbetween (Obi Wan Kenobi series).

We see that when Vader starts the fight one handed, he’s able to briefly match a two handed Kenobi:

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"Vader sparks his own blade and attacks. The two of them fight in a clash of blue and red. Each skillfully parry erupts in a flurry of sparks. A view from overheard swirls around the heated combat. Obi Wan gymnastically tumbles away from his adversary and continues the battle from one knee. As their blades lock together he returns to his feet and tries to connect with a mighty lunge. The two of them briefly find themselves fighting back to back. Each spinning to try and gain the upper hand on the other."

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But Kenobi forces him to go on the defensive as Kenobi’s two handed grip > Vader’s one handed.

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By this point, Kenobi presses his offensive position. Many people say this is a bad look for Vader, but not really. Vader made the mistake of starting one handed, which cost him. Kenobi has strength close to KFV, and once he’s in the offensive, he presses it hard and doesn’t lose rhythm

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Even after Kenobi rams him back in saberlock, he has to out manaeuver Vader in the tight space by rolling around:

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We then see that Vader manages to get the offensive and presses it:

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Also recall that Deborah Chow implies they’ve been fighting for a very long time pre pit.

If left to their own devices, Chow thinks they can duel forever, much like Mustafar:

These two are pretty evenly matched. And throughout the fight it sort of ebbs and flows as to who has the upper hand. But you know, these are two guys who could just go on and fight to the death forever”

It’s essentially the ROTS duel again, but this time, “nobody can get the high ground”

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The actual on screen fight including off screen is 3 minutes, which is a long time. But with Deb’s implication and the quotes of it being a continuation of ROTS, it could be closer to the length of the ROTS fight. Which is closer to 8 minutes:

It’s worth noting that Mustafar Kenobi aka pre pit Obi Wan, is well beyond the likes of Dooku due to scaling with KFV. Read below:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/explaining-mustafar-obi-wan-disney-canon-2327677/

So Vader matching this Kenobi in duelling puts his force augmented stats much beyond the likes of ROTS Count Dooku

Kenobi then gets powered up, read here -

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/reconciling-and-explaining-the-post-pit-obi-wan-2325548/

While letting go Kenobi essentially mid diffs Vader, it’s not an easy mid diff. Vader can augment himself even further by tapping into rage briefly match this amped Kenobi in bladelock and even drive him back:

Case in point, Vader briefly matched him in saber-lock:

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After tanking the force push, then withstands the rock barrage and then drive Kenobi back by tapping into his reserves:

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Vader is able to briefly match him in blade-locks even after having his chest panel smashed:

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OWK Vader is simply way better than Jedi Anakin and even above KFV.

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#9 frozen  Moderator
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#10  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@sonofdarkness said:

Yeah it’s not like a force user can get a huge power up in a short amount of time… that’s NEVER happened before

I wouldn’t pay much mind to DarkGlobe. His arguments have been repeatedly debunked.