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Fated_Xtasy

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@thevivas said:

Jeez this guy is strong. Great job!

Thanks man! The structure of this RT is going to be changing soon though hahaha :)

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I've opinions about your thoughts on Ferus @xolthol. But otherwise, nice rebuttal my man.

Good Luck to all parties involved.

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@darthwill3 I'm beyond bored, so i'll bite. who's debating who and can I chime in?

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#5  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

@darthbane77 I got half of my response typed up and ready, but celebrations are getting in the way. i do wanna continue. but I'll have my post up tomorrow in the evening(U.S Central time) if it aint up by then, then i'll have it up after christmas.

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DB, i'll be avoiding CV/KMC until after the 16ths, due to TLJ spoilers, i also have a lot of Xmas shopping to do(I hate having friends, cuz now i gotta get em shiz) Once again, I wont be too busy so I'll gradually type some stuff when I can, i hope you understand. Also, I'm loving our debate, it's revitalized my interest in debating, a great deal. :D

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@darthbane77 said:

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the quote I was thinking of, so I have to assume it was either made up, or some Star Wars induced fever dream, haha! So on the point of that specific quote, we’re both gonna have to settle with being disappointed, lol.

Very well.

If it’s evidence you desire, it’s evidence you shall have.

What? lol, Ok.

Because of the previously used source, I’m actually gonna rescind that small concession, or rather, bring the point back up.

we'll see.

Three-hundred years of advancement or not, 6+ Hammerheads are >> a single Harrower, based on numbers alone.

Yeah, prolly. Though, the Hammerheads were limited in their ability to coordinate due to their data systems being incapable of dealing with the stress of "large fleet actions," according to the KOTOR RPG campaign guide(Not to be confused with the KOTOR Prima guide.) But that's a debate for another time, unless you want fight that bad on this, whatever the case I leave that to you.

Plus, the comparison between the Star Forge and Temple isn’t apt, given the Star Forge was more advanced.

Indeed, so it would make assuming the Temple would be damaged by a single, more advanced, battle-cruiser - Similar to The Oppressor which was capable of crippling Taris - is only logical right?

he logical explanation is that there were far more Republic ships present at the battle than we see, which isn’t really surprising, given that we know Malak’s FLEET destroyed Taris, yet the cutscenes in-game show only the Leviathan. Logic dictates that could have been DOZENS of ships present firing on the Star Forge.

Yes. there were smaller republic ships, yes Malak's fleet did destroy Taris, I would attribute this to the fact that his fleet destroyed the Endar Spire, his fleet also attacked the Ebon Hawk, more so than whatever you're trying to insinuate. That said, yes, smaller ships did attempt to attack the Star Forge... they just failed to do any damage lol. Not to mention they would be attempting to keep the remaining ships at bay. so you're right, they are there, however whatever assistance they provided was negligible

As well, the Harrower obviously did little to no damage to the temple anyway, as the quote from PoD suggests. (sorry if this seems disjointed, as I’m writing this, I’m pretty tired).

Is that so?

The basic gist of what I’m trying to say, is that whether there was 300 years of advancement for the Harrower doesn’t seem to matter, compared to the numbers arrayed against the Star Forge, and the fact that Bane notes the Temple to be in pristine condition.Bane also notes that plant life seems to refuse to grow around the temple, while this is obviously not entirely true based on the screenshot I provided (kinda shot myself in the foot there huh? haha) it does help support the idea that any damage to the Temple was superficial at best, if it was present at all.

Ok, I'm having trouble following you, DB, so.. you first stated the following:

At first, this may seem only mildly impressive, but in reality, it’s incredibly impressive, the Lehon temple’s size in the PoD novel is reflective of the temple’s size in the first KOTOR game, which was relatively small, however, the temple seen in KOTOR was later retconned to be far larger in SWTOR.

You, in your first post.

You're using TOR, a source which you correctly state that has retconned the size of the Temple in the universe, and proceed to say:

Now, more than just the size of the temple was changed, we also got a good look at its durability in SWTOR. This temple tanked direct bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought, one of the most powerful ship types of the era.

And now you're citing POD, the source you stated was overridden by SWTOR, as your proof? I'm sure you know, as someone who just went through the source, that this is the same material that notes the Temple's height as being twenty meters. yes?

Suddenly they broke through into a clearing, a circle nearly one hundred meters across. In the very center stood the Rakatan Temple. The structure rose nearly twenty meters to the sky, a monument of carved rock and stone.

POD

I'm sorry, but which source are you sticking too? Bane notes that the temple is pristine, but clearly the TOR shows something else entirely from that. I mean, the only logical reason I could see for Temple being smaller is the very likely possibility that Revan's bombardment did more damage than we had originally thought. So, please explain which source you’re sticking too, because there no way you can use both sources without them coming into conflict with one-another, especially when it comes to Bane's supposed "best" feat.

Well, fortunately for myself, I found evidence to support my “outlandish” claims. Bane’s own statement that the temple was pristine.

Support that is in contention with your previous statements. Which can be summarized as putting one's foot in their mouths. No offense.

As for your argument about the Medical ship, if what you say is true, and the station was destroyed because, and think you’d agree, overloading engines capable of thrusting a ship weighing hundreds, if not thousands, of tons, should cause more damage than turbolasers. Also, proof that the station in your quotes is Rakata?

Why of course.

He sat in the middle of a wide corridor. The dim, intermittent flashes of the strange overhead lights showed little detail. The walls, ceilings, and floors were composed of a substance he'd never seen before, light green, semitranslucent. At first he thought it was some form of plastoid, or hued transparisteel, but no, it was a resin of some kind. For the first time, he realized that the floor was not merely vibrating under him, it was warm, like flesh. Faint lines of light glowed deep within it, barely visible, capillaries of luminescence. The arrangement looked ordered, a matrix of some kind, and the pattern of their flashes was not random, though he could not look at it long without its flashes disorienting him.

He tried to make sense of what he was seeing. The architecture, the technology it implied :

Where was he?

A word leapt to the forefront of his mind, a flash that came and went without explanation.

Rakatan.

Star Wars: Riptide

Here's another.

They took position in Flotsam's cockpit, ran a quick diagnostic, and got on the comm with Khedryn. The ship's boat detached from Junker and floated free in space. Jaden engaged the engines and the small craft darted toward the enormous station.

"I'm curious as to what that tether connects to below the surface," Marr said.

"As am I," Jaden answered, imagining a hollow planet filled with Rakatan technology.

"I'll swing Junker into the fringe of the asteroid belt," Khedryn said. "Just to stay out of sight."

Star Wars: Riptide

And another

Flotsam closed on the enormous Rakatan cylinder. Jaden piloted the boat in close, studying the smooth, glistening surface of the cylinder through the cockpit's canopy. As they flew over it, the surface rippled and bulged, not unlike the skin of the sick clones.

Star Wars: Riptide

Another.

Nyss saw the scan readout in his HUD, which indicated a huge structure in geosynchronous orbit above the rocky surface of a desolate planet. He pulled the flyer above the plane of the asteroid belt and caused the image in the transparisteel canopy to magnify.

There, he saw it clearly-an enormous, greenish lozenge floating above the planet, connected to the surface by a miles-long shaft. He did not need further scans to know that the station was a mechano-organic construct. He recognized the telltale signs of Rakatan technology, the same technology reflected in the mindspears he carried.

"What is that?" the Iteration asked.

"A Rakatan station," Nyss said.

Star Wars: Riptide

And another.

He patted Junker's instrument panel and allowed himself a relieved breath. He hoped the Umbaran had blown himself up in the asteroid belt, but a scan of the area showed otherwise.

The scout ship was headed fast toward the Rakatan station on the dark side of the planet.

Star Wars: Riptide

Would you care for more proof? or is that enough?

Finally, the quotes from Theron, don’t imply anything regarding the temple. They imply concern for the PEOPLE that were on the roof of the temple, concern for their safety, and at the time, I’m sure they knew little about the durability of the temple. Bane’s observations of the temple’s condition obviously mean any concern Theron had over the temple itself, was unwarranted.

LMAO, no, it means that a book that was published September 26, 2006, didn't take into account the "concern" a character created 4 years, 8 months, and 13 days later, had.(btw, that's June 8th of 2011) So, whatever view Bane held in regards to the condition of the temple, is kind of invalidated. With that said, I need to know what source are you sticking to? Because you can't just plant yourself firmly into one side, and then switch to the other side when it suits your agenda/needs, my dude.

All of these are points I’ve addressed already, so I won’t waste your time by making you re-read through what you just finished reading a minute ago.

You know, I'm actually thankful for that, no sarcasm. Debates often get lost in repeating the shame stuff over, and over, so thanks! :p

I mean, ragdolling several powerful Force users should logically be >>ragdolling droids. But, since this IS a debate, As a couple of TK feats for Bane:

Ragdolling a Sith Master as a mere apprentice:

Que? Firstly, Yevra is fodder compared to the likes of Sirak, let that sink in. Secondly, Githany killed Yevra, not Bane. Lastly, all of the students on the Sith Academy of Korriban were given the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, which includes Bane, as well. So, no, Bane wasn't a "mere apprentice." And Yevra being a Dark Lord - not a Sith Master - isn't as impressive as it seems when Bane holds the exact, same, title.

The news that Bane had returned did not sit well with Qordis. The timing couldn't have been worse. Lord Kaan had sent an urgent message: everyone from the Academy was to come to Ruusan to join the battle against the Jedi. The apprentices were all to be presented with lightsabers and given seats in the Brotherhood of Darkness, elevating them to the ranks of the Dark Lords of the Sith.

POD

If anything, despite their title, the two were technically equal, in title only, at best.

"I of all people should have known better than to underestimate you," she said. "You saw me take your lightsaber! That's why you followed me."

"No," Bane replied, still heady from the rush of killing his enemy. "I didn't see anything. I was just guessing?'

For a brief moment her expression darkened; then she burst out with a laugh. "You never cease to amaze me, Lord Bane."

"Don't call me that," he said.

"Why not?" she asked. "Qordis has given all the students the rank of Dark Lord of the Sith."

POD

I don't know where you got the idea that Yevra was a sith master, and Bane an apprentice, but it sure is..odd.

For proof that Qordis is among Kaan's most powerful, here's his RT. I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Considering the fact that Bane, before he himself finally accepted his title of Dark Lord, considers Qordis a master of nothing.

When Bane hesitated, Qordis spoke again. "Take it, Lord Bane." He put a special emphasis on the new title. It sounded sour in Bane's ears: an empty honor bestowed by a fool who believed himself a Master.

POD

Not to mention, that being the strongest out of a bunch of weaklings isn't impressive at all. Consider this:



He(Bane) wouldn't be foolish enough to say so, of course. The Brotherhood would never follow him; neither would Qordis or any of the others at the Academy. Weak and ignorant as they were, they could still overwhelm him with their numbers.

POD

I honestly, don't how worth we put into Palpatine's word when he's never met Qordis, as opposed to Bane who considers the man a weakling..

It’s still not comparable, despite your “inertia” statement. Blasting apart the temple walls and archway, with its established durability, is far more impressive than Windu’s feat with the door.

I never stated it was comparable, merely that the way the feats are executed are similar, given that they both rip the support of something, and, gravity does the rest.


Silly how? Based on the Temple’s obviously immense durability, I don’t see how you’d disagree that Mace’s feat is inferior.

That statement is highly questionable, my dude.

Dooku is stated to be Windu’s equal on more than occasion, no?

I believe so, yes.

Logically, on a Dark Side nexus, he would be above Windu.

Arguable.

With that, Dooku on Vjun still failed to defeat Yoda, despite Yoda being hindered on top of Dooku’s amp.

Yeah, and Yoda failed to beat Sidious, you wouldn't necessarily say that Sheev is on a whole different level than Yoda, would you? Not to mention.

Yoda is, obviously, much farther above Windu and Dooku than you seem to think. As for the quotes you provided, none of them are at all convincing as far as the “Windu~/=Yoda” argument goes, and I’ll explain why.

Aight.

Nothing much to disprove here, it says Windu is second to Yoda, which really means very little. You can be the second most powerful Jedi and still be vastly weaker than the most powerful Jedi. Using Revan as an example again (I know, original right?) Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his age, and Meetra the second, yet Surik, by all accounts, was nowhere near as powerful as Revan. Another example is Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron or Jaina Solo, either Kyp or Jaina can be argued as the NJO's second best, but neither of them are in the same wheelhouse as Luke. Now, obviously Windu is more powerful than Surik, and I'm not saying Windu is vastly below Kyp or Jaina, but logic and precedent stand to say that Windu being second only to Yoda doesn’t need to mean Windu is at all comparable to Yoda. This same argument and logic can apply to almost all of the quotes you provided here. Except this one:

Except... some quotes call Mace Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order(meaning force or what have you), then continue to call him the most senior member of the Council.. in the same quote, so?

Not to mention that they refer to power in each, and everyone of those quotes, so you're points kind of moot. I mean, who has ever considered a quote calling a Jedi powerful to mean political power? I mean, heck, the Council themselves detest involving themselves in politics lol. I understand you what you're trying to get at, but it doesn't apply here, sorry, i guess.

Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace Windu is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.

I'm sorry, but I just can't put Bane above the likes of Mace, this guys took on Palaptine when the most revered of swordmasters fell to the Sith Lord, is considered an equal to one of the most prolific duelists of the era, an equal to the second greatest Jedi Grandmaster, ever, has dueled evenly with a Jedi-Killer capable of single-handedly destroying the likes of Mundi, Ti, and the like, I just don't see it, Sorry.

That's my response for the time being, I apologize for the long wait, I've been busy with the holidays, cooking for thanksgiving, and putting up decorations for my favorite freaking holiday ever!(hint, hint, it's awesome) So it's taken me awhile, hope you had a lovely thanksgiving if you celebrate it, DB, or just a lovely day in general if you don't ;D

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@darthbane77 Whoa my dude, nice to see your response, unfortunately, i won't be able to respond till December due to the holidays, work I need to be doing, and of course NaNoWriMo. That said, my internet won't be too bad, I think, so in between all that I'll work on my response and hopefully I'll have it up before December. :D

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@fated_xtasy: I ended up visiting my grandparents, and their internet connection is kinda bad, making it harder to find my sources and stuff. So I'll have to wait until I get back to finish my response. Apologies for the delay.

Hey don't worry about it, buddy. Enjoy your little vacation :)