Kuzan Aokiji: 2nd Cour

Maintaining Advantages

I'm well aware of the tricky nature Logia users have. The issue you are facing here is that Zenon doesn't need to touch Aokiji. All he needs is the sight of him, and he can banish him into a subspace that nets him a victory via incapactition.

Except that ain't how the ability work, The ability isn't use for incapacitation rather to trap an opponent in a small area in order to set them up with a multidirectional bone attack that destroy said box:

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He has quite literally never used it for pure incapacitation, and since he has no knowledge on his opponent it will especially be the same, and Aokiji will have no problem walking away from this.

Please don't think that my continuing with extra points means I think Zenon needs them because, as far as I'm concerned, Subspace is an instant win.

Expect it isn't, considering it not an incapacitation technique but rather, a technique that helps with set up another, as I explain above.

I will also add that Aokiji can't freeze space which means Zenon can swing his Dainsleif and rupture the very space Aokiji occupies until there's no Ice left for him to regenerate.

And that wouldn't work due to Aokiji being able to create as much as Ice as he want to regenerate from, cutting through space doesn't mean cutting through his actual body.

I agree with Kuzan being a potent Ice user, but I take issue with him being able to freeze Zenon's consciousness. My first reason is that Whitebeard could think enough to free himself, and his constitution at the time is far beneath what an invulnerable/immortal like Zenon has.

I knew you were going to use this example but Old beard wasn't thinking for himself, as stated by Aokiji it was due to the vibration of his Quake that he couldn't freeze him, Old beard was setting up from a Quake attack and Aokiji try to freeze along with his Quake, and that obviously didn't work due him being unable to freeze vibrations not due to Old beard thinking for himself:

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My second reason is that the Devil doesn't need their bodies for consciousness. They're what's described as a "malicious soul" and have shown time and time again to think, act, and use magic while their body is entirely indisposed. I showed this above when Zagred, a lower-ranked Devil than Zenon, was utterly vaporized, and he still healed himself. Tabata adds to this, though, by showing Megicula do the same.

That is due to their Heart acting as their consciousness/brain, and Aokiji's Ice will Freeze everything including that, which would be same as freezing their brain. but if he has capable of staying conscious while within the Ice, there isn't much he can do about it, his best bet would be to use the his bones since it doesn't require movement to destroy the Ice from the outside and that also a dead end due to the massive durability of said Ice. Zoro who came fresh out cutting through a beanstalk that no-sold an Island falling on it, couldn't even scratch a random Ice sword Kuzan made by spitting.

I agree that Aokiji is fast, but he's fast compared to Doflamingo and Luffy, which isn't enough to compete here. An example of this is the showing you used, Luffy dodging 3-4 LS beams from a distance of 10-15 meters compared to Yuno dancing through 34 of them once they're in his face. And I showed a scan of Zenon nonchalantly reacting to an outraged Yuno, who just watched his friends and Captain gets massacred by Zenon.

Alright, first let start by addressing some the points about Yuno speed scaling, first you have to understand when Yuno did his dancing around the light beam, he was within his mana zone, which as you already know, Mana zone greatly increase the user stats, precog, magic and detection skills, he was actually only able to perform the feat through Mana zone for that matter, and He was also enhance by his added elf powers he got during the arc. Basically Yuno was double enhance when performing this feat, that is much faster than just an outraged Yuno looking for vengeance.

I think you misunderstood the scaling of the feat, While Luffy calling light beam too slow is a cool feat, the point of the scaling is that Luffy who in his base form called light beam too slow while casually dodging it was completely humiliated by Doflamingo speed wise while in Gear 2 which faster than his base form, Doflamingo was so much faster than Luffy he actually did something similar to Yuno's feat which was completely evading a barrage of punches from Gear 2 Luffy:

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Doflamingo was so much faster than Luffy's barrage that he looked like a blur compare to it which even Luffy himself lost sight of him, and Aokiji had no problem freezing him before he could move his hand a few inches.

Devil Power is something that significantly increases stats to the point that 1% allowed Vanica to go from losing against Noelle to thoroughly beating her. The implications for this are massive because, based on what's been stated here, I don't think Aokiji can keep up with base Zenon so how does he stand a chance against 55%? 80%? 100%? I'm still not grasping how this puts Aokiji above Yuno in speed which base Zenon can handle.

I actually agree with you to some extent on this, speed feats isn't really a great one, I tried using it as a formality since I didn't want to use the same speed feats twice, but I take it back, instead I'll be only using the Doflamingo one, and using that it puts Kuzan as speed above Yuno, as Aokiji casually blitz and froze Aokiji a man that replicated Yuno's feat of dodging trough multiple light beam but instead did it against a much faster Gear 2 Luffy.

Adding to this, Zenon's speed as never been a problem when facing him and Zuno as quite literally never needed to boost his speed through Mana zone or anything in order to compete with him, it was always is strength and defense, so I quite literally don't see why Base Zenon would be significantly faster than he was before he started adding percent, I mean even after he turned into 100%, Yuno only mentioned his regeneration and attack increase, not his speed, again reinforcing the idea that Zenon speed was never a problem that Yuno had to deal with.

Even as Noelle mentioned in her fight against Vanica it wasn't a boost in speed that she couldn't handle, but a boost in power, even when she boosted her power up to 66-67% Noelle had no problem keeping up with her speed, it was always the power difference that decided the victor, not the speed.

Aokiji having Future Sight is one of my favorite theories, but it's nothing more than theory. Observation Haki alone is enough to do what Aokiji did, shown as far back as the Skypiea arc with Sanji and Satori.

I know that could be written off as just pure observation Haki, but the reason why I disagree is because Katakuri quite literally explain why the admiral weren't getting touched during the war despite opponent using Haki, Kuzan couldn't be tocuhed, Kizaru, and even Akainu, the only time they can touched is when they lose their cool as explain by Katakuri, which exactly what happened before Akainu got hit by old beard. This quite literally the use of Future as explain by Katakuri.

Please don't take this as me accepting the premise of Aokiji having Future Sight because I'm not, but let us think about this for a moment. Zenon needs vision of Aokiji, and it's off to Subspace. Aokiji, who's much slower knowing Zenon's about to BFR him into Subspace, doesn't stop it from happening. What would it change?

It mean that Aokiji could dodge Spatial magic attack without needed to regenerate all the time, and putting Aokiji to Subspace is point was Zenon would get him out of it right away due to the nature of the attack, especially when they don't have any knowledge of each others, while Kuzan would do what he does best, flash freeze him and call it a day.

I don't see how Flash Freeze is a threat when it can't kill Zenon, and he can always free himself, and as my final point, Aokiji can't survive absolute existence erasure from Spatial Magic or counter Subspace BFR.

It doesn't have to kill him, but it would definitely turn him into a mindless statue of Ice, and he has no way of freeing himself from it even if he was still concession enough to understand he got frozen, Existence erasure from Spatial Magic is partial, something Kuzan can easily regenerate from or dodge through Logia dispersion, and Subspace is not something Zenon uses for BFR, so Zenon himself will free Kuzan out it.

Conclusion:

I don't think I had any of Zenon's win conditions contested.

Zenon remains the only one here with win conditions.

I very much doubt that.

Conclusion

I don't think I needed to go back to counter his original post since he didn't you brought up pretty much the same point as before, so i didn't think it would be necessary.

I pretty much maintain my conclusion as the

The obvious biggest way Kuzan can win this fight is still through Flash freezing and This will be still near impossible to avoid, defend or escape from as Zenon doesn't have anything against it.

Same thing really on the defensive side, Kuzan's Logia as really yet to be challenge, the best thing against it is Spatial Magic there isn't anything saying that he wouldn't just regenerate from the by creating more Ice and second threat is BFR Via subspace but Subspace is not really something use for BFR by Zenon, it more of a set up for another attack.

Speed wise I believe it about the same, I don't think Kuzan or Zenon are speedy type fighter so it wouldn't much of a problem for either of them.

So Yea that basically it for now.