Erkan12's comments

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Posted By Erkan12

I forgot to add the Yuuzhan Vong fight, now it's updated.

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Edited By Erkan12

@lord_tenebrous said:

Maul easily stomps Sugi, a dangerous, skilled and famed bounty hunter, in unarmed combat:

^^ 3:24-3:30

Maul is described as having unrivaled profiency, and as being a flawless assassin:

"Darth Maul was apprentice to Darth Sidious. His unparalleled skill and ferocity made him the perfect assassin, and he was used by Sidious to start conflict between star systems."

-- Star Wars: The Force Inside

Qui Gon Jinn is barely able to deflect TPM Maul's first attack on Tatooine. They then engage in an intense swordfight, wherein Qui Gon is struggling to hold his own, and display amazing gymnastic prowess:


-- The Phantom Menace: Original Script

Of course a few things happen in between the portions I've given, but I've omitted them due to their irrelevence.

The script is already on the thread. And I don't think The Force Inside is canon.

Legends is in here;

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Posted By Erkan12

@kilius: As for Savage;

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True or False? ''Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.''

False: ''Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''

Source: Star Wars: The Clone Wars: What Is a Sith Warrior?

@kilius said:

Maul kicked Sidious in a duel.

Yes while rage amped in a manner not too dissimilar to TPM Kenobi. Now yes Maul is a dark sider and always uses his rage in combat I know, but it's not even about the Force. It's the fact that he's fighting with more ferocity and without regard to his own personal safety. Once Savage was killed he stopped being cautious. Let me show you another example of a dark sider being amped:

"She crumpled to the floor, dazed. Before she had a chance to rise, Githany lashed out with her whip and ended the Zabrak female's life.

Bane barely had time to register her death before Llokay was on him. The red-skinned Zabrak was overmatched, but his grief and rage empowered him, and he drove his much larger opponent back with a brutal series of desperate slashes and strikes." ~ Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

This is proof that even a Sith can be circumstantially rage amped. This is the exact same situation as Savage - and it shows, it's only after Savage's death does Maul actually make any headway against Sidious, whereas before Sidious never wavered from his position of superiority even against both of them.

If a Sith needs a circumstantial rage amplification, then that Sith's training isn't complete. Rage and hate is the only difference between the Sith and the Jedi.

Dooku trained Savage by making him hate himself. Sidious provoked RotJ Luke by telling him to use his hate flow through himself.

Maul's dark side frenzy even surpassed Kenobi's rage amplification in TPM.

As I said before, Maul's Sith training was complete and he could draw more dark side powers than others. He didn't need any rage amplification, and there is no source states that Maul kicked Shitious because of an amplification, that's something you made up.

@kilius said:

In all seriousness, I respect the effort and passion you put into this. I can tell you are sincere in your belief, unlike some crazy radicals I've debated recently (referring to the Bane vs Sidious saber only thread).

That said, one more round:

Grievous sends his personal Magnaguards to deal with Maul.

And Maul defeats them with ease.

This isn't as impressive as you are making out. Yes in OCW and RotS movie and novel, magnaguards were true threats to Jedi Council Level Masters. As of TCW? They are fodder. You only need to look at the difference between Anakin's encounters with them in RotS and TCW

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Anakin struggles with one.

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Season 1 Anakin fodderizes four. Season 1 Anakin = SOD Maul >>>> RotS Anakin?

How so? Anaking get hit by one Magnaguard there, did you see any of them hitting Maul?

@kilius said:

AotC Kenobi drives Dookuback

OBI-WAN takes a deep breath, gets a fresh grip on his lightsaber and comes in again. For a moment, he drives COUNT DOOKU back. Then Dooku's superior skill begins to tell again, and he forces OBI-WAN to retreat.''

Yeah because he wasn't taking the duel seriously, as he was disappointed in Kenboi's skill. What happens afterword?

COUNT DOOKU increases the tempo of his attack. OBI-WAN is pushed to the limit to defend himself. DOOKU presses. His lightsaber flashes. OBI-WAN is wounded in the shoulder, then the thigh. He stumbles back against the wall, trips, and falls. His lightsaber goes skittering across the floor.

He increased his tempo, a clear indication he wasn't going all out before and possibly toying.

Compare that to Maul's performance against the 2 Jedi Knights.

''The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once, flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.''

Yeah because he was taking the duel seriously from the beginning.

Jinn and Kenobi both gave Maul pause when he underestimated them, just like Dooku's example:

“It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear.He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.”

-- The Phantom Menace novelization

Not saying this would happen in a regular encounter, Maul was clearly not prepared for Jinn's newfound ferocity, and Jinn pressed his advantage. But it shows that both tier 8 fighters can be put on the defensive by high 7s when they underestimate their opponents and give them an opportunity to press the advantage.

Both Jinn and AotC Kenobi got their moments to shine against the big bads before they went down. It isn't a slight to either Sith Lord.

How can you even compare Qui-Gon + TPM Kenobi to AotC Kenobi? Qui-Gon alone is better, adding TPM Kenobi who was ready to become a Jedi knight makes this one sided competition.

The rivals couldn't be compared, yet Maul had better feats.

@kilius said:

Maul portrayed better than Dooku against Mace Windu.

We've never seen Dooku vs Mace in the post-RotS movie release media. I acknowledge that Mace > Dooku as of RotS but before they were consistently portrayed as peers, which is obviously inaccurate to Lucas's vision, as was Ki Adi Mundi being married before AotC's revealed Jedi weren't allowed to have families or attachments.

One is escaping from Windu, and the other one is taking Mace Windu + Aayla Secura, and kicking Aayla Secura at the same time.

The difference is clear.

@kilius said:

Maul portrayed better than Adult Ahsoka (who contended with Vader).

She contended and lost and so would Maul according to Fillini. Not exactly something Dooku can't replicate - contending and then losing, and also acknowledge he is no match for Vader alone.

She Force pushed Vader during the duel, I would be surprised if Dooku could push Vader by using the Force.

Anakin as of TCW S4 managed to overpower Dooku in a duel, Vader would completely stomp him.

Maul > Ahsoka / Dooku.

@kilius said:

Maul dominated TCW S4 Kenobi in a duel.

The duel was circumstantial for both sides. Maul was out of practice and Kenobi was beaten up and somewhat hindered by an unfamiliar lightsaber grip and handle.

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0:57 - 1:00 Maul and Kenobi clash evenly.

1:01 - 1:07 they clash and switch opponents briefly and re-engage. Note that Ventress lands a kick on Maul despite his placement on the list(no I'm not suggesting Ventress > Maul) while Kenobi lands a punch on Savage. It's a visual indication the team has a slight advantage.

1:08 Kenobi lands a kick on Maul and sends him back a few feet.

1:18 - 1:22 in the background, Kenobi and Maul clash evenly

1:30 - 1:34 Maul and Kenobi clash. Maul overcommits himself leaving him vulnerable to Kenobi's Force push. Kenboi uses the moment to check on Ventress instead of pressing his advantage, an indication he's in control at the moment.

1:39 - 1:42 Kenobi outmaneuvers Maul and retrieves his lightsaber and kicks Maul again out of the way in order to return Ventresses lightsaber.

1:50 - 1:52 Maul finally makes headway and lands two successive kicks on Kenobi putting him on the backfoot.

2:01 - 2:09 Maul presses his attack, slowly pushing Kenobi back then uses a dun mock tactic

2:16 - 2:21 Kenobi breaks the blade lock and presses Maul back in a series of ferocious slashes, but leaves himself open to Maul's kick.

For the first half of the duel, Kenobi was winning. He landed three kicks, plus his punch to Savage and Ventress's kick to Maul. Maul overcommitted and left himself vulnerable to Kenobi's Force push and even took the moment to check on Ventress instead of pressing his advantage, and then outmaneuvered him and retrieved his lightsaber. Yes, Maul did make a comeback before his dun moch tactic, but he wasn't close to dominating Kenobi until he was mentally unbalanced. And they were both hindered by circumstances.

Now you might argue that dun moch is a perfectly legitimate tactic and it is. The problem is that this wouldn't work again against even a season 5 Kenobi let alone RotS Kenobi. Kenobi wouldn't be affected by don moch any more than he would against Galia's death:

Dave Filoni: When you get to this Episode Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi Gallia dies he gains even more focus and has to kind of right that wrong.

He isn't dominating RotS Kenobi in a regular encounter, who has much more emotional fortitude than last time.

Oh and before you cry out 'amp', it's a permanent amp, which is applicable to Kenobi anyways. Kenobi isn't just going to forget the deaths Maul caused, any more than Maul is going to forget Kenobi bringing him down to his condition. It's a level of 'focus' Kenobi is always going to have when he faces Maul.

You forget this Maul returned 10 years out of practice and he dueled with Kenobi right after his return. He needed time to recover during the duel, once he regained his rythm he dominated Kenobi by kicking him at least 10 meters towards the wall, then he used dun moch, Kenobi wasn't able to do anything to Maul, but after the dun moch, Maul completely dominated him.

So, none of your arguments are actually valid.

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Edited By Erkan12

I have some script additions for you @kilius

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Edited By Erkan12

@erkan12: I brought up Maul thinking he couldn't defeat Vader because he thought he could do so to Greivous, the same person I showed kicking the shit out of Kenobi several times. I'm sorry, I'm a Maul fan as well. He definitely beats Dooku (I'd say 7/10) but he'd get stomped by Vader as per Filoni having him kill Maul and beat Ahsoka as I showed. He also is canonically better than the person who stomped Maul while toying with him as per Filoni again.

Maul would give a better fight to Vader than Ahsoka did.

Maul almost defeated Shitious even before TPM. And kicked him during the duel in the Clone Wars, ''toying'' is no different than making up excuses like Sidious faked his defeat against Mace Windu, Maul was a solid match for him in sabers only, and even kicked him. Again ; KICKED him during the duel, it seems some people don't realize that.

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@insanity_ said:

Darth Maul, one of the deadliest and overconfident Sith in history, muses that he wouldn't be a match for Vader.

Ahsoka: Why are you working so hard to keep us here?

Maul: I cannot defeat Vader alone.

-- Star Wars Rebels Season 2: Twilight Of The Apprentice

I don't think that means Maul wouldn't be a match for Vader. He just believes he can't defeat him in single combat. So he isn't risking the battle by dealing with him alone.

Yoda said, or accepted that he couldn't defeat Sidious in RotS, so he retreated and he never faced him again. That doesn't mean Yoda can't match with Sidious.

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Posted By Erkan12

The top 4 (Vader-Sidious-Maul-Dooku) are really close in skill. But yeah, Vader is slightly better due to his cybernetic advantage (which increases his strength) and armor, it's hard to defeat him in a lightsaber only combat when he can resist at least 2 or 3 lightsaber strikes, when others can not.

Ahsoka (with the help of a cheap-shot) had a free shot even on his helmet, and he continued to fight all the same.

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