Why the list says Maul > Dooku?

TOP 5 RED LIGHTSABER WIELDERS

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3-) Darth Maul

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4-) Darth Tyranus

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Source: Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)

Now let's remember what their Sith Master said about Maul and Dooku;

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Sidious : ''Darth Maul was a loss, but Darth Tyranus... He was a proton torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone...''

Source: Darth Vader #20 (2016)

One was a ''loss'' and the other one was a ''proton torpedo''. Despite losing both, Dooku was always meant to be a placeholder while Maul wasn't.

This is a very important evidence towards how important Maul was in the Sith order, unlike Dooku, Maul was meant to be a successor, thus his training was more important than Dooku's.

Sidious states that Maul's skill as a sword master is peerless;

Sidious : ''Your skill as a sword master is peerless.''

Source: Darth Maul: Saboteur (2001)

Another source states that Dooku has never been the true Sith apprentice.

''Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith.''

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel (2005)

Dooku himself admits that Maul is a ''Great Sith Lord''.

Dooku : ''I foresee we will do great things together, I shall teach you the ways of the Dark Side. Soon, your powers will rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul.''

Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3 Episode 13 (2011)

And what Maul thinks about Dooku?

Maul: ''You're Dooku... The Jedi betrayer? I've heard much of you since my rebirth. I expected... more.''

Source: Son of Dathomir #1 (2014)

In another issue, Maul asks from Dooku to become his apprentice.

Maul: ''You abandoned the Jedi when you understood the Sith were gaining power. Now I suggest you abandon Sidious and serve me.''

Dooku: ''Do you really believe there is any power in the galaxy that can stand against my lord?''

Source: Son of Dathomir #3 (2014)

Dave Filoni states that Maul is in the ''Vader realm''.

Dave Filoni : ''Maul is a super dangerous threat. Because he has been trained for years. He’s really adept. So he’s kind of in the Vader realm. He’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways. Not the least of which is manipulation.''

Source: Rebel Force Radio Interview (2012)

Let's see why Maul ranks better than Dooku.

Nick Gillard's tiering system for TPM Maul;

Nick Gillard : ''And somebody like Kit Fisto is 7. I did take it to 8 and 9. But not many people know that. 8 and 9 is cheat.''

''Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III (7 to 8), but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. So Obi-Wan is 8. Yoda is 9. Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Dooku & Maul (TPM) are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.''

Source: Danger-inc.com, Theforce.net, Saberproject

Maul has become more powerful after TPM.

''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''

Source: The Clone Wars: Shadow Conspiracy (2013)

''Found himself in awe of Sidious''

And since the source takes place after Maul's revival, it considers Maul's power growth as well.

Let's see what the Author of Son of Dathomir comic said about Maul vs. Dooku duel before;

Barlow : ''Hmm. 6/10 sounds good. Maybe even 7/10—'cause Maul won't quit until he's completely out. That's just my opinion, though.''

Source: Twitter.com/Jeremy_Barlow/status/521480966431584256 (2014)

The reason why Barlow believes that Maul defeats Dooku 7/10, because ''he won't quit until he's completely out.'' .

That never changes, even after 20 years, Maul finds a hiding Ben Kenobi on the desert only by his sheer will and his persistence, and by using the Sith Holocron and manipulating Ezra Bridger.

Ben Kenobi : ''One doesn't survive as long as I've by being foolish or unprepared. Maul is an old adversary, and a persistent one at that.''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 3 Episode 20 (2017)

Drawing Ben Kenobi out by ''altering the course of many things'', which is imo, was just a tip of an iceberg when it comes to Maul's capabilities as a Sith.

Ben Kenobi: ''They didn't. Maul did. Maul used your desire to do good, to deceive you. And in doing so, he has altered the course of many things. He knows your fears, your heart, and he manipulated the truth which has led you here. Where you should had never have been.''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 3 Episode 20 (2017)

This is not the only reason why Maul's knowledge of the Dark Side is superior to Dooku, not only he has shown superior manipulative skills, he has done something that surprises even Vader on Malachor.

Vader: ''You have unlocked the secret of the Temple. How did you accomplish this?''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

Of course, this was all Maul's doing, and his plan was going to work if he didn't underestimate the Blind Kanan and his extreme amplification through the Force (a possible oneness).

(Btw, we can note that finding Kenobi is also a something that would impress Vader a lot, considering Vader never did that with all of his time and despite having all the resources of the Empire, Maul finds Kenobi in a very short time by using the Sith holocrons and the Dark Side magicks.)

Even after facing a near-death situation after getting pushed back from the temple by an extremely amped / oneness attained Kanan Jarrus,

Freddie Prinze Jr. :''Kanan vs. the Grand Inquisitor, that's Kanan releasing his fear and his attachment, and sort of being like water. This is a Force overpowering moment.''

''So for that moment between the two of them, that's a Force explosion. Kanan isn't controlling that, that's the Force dictating what's going to happen to him.''

Source : First Order Transmissions #197: Star Wars Rebels Finale Interview (2016)

Maul is still not defeated by the extremely amped Kanan Jarrus, and he steals Vader's ship and leaves Malachor.

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''Maul has not been defeated.''

Source: SW.com

For the people who are underestimating Kanan's Force potential, his death was important enough the draw the attention of even the Emperor;

Sidious: ''There has been a great disturbance in the Force. The death of Kanan Jarrus has altered the fate of Lothal, thought how I cannot say.''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 4 Episode 12 (2018)

Maul single handedly destroys a group of Rebel cell and then captures Hera Syndulla, Zeb and Sabine,

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Ezra: ''There must have been one heck of a fight.''

Kanan: ''I can smell the carbon scoring.''

Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 3 (2016)

Considering Dooku's bad experience with the Space Pirates, I would say slaughtering an entire crew of a Rebel cell is not bad at all.

Another example of his superior physical strength, and durability; when Kanan and the others were knocked out, Maul was already moving towards his ship.

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And in another example, Maul easily throws Kanan without even using the Force.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 3 (2016)

Another example on his superior physical strength. Overpowers a creature named Rathtar with his sheer strength.

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Source: Darth Maul 01# (2017)

Casually hides his presence in the Force from 2 Jedi Knights.

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Source: Darth Maul 01# (2017)

Maul even impressed an antique Force creature such as Bendu with his vast knowledge of the Force and the holocrons.

Ezra : ''A Sith, Darth Maul, has them. He wants it.''

Bendu : ''Oh. He would bring them together? Such a vergence carries grave danger. If two such powerful sources of knowledge are united, they will grant a clarity of vision beyond your kind. When joined, any secret, wisdom or destiny can be seen through the Force. One could bring much chaos with such hidden truths. I have seen it before.''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 3 Episode 03 (2016)

Which is a secret knowledge of the Force that I highly doubt Dooku knew.

Maul completely dominates Ezra's mind with TP even when Kanan was there;

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 11 (2016)
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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 20 (2017)

And Ezra is a very talented TP user who can manipulate others easily.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 1 (2016)

Another superior TP showing from Maul; he easily learns Kanan's past and the Holocron's place by entering inside the mind of Hera Syndulla.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 3 (2016)

He is a powerful TK user as well. He can pull a Space Shuttle from a significant distance.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)

Leaves behind a powerful Dark Side essence on Naboo;

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Source: Shattered Empire #3 (2015)

Now let's get to the point on why Maul is more skilled than Dooku in sabers;

Maul has ''Far Greater'' skills than the Grand Inquisitor. A former Jedi Knight.

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Dave Filoni : ''That's why I call it a cheat. It's a simple way to do something that Maul actually does. Maul has far greater skills. This guy can just stand there and can have a helicopter blade.''

Source: Rebel Force Radio interview (2015)

''Far greater: -You use the expression by far when you are comparing something or someone with others of the same kind, in order to emphasize how great the difference is between them.''

Btw, this hype is coming from Filoni, who we know he has some disliking about Darth Maul, and Filoni said Grand Inquisitor is close to Ventress before.

Deflects a cheap-shot attempt from Nightsister possessed Kanan Jarrus.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 11 (2016)

Physically pushes Kanan (amped by Nightsisters) back during the saber lock. He isn't trying to defeat Kanan Jarrus, due to Kanan being possessed by a nightsister ghost and Ezra telling Maul to not hurt Kanan.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 11 (2016)

And Possessed Kanan was strong enough to casually disarm SWR S3 Ezra.

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 11 (2016)

Dooku disarmed by Savage Opress and defeated in lightsaber duel.

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Source: The Clone Wars: What is a Sith Warrior? (2012)

We know Dooku has trouble with deflecting sheer strength based attacks, as we've seen from his duel with Savage Opress (also nightsister magic amped).

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 3 Episode 14 (2011)

Maul on the other hand, easily deals with a more powerful Savage Opress in a duel.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)

And Savage Opress is a threat to Dooku.

Dooku: ''I can sense him Grievous. That creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.''

Grievous: ''You consider him a threat?''

Dooku: ''He is a threat to all of us even the Jedi.''

Source: The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 21 (2012)

He deflects multiple blaster bolts from Sabine, Zeb and Hera when he was turned upside down. A very vulnerable position for a sharpshooter like Sabine.

Considering Maul's bad position (can't move his legs or his position), and considering that Sabine also had help from Zeb and Hera, I can safely say that this is harder than deflecting blaster shots from the best sharp shooters such as Jango Fett or Boba Fett,

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Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 3 (2016)

Don't forget that Sabine was skilled enough to defeat Fenn Rau in a shooting contest. Not only Maul faced a skilled shooter and two back-ups, he couldn't even move his legs on that position.

Dooku had been driven back by AotC Kenobi

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In the actual script AotC Kenobi drives Dooku back for a while.

''COUNT DOOKU thrusts. OBI-WAN steps back quickly, panting for breath. COUNT DOOKU (continuing) come, come, Master Kenobi. Put me out of my misery.

OBI-WAN takes a deep breath, gets a fresh grip on his lightsaber and comes in again. For a moment, he drives COUNT DOOKU back. Then Dooku's superior skill begins to tell again, and he forces OBI-WAN to retreat.''

Source: Attack of the Clones Script (2002)

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Compare that to Maul's performance against the 2 Jedi Knights.

''The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once, flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.''

Source: The Phantom Menace Script (1999)

Dooku loses to Quinlan Vos

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Yeah, you didn't hear wrong.

Dooku loses a duel to Quinlan Vos due to Vos's unpredictability.

''Vos all but danced around Dooku, forcing the older man to whirl, strike, and block from every side. And then-there it was.

Dooku overextended-only a trifle-and the next thing Kenobi knew the count's lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back.''

Source: Dark Disciple (2016)
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Official art from the Clone Wars.

While Maul is the master of the most unpredictable Lightsaber form; Juyo.

Form VII: ''Juyo / Vaapad: The most aggressive and unpredictable form.''

Source: Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)

''Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form IV's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII skills of Darth Maul.''

Source: Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber (2002)

Maul against Quinlan Vos

At some point in the Clone Wars, Maul faces off with the same Vos who defeated Dooku,

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And he isn't losing it like Dooku did. Official art from the Clone Wars concepts.

Dominates Qui-Gon in a duel

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Source: The Phantom Menace (1999)

Qui-Gon is one of the best swordsmen in the order.

''Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order.''

Source: The Phantom Menace Novelization (1999)

Dominates Post- AotC Kenobi in a duel

Kenobi fights offensively in this fight, and fails utterly.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22 (2012)

Once again stops an enraged Kenobi who attacks Maul's apprentice, and before that duels with both Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)

Kenobi is a more powerful Jedi than Anakin at some point in the Clone Wars.

"Take him!" Ventress ordered the super battle droids.

She ran for a side exit. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi, but she knew Obi-Wan was even stronger.''

Source: The Clone Wars Adapted Novelization (2009)

Maul ragdolled Kenobi with the Force more than once.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 5 Episode 16 (2013)

Against 4 Magnaguards

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Grievous sends his personal Magnaguards to deal with Maul.

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Source: Son of Dathomir #1 (2014)

And Maul defeats them with ease.

Against Darth Sidious

Maul kicks Sidious in a duel.

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 5 Episode 16 (2013)

Kicking Sidious in a duel is alone a feat that is a worthy of recognition, other than Maul, only Mace Windu (and Yoda in the comics) managed to kick Sidious during a lightsaber duel.

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Their portrayals against Mace Windu

Dooku escapes from a duel with Mace Windu.

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- Source: Clone Wars Obsession 5 (2005)

Maul takes both Mace Windu and Aayla Secura at the same time. And kicks Aayla while fighting with Mace Windu.

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Source: Son of Dathomir #3 (2014)

Against Darth Vader

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Maul can contend with Vader according to the source, not only with Sidious.

''IT'S A CLOSE CALL, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills'' ....

Source: Star Wars Comics UK Magazine 04 (2014)

Filoni said Maul is in the Vader realm before, and he also states that Maul has the same type of focus that Vader has;

Dave Filoni : ''The Force is what holding his body together...''

''The Sith are consumed with never wanting to die. It's a completely physical thing to them. There is no afterlife for them. Everything exists in the now. They have to stay alive. They fear death more than anyone. That's what makes them so twisted and evil. So Vader holds on to life at the edge of the lava flow, because he is such a condemned for Obi-Wan, such an anger for whose happens in his life. And that same type of focus, hatred what sustains Maul.''

Source: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season Five Premiere (2012)

Maul's superior portrayal to Adult Ahsoka

Maul's portrayal as a fighter was superior to Adult Ahsoka.

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Source: Rebels Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

First of all, let's remember what they said about Adult Ahsoka's skills before ;

Prinze : ''I would put say is top 3, 4 as far as fighting , combat skills Jedi of all time.''

Source: Collider Videos

Filoni : ''We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor.''

Source: SW.com

And we know, Vader at this time of period, is more powerful than Anakin, especially more powerful than TCW S4 Anakin and even he can choke Dooku during the duel;

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Source: The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 18 (2012)

Vader becomes far more powerful than TCW S4 Anakin;

"His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."

Source: Star Wars Lords of the Sith (2016)

This is 5 years after the RotS. It took only 5 years for Vader to become more powerful than his RotS Anakin self, and he was much more powerful than TCW S4 Anakin when he dueled with Ahsoka.

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Source: Rebels Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

Considering Ahsoka's competitive duel with Vader, (which is against a more powerful opponent than Dooku has ever faced) it's obvious that Dooku couldn't even replicate what Ahsoka did against Vader, and he would be overpowered easier against Vader who also ranks much better than Dooku on the top 5 red-lightsaber users list.

And unlike Dooku, why Maul has better portrayal than Adult Ahsoka?

Evidence on Maul > Adult Ahsoka #1

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''Kanan agrees to split the group up, the logical choice pairing Maul with the weakest of the Jedi''

Source: Sw.com

- Maul matched with the weakest.

The logical choice to match Ezra with the strongest fighter, who is Maul. It's the basic logic that says Maul was more powerful than Adult Ahsoka.

Evidence on Maul > Adult Ahsoka #2

Maul's superior portrayal against 3 Inquisitors, even if you disagree with that statement, it's easy to figure out that Maul was stronger than Adult Ahsoka;

He takes on 3 Inquisitors with ease, kicking them one by one, which is a feat that Adult Ahsoka couldn't do.

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Maul easily blasts the Inquisitor Eighth Brother with the Force.

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Maul easily dominates the two Inquisitors when Ahsoka and Kanan couldn't.

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Maul easily kills the Inquisitor Fifth Brother.

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Source: Rebels Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

Evidence on Maul > Adult Ahsoka #3

Maul senses Vader in the Force, before Ahsoka could.

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Considering Ahsoka's relationship with Vader, she could've sensed Vader's presence earlier than Maul. However Maul senses Vader first, which suggests that Maul's Force powers were greater than Ahsoka's.

Another example on this how he easily kills the Inquisitor Seventh Sister with the Force.

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Source: Rebels Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

Evidence on Maul > Adult Ahsoka #4

Maul moves faster than Adult Ahsoka, and saves Ezra from the Inquisitor Eighth Brother.

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Evidence on Maul > Adult Ahsoka #5

Adult Ahsoka runs away from the duel against Maul. And Maul was controlling the duel.

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He even turns his back to Adult Ahsoka at some point.

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Source: Rebels Season 2 Episode 22 (2016)

All these evidences suggest that Maul was more formidable than Adult Ahsoka, and he would perform even better against Vader, who we already know more powerful than Dooku even when he was weaker as of Anakin the TCW / RotS.

Summary for the Maul > Dooku:

Other than the list which says Maul > Dooku,

  • Not only Maul's dark-side knowledge, and his TP showings and his Sith holocron knowledge was better, he has better physicality and sheer will.
  • Sidious stated that Maul was a loss while Dooku was a proton torpedo.
  • Maul has been stated to be in the Vader realm.
  • Maul portrayed better than Adult Ahsoka (who contended with Vader).
  • Maul portrayed better than Dooku against Mace Windu.
  • Maul dominated TCW S4 Kenobi in a duel.
  • Maul kicked Sidious in a duel.
  • Maul portrayed better than Dooku against Savage Opress.

-Arguments for the Ben Kenobi duel-

First of all, let's remember what Kenobi says about Dooku's skills;

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"Come on, then, Kenobi! Come for me!" he said. "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself."

"Do you mean Count Dooku? What a curious coincidence," Obi-Wan said with a deceptively pleasant smile. "I trained the man who killed him."

With a convulsive snarl, Grievous lunged.''

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization (2005)

Joking aside, let's see what happened after 17 years between Maul and Kenobi;

First of all, let's debunk that Filoni's stupid statement first;

Debunking the Filoni's earlier statement

''I wanted to create a lot of similarities in the way the fight happened and the way Obi-Wan beats Maul. I felt that with Maul, any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he’s as good as Obi-Wan and I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think Maul ever accepted a path of selflessness and enlightenment and in the end, never getting over his need for revenge, and his anger and the way his life worked out is what undid him.''

Source: ign.com

That's a stupid statement because it means that Adult Ahsoka is very close to Darth Vader because the duel lasted longer than the Maul vs. Ben Kenobi duel, that also contradicts with Maul's superiority over Adult Ahsoka (and even when they dueled each other Ahsoka never showed any superiority against Maul) who lasted much longer against Vader who is slightly better than Ben Kenobi.

He retconned that stupid explanation with multiple other statements by saying that the duel was a mental duel not a physical one, or how Kenobi faked his lightsaber stance by using Qui-Gon pose in order to deceive Maul during their duel.

The preparation

Ben Kenobi was prepared for the duel;

Ben Kenobi : ''One doesn't survive as long as I've by being foolish or unprepared. Maul is an old adversary, and a persistent one at that.''

Source: Star Wars Rebels: Season 3 Episode 20 (2017)

The concept

The concept of the fight was different than the usual duels due to marketing purposes.

Dave Filoni : “It was a much-discussed thing on how that was gonna go down,” Filoni said. “The instinct would be, and probably, I admit, the expectation, is for some kind of prolonged lightsaber battle. But I’ve done a lot of prolonged lightsaber battles over the years and I think what’s most important about any kind of confrontation is what’s riding on it. What’s the tension going into it? It starts to matter less and less how you swing a sword or how creatively you do it if there’s not a lot riding on it.”

Source: io9.gizmodo.com

He also mentions about the duel being an homage to the Seven Samurai duel.

Dave Filoni : ''If you talk to a lot of people that sword fight they’ll tell you, people that are very good don’t have long fights. It’s very quick. And so that scene it’s an homage to the Seven Samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight but I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters just don’t have growth. Yes, it’s exciting as an audience member but it’s not a really believable thing. Storytelling has to evolve.''

Source: Rebels Recon #3.20: Inside "Twin Suns" (2017)

The duel played on their head

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Henry Gilroy : “When you’ve fought someone many times, and you’ve faced off, you kind of know each other’s moves. So if you think about it the build up to this confrontation and the actual lightsabers hitting each other is actually longer because they’re basically playing it out in their heads.”

Source: Rebels Recon #3.20: Inside "Twin Suns" (2017)

According to the producer, it was a mental duel and it was longer.

Animation supervisor states that the duel is a game within a game.

Keith Kellogg : ''It's much more about foot work and the thought process that Obi-Wan has. It starts out as young Obi-Wan and then we shift him to sort of what Alec would do when he was fighting and then the very last one you should look back at the Phantom Menace you can see what Qui-Gon's doing. We just sort of moved him just a little bit right after Maul changes his. It's kind of a game within a game almost.''

Source: Behind The Scenes: Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul | Star Wars Rebels (2017)

Maul underestimates Ben Kenobi

Sam Witwer : ''Because of that fight, Maul goes "Oh my god, I completely underestimated him"

(...)

Maul is absolutely certain this old man has past his prime, he just doesn't understand this is an active Jedi Knight who is serving the Order even though it doesn't exist, he is doing the most important thing in the galaxy right now.''

Source: Rebel Force Radio Interview

Another evidence is how Maul sees Ben Kenobi;

Maul : ''Look what has become of you, a rat in the desert.''

''I've come to kill you, but perhaps it's worse to leave you here, festering in your squalor.''

Source: Rebels Season 3 Episode 20 (2017)

Maul directly goes for the killing move, it was his choice

Maul underestimates Kenobi, and directly goes for the killing move (which is Maul's own three strike technique), even then;

Dave Filoni : ''Qui-Gon part came late, when I was looking at it again. Originally, in that movie, when Kyuzo strikes the guy down, it's a one strike with the lightsaber.

But when we got animated, Keith Kellogg and I were looking at it, it's just Maul's technique to go, really quick, one-two-three, so, it didn't feel like Maul does get a shot at all. So block-block, then he (Maul) goes for that move (the move that he took down Qui-Gon), that's where I decided to put that move in.''

Source: Star Wars Celebration 2017

When you compare it to the Seven Samurai duel, the duel should've been a one-shot duel.

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Filoni changes the original ''one-shot'' scene from Seven Samurai, because it didn't feel like Maul gets a shot at Kenobi unlike the samurai that attacked Kyuzo in the movie.

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Kenobi uses that Qui-Gon posing scene and he has to deflect those 2 extra strikes from Maul just to make it a more competitive duel than the duel that happened in the Seven Samurai.

Now if the duel was an homage to the Seven Samurai, and if the duel was meant to be a one-shot strike, and adding two extra lightsaber clashes and adding a special hilt bumping move, (which comes from Maul's past) how competitive this duel really is considering the old style one-shot movie concept?

Kenobi's trap for Maul

To easily explain, Kenobi waits at the defense against Maul, while Kenobi attacks Vader, who is a more powerful opponent than Maul.

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Source: A New Hope (1977)

It doesn't make sense to attack a more powerful opponent while waiting on the defense against a weaker one. Which means that Kenobi was indeed trying to deceive Maul with that Qui-Gon pose.

Henry Gilroy : ''And the amazing thing is, the move that Maul tries after the initial exchange, he actually attempts the move that killed Qui-Gon Jinn. He tries to basically bash him with the hilt.”

Source: Rebels Recon #3.20: Inside "Twin Suns" (2017)

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Question : ''The move that he took down Qui-Gon ?''

Dave Filoni : ''Yeah, also visually tells the story that Obi-Wan paid attention, you know that moment was kind of put into his brain and that he could defeat.''

Source: Star Wars Celebration 2017

Now ask yourself this, if Maul never attacked Kenobi and if he never used the same hilt bumping move, could Kenobi defeat Maul by waiting at defense?

We've seen how Maul dominated Kenobi in the Clone Wars when Kenobi tried to fight offensively. Kenobi had to wait at defense and he had to deceive Maul with the Qui-Gon pose.

And don't forget that this is the same Kenobi that dueled with Vader at the Death Star.

He literally says that Obi-Wan defeats Maul only because of his prior knowledge about Maul, not due to superior skill.

Ben Kenobi's amplification against Maul

Filoni directly says that Obi-Wan is unbeatable ''in that moment'' because he is protecting someone else (the most important thing to him; Chosen One) in the end.

Dave Filoni : ''When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can't defeat that.''

Source: io9.gizmodo.com

Summary for the Ben Kenobi duel:

  • Kenobi was amped (unbeatable in the moment) against Maul.
  • Kenobi was prepared for the duel.
  • Maul underestimates Ben Kenobi and believes he could kill him quickly.
  • Kenobi deceived and lured Maul with a fake Qui-Gon stance.
  • The duel was mental and played out on their head. It wasn't a physical duel.
  • The concept of the duel was from the Seven Samurai duel and they changed the original one-shot strike scene and they've added two extra saber strikes for making the duel more competitive than the original one.
  • Kenobi had to wait for Maul's attack to win the duel, without the anticipated hilt bump move he couldn't win.

The duel was extremely circumstantial and can't be used, on the contrary, to think that a Kenobi level duelist (who is contending with Vader even better than Adult Ahsoka) needed a trap and amplification to win against Maul, which only shows that how formidable and skilled Maul is.

Maul ranks better than Dooku as a sword fighter and not only in skill, better than him everything except for TK, and he is the same level with the Kenobi in terms of skill (without Kenobi's amplification and the deceiving tactic) who can match with Vader (who is way above of Dooku) in a duel.

Respect. For detailed information; https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-respect-thread/129270/

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DoctorDaMn

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@erkan12: that list is wrong right off the bat...

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In-sidiousvader

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Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

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dark-sith123

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This is disgusting.

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Erkan12

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Edited By Erkan12

Damn, I knew I should've blocked the dookie fanboy darth-sith123.

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Erkan12

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@in-sidiousvader said:

Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

Did you read the arguments?

@erkan12: that list is wrong right off the bat...

Says who?

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In-sidiousvader

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@erkan12 said:
@in-sidiousvader said:

Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

Did you read the arguments?

Yes and they are good, but this source has been stated to be subjective and having Vader > Sidious is asinine

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RGR

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@erkan12: Nice post. Rebels characters are criminally underrated IMO, though I disagree that Ahsoka>Dooku in lightsaber combat. I believe her good performance against Vader is due to a stylistic advantage and for drama purposes. Overall, I think that Rebels Maul is more or less on par with Tyranus as a duelist, with CW Maul being over him.

@erkan12 said:
@in-sidiousvader said:

Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

Did you read the arguments?

Yes and they are good, but this source has been stated to be subjective and having Vader > Sidious is asinine

Where was this stated?

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In-sidiousvader

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@rgr said:

@erkan12: Nice post. Rebels characters are criminally underrated IMO, though I disagree that Ahsoka>Dooku in lightsaber combat. I believe her good performance against Vader is due to a stylistic advantage and for drama purposes. Overall, I think that Rebels Maul is more or less on par with Tyranus as a duelist, with CW Maul being over him.

@in-sidiousvader said:
@erkan12 said:
@in-sidiousvader said:

Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

Did you read the arguments?

Yes and they are good, but this source has been stated to be subjective and having Vader > Sidious is asinine

Where was this stated?

No Caption Provided

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RGR

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Edited By RGR

@in-sidiousvader: To me what Matt Martin is saying is that being ranked higher does not mean you are always going to win, as it depends on many things, such as mindset, styles, etc. He goes on and directly compares it to sports, where a "worse" team can pull a win off against a "better" one. Also he's probably talking about all-out fights, which the list is not adressing.

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In-sidiousvader

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@rgr said:

@in-sidiousvader: To me what Matt Martin is saying is that being ranked higher does not mean you are always going to win, as it depends on many things, such as mindset, styles, etc. He goes on and directly compares it to sports, where a "worse" team can pull a win off against a "better" one. Also he's probably talking about all-out fights, which the list is not adressing.

Well it just says top five red lightsaber wielders so if you wanted that could be inferred as all out

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AlexTheBoss

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Some good arguments are made here, but like others have said, that list is questionable due to Vader being above Palpatine.

Dooku vs Maul is a close fight that could go either way, so if a canon source said Maul was above Dooku I would accept it, but Vader in the movie flat out said he couldn't beat Palpatine, George said Vader was 80% of Palpatine, and Palpatine was able to play with Maul and Savage at the same time while Vader had more trouble against Ashoka than Palpatine did against the superior duo. Pretty much all evidence points to Palpatine>Vader and that list having Vader above Palpatine discredits it.

But I won't say you are wrong about old Maul being able to beat Dooku in a duel, because nothing really flat out goes against that.

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RGR

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@alextheboss said:

but Vader in the movie flat out said he couldn't beat Palpatine, George said Vader was 80% of Palpatine,

This could be due to Force power. Also, Leland Chee said the following:

No Caption Provided
@alextheboss said:

Palpatine was able to play with Maul and Savage at the same time while Vader had more trouble against Ashoka than Palpatine did against the superior duo.

I'm not so sure, since both Savage and Maul landed kicks on him. Once the former was dispatched, then yes, Sidious' performance against Maul was better, but we have to take some things into account:

1. Ahsoka had a stylistic advantage against Vader.

2. She was retreating, as she wanted to keep Vader away from the holocron, while Maul was pushing against Sidious, which should result in a shorter duel.

3. Ahsoka's fight with Vader may have been extended for drama, just as Maul vs Vizsla or Anakin vs Barris.

4. Maul had been knocked unconscious via Force push, mere seconds prior to his duel with Sidious, so that may have hindered him.

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americanspeeddemon

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@erkan12: My biggest problem with the list is that Vader is above Sidious. Vader was tagged by Eeth Koth, struggled with Ben Kenobi and Ahsoka Tahno, failed to kill Kanan and Ezra, etc. He has never fought more than 1 jedi master at a time in Canon and doesn't do nearly as well vs masters as Sidious.

If Vader> Sidious in sabers than Ahsoka, Ben Kenobi and Eeth Koth> Mace Windu and Yoda in sabers and that makes no sense.

EDIT: also didn't this list come out before Old Maul was revealed? Isn't it more likely this is referring to Clone Wars or even TPM Maul.

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DarthWill3

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I concur wholeheartedly, with explanations of my own:

  1. Tyranus is simply no Sidious. Maul came close to defeating the most powerful Dark Lord in his time twice.
  2. Since the Inquisitors' lightsabers are labeled as cheats, Old Maul could've killed all three of them in a matter of seconds if he wanted to, just as Sidious did to Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto. Even Tyranus could've accomplished this.
  3. Vader may have fought a simulation of Maul in his Padawan days, but a simulation is way different from the real thing. And don't forget that in Resurrection, Vader killed the Maul doppelganger through desperation, not skill. Just goes to show who's the superior fighter.
  4. If Tyranus is a master of Makashi, then:
No Caption Provided

"Fighting skills: Master of Juyo, Jar'Kai and Teräs Käsi"

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine 13

Come a long way since Naboo, hasn't he?

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RGR

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@americanspeeddemon: The fight with Eeth Koth took place a couple years after ROTS and many before Rebels. Still, he was someone who stalemated Grievous while having an arm injury, and was implied in the Vader comic to be more powerful than before due to him using the Dark Side. Also not seeing why Ahsoka/Obi-Wan, both of whom lost their duels against Vader, would have to be > Windu/Yoda, both of whom disarmed Sidious.

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CuckedCurry

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Maul dies to Dooku.

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Richard96

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Please lock this atrocity...

One who defines Darksith a dooku supporter has evidently lost his mind...

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Grinningf0x

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Dark Sith is a dooku fanboy???? Lmao that’s obviously not true

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Edited By Erkan12

@redheathen@jerrah13

@americanspeeddemon said:

@erkan12: My biggest problem with the list is that Vader is above Sidious. Vader was tagged by Eeth Koth, struggled with Ben Kenobi and Ahsoka Tahno, failed to kill Kanan and Ezra, etc. He has never fought more than 1 jedi master at a time in Canon and doesn't do nearly as well vs masters as Sidious.

If Vader> Sidious in sabers than Ahsoka, Ben Kenobi and Eeth Koth> Mace Windu and Yoda in sabers and that makes no sense.

EDIT: also didn't this list come out before Old Maul was revealed? Isn't it more likely this is referring to Clone Wars or even TPM Maul.

The list says ''even when he slowed down by his armor'' , it means that the list accepts that Vader's armor is slowing him down, so no one is denying that.

Eeth Koth has much better feats than Tiin or Kolar in the canon, overpowering Grievous with a wounded arm in a duel already makes Koth a very formidable opponent, and still Vader easily dealt with the guy which is very impressive. I honestly don't see even Fisto is replicating what Koth did against Grievous, with wounded arm overpowering Grievous is a very neat accomplishment.

@darthwill3 said:

I concur wholeheartedly, with explanations of my own:

  1. Tyranus is simply no Sidious. Maul came close to defeating the most powerful Dark Lord in his time twice.
  2. Since the Inquisitors' lightsabers are labeled as cheats, Old Maul could've killed all three of them in a matter of seconds if he wanted to, just as Sidious did to Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto. Even Tyranus could've accomplished this.
  3. Vader may have fought a simulation of Maul in his Padawan days, but a simulation is way different from the real thing. And don't forget that in Resurrection, Vader killed the Maul doppelganger through desperation, not skill. Just goes to show who's the superior fighter.
  4. If Tyranus is a master of Makashi, then:
No Caption Provided

"Fighting skills: Master of Juyo, Jar'Kai and Teräs Käsi"

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine 13

Come a long way since Naboo, hasn't he?

Fair enough. His mastery of Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi is giving him an upperhand.

@alextheboss said:

Some good arguments are made here, but like others have said, that list is questionable due to Vader being above Palpatine.

Only in sabers. I think Vader can take it due to his durability with his armor, his skills are already on par with Sidious or even better. Strength goes to Vader as well.

Sidious has only the speed advantage.

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RedHeathen

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Edited By RedHeathen

@erkan12 I can't really read all this right now. I keep getting sick; I'm sorry. This is of interest to me, and just a quick question: Why doesn't what Adam Bray said to me help out with this topic? I posted in the other thread (where the other comicvine member got upset with me for supposedly derailing the thread) Bray's twitter statement that the list was canon.

@in-sidiousvader said:
@rgr said:

@erkan12: Nice post. Rebels characters are criminally underrated IMO, though I disagree that Ahsoka>Dooku in lightsaber combat. I believe her good performance against Vader is due to a stylistic advantage and for drama purposes. Overall, I think that Rebels Maul is more or less on par with Tyranus as a duelist, with CW Maul being over him.

@in-sidiousvader said:
@erkan12 said:
@in-sidiousvader said:

Keep trying Erkan but everyone has already forgotten about that list

Did you read the arguments?

Yes and they are good, but this source has been stated to be subjective and having Vader > Sidious is asinine

Where was this stated?

No Caption Provided

I was part of this twitter conversation, and you haven't posted everything that was said. Martin ended up saying that this was only his opinion and not canonical. He admitted that all my counterpoints, which are not in your screen capture, were "absolutely" correct.

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Kilius

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Maul uses his double-bladed lightsaber to create a terrifying vortex of energy.

Cool Dooku could do that at age 13.

There was a flash of surprise on Lorian's face when he noted the coldness in Dooku's gaze. He stumbled backward as Dooku came at him furiously, his lightsaber a blur of color and motion.

Source: Legacy of the Jedi


One was a ''loss'' and the other one was a ''proton torpedo''. Despite losing both, Dooku was always meant to be a placeholder while Maul wasn't.

Doesn't mean any thing. Maul was a lose at the time because there was no one better. Then Anakin came into the picture. Anakin was more valuable to Sidious than to both of them. Hence why he never sought to bring back Maul to his ranks.

Let's see what the Author of Son of Dathomir comic said about Maul vs. Dookie duel before;

That's just an authors non canonical opinion, Bartlow only played a very minor role in developing Maul and his character, his opinion has little weight. Even if it does he also stated Dooku was more powerful in another quote. His reasoning is that Maul has more willpower and endurance, which is true. Nothing he say's implies that Maul is more skill or more powerful. And that's prime Maul.

You're augments on dark side knowledge are irrelevant and speculative. We know Dooku received the same darkside training from Sidious. He had access to rare holocrons including Darth Andeddu's. And he had rare and exclusive access to the forbidden holocrons of the Jedi Temple.

Considering Dookie's bad experience with the Pirates, I would say slaughtering an entire crew of a Rebel cell is not bad at all.

Context. Dooku didn't have his lightsaber and Maul himself was shot in the leg by the thinned ranks of the same group with his lightsaber.

Maul has ''Far Greater'' skills than the Grand Inquisitor. A former Jedi Knight.

Dooku has easily mopped the floor with Ventress. Being far more skilled than a Ventress level opponent is nothing special relative to Dooku.

And we know, Vader at this time of period, is more powerful than Anakin, especially more powerful than TCW S4 Anakin and even he can choke Dookie during the duel;

Context Anakin was enraged, and you left out the where Dooku pushes him back physically then zaps him with lighting. In season 6 Dooku was stalemating both Anakin and Kenobi. In DD neither could gain an advantage. Even in ROTS he floored him with a kick while choking Kenobi. Dooku could easily exploit the mobility weakness just like Ashoka.

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Erkan12

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@kilius said:

Maul uses his double-bladed lightsaber to create a terrifying vortex of energy.

Cool Dooku could do that at age 13.


According to the list, not as good as Maul.

@kilius said:

One was a ''loss'' and the other one was a ''proton torpedo''. Despite losing both, Dooku was always meant to be a placeholder while Maul wasn't.

Doesn't mean any thing. Maul was a lose at the time because there was no one better. Then Anakin came into the picture. Anakin was more valuable to Sidious than to both of them. Hence why he never sought to bring back Maul to his ranks.

Right, you know Dooku as of TPM is older than Maul as of TPM right? Do you know why Sidious didn't choose Dooku as an apprentice instead of Maul before TPM?

Sidious already gave you the answer.

@kilius said:

Let's see what the Author of Son of Dathomir comic said about Maul vs. Dookie duel before;

That's just an authors non canonical opinion, Bartlow only played a very minor role in developing Maul and his character, his opinion has little weight. Even if it does he also stated Dooku was more powerful in another quote. His reasoning is that Maul has more willpower and endurance, which is true. Nothing he say's implies that Maul is more skill or more powerful. And that's prime Maul.

You're augments on dark side knowledge are irrelevant and speculative. We know Dooku received the same darkside training from Sidious. He had access to rare holocrons including Darth Andeddu's. And he had rare and exclusive access to the forbidden holocrons of the Jedi Temple.

He is an author of a SW comic book which featured both Maul and Dooku.

@kilius said:

Considering Dookie's bad experience with the Pirates, I would say slaughtering an entire crew of a Rebel cell is not bad at all.

Context. Dooku didn't have his lightsaber and Maul himself was shot in the leg by the thinned ranks of the same group with his lightsaber.

Maul still didn't get captured by Pirates like Dooku did.

@kilius said:

Maul has ''Far Greater'' skills than the Grand Inquisitor. A former Jedi Knight.

Dooku has easily mopped the floor with Ventress. Being far more skilled than a Ventress level opponent is nothing special relative to Dooku.

Did they say Dooku has ''far greater'' skills?

@kilius said:

And we know, Vader at this time of period, is more powerful than Anakin, especially more powerful than TCW S4 Anakin and even he can choke Dookie during the duel;

Context Anakin was enraged, and you left out the where Dooku pushes him back physically then zaps him with lighting. In season 6 Dooku was stalemating both Anakin and Kenobi. In DD neither could gain an advantage. Even in ROTS he floored him with a kick while choking Kenobi. Dooku could easily exploit the mobility weakness just like Ashoka.

Why Anakin was enraged in TCW S4 duel?

The point stands; Sub-ANH Vader >>>> TCW S4 Anakin. There is at least 1 tier difference between them.

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ElSebbe

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Dooku slaps Maul. Please lock.

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In-sidiousvader

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Edited By In-sidiousvader

@elsebbe:

To be fair even though this list is wrong and non applicable in Canon (which is what this "thing" is referring to) Maul is at least equal if not more powerful than Dooku

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Vitisid

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@in-sidiousvader: Nono u ar wrong! Doku is way mour powerfull then Maul. he is evenn 5 time strongerr then darh vader

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In-sidiousvader

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@vitisid:

@erkan12 said:

No (babbles in-cohesive Gibberish) Blah Blah Blah Maul > Dookie and Vader combined... and edges Sidious.

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In-sidiousvader

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ElSebbe

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Edited By ElSebbe

@in-sidiousvader: ROTJ Vader is 80% of his master, which means Sidious>Vader.

Even considering Ventress to be in the top 5 is ludicrous. This list does not hold any merit whatsoever.

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In-sidiousvader

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@elsebbe:

No it doesn't but Maul could potentially be better than Dooku (in Canon) is all I was trying to say

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ElSebbe

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@in-sidiousvader: I can't see Maul holding off Yoda like Dooku did in AOTC, regardless of his incarnation.

But if he realized his full potential, then yes.

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In-sidiousvader

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ElSebbe

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@in-sidiousvader: Yoda was not holding back. Several sources confirm this.

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Erkan12

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@elsebbe:

1- Dooku was Yoda's former Jedi padawan, we know even Mace Windu was massively holding back against Sora Bulq because he was his Jedi friend. It would be idiotic to think that Yoda wasn't holding back against his former apprentice Dookie.

2- In another source, Yoda said he doesn't want to hurt Dookie.

Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

Dark Rendezvous

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ElSebbe

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Edited By ElSebbe

@erkan12: The AOTC novelization describes both of them are going all out and numerous scans support this as well.

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Richard96

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Edited By Richard96

The levels of sordidness of Erkan are incomparable.

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Erkan12

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@elsebbe: Can't you read?

Yoda : "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

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ElSebbe

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@erkan12: Come back after you've read the AOTC novel.

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Erkan12

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Edited By Erkan12

@elsebbe: Yeah, you do that.

A wave of Dooku's free hand sent a piece of machinery flying at the diminutive Jedi Master, seeming as if it would surely crush him.

But Yoda was ready, waving his own hand, Force-pushing the flying machinery harmlessly aside.

(..)

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

(..)

But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
Attack of the Clones Novel

Yoda never goes all out, and he never used the Force offensively, all he did was fighting defensively and still Dooku was no match.

No Caption Provided

''Realizing he is no match for Yoda, Count Dooku makes for his ship.''

Attack of the Clones Graphic Novel

The novel specifically says that Yoda had no interest in fighting with Dooku, but Dooku had left him no other choice.

Yoda isn't even following Dooku, and fighting defensively only and ''effortlessly'' blocks Dooku's every stroke. With each move Dooku's attacks grew ''more desperate''.

''A startled expression crossed Dooku’s face at the utter failure of his attack. Then his eyes narrowed. He lowered his hands and replied, “It is obvious that this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber.” As he spoke, he reignited his weapon and whirled it in the formal salute that Yoda remembered teaching him some fifty years before.

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.''

Attack of the Clones Jr. Novelization

Gillard already said that both Maul and Dooku are an 8, and Yoda is a 9, saying that Dooku or Maul can contend with Yoda is nothing but a horse shit. Yoda was holding back against his former Jedi apprentice. Like it or not.

If Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows (as he did against Sidious), Dookie would get blitzed.

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@erkan12: The Jr. Novelization is non- canon. None of the excerpts you provided says that Yoda is holding back; they only prove his superiority over the Count. Yoda himself says in the novel that he cannot allow Dooku to escape. Hell, even Fisto who's a T7 was able to block a some of strikes from Sheev. Yoda is not speed-blitzing Dooku. If you go by the movie, which is be the primary choice, it's depicted that The Count is only bested by Yoda, if his old master puts time and effort into it, hence why he is able to hold his own for some time before feeling fatigued and fleeing.

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Erkan12

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@elsebbe said:

@erkan12: The Jr. Novelization is non- canon.

So is the novel. Lmao, they are all legends.

@elsebbe said:

None of the excerpts you provided says that Yoda is holding back;

Anyone with a brain would easily understand that.

It's simply idiotic to say that Yoda was going all out against his former Jedi apprentice. When Kenobi didn't want to fight with Anakin and he was hindered and when Mace Windu was holding back against Sora Bulq.

Yoda even says he doesn't want to hurt him, lol.

@elsebbe said:

Hell, even Fisto who's a T7 was able to block a some of strikes from Sheev.

So what happened to your argument that Dooku could hold-off Yoda but Maul can't?

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xolthol

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Really interesting... You have provided interesting point for Maul > Dooku.

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RGR

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@erkan12: I've been wondering why Maul went up against Mace and Aayla, while Dooku faced an on-paper weaker pair in Obi-Wan and Tiplee. This is strange considering Maul's hatred for Obi-Wan. Perhaps both Sith Lords felt they stood a better chance that way?

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Erkan12

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Edited By Erkan12

@rgr: Dooku fans would've gone crazy if Dooku took Mace in a 2 v 1 in that fight, that's for sure.

Maul said that Dooku should join him as an apprentice, and he said before he disappointed with Dooku when he first saw him on the issue 01, so Maul also knows that he is better, and it's only natural for him to take on a more powerful duo than the one that Dooku took.

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RedHeathen

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Edited By RedHeathen

@elsebbe said:

@erkan12: The AOTC novelization describes both of them are going all out and numerous scans support this as well.

wrong. it absolutely does not. i've posted that scene verbatim and discussed each point of the scene. only at one moment is there any indication that yoda was strained *defensively*, but that immediately changes. yoda never, ever tries to harm tyranus.

@in-sidiousvader I tagged you in reply to the conversation with martin on twitter. i wanted to make sure you were aware of that.

@erkan12 this is a great thread. my apologies i have yet to read it in its entirety, but i've had a chance to read most comments-some of which are incredulous to say the least. the unwillingness of people to place maul anywhere near tyranus is astounding regardless of the obvious stated intentions/accolades in legends and canon.

i've grown really tired of maul as a character, tbh, but there is no denying his strength and ability. the biggest indication of maul's power and ability compared to tyranus is the fact that he was placed on the same tier as 83 year old tyranus when he was only 22 years old. regardless of what anyone has to say about gillard, the unequivocal fact remains that the scaling was used by lucas when he made the prequels. i understand that being on the same tier doesn't mean one person is equal to another, but it gives us an indication. from that point we move forward and add in the plethora of accolades. on top of this, we add canon lists such as the one in the op, which IS canon as stated by the author and chee and others in the story group other than martin, who admittedly only gave his opinion in his tweet.

above, someone has also used my twitter conversation with chee regarding lucas. what gets me is how people take convos out of context to serve their own purpose. also, chee gave his opinion, which contradicted the original intent of what the movies were and lucas' vision. there was nothing in new canon that contradicted what we were discussing in regards to lucas, so there was nothing official. PLUS (before anyone says "but chee said it") chee's personal opinion or statements made on twitter, etc, are no longer considered canon. all of those guys (disney/star wars) are now saying whatever is posted in such manner is not canon. it's no longer only chee in charge of continuity. this is part of the information that was conveniently left out of the screen cap of my convo with martin that someone posted above (out of context).

i cannot believe how blatantly people continue to use my conversations in arguments on cv that involve me but yet think they can get away with using partial screenshots or cherry picked quotes. i know the discussions in full, and in no way can any of them be used to argue against maul being equal to or superior against tyranus. i'm not sure that they can be used to argue for him,either, other than the list has been stated to BE CANONICAL. It's been said and published multiple times that the book is canonical. I'm sure that most cv's are upset with the fact that maul was intended to be as great if not greater than tyranus, but most any legends or canon publication has at least implied the powers and abilities of maul. are there enough feats to argue in maul's favor when weighed against tyranus'? no, and that certainly does not logically indicate that tyranus > maul. it doesn't indicate the opposite, either, but again, there is no logical reason to argue this point considering the often repeatedly accolades of maul. if someone wants to use the "but chee said" argument, then we can argue that chee has stated that what ever is printed most recently or most often to use as precendence. again, it has been repeatedly published that maul is one the most skilled, deadly, highly trained, etc, sith in all of sith history. i'll argue again that tyranus has nothing saying what a great sith he was. sure he was a great jedi, but he himself canonically said that he was more powerful as a sith. his statement in no way indicates that he is on the short list of some of the most (insert maul accolade here) in all of sith history.

people argue potential. a great comparison is vader. vader never was to reach his potential as of mustafar (this also contradicts what chee said in the screen cap), but this doesn't mean he wasn't the second most powerful force sensitive in the galaxy. it also doesn't mean that he can't be better at sabers than sidious. just because maul was derailed from realizing his vast potential doesn't mean that he can never be as great of a sith as tyranus, and this is especially true considering the fact that there is no indication that tyranus was ever in the league of the greatest sith ever. there's nothing to indicate otherwise, either, but to say that maul was less of a force power than tyranus based on nothing official means absolutely squat.

and contrary to some personal opinions on this forum, in no way whatsoever is it logical to conclude that majority opinion equates truth. it is gross fallacy to believe such a thing.

as to abilities and lightning, there are three legends sources, all were c canon, that said or showed maul could use lightning. in addition to that, he has *red* lightning. the only other people we know of who had red lightning were Son, Tenebrous, dark Luke, and some other dude whose name escapes me, but they were all very powerful force sensitives.

EDIT: Darth Desolus was the other Sith who used red lightning.

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I don't have time to read this same cancer you've been spewing for several years now, but to answer the question in your title: because the author has no obligation to adhere to what is either explicitly or implictly portrayed in the mythos. It's an opinion probably independent of any other sources, which is why in Star Wars, there are often 10 books saying one thing about a specific topic and 10 other books saying the complete opposite. So, aside from the fact that relying on a single source to base your argument off of is an extremely weak case, the source itself is practically worth nothing when it has Vader > Palpatine.

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Edited By Kilius

We know Dooku has trouble with deflecting sheer strength based attacks, as we've seen from his duel with Savage Opress (also nightsister magic amped).

Which is inconsistent throughout the media. Even in Canon Dooku has dealt with Anakin's strength based blows and Vos's white hot fury without difficulty. In Legends Dooku handled Grievous who has strength feats rivalling Savage. Savage himself has had less success against Ventress and Kenobi, two beings Dooku has physically dominated in their primes.

Dooku loses a duel to Quinlan Vos (a regular Jedi Knight) due to his unpredictability.

And in Legends Dooku defeated Sora Bulq a master of the unpredictable Vaapad with the aid of Tholme easily. He also defeated Mace Windu when both were pre-prime and he had already mastered Vaapad. And he taught and trained Grievous in the unpredictable Juyo. Maul using Juyo is nothing that will surprise Dooku.

Dooku escapes from a duel with Mace Windu.

A fight that was brief and indecisive. Dooku withdrawing out of disinterest means nothing and the magnaguards acted on their own initiative; Dooku never gave any verbal command. Dooku cut the fight short with Season 6 Anakin, but he still believes he's superior in ROTS. In the ROTS novel he actually wished Mace were there instead of the duo, a possible indication he has no fear of Mace combatively speaking.

Maul takes on not only Mace Windu and his side-kick Aayla Secura at the same time.

A brief indecisive engagement. And the circumstances were different. The Sith had no choice but to stand their ground and fight until an opportunity to escape the battle opened itself. Once it did they promptly withdrew, just like the Boz duel.

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Edited By Space_Hitler

@darthwill3:

Tyranus is simply no Sidious. Maul came close to defeating the most powerful Dark Lord

The only thing he did is land a kick. After which Sidious threw him around like a ragdoll.

the most powerful Dark Lord of all time

FTFY.

Sidious is repeatedly touted as the GOAT Sith in the mythos and has the feats to back it up. I thought this was common knowledge.

Vader may have fought a simulation of Maul in his Padawan days, but a simulation is waydifferent from the real thing. And don't forget that in Resurrection, Vader killed the Maul doppelganger through desperation, not skill. Just goes to show who's the superior fighter.

To be fair, Vader was substantially pre-prime. Yes, it shows Maul's superior skill but it would've been very different if Vader resorted to TK. The Prophets of the Dark Side even said as much. They're surprised by Vader's ability to beat Maul, claiming that it's "impossible" yet they say that Vader would destroy them if he went all out, but that doing so would diminish him in the eyes of The Emperor.

And both of the comics you're referring to are part of Legends. The list being talked about is referring to is canon and so are the rest of the sources in the blog. Last time I checked, none of those are part of Legends.

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@space_hitler:

When Sidious wanted Asajj Ventress eliminated, he gave the task to Tyranus. So why didn't he send Tyranus after Maul once he discovered his location? Why did he choose to intervene personally? Could it be that Tyranus wasn't strong enough to defeat Maul on his own?

Back to Maul's near-victory. Let's take a look at his final test on Hypori, when he was just seventeen years old:

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers. He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth. [...]

I lunge forward and sink my teeth into his hand. I strike like an animal, so quickly he doesn't have time to step away. I taste his blood and spit it back at him in contempt.

Yes, he will kill me. But I will die with his blood on my lips.

Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

---

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth. [...]

As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbed Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

---

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death—but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master—by wanting to kill his own master—Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord—Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

---

Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. “You’ve fought him in a serious way?”

“I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber.”

Darth Plagueis

Considering what we've read here, what Sidious told Plagueis is a profound understatement. Especially since Maul had already suffered injury by the time Sidious arrived, fresh. Like when Obi-Wan and Anakin were exhausted when they caught up with a fresh Tyranus on their first encounter:

Alone, he knew he had little chance of winning against Dooku. Not only was Dooku a master swordsman, he was rested and fresh, while Obi-Wan was already weary from the fight at the arena. But I have to try, he thought. [...]

Dooku gave ground, surprised by the ferocity of the attack, and for a moment Obi-Wan hoped that he might beat the Count after all. But even drawing on the Force for strength, he was too tired to keep the pace for long.

Attack of the Clones junior novelization

And if you take a closer look, you'll find Maul forcing Sidious into his back foot. There are also similarities between this saberlock and and the Force lock within the Senate Chamber:

No Caption Provided

Right at the end, you'll see Sidious smiling. He was clearly struggling for a bit before finally pushing Maul back. Just like when he thought he was actually going to defeat Yoda later on... until he nearly got knocked off the Senate pod.

Concerning Resurrection, you might want to look up 20 Most Memorable Moments of the Expanded Universe in Star Wars Insider 83, which lists the fight between Vader and the Maul doppelganger. Leland Y Chee can confirm it in his blog.

Your Honor, here's my proof.

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