@erkan12: Yes but he is only bloodlusted person there. This could do anyone who is force sensitive. Assaj throw entire person when she was around 4 years old in the air. And bloodlusted Maul was able to kick back Sidious.
We'll find out who would win in issue 2 of Son Of Dathomir!
Well, I suppose. I'm fine with whoever wins because it's close enough.
I honestly think they should make it a dead-even fight that ends inconclusively with both of their armies interrupting it or something. I'd be fine with Maul getting knocked around a bit by tk or lightning if he was then portrayed to have a strength advantage. But they should just be made even in my eyes.
@i_like_swords: In Shadow Conspiracy his legs were stated to have shorted out. Apparently he escapes or something. You'll find out in issue 1 of Son of Dathomir. There might be multiple fights between Maul and Tyranus in SoD, honestly. I expect at least one between Maul and Grievous, as per the description, and I can assume Maul would win that one.
@shootingnova: Shadow Conspiracy the novel? It's arriving at my house in a couple days woo hoo.
Man I hate prosthetics.. wish they could create some plot device like Maul having some kind of material that protects the electronic layer of his legs or something. He's had them chopped off too many damn times!
But yeah.. more fights the better. Imagine it ended up as Grievous andDooku vs Maul o.O
Where do you want them to take Maul after SOD? I don't really like the ties they keep giving him to the criminal underworld but it could be cool seeing him become an extremely powerful crime lord post-ROTS in his waning years.
@i_like_swords: I was thinking that they were going to kill him off at the end of SoD in a well-written, tragic ending. I think he just lost his momentum as a character, and he's just dragging on and on.
@shootingnova: Just wish they'd stop associating him with Sidious and let him strike out on his own for a bit.. killing him in a comic book will be a terrible idea. Such an unworthy ending to a great character.
Alright people Beezle's in the building. A few things to address. Wolf and others who have talked about Vader's and Anakin's strength in comparison. Anakin WAS physically stronger or at least on par with RotJ Vader because he had the force enhancing his strength just as Vader had cybernetics. Also Erkan and other people who are giving Maul the majority in this battle can you please refrain from calling the opposing side biased or fanboys or just insulting them in general. Thank you guys. :)
Anyways I'm reserving judgment for now but backing Dooku slightly if I had to choose a side. If you'd like a full analysis I'll post below. :)
I am not calling anyone biased on this one, since it is really close fight. I can respect the opinion about Dooku, you can see i already made some analyses about Dooku as well. But my point is, Dooku has some advantages and disadvantages. For example, Maul can't overcome against Obi-Wan's defensive ataru-soresu hybrid with only dueling skill (he can overcome with force and he did), On the other hand Dooku can't defeat physically strong and aggressive oppenents in only lightsaber duel (with force he can) such as Anakin or even Savage, while Maul is master at that. Maul's h2h combat skills and durability is the most impressive speciality of his. So Dooku and TCW Maul are in same league but in this (imo) versus Dooku has disadvantage.
@erkan12: I agree with your analysis on Obi Wan vs Maul and I sort of agree with you Dooku vs Maul analysis but I think you are overestimating Maul's advantage because of his strength and Dooku's weakness and underestimating the factor of Dooku's higher skill force power and speed and reflexes. It IS a close battle but I think by what I've read people who back Maul and people who back Dooku will just have to agree to disagree on the victor and we can team up and slap anybody who believes its a stomp either way. :P
I am not calling anyone biased on this one, since it is really close fight. I can respect the opinion about Dooku, you can see i already made some analyses about Dooku as well. But my point is, Dooku has some advantages and disadvantages. For example, Maul can't overcome against Obi-Wan's defensive ataru-soresu hybrid with only dueling skill (he can overcome with force and he did), On the other hand Dooku can't defeat physically strong and aggressive oppenents in only lightsaber duel (with force he can) such as Anakin or even Savage, while Maul is master at that. Maul's h2h combat skills and durability is the most impressive speciality of his. So Dooku and TCW Maul are in same league but in this (imo) versus Dooku has disadvantage.
If you won't call me a Dooku fanboy, I'd like to address the fact that Dooku has beaten Anakin before, and Anakin's speed, skill and strength feats (I'm not referencing TCW, I'm referencing general EU) exceed Maul's by an appreciable degree. The other thing is that Maul uses Form VII, which is very aggressive but is leaves him exposed to Force attacks which is dangerous considering how Dooku is more powerful in the Force, and if Lightning hits Maul, then that round goes to Dooku because Maul will lose his legs.
@shootingnova:'s analysis has been shown to be the most reliable thus far which isn't surprising given the OP. Dooku's resourcefulness in Force Powers from TK to lightning, superior fighting technique and better speed feats should enable him to edge out a majority over Maul's aggressive fighting style and better strength feats.
Oh no, this fight again. Didnt we have other Maul vs Dooku threats?
Dooku wins after a hard fought battle IMHO.
And saying Vader is more powerful than Anakin is like saying i know more now about the carreer i studied than when i was starting it. If we put Vader vs Anakin both with same age and experience, Anakin curbstomps Vader. Even normal Anakin vs Vader would be a bit debatable. Speed gives a huge lead.
Oh no, this fight again. Didnt we have other Maul vs Dooku threats?
And saying Vader is more powerful than Anakin is like saying i know more now about the carreer i studied than when i was starting it. If we put Vader vs Anakin both with same age and experience, Anakin curbstomps Vader. Even normal Anakin vs Vader would be a bit debatable. Speed gives a huge lead.
1. That was TPM Maul vs Dooku.
2. Anakin is not stomping Vader at all. I'm really tired of addressing this. People are always suggesting that one character is vastly more powerful than the other, or vice versa. It's getting old. Nothing indicates this.
Vader has more emotional control over himself, more durability, more telepathic ability, and more esoteric powers - but most of that isn't helping much in a fight. Furthermore, Vader is not a lot stronger than Anakin was.
In strength, Anakin has torn apart spider droids with his bare hands, struck against Ventress's blade hard enough to shatter stone beneath them, crushed the hand of a Magnaguard, thrown blows with the force of a meteor strike, etc. Conversely, Vader has torn down crystalline pillars, slammed down people hard enough to shatter stone, torn doors off ships, etc. Yes, they are about even in this regard.
In speed, Anakin has fought fast enough to fill Count Dooku's entire line of vision with the light of his blade, encase himself with the light of his blade, generate afterimages/afterglows, fought fast enough to appear in multiple places at once, deflected blaster fire from miniature armies (which is both a feat of skill and speed), fought imperceptibly fast, dodged lightning, reacted to sub-light speed ships and so on. Vader has thrown his blade around his body to form a shield, deflected blaster fire from miniature armies, drawn his blade faster than thought, fought imperceptibly fast, moved faster than Obi-Wan (by Ferus's judgement, which may not be accurate), moved fast enough to seemingly vanish, etc. Vader has comparable speed, and has replicated a few of Anakin's feats ad verbum, but even so, Anakin has a few feats such as filling Count Dooku's entire line of vision with his blade's light, encasing himself with his blade's light and fighting fast enough to appear in several places at once which clearly indicate Anakin is faster. Agility is obviously in Anakin's favor - sources have already told us that Vader's cybernetic armor reduced his actions anyways.
Telekinetically, they are also about parallel. Anakin has moved Conqueror-class dreadnaughts, lifted and hurled boulders the size of huts, hurled Tusken Raiders thirty meters, manipulated platforms before his prime and still with little effort, thrown trees and tree branches, stomped Asajj Ventress with the Force, stomped Magnaguards with the Force, formed tornadoes of sand, and so forth. Vader has collapsed cathedrals, crushed massive droids, knocked down titanic trees, thrown around V-Wings, lifted and crushed massive tank-sized machines, crushed Jedi hearts, torn off parts of wall, ceilings, floor and other objects at a room to hurl at Ferus Olin, choked Olin into unconsciousness, thrown people several yards into a wall, torn apart platforms, hurled miniature armies with the Force, etc, so they are indeed rivals with one another in this category too. Force Scream is an involuntary power, but I might as well cover it anyways. Anakin has collapsed a thirty-meter tall and ninety-meter wide dome, while Vader has unleashed Force Screams that imploded droids, melted durasteel, cracked apartment walls, torn out parts of ceilings, etc. Anakin appears to have greater area of effect with his Force Scream, while Vader appears to have more potency when used against specific things. They should still be at least equal, or Anakin is ahead here.
In dueling skill, they are even. Anakin has fought evenly with Dooku (by means of Djem So, but the effects of Djem So are quite overrated), outfought Ventress, sparred evenly with Obi-Wan, outfought Cin Drallig, outfought Serra Keto, stalemated Obi-Wan on Mustafar while being hindered, casually slain Magnaguards, etc. Vader has outfought the Dark Woman, Celeste Morne, Roan Shryne, outfought multiple Jedi on Kessel, dueled evenly with Ben Kenobi, and so on, all up to and around the time surrounding ANH, which, while impressive, is not on Anakin's level, especially since sources have outright told us that at this point, Vader was a mere shadow of what he once was. By TESB, however, he not only outfought TESB Luke, but was listed as a far more formidable fighter than he was in ANH, with the RotJ novelization further stating that he was at his most powerful in RotJ, indicating improvement between TESB and RoTJ as well. So they are about even.
So really, Vader was not vastly more powerful, and he only possesses a few advantages which are less important in a fight. Furthermore, Anakin would win a majority of a fight between the two. So Ventress contending with Anakin consistently is not a low showing, it is evidence that she can contend with Vader.
@shootingnova: I did say Anakin vs Vader was a debatable match. But if Anakin would have continued being Anakin or a Darth vader version without being crippled, we would have Darth Vader with more speed and melee abilities, but the same force powers. how is that not a curbstomp. And its also debatable that in full conditions a non crippled/robot Darth vader would have been able to learn faster.
@linark: If you're suggesting Anakin at his full potential, then I suppose so, although hypothetical elements don't make for good discussion. I suppose I did misinterpret your comment, but in my defense, your own wording was rather ambiguous.
@shootingnova: i did say "And saying Vader is more powerful than Anakin is like saying i know more now about the carreer i studied than when i was starting it." ofcourse Darth Vader is mroe than a match for Anakin. He has more experience and power.
Which translates to our current fight: People tend to dismiss experience over youth. Youth has its pros, but if youth/stamina was as important as so many people say in this forum (this applies to other threats too, not only SW) experienced SW force users wouldnt be considered the most overpowered users. SW has shown a lot of times how experience wins fights. And how experience enables a force user to become powerful. Maul may be very well trained, but Dooku has decades of experience as jedi, and years of sith heavy study, including korriban holocrons. Besides, he is reknowned to be the only one capable of defeating Mace in melee combat. I say even a melee expert like Maul cant match Dooku.
@linark: Darth Vader is not more than a match for Anakin at all. Vader is not more powerful and experience means nothing, honestly. Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr lost to Kun, Vader lost to Luke, Vitiate lost to the Jedi Knight protagonist in TOR, Yoda lost to Palpatine, Dooku lost to Anakin and Qui-Gon lost to Maul. Age or life based experience is, for all purposes, irrelevant. Experience has only ever been a marginal factor at best.
@erkan12: I agree with your analysis on Obi Wan vs Maul and I sort of agree with you Dooku vs Maul analysis but I think you are overestimating Maul's advantage because of his strength and Dooku's weakness and underestimating the factor of Dooku's higher skill force power and speed and reflexes.
Agree Dooku has a little higher force power, but because of force lightning. And I don't think that would be problem in this fight, since Maul tasted the force lightning of Sidious, and once he resisted Nightsister Mighella's force lightning with ease. Maul knows very well what a force lightning is. (Unlike Savage) In case of lightning attacks, i am sure Maul would stop it with his lightsaber.
About TK, i don't see Dooku's superiority. Both of them lifted very heavy stuff (Maul moved eta class shuttle in TCW) , and both of them used force choke on someone strong as Obi-Wan Kenobi.
It IS a close battle but I think by what I've read people who back Maul and people who back Dooku will just have to agree to disagree on the victor and we can team up and slap anybody who believes its a stomp either way. :P
Maul's durability and ability to tank Lightning has never been in question. It's how his legs will fare after getting short-circuited by the electricity. He has to either dodge or block it.
Dooku is definitely superior in TK. Maul manipulating twenty-meter shuttles is impressive, but he was also technically enraged and fueled by that rage, not to mention requiring quite a lot of effort for that. Dooku rather casually collapsed a bridge that was larger than a shuttle:
Then there's lifting a dozen obelisks:
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He lifted about a dozen metal obelisks with only moderate effort, while an enraged Savage with maximum effort could only lift two obelisks and by this time he was already capable of knocking huge ships over cliffs without being so enraged, and this was also only with moderate effort. This should be above TCW Maul's TK, but not by much.
And again, while Dooku's advantages in the Force aren't very much, Maul's own exposure to Force powers (as Juyo is weak to Force powers) might make it more important than it normally would be.
@linark: Darth Vader is not more than a match for Anakin at all. Vader is not more powerful and experience means nothing, honestly. Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr lost to Kun, Vader lost to Luke, Vitiate lost to the Jedi Knight protagonist in TOR, Yoda lost to Palpatine, Dooku lost to Anakin and Qui-Gon lost to Maul. Age or life based experience is, for all purposes, irrelevant. Experience has only ever been a marginal factor at best.
Well, Exar Kun is top 10 all time and Vodo was short of holding back against his padawan. and wasnt Odan-Urr old as hell? like VEEERY old? ok theres a limit to experience vs youth, obviouslly. I mean people like Dooku that can still stand in a fight but have a lot of experience behind them. Vader even if powerful is still crippled and its luke we are talking about (im so tempted to say plot requirements too haha). Vitiate is literally game mechanics and plot (even so, the character you play has some insane feats if we go on game lore/plot), if we consider his force feats he should have been able to deal with the character. Palpatine has a lot of experience and was pupil of plagueis himself, so i dont think the diference between yoda and Sidious in terms of experience is THAT big as it would be in a Maul vs Dooku fight. Dooku lost to the force chosen. (as a question, do you have any clue wether if its true or not that Dooku was holding himself a bit by Palpatines demands? heard and read both sides) And Qui-Gon ill give it to you (even when that fight is still a bit silly, like that ending were Obi Wan "kills" Maul). But still, Qui-Gon wasnt in his prime. Dooku even with his age could hold against Mace in melee combat.
There are examples of my point:
-Dooku beating Obi Wan and Anakin without much sweat.
-Tenebrae defeating Revan, Scourge and Surik.
-Sidious beating Luke (before grandmaster luke)
-Yoda making Ventress' lightsabers useless with his TK
-Grievous, a fighter without force abilities but a lot of experience, defeating jedis.
-Most of the mandalores beating jedis.
-Jace Malcom defeating siths.
-Obi Wan managing to defeat Anakin. This is the best example of how experience beated power.
Experience will allways be crucial in any martial fight IMO. Unless you are in a state were you are too old allready, like Odan-Urr.
-Dooku beating Obi Wan and Anakin without much sweat.
-Tenebrae defeating Revan, Scourge and Surik.
-Sidious beating Luke (before grandmaster luke)
-Yoda making Ventress' lightsabers useless with his TK
-Grievous, a fighter without force abilities but a lot of experience, defeating jedis.
-Most of the mandalores beating jedis.
-Jace Malcom defeating siths.
-Obi Wan managing to defeat Anakin. This is the best example of how experience beated power.
Experience will allways be crucial in any martial fight IMO. Unless you are in a state were you are too old allready, like Odan-Urr.
Thoughts?
1. Dooku only defeated AotC Obi-Wan without much trouble, while Anakin still gave him pause, and both of them were far from their prime. They advanced by quite a margin over the Clone Wars.
2. Surik and Scourge were never beaten. Scourge backstabbed Surik, surprising Revan and so Vitiate defeated him. Vitiate never beat them all.
3. This hardly matters. Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time and is far more powerful than Tyranus.
4. Again, this is an issue of power, not experience. And Yoda is above Dooku, as well.
5. Grievous was mechanically and cybernetically enhanced to have vastly superhuman strength, durability, speed, reflexes and coordination. He was already a prestigious warrior, and received sustained training from one of the most skilled duelists of history.
6. When did this happen? Jango Fett could beat Jedi, for example, but not all Mandalorians. Technically speaking, they are among the most prestigious warriors for a reason, but beating random Jedi doesn't really mean much.
7. Jace defeated fodder, and he was the leader of a special contingent of Republic troopers that were pretty much the best. It's still not worth much. Malgus wrecked Jace with his powers.
8. Obi-Wan only fought evenly with a hindered Anakin who was fighting stupidly and suffering from CIS. He won because of Anakin's arrogance and emotions that hindered him profusely. Anakin has been regarded by objective sources and has the feats to prove he is above Kenobi under natural circumstances.
I addressed this here: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/battle-misconceptions-obi-wan-vs-anakin-1547403/
You really didn't prove anything. A number of your examples were just plainly irrelevant or misconceived, and you just ignored the points I brought up. As I said, experience is only a marginal factor at best.
@erkan12: It's already confirmed Maul will be facing Grievous and Dooku. I expect him to beat Grievous, especially because the story needs to flow.
Same here. Stomping Grievous with TK (like Windu did), would be nice. Looks like Dooku beating nightbrother tribe with force lightning, Maul has to show his force powers as well.
@erkan12: I suppose. Dooku looks funny in that artwork.... funny in a stupid way. LOL.
I'd like to see how Maul escapes from Sidious, though. I'm expecting some sort of twist at the end in which Sidious pretty much reveals that he planned it all along. I'm assuming that for sake of story, Dooku has to beat Maul to prove himself the worthier apprentice. If he doesn't win outright, he probably gets disarmed with a blade and wins with last-minute Force Lightning or TK or something. Either way, it would have to be an impressive fight.
@shootingnova: I figure Maul cant lose/die in his own comic but Dooku shouldnt decisively lose either. If it portrayed Maul with a strength advantage while Dooku was doing better with force, in an even fight that ends inconclusively, I'll be happy.
@i_like_swords: There has to be a sort of ending. Well, there are two more issues, so we might see them fight again. IE. Maul defeats Dooku in the second issue, Dooku defeats Maul in the fourth. Or something.
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