Darth Maul vs. Count Dooku

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Darth Maul : You abandoned the Jedi when you understood the Sith were gaining power. Now I suggest you abandon Sidious and serve me.

Count Dooku : Do you really believe there is any power in the galaxy that can stand against my Lord ? Then thousand Jedi Knights will try this and all will fail. What hope will your army have ? What hope will you have ?

-- Taken from Son of Dathomir #03

This is TCW Darth Maul vs. Count Dooku battle thread,

TPM / TCW differences are important for Darth Maul. Because after Maul's the clone wars revival, he has become even more powerful in every aspect.

Sources for the related information ;

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy (Novel)

“I am most impressed to see you have survived your injuries,” he said, the voice as rough and cracked as Maul remembered. “I used your training, Master,” Maul said. “And I have built all of this in hopes of returning to your side.” Sidious lifted his head slightly, and Maul saw his yellow eyes beneath the hood. They were as cold as space. “How unfortunate that you are attempting to deceive me,” Sidious said. “Master?” Maul asked. “You have become a rival,” Sidious declared.

But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him. Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core.

His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power. But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.

Another Source ;

The Clone Wars: Season 05 Episode 01

''You've grown so powerful...''

- Savage Opress

Another source ;

Darth Maul: Death Sentence (Graphic Novel)

''Darth Maul is being consumed by hatred. I imagine this hatred-- This rage-- Fueled him and kept him alive... And somewhere, somehow, that rage grew. As hard as it is to comprehend, padawan, coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger... And even more dangerous.''

- Jedi Master Salmara

Confirmation from the EU writer of Shadow Conspiracy, Jason Fry, he says that Darth Maul becomes more powerful in every aspect.

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I will compare them with these four features...

  • Lightsaber skill
  • Force abilities
  • Physical prowess
  • Dark Side knowledge

Lightsaber Combat

Darth Maul

It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won’t deny his mastery of the Jar’Kai technique.

- Darth Plagueis refers to Darth Maul's lightsaber style

Darth Maul is highly skilled in lightsaber duel, trained by Darth Sidious in Juyo & Niman, which drew heavily on volatile emotions and the dark side.

Maul is one of the most highly trained and skilled Sith in the history of the order ;

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between jedi knight and sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the battle for Naboo.

Source : Star Wars - Fact Files #01

Also he is very skilled in Niman / Jar'Kai lightsaber style. Maul's defensive skills are powerful as offense, he held two Ataru specialist such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time without trouble...

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Darth Maul is master at highly aggressive Juyo style ;

Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form IV's (Ataru) acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII (Juyo) skills of Darth Maul.

Source : Fightsaber - Insider 62

Maul can use Dun Möch techniques as well ;

Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

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''Your master, Qui-Gon Jinn. I gutted him while you stood helpless and watched. How did that make you feel, Obi-Wan ?

Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it ?''

- Darth Maul to Obi-Wan Kenobi

Source : The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22

Another example of Maul's dun möch ;

Darth Maul vs. Jedi Master Judd

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''Good. Give into that rage. Ignore the cries of pain from outside--''

- Darth Maul

Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence

Maul also had training in Niman lightsaber combat and the Jar'Kai dual-saber technique as well as mastery of the fighting style of Teräs Käsi. He also, like his arch-nemesis Obi-Wan Kenobi, incorporated a spinning attack move in his lightsaber fighting style. His speed was such that even Darth Plagueis himself was astounded by it.

He also outmaneuver in lightsaber duel, jedi master and one of the top duelist of the order Anoon Bondara and his padawan with ease.

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi'lek (Anoon Bondara) could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.

Source : Shadow Hunter

Darth Maul was one of the very few living lightsaber duelists who was powerful enough to duel Great Sith Master; Darth Sidious alone for more than a few seconds.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivate and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber.

Maul leaped forward, grabbed Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.

Source : Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul was starving and wounded when he did that.

Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. “You’ve fought him in a serious way?” Reconstructed vocal chords and trachea imparted a metallic quality to his voice, as if he were speaking through an enunciator. “I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand.”

Source : Darth Plagueis Novel

Lastly, during their ferocious duel on Mandalore, Maul used his jar'kai (niman) technique against Sidious, with his lightsaber and the darksaber.

Lightsaber throw another option for Maul in combat ;

Darth Maul kills Jedi Master Ko Solok with an lightsaber throw technique...

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Source : The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

Unlike the traditional dueling techniques of most Jedi, Maul combined his swordsmanship with martial arts and hand-to-hand combat skills a combination which made him a nearly unstoppable dervish of destruction.

Darth Maul's unortodox lightsaber and martial art combination... He hits Qui-Gon Jinn's head with his ligtsaber hilt and then kills him...

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With that combination, he beat physically powerful fighters such as Savage Opress in a few seconds and he killed Master Jedi Bruu Jun-Fan who was master of force combat.

Another skill showing against TCW Obi-Wan Kenobi ;

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Another example of Darth Maul's unorthodox lightsaber and martial art skill combination...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01

Darth Maul blitzes the MagnaGuards... MagnaGuards have near lightspeed reflexes and they are produced only for fighting against the Jedi.

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Source : Son of Dathomir #01

Darth Maul vs. Darth Sidious...

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Maul held his own against Darth Sidious, kicked him from his torso, then blade lock.

Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 16

Darth Maul vs. Darth Sidious, without any force rage amplification (never mentioned in the Novel) Maul managed to react RotS Sidious in a one-on-one duel.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another,

Source : Shadow Conspiracy

Darth Maul vs. Mace Windu & Aayla Secura...

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Maul held his own against Mace Windu as well, kicked Aayla Secura while fighting with Mace Windu...

Source : Son of Dathomir #03

Darth Tyranus

''He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage... They are as natural to him as breathing.''

- Qui-Gon Jinn refers to his old master Count Dooku

Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. Though styles like Form I, Form III, and Form V were more practical in the age of blasters, Dooku's competitive spirit drove him toward the second form of lightsaber combat, Makashi, though he maintained a working knowledge of other forms as well. Exclusively utilized Makashi in combat, believing that duelists who devoted themselves to the study of multiple combat forms would never attain the same level of mastery as ones who devoted themselves to a single style.

Jedi Master Dooku early days...

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He appreciated the lack of acrobatics that the style possessed, and was fairly disdainful of combat styles that utilized extensive acrobatics like Ataru.

Count Dooku vs. 3 Nightsisters (while he was blind)

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 3 Episode 12

In combat, he used his bladework to redirect and deflect, rather than attempting to meet his opponent head on, fending off enemies with a minimal expenditure of energy before unleashing rapid and devastating counters, and was known to attack with a fencing-style thrust.

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However, like virtually all Makashi practitioners, Dooku had a great deal of difficulty producing any kinetic energy in his attacks.

Count Dooku's weakness against kinetic and physical attacks :

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

Source : Return of the Sith Novelization

Anakin pushed Dooku with a Djem-so maneuver and destroyed his balance...

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Savage Opress throwed Count Dooku with one heavy stroke...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 3 Episode 14

Upon joining the Sith, Dooku learned the Sith art of Dun Möch, a tactic that focused on disrupting an opponent's concentration by the use of psychological warfare.

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''Master Kenobi, you disappoint me, Yoda holds you in such high esteem…

Surely you can do better !''

- Count Dooku

Source : AotC Graphic Novel

Anakin exploited Dooku's weakness against physical attacks again...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 18

Conclusion ;

Darth Maul's lightsaber technique is combined with martial-arts and hand-to-hand combat skills (Teras Kasi), which he is one of the best at. This is what Dooku hates most in lightsaber duel... And TCW Maul become fast and physically stronger than his TPM version.

Darth Maul can win the lightsaber duel 7 of 10. Due to his usage of physical and kinetic attacks alongside with his lightsaber skill.

Physical Prowess

Darth Maul

Due to his Dathomirian heritage and his intense training at the hands of the great sith lord Darth Sidious, Maul was able to withstand immense amounts of physical pain, he even resist Nightsister Mighella's force lightning, and cut her to in half. In his early years, he was trained by former Death Watch commando, ''Meltch Krakko''.

Darth Maul rips durasteel binders with ease;

Behind his back, Maul flexed his wrists. The durasteel binders dug into his flesh, but the Sith Lord felt no pain. With a jerk, Maul pulled his arms apart. The binders shattered, scattering bits of durasteel all over the cell's filthy floor. The interrogator droid made an excited whirring sound. It had never seen a prisoner break free from a set of binders with such ease.

Source : Fury of Darth Maul

Darth Maul beats Savage Opress via physical strength, speed & martial art...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01

Darth Maul lifts Obi-Wan Kenobi with one hand only... It is very impressive considering the fact that Obi-Wan has good H2H combat feats.

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Source : TCW Season 4 - Episode 22

Darth Maul vs. Force Combat Master Bruu Jun-Fan...

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Jedi Master Bruu Jun-Fan's force combat abilities considered as ''unparalleled in the galaxy'' ... Then he met Maul...

Source : The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

Darth Maul fights against three meter tall, very experienced Wampa without using the force and his lightsaber, actually reaches in and tears open the thing’s chest...

Summoning whatever remained of his strength, Maul fired himself at the beast. Hooking his hands into claws, he plunged them through its fur, ripping into the soft tissue of its torso. The wampa screeched and wailed. Maul barely heard it. Shoving his hands deeper, he sank both arms in up to the elbow, beneath its rib cage and into its thoracic cavity, groping until he found what he was looking for—the slick, pulsating mass of its heart.

Source : Maul Lockdown

Darth Maul vs. Force Sensitive Drovian Silus, in a cage fight...

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Force sensitive Drovian Silus believed that he was unbeatable in the dampening field... Well, he was wrong... Darth Maul cracks Silus's left knee.

Source : Tales - Marked

Maul defeats Pre Vizsla (strongest death watch member) and his weaponry, despite the fact Maul didn't use any TK or TP ability. (Maul tried to win Death Watch's loyalty)

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As leader of the Death Watch, Pre Vizsla was the strongest member of the Death Watch and the strongest Mandalorian warrior in that time...

Vizsla's weaponry ;

  • Duel blaster
  • Darksaber
  • Catching Rope
  • Flamethrower
  • Cutter Disks
  • Grenades
  • Jet pack

Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 15

Darth Maul trained in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, and very disciplined

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Source : Essential Guide to the Force

Darth Maul vs. Jedi Master Judd, Maul uses physical attacks on Jedi Master Judd...

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence

Maul can defeat famous bounty hunters with his bare hands, like he did to Sugi.

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 14

After Savage's acknowledge on Maul become stronger at TCW (not only at TK, physicaly too), their survival shows us another feat about Maul's physical superiority.

In this scenes,

Darth Maul regains his consciousness earlier than his monstrous brother Savage ;

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Grievous vs. Darth Maul

Maul has dominated Cyborg Grievous physically, despite the fact Grievous has decent physical strength feats...

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Source : Son of Dathomir #02

Darth Maul vs. Darth Vader

Clone of TPM Maul, won the physical fight against Darth Vader...

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Source : Tales 09 - Vader vs. Maul

Speed is also Maul's speciality ;

Blur movements against Darth Vader...

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Another blur movement ;

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Komari Vosa (Dooku's former padawan) sees multiple attacks, from everywhere, all at once... Maul did this feat while wounded from a blaster shot to his right shoulder.

In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Source : Maul: Lockdown

Maul's blade is too fast to see for Vosa, and again Maul was wounded from his right arm here ;

He swung out at her, the dark side streaming so powerfully from him now that it

seemed to be pouring forth in great, explosive torrents. His blade was moving almost too fast to see.

Source : Maul: Lockdown

Maul is invisible unless holorecordings shown in slow motion ;

Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

Source : Darth Maul: Saboteur

Maul can take down five Sand People in the flicker of an eyelash ;

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Source : Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul creates a shield from his lightsaber and web of light ;

- But they did not prevent her from deflecting his strikes as he again moved within range, his twin blades spinning so fast they seemed to merge into a crimson shield.

- He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Source : Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Even Darth Plagueis acknowledges Maul's speed ;

The Zabrak’s fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

Source : Darth Plagueis Novel

Darth Maul moves incredibly fast ;

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Source : Essential guide to the Force

Darth Tyranus

Despite the fact he was in 80's, his physical condition was great. He has enough strength to kick Anakin away, while he was using force choke on Obi-Wan. Due to his mastery of makashi's elegant style, his old age makes no trouble for him in combats unlike Qui-Gon Jinn's Ataru mastery.

He has no handicap or illness.

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Count Dooku's speed is also astonishing.

Dooku held his own against Yoda and created blur images with lightsaber...

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Source : AotC Graphic Novel

He creates lace of light ;

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

Source : Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Dooku's speed is invisible ;

A twitch of the Force brought his lightsaber to his hand with invisible speed, its brilliant scarlet blade angled downward at his side.

Source : Revenge of the Sith Novel

Conclusion ; If we compare this two, Maul stomps about physical contest due to Maul's physical speciality despite that Dooku's has no handicap.

About speed, they are evenly matched.

Force Powers

Darth Maul

Darth Maul pulled his double lightsaber from his belt and held his thumb upon the ignition button. He took a deep breath and centered himself in the swirls and eddies of the dark side. Then, his power and concentration thus augmented, he thrust forward his free hand as though hurling an invisible ball.

The door shattered inward.

Source : Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Darth Maul hurled force sensitive Drovian Silus and used the force (force wave) for overloading the dampening field...

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Source : Tales - Marked

Darth Maul hurls Obi-Wan...

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After his revival, Maul's force powers grown even more powerful...

Darth Maul manipulates 10 men without trouble.

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Maul collapses the cave...

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence

Darth Maul uses the force to moving the Eta-class Shuttle...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 05 Episode 01

Darth Maul uses the force to grip on Obi-Wan Kenobi in a mid-duel...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 05 Episode 01

Darth Maul uses the force choke and force pull on Obi-Wan Kenobi...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 16

Maul uses a powerful force choke to Obi-Wan Kenobi and left him wounded.

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Source : The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

Darth Maul uses a powerful force blast on Obi-Wan Kenobi, which is collapsed the cave.

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 05 Episode 01

Darth Maul uses the force to cracking legs and twisting necks.

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence #03

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence #01

He can also use his force powers with deceive tactics, while he distracting Jedi Master Salmara, he used his TK power to unleash his brother Savage and this caused the death of the Jedi Master.

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence #04

Darth Maul can also use Heart Stun technique.

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence #03

Maul uses force choke to his opponent and then hurls him to another...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 14

Force wave to a droid army...

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Source : Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #01

Force wave to a group of battle droids...

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Source : Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #02

Darth Maul uses force blast to Grievous,

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Source : Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #04

Telepathy

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Maul compelled a guard into committing suicide (like a kamikaze) by having him blow up a grenade,

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Source : Darth Maul - Death Sentence #01

Darth Tyranus

''His knowledge of the Force was...unique.''

- Jocasta Nu refers to Count Dooku

Count Dooku defeats multiple Kiffar warrior with the force lightning...

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Source : Jedi - Count Dooku

As a Sith Lord, he sometimes combined telekinesis with the use of Force lightning or Force choke. Dooku had a notable ability to multitask, and used the Force frequently even in the midst of lightsaber combat.

Dooku also had knowledge of the Living Force, and used it once to heal himself of a deadly plague.

After his conversion to the dark side, Dooku mastered many of its more infamous powers. He was highly skilled with the ability of Force choke, using it to kill his former Padawan Komari Vosa and to incapacitate Obi-Wan Kenobi during their final duel.

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Another force choke to Quinlan Vos...

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Source : Clone Wars Volume 4

Dooku uses force choke to Anakin Skywalker...

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Source : TCW - Season 4 Episode 4

Dooku lifts heavy boulders...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 3 Episode 14

Dooku had a particular liking for the ability of Force lightning. He used it to incapacitate Anakin Skywalker on Geonosis and attempted to do the same to both Obi-Wan and Yoda, though the latter two were able to block it. Dooku would display his mastery of this power on numerous other occasions.

Count Dooku defeats Sora Bulq via force lightning.

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Source : Clone Wars Volume 8

Dooku uses force blast to the Pykes...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 6 Episode 10

Disarmed Dooku uses force lightning against Savage Opress...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 3 Episode 14

Dooku saved himself from Anakin with the help of his force lightning & TK...

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Source : The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 18

Telepathy / Beast Control

Dooku controls a krayt dragon via force powers.

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Source : Clone Wars Volume 9

Conclusion ; Despite the fact TCW Maul's force powers grown powerful, Dooku has experience advantage on force contest. Maybe Maul's TK even stronger than Dooku's TK, but Dooku's Force Lightning powers worthy of note which it saved him against nightsisters assassination, against Savage Opress and Anakin Skywalker's ferocius attacks,

Dooku wins the force contest 6 of 10 due to his Force Lightning.

Dark Side

Darth Maul

"Hatred is a hard thing to kill."

- Jedi Master Salmara refers to Darth Maul's survival technique

Darth Maul was little more than a being of pure hatred and evil, thanks to his harsh, severe training under his former master, great sith lord Darth Sidious.

After his near-death experience on Naboo, Maul struggled to remain alive through his all-consuming hatred for the Jedi who defeated him, and therefore lost his sanity in the process. Survival of Maul, even impressed great sith lord Darth Sidious...

''I believe Maul's rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the dark side so great, he simply refuse to die...''

- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Source : The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

Maul uses the dark side of the force for surviving...

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Source : The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

By the time Savage Opress found him on Lotho Minor, Maul had been trapped in a state of madness for roughly a decade.

''I am most impressed to see you have survived your injuries...''

- Darth Sidious refers to his former apprentice Darth Maul

Source : The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 16

After being repaired by Mother Talzin in both mind and body,enraged Darth Maul targeted Kenobi for revenge.

'' It has been soo long and my path has been soo dark. Darker than I ever dreamed it could be.''

- Darth Maul

Source : The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22

In addition, after he regained his strength, Darth Maul discarded his loyalty to Sidious, and declared an intention to exact revenge on both him and Count Dooku, the latter of whom he disdainfully referred to as a "Sith pretender."

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''Not like me. My darkness... My hatred... Is unending.''

- Darth Maul to Darth Vader

When Iktotchi telepath try to search Darth Maul's thoughts, Maul killed the telepath via dark thoughts...

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''...So...Dark...''

Source : Star Wars: Darth Maul

Darth Maul's Sith training allows him to detect a weakness at his opponent ;

His Sith training allowed him to spot weaknesses of character or constitution in each of the various beings he passed. He drew on his darkside instincts to guide him to the best means of carrying out his mission.

Source : Darth Maul: Saboteur

This feature of Maul can be very effective in this battle, considering the fact that Dooku has a certain weakness.

Darth Tyranus

Following the death of Qui-Gon at the hands of Darth Maul, Dooku finally left the Order. When the subject of Qui-Gon's death was broached, Dooku admitted to having had thoughts about running down the second Sith Lord to exact revenge. To Palpatine's surprise, however, Dooku revealed that his line of thought had quickly changed, and that he now sought a potential alliance with the Sith, as he believed that they shared his aim to reforge the galaxy.

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Source : Republic 63 - Striking from the Shadows

Conclusion ; I believe Maul embraces the dark side of the force better than Dooku, especially Darth Maul's survival proves this.

Dooku's knowledge on sith holocron is admirable, which was Darth Andeddu's holocron.

However Dooku's jedi past is disadvantage here. While Maul is fulled with pure hatred against Jedi and the ''Sith pretender''...

Final Conclusion ;

Maul certainly has advantages at physical & kinetic attacks in lightsaber combat, his unorthodox lightsaber combat style is combined with martial arts and kinetic strong-style, what is Dooku has weakness to it. That's gives a advantage to Maul, since he is one of the best at a physical fight in the Star War universe, and I believe his force combat feats exceeds both Anakin & Savage's feats. Also, I fail to see that Dooku is using TK attacks on Maul nor Maul is using it against Dooku, their TK feats are matched after Maul's TCW revival, as their speed. Dooku has a small advantage of dueling skill due to his makashi mastery, but since Maul can use his physical advantage on lightsaber combats, I fail to see that Dooku can overpower him via lightsaber combat.

In short, you need a kinetic power to defeat Dooku's ultimate makashi style, defensive or acrobatic styles like Soresu, Ataru, Shii-cho are completely ineffective against Dooku's sword mastery and his experience, that is why while Anakin and Savage could disarm Dooku while Obi-Wan or Ventress (makashi user) failed almost every time. Obi-Wan lacks offensive physical power to defeat Dooku due to his very defensive soresu style, while Anakin has offensive djem-so (what is relies on physical qualities) and after learning juyo Savage Opress could easily disarmed Dooku with powerful kinetic assaults as well. Maul has ; Niman (Jar'Kai) / Juyo / Martial arts mastery (Teras Kasi), niman is useless against Dooku's ultimate makashi.

However Maul's physical power based Juyo saber style can produce enough kinetic power to take down Makashi and it can even penetrate the defense of Soresu, what is something Djem-so style lacks. Djem-so also lacks the mobility advantage, what is Dooku gained advantage from it in their duel against Anakin, in Juyo's case, that's not the issue either, because Juyo is also a very mobile style unlike Djem-so.

''While its attacks eviscerate defenses -even the blocks of a Form III (Soresu) master-''

---The Jedi Path

Juyo (Form VII) employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Djem So.

Source : Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force

This is why, just like Savage's style, Maul has the advantage here,

His (Dooku) own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

Source : Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Also his physical attacks via martial arts ; kicks, punches, etc. can be very effective on Dooku's makashi as well, Maul's unorthodox usage of his martial art skills can be very useful against Dooku, because unpredictability, as we see from Dark Disciple Vos vs. Dooku duel, can be also very effective against him, and Maul is also very unpredictable fighter himself, as a master of Juyo lightsaber style.

Form VII: Juyo/Vaapad: The most aggressive and unpredictable form.

Source: Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know

It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr—the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs.

Source : Maul: Lockdown

However, there is a little possibility that Dooku can use his force lightning as a trump card like he did against Savage Opress or Anakin, but this is a very low possibility since Maul knows the nature of force lightning thanks to Sidious and as a master of several lightsaber forms he can easily deflect it with his lightsaber, if even he can't deflect it with a lightsaber, resisting to it is not a problem for him. Since Maul has very high pain tolerance due to his dark side knowledge, he proved himself to be highly resistant to the force lightning.

As for dark side knowledge, despite the fact Dooku studied the Andeddu's sith holocron, Maul's dark side knowledge is better, and the reason is his superior feats which is Maul's TCW survival (it's even impressed Darth Sidious) and killing a telepath via dark thoughts. And more importantly, Maul's Sith training allows him to detect any weakness on his rival, which can be very important factor in this battle.

Darth Maul wins this battle 6 / 6.5 of 10.

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Posted By deactivated-5c80832cdb7ee

Darth Maul wins this fight

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Posted By Strikerx

Very good analyse.

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Edited By Erkan12
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Posted By dorukesin

Maul

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Posted By Lobo11

As i said earlier, Maul stronger than Episode I, so he was already strong and he become stronger, plus Dooku has weakness with physical attacks in lightsaber duel, and Maul's speciality is this. 8 of 10 Maul wins.

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Posted By DARK_PASSENGER

I guess I'm going to have to be the odd man out. I believe Tyrannus would take this at least 7/10. Reasons: as a sword master he is usually equated to the likes of Windu who is only under Yoda as far as Jedi go. He is also more powerful in the Force IMO the way he casually lifts those Nightsisters, lightnings the hell out of them and tosses them out the window while being drugged is some pretty impressive display of power. Excellent analysis though

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Edited By Erkan12

@dark_passenger said:

I guess I'm going to have to be the odd man out. I believe Tyrannus would take this at least 7/10. Reasons: as a sword master he is usually equated to the likes of Windu who is only under Yoda as far as Jedi go. He is also more powerful in the Force IMO the way he casually lifts those Nightsisters, lightnings the hell out of them and tosses them out the window while being drugged is some pretty impressive display of power. Excellent analysis though

Thanks.

About Yoda and Windu, he escaped when he fought against Yoda at ''Episode II'' and at ''Obsession'' he escaped from Windu.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Dooku's lightsaber dueling skill a little better than Maul i agree. However Maul uses his physical / kinetic attacks and his martial arts while he duels, thats why i believe Maul has great advantage against Dooku, since his makashi weak against it and thats why he lost to Anakin. Otherwise i believe they are equal.

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Edited By ImBoredLetsDebate

The reasons you gave are kinda bad.

Pre-TCW Grevious' strength > TCW Maul's strength, and Dooku has had no problem defending and disarming Grevious. TCW/RotS Anakin's strength is >= TCW Maul's strength, and Dooku has been able to defend and disarm him well enough. So, Maul's strength is a non-factor.

Maul was tortured by Sidious' lightning multiple times and grew a huge resistance to it. Not saying that Dooku's lightning would have no affect whatsoever, but I don't think it would help very much. So, it is essentially a non-factor as well.

You said that Dooku has a weakness vs TK attacks in combat, then provided a .gif of him fighting 2 semi-skilled lightsaber combatants and 4 blades. That isn't evidence at all, since this is a 1v1. Also, Dooku is leagues ahead of Maul in lightsaber combat. Being able to 2v1 against RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan, the former having Maul-like strength, is a much greater lightsaber combat feat than anything Maul has shown, iirc. Then we have Dooku contending with Yoda in AotC, and Dooku having defeated Mace Windu at least once, and stalemated him multiple times. Maul has shown no feats like this. Also, Dooku's TK is more or less equal to Maul's.

Maul's strength is a non-factor, and he doesn't outclass Dooku in any other aspect.

Dooku wins at least 8/10

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Edited By Erkan12

The reasons you gave are kinda bad.

Pre-TCW Grevious' strength > TCW Maul's strength, and Dooku has had no problem defending and disarming Grevious. TCW/RotS Anakin's strength is >= TCW Maul's strength, and Dooku has been able to defend and disarm him well enough. So, Maul's strength is a non-factor.

Grievous failed to defeat Ventress, and Ventress failed against Savage. Thats why as physical ;

Maul >= Savage > Anakin > Ventress = Fisto = Grievous.

I don't know why are you thinking Pre-TCW Grievous is so strong, Windu stomped him easily.

Then we have Dooku contending with Yoda in AotC, and Dooku having defeated Mace Windu at least once, and stalemated him multiple times. .

Read the earlier post of mine, i showed that with pages, Windu and Yoda are not in same league with Dooku.

And as i said earlier, Dooku's style has great advantage against Obi-Wan, while he has weakness with Anakin, thats why Anakin overpowered him. And Maul can easily do the same with his greater power. There is paper-scissor-rock.

Plus 8 of 10 is ridiculous, if that, Sidious would send Dooku to Mandalore, but no he said to Maul ; ''You have become a rival.''

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Posted By ShootingNova

You've already made one of these threads.....

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Posted By Pharoh_Atem

You've already made one of these threads.....

Exactly. He's still using the same fallacious arguments to boot.

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Edited By ShootingNova

@dccomicsrule2011: I don't think you can flag blogs, so I might just flag the other one.

And I maintain what I said in the other thread. There is still nobody who has successfully refuted anything I said, and almost none that attempted (save for one who called me biased, but everything he posted was incorrect anyways).

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Edited By DARK_PASSENGER

@erkan12: there is a quote from a Sourcebook saying something akin to "there were only 2 adversaries that ever beat Mace in lightsaber combat one being Yoda who some believed was the Orders true sword master; and the other was Count Douku whose own style was archaic yet stunningly effective " not an exact quote but best I can do off the top of my head. I also don't see Mauls physical advantage to matter that much either. Douku was doing quite well against Anakin's Djem-So in RotS until Anakin started using his anger and it said he was using Force equivalent to that of "meteor strikes"(hyperbole I'm sure, but still) and he was able to keep up for awhile. So I'm still sticking to Tyrannus>Maul

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Edited By Erkan12


there is a quote from a Sourcebook saying something akin to "there were only 2 adversaries that ever beat Mace in lightsaber combat one being Yoda who some believed was the Orders true sword master; and the other was Count Douku whose own style was archaic yet stunningly effective " not an exact quote but best I can do off the top of my head. I also don't see Mauls physical advantage to matter that much either. Douku was doing quite well against Anakin's Djem-So in RotS until Anakin started using his anger and it said he was using Force equivalent to that of "meteor strikes"(hyperbole I'm sure, but still) and he was able to keep up for awhile. So I'm still sticking to Tyrannus>Maul

Yes absolutely it is.

But again, in Clone Wars, Anakin was choking Dooku ; his lightning saved him like against Savage.

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And i add some gifs at OP, you can see how Savage throwed Dooku. Dooku is good but, with this kind of enemies he has weakness. Otherwise against Obi-Wan or against Nightsisters, he did really good.

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Edited By DARK_PASSENGER

@erkan12: Anakin choking Douku doesn't mean Maul could. When Douku got pushed by Savage it was 2 on 1 though it's likely he was caught off guard. He may be an "apprentice" but he's a Sith Lord and was also a Jedi Master. I still don't see Maul taking Douku. The only advantage I can see Maul has is resistance to lightning and possibly stronger telekinesis

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Edited By Erkan12


Anakin choking Douku doesn't mean Maul could. When Douku got pushed by Savage it was 2 on 1 though it's likely he was caught off guard. He may be an "apprentice" but he's a Sith Lord and was also a Jedi Master. I still don't see Maul taking Douku. The only advantage I can see Maul has is resistance to lightning and possibly stronger telekinesis

I don't think Anakin can physically neutralize Savage Opress ''that easy'' like Maul did. Or other of his physical feats.

And about 'caught off guard' no, Dooku purposely avoid from Savage's attacks. Watch that fight and you can see it.

I believe that Maul is better about ''physical fight'' than Anakin, you can think otherwise, I will not push my ideas on you.

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Posted By DARK_PASSENGER

@erkan12: I certainly think he could. Although he wouldn't use a mirror hand(at least that's what it looks like) to do it. He would/could grab his hand and crush it though like he did to Ventress and a Magnagaurd before. I haven't seen anything from Maul to suggest he is Anakin's physical superior as far as strength or speed go.

Fair enough I won't push my ideas on you either just debating/discussing :-) all in fun

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Edited By Erkan12

Don't believe that Dooku can fight this long against Sidious ;

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Edited By ShootingNova

LOL. Are these gifs all on google, or do you actually make them?

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Posted By Raycat

I agree with OP, especially these parts are important ;

“How unfortunate that you are attempting to deceive me,” Sidious said. “Master?” Maul asked. “You have become a rival,” Sidious declared.
Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence,
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''

And i'm surprised about how someone can say ; Anakin/Vader better than Maul at ''physical fight'' , just read these (by the way this is not stronger TCW Maul) ;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

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Edited By DARK_PASSENGER

@raycat: he also said "you have been replaced!" wasn't Maul being amped by the Prophets of the Dark Side? And he eventually loses that duel. Granted Vader had to stab himself. That wasn't Vader at his prime either. Sorry I swear I didn't mean to flag your comment my phone messed up :-(

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Edited By ShootingNova

Why would you underline "Maul found himself in awe of Sidious"? It means he was amazed and dreaded Sidious...... not much of an accolade/feat there.

I repeat what I said in the other thread:

@shootingnova said:

I have no idea why you keep on insisting that Dooku has no physical feats. By virtue of strength he has disarmed Grievous, disarmed Anakin, kicked Anakin, kicked Obi-Wan, kicked Ventress, kicked a Nightsister while drugged, deflected blows from Ventress and her Nightsister aides with enough force to stagger them while drugged, and so on. Maul may be physically stronger, but not by the margin you are making it out to be. Anakin's successful performance against Dooku is not a suitable benchmark because Anakin's strength feats exceed Maul's. Conversely, Dooku had no issues dueling with Grievous, somebody whose strength also exceeds that of Maul's.

As far as speed goes, Dooku takes a slight lead. They have replicated each others' speed feats when it came down to the regular moving faster than human perception, and so on, but Dooku has generated more afterimages than Maul, for how much that's worth. Maul does appear to be relatively even with Obi-Wan, and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader goes out of its way to state that Dooku moved faster than Obi-Wan:

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

For dueling skill, Maul has consistently stalemated Obi-Wan, beaten Ko-Solok and Bruu Jun-Fan simultaneously, held the advantage over Judd, quickly won against Savage, and contended with Pre Vizsla (as a dueling feat, not a speed feat).

Contrariwise, Dooku has defeated Windu at least once and stalemated him every other time, contended with Yoda, beaten Grievous, beaten Obi-Wan, beaten AotC Anakin, stalemated Anakin on Tatooine and contended with him in every other fight, easily disarmed a lightwhip-wielding Anakin on Kadavo, defeated Sora Bulq and Tholme simultaneously, defeated Ventress, defeated Quinlan Vos, and so on. Dooku takes a minor advantage in the dueling department.

As far as other unorthodox physical advantages go, they should also be even. Maul's proficiency in Teras Kasi could serve to hamper Dooku's fighting style bu making it more difficult than it already is for Dooku to physically keep up, while Dooku's curved-hilt is completely alien to Maul and would serve Dooku well as far as dueling goes.

Whether this would be of any help at all is up for discussion but frankly I would rather say we disregard it completely, since it is quite plausible Maul himself would know several unorthodox techniques of his own. On the other hand, while Maul is a master of several forms, this is no advantage for him because none of the forms are alien to Dooku, and he prefers utilizing Juyo.

Durability wise, this passes to Maul without a second thought. Dooku has absolutely no durability feats of note while Maul has repeatedly shown he can keep fighting after sustaining injuries, in part due to his Zabrak heritage, but nonetheless an impressive display of pain tolerance and endurance.

That's all the physicalities gone; now for telekinetic potency - TCW Maul has significantly better telekinetic feats than TPM Maul, and all but rivals Dooku in this department. For a comparison, Maul has choked and hurled Obi-Wan; and so has Dooku. Maul has collapsed part of a cave; and so has Dooku. Maul has twisted a victim's head around with a Choke, while Dooku has used some Choke or possibly Crush on a Weequay Pirate to kill him instantly. Maul has scattered several soldiers with a simple push; Dooku has done the same. Maul has collapsed a tunnel ceiling to form some miniature landslide, while Dooku has easily collapsed boulders with a gesture. An injured Maul has pulled a twenty-meter shuttle over a cliff, while Dooku has easily collapsed a bridge. Maul has crushed a droid; Dooku has slammed down a steel door with a gesture. Maul has effortlessly lifted a piece of metal to knock down a Weequay Pirate; Dooku has collapsed a crane while drained of energy. Maul has shown the precision to fracture bones individually; Dooku has shown the precision to throw a knife perfectly into a keyhole. And so forth. They are just about even, except for Dooku lifting over a dozen steel obelisks, a feat which narrowly exceeds anything Maul has shown. Dooku takes the telekinesis department.

Dooku does have Lightning, but if for some reason he elects to use it from a noticeable distance, then Maul should have no problem dodging it or catching it on his blade. If Dooku uses it at a close range, then it could be used for disruptive or even protective means, but frankly given Maul's resilience, Dooku's most powerful Lightning attacks (which have instantly killed several Kiffar warriors) should only lightly injure him at best. That said, it should be at least as effective against Maul as it was against Anakin.

Telepathy is not something either of these combatants use in a fight, but for analytical purposes I might as well list their feats. I believe Maul has compelled some fodder to commit suicide, and Dooku has forced a Weequay pirate to kill his companion, but both of those are completely inapplicable in a fight. Dooku has shown Drain Knowledge, but not only is that useless in a fight, but Obi-Wan managed to partially resist it in spite of the fact that his ability to call upon the Force was interfered with by electrocution. Maul has shown passive telepathic resistance sufficient enough to repulse an Iktotchi's attempt to probe his mind, and while some fodder Iktotchi should not be more powerful than Dooku telepathically, the ease at which Maul repelled her telepathy is a sufficient indication to me that Dooku's telepathy would have no more success. And of course, neither of these combatants have chosen to use telepathy in any of their battles, so in a fight with morals on, telepathy would have no bearing whatsoever.

In the broadest sense, strength and endurance favor Maul, while skill, TK, Lightning and speed narrowly side with Dooku. Take your pick.

That said, all of Dooku's advantages are minimal, while Maul's strength advantage is anywhere from minimal to negligible. As for his resiliency, it would allow him to take Dooku's Lightning and telekinesis without suffering anything more than minor wounds in the most unfavorable scenario, but it would not prevent Dooku from physically manipulating him with telekinesis and Lightning, nor would it allow him to continue fighting if Dooku landed a lightsaber blow, which would lead to a victory in Dooku's favor.

All in all, this is a good fight. Dooku wins dueling, speed and TK by a small margin and has Lightning, while Maul has strength and resiliency on his side. Dooku wins a small advantage of 6-7/10 by virtue of having more valuable and resourceful advantages.

@shootingnova said:

For all the people saying Maul wins by virtue of strength, not only have you people failed to refute Dooku's repelling of Pre-TCW Grievous's strikes, but there is also this: Mace Windu, a being who has demonstrated strength feats rivaling those of Maul's (flattening Super Battle Droid plating with punches) has never overwhelmed Dooku by virtue of strength. Here is their brief clash - and Windu's strength never appeared to make any difference:

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And in every one of their spars in the past, Windu has never overwhelmed Dooku with strength either. In many of their spars, neither of them left the victor, and thus they were regarded as equals:

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At least one source indicates that Dooku had outsparred Windu before, and while it is certainly plausible the inverse occurred, it has never been stated:

Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

I fail to see why Maul would so easily overwhelm Dooku with strength, when other combatants such as Windu and Pre-TCW Grievous, whose strength feats either rival or surpass Maul's, have failed to do the same.

@shootingnova said:

I personally feel that Maul is being underrated.

And being overrated. I repeat as I have done about four times already in this thread, I have always offered objective analyses, and I do not undercut people to favor my side. For that matter, I like Maul as well.

We forget that even before TCW, he was beating Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time, and Qui-Gon was a very prestigious lightsaber combatant in his own right, and was said to be able to duel Master Windu as an equal. Now admittedly, he also had a lot of disadvantages against Maul, but still, that's no slouch feat. Only reason Obi-Wan was able to beat Maul was because of a single lucky hit after Maul had assumed he already won.

TCW Maul should not be compared to TPM Maul, and he did have an advantage in possessing an alien weapon as well. As for Qui-Gon dueling Windu as an equal, I keep hearing that as a source, but I have never seen evidence to indicate that. As of TPM, Qui-Gon's age lessened his speed, strength and skill anyways, so sparring evenly with Windu in the distant past is somewhat irrelevant.

Dooku has a better feat than that anyways - defeating both Sora Bulq and Tholme simultaneously.

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Dooku disarms Bulq in the first scan, indicating his superior skill. He then knocks him out with Lightning before proceeding to stomp Tholme.

Bulq alone has actually stalemated Windu (scans below) before getting Force-pushed, but that has nothing to do with dueling. Tholme has fought fairly evenly with Quinlan Vos. So really, Bulq is a superior combatant to Jinn while Tholme is a superior combatant to TPM Kenobi. And Dooku defeated them both, unlike Maul, who, while being able to maintain an advantage, lacked the ability to outright defeat them together with the same ease Dooku had with his opponents, both of whom possess superior skill levels than Maul's opponents anyways.

As for Sora stalemating Windu in dueling, here are the scans:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Also, what was Dooku's greatest weakness? He had a hard time holding up a defense against sheer raw force. That's why Anakin was able to beat him. What is Maul best at? Sheer raw force. Thus even if Dooku IS superior, Maul has a personal advantage.

The issue is that Anakin's strength feats exceed Maul's, and so do his skill and speed feats. By the time of RotS Anakin had faced Dooku many times before, so he did not have to be wary of Dooku's curved-hilt, which Maul has never faced. This means he must fight more cautiously and limits his ability to just charge in hacking away at maximum strength. Beyond that, Dooku has a notable skill for utilizing TK and Lightning mid-duel, which could be used again as protective measures to prevent Maul from simply overwhelming him.

I have still not seen anybody refute the fact that Dooku had no difficulty repelling Pre-TCW Grievous's blows, and the fact that Pre-TCW Grievous has better strength feats than Maul does.

@shootingnova said:

Anakin's strength comparative to Savage is irrelevant, because Maul's performance against Savage also related to his proficiency in Teras Kasi, his speed, and his cybernetic legs, along with his strength. His Teras Kasi was in part what allowed him to easily twist Savage's arm, and pinning him to the floor was the combined result of all of the above. And really, Savage flooring Dooku seems to be Dooku underestimating Savage's strength, Savage throwing all of his strength into one attack, or both. Still, though, there should be no reason for Maul to replicate the same thing.

For that matter, why would you even reference Teras Kasi, but not reference the fact that Maul has absolutely no idea how Tyranus's lightsaber design functions? They would offer equal advantages over one another, and you could still reference Dooku's mastery of various unorthodox techniques, but that's still up for discussion (but nobody has been discussing it). Not only do these offer dueling advantages, but possibly level the strength advantage Maul has, because he must be cautious of how he fights due to how inexperienced he is in combating somebody with Dooku's weapon design and fighting style.

Anakin has struck hard enough to shatter stone beneath him, crushed MagnaGuard hands, met a MagnaGuard attack with enough force to stagger them (Magnaguards have created craters in steel by landing), and was described as striking "with the Force of a meteor". Maul's best strength feat would be between knocking around Obi-Wan, or throwing a spear over a colossal distance.

As impressive as that is, Dooku has had no difficulty against Grievous:

(6:50-7:18)

Mind you, this is Pre-TCW Grievous, not TCW Grievous. For the sake of reference, he has accomplished things like this:

As for dueling with Sidious, Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy states in no uncertain terms that when Palpatine was actually trying, Maul saw nothing more than "countless blades": Evidently, he would be unable to react to a Palpatine actually fighting to his full capacity, which is consistent with several other EU sources which indicate that TPM Maul, Anakin, and Windu would not have been able to do so either.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

And before people say Savage was knocking back TCW Anakin during their fight, that was TCW Anakin (who has never displayed strength feats of regular EU Anakin) and they were plainly neglecting to attack him anyways. With strength feats such as striking with the force of a meteor and striking against a blade hard enough to shatter stone beneath him exceeds any feat demonstrated by Savage and Maul, and for speed, Anakin has encased himself in the light of his blade, fought fast enough to appear to be "everywhere at once" and filled Count Dooku's entire line of vision with the light of his blade. Those feats all exceed Maul's, and the only advantage he possesses over Anakin is Teras Kasi.

Nobody has successfully refuted any of that yet. Aside from claiming I'm biased, is there anybody who is actually going to refute any of this? Because as it stands, Dooku should not have nearly as much trouble as is being fanwanked in this thread.

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Posted By Deathstroke19
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Edited By ShootingNova
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Edited By Deathstroke19
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Posted By ShootingNova

@deathstroke19: Except, you know, it's the exact same thing, as soon as you click the spoiler tag.....

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Edited By ShootingNova

Videos can't be placed within spoiler blocks, so they won't appear within my post. Anybody who wants to see them can just tell me and I'll repost them.

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Posted By Deathstroke19

@shootingnova: Yeah but... Its nice and tidy now so it doesn't just look like.... A wall of text.... Lol

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Edited By ShootingNova

@deathstroke19: It's really just the same thing if you open it again.

Still, I stand by what I said.

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Posted By Deathstroke19

@shootingnova: Yeah but.... We had a moment there, and I actually made you laugh which was one of my goals here (including making JXM and Silver laugh).... We had a moment, just let it happen lol.

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Posted By ShootingNova
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Edited By Deathstroke19

@shootingnova: haha wow this is a new record, getting you to laugh twice! You must be having a great day today! Jk lol

For some reason most of the hardcore Star Wars fans (except dccomicsrule) are extremely stubborn to laugh which is why I have set those goals.

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Edited By ShootingNova

@deathstroke19: I say "LOL" a lot. Even when I don't laugh. You can tell if I'm laughing if I say "haha" or "that's too funny" or "that's hilarious" or whatever.

This is really off-topic though.

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Edited By Erkan12

@raycat said:

And i'm surprised about how someone can say ; Anakin/Vader better than Maul at ''physical fight'' , just read these (by the way this is not stronger TCW Maul) ;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Very good ! I should add this to OP. With that there should be no doubt !

@dark_passenger said:

he also said "you have been replaced!" wasn't Maul being amped by the Prophets of the Dark Side? And he eventually loses that duel. Granted Vader had to stab himself. That wasn't Vader at his prime either. Sorry I swear I didn't mean to flag your comment my phone messed up :-(

C'mon... after this at least i thought you would agree... I read the comic and i don't remember any info about 'amped' , they just 'resurrect' him, his name was 'Darth Maul'... Plus it doesn't matter amped or not, since ''TCW Maul stronger than TPM''...

And about Vader's prime or not... That just speculation of Vader fans, i never read that Vader becoming stronger...

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Edited By ShootingNova

Unsure what adding that has to do with anything. Maul was "winning" because of speed/agility, not dueling prowess, and Vader (who wasn't even in his prime) won in the end anyways.

Anakin is faster and much more agile than Vader, so he might as well be capable of replicating that feat against Vader.

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Edited By Deathstroke19
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Edited By Strikerx

@shootingnova said:

Unsure what adding that has to do with anything. Maul was "winning" because of speed/agility, not dueling prowess, and Vader (who wasn't even in his prime) won in the end anyways.

Anakin is faster and much more agile than Vader, so he might as well be capable of replicating that feat against Vader.

Yes he won but it is irrelevant with the subject, they are claiming Maul stronger as physical fighter, and they showed the proof but you are still denying and making excuses. Vader lost the physical fight against Maul, this Vader in his cyborg body much stronger than Anakin. Nobody said Anakin is slower or Vader didn't won the fight.

Therefor as physical fighter Maul > Vader/Anakin, this is more than enough for defeating Dooku.

8 of 10 Maul wins.

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When i watch these, i feel like Maul destroys Dooku.

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Posted By DARK_PASSENGER

@erkan12: I've known about that comic for awhile. I could've sworn the Prophets of the Dark Side were giving him some kind of buff, but either way that's not TPM or TCW Maul it's a clone. To my understanding Vader wasn't in his prime until RotJ. I also feel like shootingnovas post pretty much explains why Douku would win at the very least showing Douku takes the majority

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Edited By Erkan12


I've known about that comic for awhile. I could've sworn the Prophets of the Dark Side were giving him some kind of buff, but either way that's not TPM or TCW Maul it's a clone. To my understanding Vader wasn't in his prime until RotJ. I also feel like shootingnovas post pretty much explains why Douku would win at the very least showing Douku takes the majority

I read the comic. There is no such a thing. So it is Maul's weaker TPM version. Vader and his prime is irrelevant, because Anakin's physical strength didn't decrease. His dueling skills, his force maybe, but not his strength, since he was half machine, (cybernetic legs and arms).

Sorry but these are just excuses... Now we have the comic that shows us ; Maul > Vader as physically. And thats more than enough for outmaneuvering Dooku.

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Posted By ElderStarlord117

/sigh

Maul does not, will not, and won't ever take the majority in a one-on-one fight against Dooku. Dooku outclasses Maul in nearly every way.

Haven't you made a thread similar to this before? Or am I just looking at the same one?

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Edited By Erkan12


/sigh

Maul does not, will not, and won't ever take the majority in a one-on-one fight against Dooku. Dooku outclasses Maul in nearly every way.

Lol. Please read the OP again then.

I suppose you are thinking with movie feats and like this ; (Padawan Obi-Wan beat Maul, Obi-Wan lost to Dooku, so no way)

Dooku's weakness = Maul's speciality. Even TPM Maul has chance and this TCW Maul much stronger than TPM.

@elderstarlord117 said:Haven't you made a thread similar to this before? Or am I just looking at the same one?

That was poll, this is my blog.

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Edited By DARK_PASSENGER

@erkan12: fair enough just thought he had a buff. Either way it's not TPM Maul it's a clone. It is completely relevant I would contest RotJ Vader>RotS Vader the only thing Anakin has on him is speed and agility. Which is why Maul was able to overwhelm Vader it was because of speed not strength. Also how does the comic show Maul>Vader? He still loses the duel. Also out maneuvering Vader(not prime) doesn't mean he could do the same to Douku.

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Edited By Earthquake_2123

If this was Hand to Hand and Dooku doesn't use lighting force ability or Saber then I would say Maul takes takes the the slight majority. Other then that Dooku takes it 7-8/10

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Edited By ShootingNova

@erkan12: It really doesn't matter whether you made a poll or blog, you can't make the same thread twice.

@strikerx said:

Yes he won but it is irrelevant with the subject, they are claiming Maul stronger as physical fighter, and they showed the proof but you are still denying and making excuses. Vader lost the physical fight against Maul, this Vader in his cyborg body much stronger than Anakin. Nobody said Anakin is slower or Vader didn't won the fight.

Therefor as physical fighter Maul > Vader/Anakin, this is more than enough for defeating Dooku.

All of this is incorrect.

First of all, Vader's physical feats do not exceed Anakin's at all. Secondly, Maul was not winning the fight because he was stronger or more skilled. He was winning because of speed/agility, which matters because Vader's cybernetic armor reduces his actions (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force and so on all state this).

The difference in a fight against Anakin is that Anakin is faster and and significantly more agile than Vader. This is why Maul's fight against Vader is not translatable to a fight against Anakin, because Maul does not have the advantage in speed/agility as he did against Vader, which was the reason he gave Vader that much trouble. Vader was still far from his prime at that point anyways.

And just to drive this home:

Anakin strikes against Ventress's blades hard enough to crack and shatter stone beneath him:

Loading Video...

Anakin strikes with the force of a meteor:

Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

All of you Maul supporters - show me strength feats from Maul exceeding this (and no, not he beat Savage who forced back TCW Anakin, who has never displayed this level of strength anyways).

For speed - Anakin, as a padawan, has encased himself in the light of his blade:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Anakin has fought fast enough to appear to be "everywhere at once".

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

Source: Jedi Quest: The School of Fear

Show me speed feats from Maul that exceed this, or even rival this.

So no, Maul is not a "better physical fighter" than Anakin at all, at least, not regular EU Anakin, which was the version who won against Dooku (by the way, he was also enraged at that point). Using TCW Anakin as a benchmark when the version who beat Dooku was regular EU Anakin, is rather stretching, given how regular EU Anakin's speed and strength feats are in excess of anything he has shown in TCW.

I repeat - show me strength/speed feats from Maul which exceed the above, and then I will concede that Maul is physically superior to Anakin. As I said, the only advantage he has is Teras Kasi, not strength or speed.

And there is still nobody who even tried to refute my earlier points about Pre-TCW Grievous and Windu failing to overpower Dooku with strength. Saying Grievous was beaten by a Force Crush obviously does not refute my point because that has nothing to do with physical strength.

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Edited By ShootingNova

Why the Maul supporters are claiming I'm denying anything and making excuses is beyond me when every single Maul supporter has failed to even try to refute my points, beyond using irrelevancies and claiming I'm biased. The Maul supporters have denied to even recognize any of my points thus far, and they are the only ones making fallacious excuses, and this is the case in both the threads.

When you have a confirmation bias combined with red herrings, contradictions, false premises and appeals to ignorance, I don't think you're in a position to be claiming anybody else to be "denying" anything or "making excuses".

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Edited By Wolfrazer

You know, I find it rather odd that Vader doesn't have strength that would exceed Anakin's considering that you would think Vader's cybernetics would increase his strength all around along with his durability. Rather than just his durability being heightened. Plus it would contrast nicely with Anakin being faster/agile, while Vader stronger/durable.

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Edited By Wolfrazer
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Posted By Pharoh_Atem

You know, I find it rather odd that Vader doesn't have strength that would exceed Anakin's considering that you would think Vader's cybernetics would increase his strength all around along with his durability. Rather than just his durability being heightened. Plus it would contrast nicely with Anakin being faster/agile, while Vader stronger/durable.

I actually think Vader is more powerful....But his feats doesn't surpass Ani's...It only matches.

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Posted By Wolfrazer

@dccomicsrule2011: Should be fixed! Hopefully DH before they lose Star Wars pulls out all the stops for Vader!