EpicMeltDown

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EpicMeltDown

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@owie said:

@epicmeltdown said:

I have read every issue of Invincible since issue 1. I've reread the series numerous times. Meanwhile, I think I have only read maybe a dozen issues of Wonder Woman. I may be the only comic fan you'll meet who knows a hell of a lot more about Invincible than I know about Wonder Woman. In any case, that makes me a poor judge of what Wonder Woman is capable of. However, a lot of people have commented on the numerous times Mark's been left bloody and broken after a fight and citing that as evidence of weakness but that's not really the case in my opinion and here's why. Invincible the comic is all about trying to realistically portray super human battles. Why has Wonder Woman never had her guts spilling out of her during a battle like Invincible? It's not because she's necessarily stronger or better than Invincible, it's because she's published by DC comics who can't show battles that gory. The worst she can get is broken limb, a bloody lip, maybe a bruise if the artist thinks they can make it look cute, etc but ultimately she's always going to be mostly intacted with few if any marks to show for it.

Invincible has definitely gone up against, in my opinion, opponents much stronger than Wonder Woman. I think Invincible is meant to be faster and stronger than Superman these days which as I understand it should make him faster and stronger than Wonder Woman. I will say that she's supposed to be a very skilled combatant and she's definitely more experienced. As much as I would like Invincible to win this I could still see Wonder Woman coming out on top. But if Invincible thought it was a fight to the death he's proved he's willing to go to bloody violent places Wonder Woman probably hasn't encountered in the DCU. That could give Invincible a last minute edge.

You seem like a guy I can direct my Invincible questions to. So when he had his guts ripped out, how long did it take to heal? Does he heal in the midst of battle like a Kryptonian Wolverine? What kind of damage did it take to spill his guts out--how strong a character, and was it using weapons? I'm looking to figure what kind of strike it would take to do it again. Does he ever speed blitz during a fight, in the sense of numerous punches in a split second?

So they gut spilling incident in question was during a fight with a character called Conquest. Conquest was arguably the toughest opponent Invincible had faced at that point in the series. Mark took about 2 months to recover if I'm remembering right and was mostly unconscious during that recovery period. He was strangling Conquest to death while Conquest was repeatedly punching Mark in the stomach. Once the wound was created Conquest grabbed what organs he could and pulled them out. So Mark is very durable in that he was able to heal from that wound but he's no where near Wolverine's healing speed. Conquest was definitely quite a lot stronger than Mark. So if the question is: Could Wonder Woman do something like that to Mark? I don't think so. Part of the Viltrumite (Mark's race) fighting style is using speed to land quick powerful blows often aiming to sever limbs and punch through the opponent. Several Viltrumite fights are depicted with combatants severing heads and chopping off arms with quick chops. Mark isn't usually that vicious but when fighting other Viltrumites or tougher opponents with life or death circumstances he's been know to go with a quicker barrage of blows. So yes, depending on the threat he perceived Wonder Woman to be he might go with a speed blitz attack.

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@epicmeltdown said:

@man_of_miracles: I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong but I would like to know why you've come to that conclusion. As far as pre-new 52 Superman, Superboy Prime at peak power was able to move a planet. Pre-new 52 Superman was shown at his peak to not be nearly as strong as Superboy Prime. Invincible helped destroy a planet by ramming through it which personally i would put on par with the strength it would take to move a planet. Also my personal impression is that Omni-man felt like he was supposed to be a bit stronger than Superman from the start of Invincible and Mark was able to hold his on against Omni-man for a little while at the very beginning of his career and since then Mark's power has increasing a great deal. Anyhow, right or wrong that's where I'm coming from at least on strength. Speedwise I would refer you to Micah's earlier post on distances traveled. Could I be wrong? Sure. I open to hearing your reasons.

1. Mark helped two other Vitrumites destroy a planet by flying through its core, a core which first had to be destabilized by a laser for fear that the Vitrumites would die running into the core were it not destabilized. In comparison Pre-52 Superman was punched through the earth and came out fine on the other side.

2. New-52 Superman has already been shown to benchpress the weight of earth for days on end. That puts any on Invincible's strength feats to shame.

3. Pre-52 Superman has been shown to survive a Supernova, again far above anything Invincible has demonstrated. New-52 Superman has some very impressive durability showings as well, I will post some when I get a chance.

4. New-52 Superman read every medical book in existence in 5 minutes, this is a testament to his reaction speed. Pre-52 Superman has been shown to have reaction speed on a nanosecond level.

5. Travel speed is the one category I would consider Invincible and Omni-man to be close to Superman in.

Bringing this back around to the thread we are currently on. WW has consistently proven to be on, or very close to Superman's level of strength, durability and combat speed. Add in the fact that she has an unbreakable lasso that would quickly incapacitate Invincible and you have a fight that is not all the close in my opinion.

1. If this were you only argument I would think it would at least put them on par strength wise as they both came out of the situation unscathed. But your argument applies more to Superman's durability rather than his strength. Since he survived being hit through a planet rather than punching through it. But you're right he had help and it had been destabilized which i didn't remember.

2. I haven't read any new 52 Superman so I haven't made any statements about him but I have to admit that's stronger than Invincible has been shown to my knowledge at present.

3. That's pretty durable and I'm not sure that Invincible has been shown to survive anything quite so tough. I'll have to check out my comics once work is over. :)

4. Again, I don't know anything about new 52 Superman and if you say it happened, sure I'll buy that. I had to laugh when i read it though because it sounds like a kid describing how fast something was to a friend. "He's so fast he read like all the books ever in like a second." Anyhow, if that's what happened that's fast. I doubt any Flash or Flash knock off could claim that. I would however love to see someone test his super reading comprehension.

5. Cool.

All in all, I think you've shown that pre-new 52 Superman has been shown to be at least more durable then Invincible has been shown to be. However, I have to disagree that this proves that pre-new 52 Superman is miles ahead strength-wise. I would still feel comfortable saying that are on the same level.

As too New 52 Superman, apparently his power levels are closer to gold & silver age ridiculous levels so I suppose Invincible couldn't even compete with him.

In the end, I guess taking your examples into account and assuming pre-new 52 WW is close to pre-new 52 Superman that's got to put Invincible and Wonder Woman on par and again I think despite her lasso Invincible has proven to be very formidable when backed into a corner. I still think he has the potential to win.

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EpicMeltDown

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#3  Edited By EpicMeltDown

@man_of_miracles: I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong but I would like to know why you've come to that conclusion. As far as pre-new 52 Superman, Superboy Prime at peak power was able to move a planet. Pre-new 52 Superman was shown at his peak to not be nearly as strong as Superboy Prime. Invincible helped destroy a planet by ramming through it which personally i would put on par with the strength it would take to move a planet. Also my personal impression is that Omni-man felt like he was supposed to be a bit stronger than Superman from the start of Invincible and Mark was able to hold his on against Omni-man for a little while at the very beginning of his career and since then Mark's power has increasing a great deal. Anyhow, right or wrong that's where I'm coming from at least on strength. Speedwise I would refer you to Micah's earlier post on distances traveled. Could I be wrong? Sure. I'm open to hearing your reasons.

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I have read every issue of Invincible since issue 1. I've reread the series numerous times. Meanwhile, I think I have only read maybe a dozen issues of Wonder Woman. I may be the only comic fan you'll meet who knows a hell of a lot more about Invincible than I know about Wonder Woman. In any case, that makes me a poor judge of what Wonder Woman is capable of. However, a lot of people have commented on the numerous times Mark's been left bloody and broken after a fight and citing that as evidence of weakness but that's not really the case in my opinion and here's why. Invincible the comic is all about trying to realistically portray super human battles. Why has Wonder Woman never had her guts spilling out of her during a battle like Invincible? It's not because she's necessarily stronger or better than Invincible, it's because she's published by DC comics who can't show battles that gory. The worst she can get is broken limb, a bloody lip, maybe a bruise if the artist thinks they can make it look cute, etc but ultimately she's always going to be mostly intacted with few if any marks to show for it.

Invincible has definitely gone up against, in my opinion, opponents much stronger than Wonder Woman. I think Invincible is meant to be faster and stronger than Superman these days which as I understand it should make him faster and stronger than Wonder Woman. I will say that she's supposed to be a very skilled combatant and she's definitely more experienced. As much as I would like Invincible to win this I could still see Wonder Woman coming out on top. But if Invincible thought it was a fight to the death he's proved he's willing to go to bloody violent places Wonder Woman probably hasn't encountered in the DCU. That could give Invincible a last minute edge.

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@jonny_anonymous: Alan Moore's run on Miracleman was original published as Marvelman in an anthology series in the UK called Warrior (this is also where V for Vendetta started out). When it was originally printed there it was black and white. The series came over to America and was published by Eclipse Comics where it was printed in color for the first time. Then the art work was cleaned up for Eclipse Comics' graphic novel releases. Marvel is essentially cleaning up Eclipse Comics' graphic novel presentation of the book.

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I liked Ash in Space better when it was Fear Agent. :)

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#7  Edited By EpicMeltDown

I feel like there are a lot of exciting things coming up for Image. They seem to be winning at the moment. Although, I assume that ultimately since this site mostly covers DC and Marvel publications and therefore attracts mostly DC and Marvel fans that the answer will be....wait for it.....DC or Marvel.

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@scarlet_rogue: It says that someone who looks like Peter Parker is wearing the classic Spider-man suit. It doesn't say anything more than that. Until there is official word to me this isn't enough information to start celebrating.

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Did I miss something? That image might imply that Peter Parker will be Spider-man again but it doesn't say that. Does the actual solicitation say that? I would love for Peter to be back but right now it just seems like people are making assumptions because the book is titled Amazing Spider-man.

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So if you look at the top five Superman stories as voted by readers so far:

All Star Superman 33%

Kingdom Come 10%

Red Son 9%

Birthright 8%

Death and Return of Superman 7%

It seems most people prefer a Superman story that's out of continuity or in which he dies. What does that say about the way the character gets handled?