EpicMeltDown

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EpicMeltDown

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@epicmeltdown well, if you weren't saying that, that's unfortunate. What IS fortunate is that the facts, the feats, and most importantly, the results of this thread's battle state an irrefutable fact that can't be denied: When the princess by the name of Diana face Invincible in batte, only ONE outcome will occur---WONDER WOMAN WINS.

@zhurong, you're quite correct; a person being bitter about it won't change the fact that-rightfully so-Wonder Woman won.

Congratulations on your chosen combatant's victory in this poll.

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EpicMeltDown

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#2  Edited By EpicMeltDown

@epicmeltdown if you're saying that just because the creators of Invincible have a license to more graphically, visually display how brutal looking superhero battles would actually be doesn't mean that Wonder Woman hasn't been in battles equally as brutal---then, on that basis we do agree.

No, I wasn't saying that.

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EpicMeltDown

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@theonewhoknows: I feel like at the core of your last post was the idea that ultimately it was a waste of time to debate this point. On that we can agree.

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#4  Edited By EpicMeltDown

@theonewhoknows said:

@epicmeltdown if you think tanking blows from a blood lusted Superman TWICE (in the "Sacrifice" storyline, and in Wonder Woman issue 175 when Circe enthralled him into not just fighting, but trying to KILL Diana) doesn't show she can't "take a lot of damage", then that ALONE tells me that you are apparently more interested in "winning" than accepting Wonder Woman's prowess. Fights aren't won by who one "likes" better.

Fights are won by whomever's victory serves the writer's story best. So yes, in fiction fights are absolutely and completely won by whoever someone likes better. So even with "proof", it is all hopelessly subjective. That having been said, I believe we're both trying our best to be as objective as possible. We'll have to agree to disagree.

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@epicmeltdown I thank you for your partial concessions, but I think you are somewhat missing the point. I know about some of Invincible's battles already (and looked at the respect thread you mentioned just to re-enforce my knowledge). But the heart of the matter is that assertions were made that Diana has not had any battles as "gory and visceral" as Invincible has had, giving him some sort of advantage, and that simply isn't so. At BEST, the only difference between these two is that Invincible's company is more comfortable VISUALLY DISPLAYING the carnage in his battles, but the ACTUAL REALITIES of the battles are MORE than comparable. Fights that feature broken limbs, bleeding jugulars, slashed faces, and skulls that have been snapped and beheaded from necks are MORE than sufficient to illustrate Diana's grit.

Incidently, I dug into some of my comics stash to reveal where the battles I mentioned took place (anything not readily handy to me must be in storage, and I ain't making a gas-guzzling trip out there just for THAT!) The brutal battle with Circe I mentioned happened in Wonder Woman issue 174, second series; there are SEVERAL vicious battles with Cheetah to choose from-I couldn't find the NASTIEST one I was looking for, but one that comes close is in Wonder Woman issues 33-35 second series (actually they get pretty brutal-but not as protracted-in issues 27-32 as well, off and on); the snapping of Grendel's neck occurred in Secret Six issue 14; and the beheading happens in Wonder Woman issue 5, but as it turns out I was incorrect on WHO got beheaded; it wasn't Ares relative Medusa, but actually Ares relative Deimos who was on the verge of killing Diana from the poison being emitted from his serpentine hair (which made me mis-remember it being Medusa). As he was gloating about his impending victory, Diana launched her razor edged tiara at him and took his head clean off.

Before that she was fighting a female creature, Decay (who I ALSO mis-remembered as Medusa) in a brutal, comic long, city destroying battle that raged back and forth between the combatants. Decay escaped getting decapitated---she had the good fortune of "merely" being exploded into a million pieces with the aid of Diana's magic lasso!

So as I said before, justice was done: Wonder Woman SHOULD and WOULD be the victor in a battle against Invincible.


I think our debate has maybe taken us away from my original intent bringing up the brutality of the battles that Invincible has been involved with. I admit that Wonder Woman has an edge in experience and I can't argue with her skill level. Endurance wise, Invincible has been shown to be able to endure quite a bit of damage that would stop most characters in their tracks, he's been shown to be able to not only endure a large amount of abuse but also to continue fighting effectively through it. You've given several examples of Wonder Woman being in brutal fights. We can agree to disagree about how the level of those versus Invincible's battles compare but nothing in there shows her ability to take a lot of damage. Has she been in fights where she's had limbs severed? Where she's been just about disemboweled? How has Wonder Woman reacted to that kind of fight? I think Invincible has had more experience with this type of fight during his career than post crisis/pre-new 52 Wonder Woman has dealt with.

In any case, I will have to check out the issues you've mentioned and see what I think about them maybe I'll change my mind.

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#6  Edited By EpicMeltDown

@theonewhoknows said:

@epicmeltdown before I continue my comments, I also want to mention some other incidents involving Diana---the bloody, brutal, rolling down a hill and destroying everything in their path fight she had with the legendary Circe; the fight she had with Cheetah that left her lovely face scarred; and the nasty, bloody fight she had with the mythological man-creature Grendel that eventually ended with her victory-which she accomplished by brutally snapping his neck.

Now, sir or madam ---are you REALLY going to insist that some of the savage battles that preN52 Wonder Woman was involved in-that resulted in the participants having broken limbs, bloody, damaged ear drums, deep, heat visioned-caused facial scars, blood-running-like-a-riverfall gushing from torn jugulars, and ruthlessly SNAPPED and BEHEADED necks are not "anywhere CLOSE to as brutal as any of Invincible's battles with other Viltrumites"?

Sometimes, when one gets information that they were not previously aware of, they should just say "Oh, my bad; well now I know, so I retract my previous assertion". It really IS okay to concede that one was incorrect sometime, and move on.

I appreciate what you're saying but having read 2 out of the 3 events you cited in your earlier post I simply didn't agree with you. Having not read the other events you mentioned and with no specific issues cited for me to review (not that you have to, that takes time I'm sure you could use better elsewhere) all I have to go on is your opinion of the events mentioned. As I said the ones you mentioned that I'm familiar with in my opinion don't compare. Further, just knowing what I do know from years of reading other DC comics and knowing generally how their rating system works I feel pretty safe in the idea that one of DC's top tier characters aren't going to have the kind of fights they are having in Invincible. I would suggest you check out some of the scans in the Invincible respect thread and you can decide if the events you've cited compare to those.

In short, I could concede that you are right (or at very least that I could be wrong) based on the new information you've provided but I haven't conceded because the information you've provided is either insufficient or not convincing. At the end of the day it's all just opinion anyway so I will grant you this much: I will agree to disagree. And that really is OK. :)

PS I would have replied sooner but I didn't see this until today.

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@zhurong said:

@epicmeltdown: You must of missed Falshpoint. She killed a child with no remorse.

That's true, I didn't read Flashpoint. That is rather brutal. However, it is essentially a different character from the pre-new 52 Diana.

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@epicmeltdown three quick examples off the top of my head: the bloody, limbs being broken battle she had with Superman; the eventual cold hearted snapping of Max Lord's neck that ended said battle; and her beheading Ares relative/minion Medusa with no remorse!

I read the first two you mentioned and I'm sorry but I don't think either is anywhere close to as brutal as any of Invincible's battles with other Viltrumites. I can't comment on the Ares/Medusa incident since I haven't read it.

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The people who thought that preN52 Diana is too "honorable" to fight dirty or play to win must have stopped reading (or even heard any information) about Wonder Woman around 1979. The correct result-Wonder Woman winning-was displayed.

Personally, it's not that I thought Wonder Woman was too honorable I just doubt she's been involved in any fights that are as gory and visceral as what Invincible gets involved in. If that's not the case then I would love to see some examples.

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@epicmeltdown said:

@owie said:

@epicmeltdown said:

I have read every issue of Invincible since issue 1. I've reread the series numerous times. Meanwhile, I think I have only read maybe a dozen issues of Wonder Woman. I may be the only comic fan you'll meet who knows a hell of a lot more about Invincible than I know about Wonder Woman. In any case, that makes me a poor judge of what Wonder Woman is capable of. However, a lot of people have commented on the numerous times Mark's been left bloody and broken after a fight and citing that as evidence of weakness but that's not really the case in my opinion and here's why. Invincible the comic is all about trying to realistically portray super human battles. Why has Wonder Woman never had her guts spilling out of her during a battle like Invincible? It's not because she's necessarily stronger or better than Invincible, it's because she's published by DC comics who can't show battles that gory. The worst she can get is broken limb, a bloody lip, maybe a bruise if the artist thinks they can make it look cute, etc but ultimately she's always going to be mostly intacted with few if any marks to show for it.

Invincible has definitely gone up against, in my opinion, opponents much stronger than Wonder Woman. I think Invincible is meant to be faster and stronger than Superman these days which as I understand it should make him faster and stronger than Wonder Woman. I will say that she's supposed to be a very skilled combatant and she's definitely more experienced. As much as I would like Invincible to win this I could still see Wonder Woman coming out on top. But if Invincible thought it was a fight to the death he's proved he's willing to go to bloody violent places Wonder Woman probably hasn't encountered in the DCU. That could give Invincible a last minute edge.

You seem like a guy I can direct my Invincible questions to. So when he had his guts ripped out, how long did it take to heal? Does he heal in the midst of battle like a Kryptonian Wolverine? What kind of damage did it take to spill his guts out--how strong a character, and was it using weapons? I'm looking to figure what kind of strike it would take to do it again. Does he ever speed blitz during a fight, in the sense of numerous punches in a split second?

So they gut spilling incident in question was during a fight with a character called Conquest. Conquest was arguably the toughest opponent Invincible had faced at that point in the series. Mark took about 2 months to recover if I'm remembering right and was mostly unconscious during that recovery period. He was strangling Conquest to death while Conquest was repeatedly punching Mark in the stomach. Once the wound was created Conquest grabbed what organs he could and pulled them out. So Mark is very durable in that he was able to heal from that wound but he's no where near Wolverine's healing speed. Conquest was definitely quite a lot stronger than Mark. So if the question is: Could Wonder Woman do something like that to Mark? I don't think so. Part of the Viltrumite (Mark's race) fighting style is using speed to land quick powerful blows often aiming to sever limbs and punch through the opponent. Several Viltrumite fights are depicted with combatants severing heads and chopping off arms with quick chops. Mark isn't usually that vicious but when fighting other Viltrumites or tougher opponents with life or death circumstances he's been know to go with a quicker barrage of blows. So yes, depending on the threat he perceived Wonder Woman to be he might go with a speed blitz attack.

Do you have anything to suggest that he might be able to successfully blitz her? Her reactionary speed is off the charts combine that with her training and it makes it likely that he'd go in for a blow only to have it blocked or met with a blow from her.

I don't know if his trying to speed blitz her would be successful or not but I think he definitely stands a good chance. He's been in several fights of that caliber. I agree with those that cite Wonder Woman's experience. She's been fighting for a lot longer than Mark. I don't know Wonder Woman that well as a character so I haven't really seen how fast she can be but people are saying she could stand toe to toe with a Kryptonian. If people accept the Viltrumite / Kryptonian equivalency then even with super speed they should be pretty evenly matched. I think he would be faster but she's got more skill. I've always gotten the sense that Kirkman meant for Omni-man (Invincible's dad) to be all around tougher and faster than Superman and Mark's grown up a lot over the series and increased in skill over the series so personally I would put him above pre-new 52 Superman (not new 52 Superman since apparently his powers are ridiculous) in speed and strength. If that is the case, and you can decide that for yourself, then she'll definitely have a tough time with him.