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entropy_aegis

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@zeeguy91 said:

@entropy_aegis:Is the TT series so far the most well-known and high profile use of DS in other media? Yup. You bet it is. Let's poll people in their 20s (the intended audience of this movie) whether they remember DS more so from the TT series or from SoB or even the Arkham games. Let's see what the response is. You know, the more you talk and despite your protestations that you're not, the more it becomes apparent that you are a Batfanboy.

Actually Copperhead debuted in an issue of Brave and the Bold that co-starred Batman and Wonder Woman. And it was a team-up between the two of them that took him down. Copperhead then went on to have several run ins and encounters with teams and characters all across the DCU, from the JLA to the JLE to Elongated Man to Superboy. He joined the Secret Society of Supervillains in the 70s and was also even a member of the SuicideSquad (something Croc never did until the movie).Then the successor to the Copperhead mantle went on to become a member of the Terror Titans. So Copperhead is as much a Batman villain as he is an "anybody in DC" villain. So, congratulations, you just proved yet again the extent of your ignorance.

And again, Renee Montoya as Question is over. If DC were to revive the Question, it likely wouldn't be her in the title position. They'd probably be bringing back Vic Sage.

Uh, Cheshire would still probably act the same, but they'd mention her LoA ties. She might even bring along other LoA members, and then the LoA would become fodder for the Titans to fight. Unless you're proclaiming to be psychic, there's no way you could say that this is impossible.

How many times has DC actually invested in the Superman property the same way they have with Batman? The Superman comics are actually good right now, but is Scott Snyder (their A-lister) or Tom King (their rising star) or James Tynion (their A-lister's protege) actually writing a Superman comic? Before the New 52 (and indeed after the New 52), there wasn't really a concerted push for Superman creative teams. The Busiek run was a decent run, but it mostly just flew under the radar and didn't garner the attention of Morrison's Batman. Morrison's Action run lasted all of 18 issues (and honestly wasn't even good with him on it) and then the title was caught up in an endless cycle of bland crossovers. The Super office is just not as well managed as the Bat-office because DC doesn't consider Superman or any of their other properties as "important" as Batman. And as long as they play favorites like that, they're not going to have success with anything but Batman. So its essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I have no problem with the Kobra Cult fighting Bat-characters. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. But they should remain fair game for the rest of the DCU. Because in fact, they're probably more well known for their fighting against the JSA and Checkmate. Like Copperhead, the Kobra Cult is more "DCU" than "Batman" at this point. And it should remain that way. I don't mind them fighting Batman, but I also don't want to see them limited to JUST Batman. And let's be honest, previously unrelated characters being absorbed into Batman's world happens a hell of a lot more than characters leaving it.

And you know what that means? He's a Robin/Titans villain. That actually tracks with the comics where his rivalry is with Dick primarily. Hell, he targeted Blüdhaven and had Dick train his daughter. However, that still doesn't make him a Batman villain. Dick with the Titans had a separate identity entirely from the Batman world. What part of that do you not get?? You think Dick would have fought Brother Blood or Trigon or Goth or Blackfire or the Wildebeest Society or half the villains the Titans did fight if he had been with Batman? Its like saying that because Wolverine fought Kang while he was fighting alongside the Avengers, that Kang is now an X-Men villain.

And DS wanting to replace Batman again doesn't mean he's a Batman villain. Like I said, he fought Robin and the Titans specifically. He's a Titans villain.

Uh, actually that's not what people are saying about Cyborg. If you haven't noticed, Cyborg with the JL has been incredibly underwhelming. And his last solo series really wasn't anything to write home about. People want him back with the Titans because when he was with them, he actually had personality. He actually had friends. Has there been anything to replicate the lost Cyborg/Beast Boy friendship that existed in the Wolfman/Perez run in the pages of the New 52 JL? No. And moving off of Cyborg for a second, people are also just pissed that Cy being a founding League member means that the Wolfman/Perez run on NTT, one of the most acclaimed runs in all of DC's history is still out of continuity. The X-Men even aren't what they used to be, but has Marvel written the Claremont/Byrne run out of canon? No.

Actually, post-Crisis, Nightwing was a legendary superhero on Krypton whom Superman told Dick about, which then inspired his taking on of the Nightwing identity. And even the pre-Crisis imagining is still more a Superman thing, given that it was Superman under the mantle and still not Batman, which is something Rucka then revisited when he made Powergirl into Nightwing. But for the purposes of what Dick was inspired by when taking on the mantle of Nightwing, the post-Crisis imagining, which has completely non-Batman origins, wins out. However, either one has Dick being inspired by Superman when he chose the Nightwing identity, not Batman.

And DC rarely preferences their other properties over Batman. If you can't see that, you're blind. You know what caused the sinking of DC's other franchises? The lack of good writing or creative investment. I wonder why that is. Its been this way for years: Batman gets the big names and the other properties get stuck with scraps. And as for moving talent around, I rarely see that. How many non-Batman projects has Snyder been on? One Superman book. That's it. Besides Batman stuff, what did DC do with Brubaker when they had the chance?

Actually, what really notable mainstream (i.e. in-continuity) thing did DC really do with Morrison besides Batman for the years leading up to the New 52. The only thing I can think of was his Vertigo work and 52, the latter of which was like 11 years ago and the former was in the 80s.

If you think DC doesn't have a strong preference for grabbing A-list creators for their Batman titles as opposed to their other titles, you're really naïve.

And Johns is known for Batman work??? Hahahahah. Johns is probably the only creator at DC who is better known because of anything but Batman. Nobody talks about his Batman. They talk about his GL, JSA, and Action Comics.

As of what has sunk the other franchises, yeah it is partly the Silver Age fanboyism. But that is actually driven in part by the lack of creative experimentation and faith in those properties. They don't think Flash or GA or WW can ever go beyond a certain point, so they simply relegate those books to a status quo where they were their most successful and stick some non-exceptional writer on it. If DC had the guts to put as much creative initiative behind properties like Flash as they do behind Batman, then they'd be in a different position. Johns's GL actually serves as an example of how that can work when done well. But unfortunately, it also serves as an example of how, when an A-list writer leaves a property that's not Batman, DC just goes back to putting it on the back-burner once again. They're starting to invest more in other properties with Rebirth, but their follow through is something that will have to be seen in time to come.

Once again you have to resort to attacking me, you just cant help it can you? and then you get butt hurt when I call it out. Yes go ahead, poll people on a neutral site about whether they remember Deathstroke from the Arkham games or TT and then make the same poll about SOB. Many people who watched TT didn't even know he was Deathstroke, they just go back and realize he was Deathstroke after being exposed to his more recent appearances, all they remember is a guy named Slade. Besides it still doesn't refute anything I said so try again.

Brave and the Bold was a book about Batman and some other guest star, this guy never faced WW again. So that's the first strike against you, him teaming up with other losers in those run of the mill super villain teams doesn't really change anything. Even recently he was tagging alongside Outsider,Signal Man and Blockbuster in John's JSA, all united by one theme "D-list Batman baddies", that's the second strike. The character has been in Batman exclusive media, strike 3. But lets say I agree with you, lets assume he's not a Batman(as if Bat fans are dying for Copperhead) then so what?

This guy went from contortionist thief to snake guy(cause deal with the devil) to getting killed and replaced by another contortionist thief to getting gender bent to becoming a snake man again to co existing side by side with his gender bent version and you're actually wondering why Ayer didn't use him? LOL. There is 0 consistency to Copperhead.

So what if it's over? bring me the biggest development with Question in the last 15 years, just do it or shut up.

I'm using history, I literally gave you Merlyn as an example and who exactly will she bring? the sole story that tied her with the League (Red Hood) also ended with her leaving. Maybe you should actually read for once. Cheshire became a member because she became a part of Batman's world, if she leaves she will lose association. She wont be dragging Ra's with her to Titans if that's what you're day dreaming about.

Or maybe Snyder and Tynion are just incapable of working on other properties, has that thought ever occurred to you? Claremont was a big time creator but he's known almost exclusively for X-Men, Dixon was big in the 90's and his resume is almost entirely Bat related, some creators just cant work everywhere. Tynion in particular is a flop creator every time he's removed from Snyder's shadow at DC. King though has worked on Omega Men and he's working on Babylon, and Orlando got Supergirl and will get JLA. Tomasi and Gleason were moved to Superman so plz just stop. As for Berganza, not my fault or that of Bat fanboys, if he's got something on his boss then he'll harm the company no matter where he is.

Such as? and I honestly dont care about Kobra enough anyway, the DCU can have him for all I care but what I do know is that character lost any semblance of direction once he stopped fighting the Outsiders. He just kept strutting around until Johns jobbed him off. Then he fell to the way side again, he may still be on the way side for all I know.

Ah comic history, lets also put that on the poll and see if anyone cares. Besides none of those other characters went on to become Nigthwing foes. Once DC decided to orbit him around N-wing and GA it was just a matter of time before he threw down with Batman. I'm just surprised it took this long, it's pretty simple, cant you see the simplicity of the process? once he became too popular for the Titans he started fighting Batlite and now that he has became too popular for the Batlite he's fighting Batman. At the core it's the degradation of the Titans franchise that is to blame.

It makes him an anti-Batman, pretty sure that's what I was saying.

No people just dont want Cyborg on JL period. They think he's just good enough to be a Titans supporting character, not JL or solo material. The character never had a solo series as a member of the Titans, his history may have made him a better character but it didn't make him a high profile character. Ergo Titans flunked at giving it's characters anything, remember the Donna Troy series? or the Arsenal ongoing? remember Cassie Sandsmarks' book? Deathstroke is the ONLY character to get an ongoing from the Titans and that book proceeded to separate him from the Titans and move him in to the larger DCU. I'm sure you'll bring up Conner and Bart but those characters had ongoings before they joined TT and they got them on the strength of the Superman and Flash brands.

Way to dodge the point, the original Nightwing was Superman inspired by Batman, period, full stop, that's the core of the concept,the actual intent, the absolute truth. Dick was then inspired by Superman and the rest is history. But I notice you trying to grasp at straws by separating continuity, ok I'll humor you, yeah the Dixon revision had nothing to do with Batman but it revised Superman's role as well. Dick wasn't inspired by Supes, just some myth Supes told him. Rucka later made Chris Kent Nightwing and according to Rucka Nightwing was giant Bat like God who's picture I just posted, still the fricking same thing. The current version of Dick was inspired by the Bat creature(Robin War). So with the exception of a single sentence from Dixon the Nightwing identity still has links to Batman as far as Dick is concerned. The latest twist is that Dick may have subconsciously been influenced by owls. So Dick has either been influenced by a Batman inspired Superman(Judas Contract) or a Batgod of Krypton(current).

Maybe you shouldn't wonder too much, the lack of creative investment is due to creators not being allowed to work with what they want to work with. Snyder couldn't do more Superman because he was being attacked for "too much Lois and too much Pre-Crisis Superman" by the Nuperman supporters. It's clear he had no desire to write SM/WW and the other Nuperman related stuff. That was a largely a problem with Nuperman, Morrison and Pak were the only ones interested in him. The rest of the creators then had to be shepherded by the editorial. Wally West lovers couldn't write him for years because Borey Allen was priority, Stewart and Rayner writers have been sidelined for not prostrating before Hal Jordan. The management and a certain creator's fanboyism is the root of this problem, people like Steve Orlando and Tynion are all noted for being readers throughout the 90's. They have no interest in the characters Johns and Didio have wanted to push, THAT is the root of the problem, THAT is why there is lack of creative investment. In these circumstances creators will just go with the franchise that actually allows them to write character's they're interested in. What DC simply needs to do is get rid of Johns and Didio, then watch the creative investment return, as long as the new management is more youthful.

The A-listers want to work with Batman for the reasons I provided, especially if they're more fresh faced. Hickman for instance is more interested in LOSH. The younger faces are not interested in the Silver Age and it's relics.

Johns these days has the tagline of " New York times best selling author of Batman Earth One" attached to his name every time he is introduced. Guess you haven't noticed have you?

When was Barry Allen ever more successful than Wally? certainly not before DC wrecked Wally in to pieces.

Wally still has the 2 best runs on Flash ever written.

Wally still has the 2 most well regarded cartoon series under his belt.

Wally still has Morrison's JLA and Wolfman's Titans

Barry has a successful tv that launched 2 years ago and one animated movie with him taking center stage about 4 years ago.

Everything Barry has is recent, every thing Barry that's worth a damn was given to him by sacrificing Wally.

Is this Batman's fault? DC RUINED a property because some people needed to stroke their fanboysism. Batman is successful by standing on his own feet, what he gets is what he deserves.

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entropy_aegis

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@zeeguy91: Oh? and what does that do to disprove what I was saying? has Slade been exposed as a Batman villain in various different media? yup has he been exposed in more media as a Batman villain than a Titans villain? yup, is Slade's exposure in Batman media more contemporary? yup and if these DTV's are not watched by many then why does WB keep making them? besides you cant even use this argument because you keep clinging on to comics history to support your position. How many people read comics? the absolute minority when it comes entertainment medium from what I see.

Another Bat villain,congratulations.

Doesn't change the fact that her taking up the mantle is still the biggest thing to happen to Question in forever. What would she bring to the table in Titans stories as a LOA member that she didn't bring in the past when she acted solo? nothing. Her connections will be chopped to pieces when she's leaves Batman's world period. It will be the same thing as Merlyn, LOA fodder in Batman centric stories, and a solo villain in GA stories. Would you say DC is a one trick pony next time Superman faces Ultra-Humanite? I see no problem with Kobra fighting the first superhero he waged war against. You have no problem with characters introduced in Batman's orbit leaving him but heavens forbid if the opposite happens.

He fought Robin multiple times, more so than any other character that's for sure and once they were done with JC they did an episode in Season 3 in which Slade haunted Robin(and only Robin). That was his only appearance in that entire season and then in S4 he specifically was paired with Robin when working against Trigon. As for not meeting Batman, what does that have to do with anything? if someone walks up to you and says he wants to be your dad, would you not call that an attempt at replacing your father? who cares if the creep had met your dad or not. Batman enjoys the reputation of being a stone cold prick who manipulates people for his benefit, half the time his conflict with his friends and family is based on his need to control. Now ofcourse he doesn't manipulate his family but they often seem to think he does. Now Slade is a guy who actually DOES manipulate which makes him an anti-Batman.

Could've,should've,would've, that's not really my headache.

He's gotten an ongoing as a member of JLA, he's getting a twice shipped book as a member of JLA. That's more than anything Titans ever did for him.People want him to go back to the Titans because they're convinced he's a flop solo character who works only the best with those Titans in those specific circumstances. In other words they're saying "stop trying to make him a thing, he'll never be a thing".

Nightwing only has an identity outside of Batman theoretically...nah scratch that, didn't Supes invent that identity as homage to Batman when he lost his powers in Kandor? yeah I remember now. It simply means Batman, just not Batman cause Krypton didn't have Bats but Nightwings.

A NIGHTWING
A NIGHTWING

If he's the main villain then he'll undoubtedly shine, this is an argument for later, if he sucks in the movie and gets overshadowed then I'll be the first complain.

Tom King was introduced to the comic world via Grayson, the Bat office specifically found him and then Snyder rooted for him to become his replacement, Johns then offered him the job and he took it. There no harm, no foul, a simple and innocent process. As for the quality of his book, you'd still complain even if he was knocking it out of the park, probably even more. Tanking Wally, LOSH, New Gods and Conner Hawke is not on Batman on ANY level.

Creators want to work on Batman, they find work and then DC moves them to other properties. David Finch for instance only came to DC because he wanted to draw Batman, he did so and then moved around. Romita Jr is similar, Daniel got his writing gig on Batman first before he moved to Hawkman and Deathstroke. The talent moves around plenty, just because they make a start on Batman or do their most high profile work is not my fault. Even Johns gets recognized more for his work on Batman than he does for Teen Titans or JSA or Superman.

I'm not concerned with DC's business strategies, I'm sure they have more qualified people making those decisions. All I know is that if creators want to work on Batman or any other property then they should have free reign to do so. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. However continuing this discussion, a good reason for the decline of other properties is down to the fanboyism and childishness. If a creator wants to work on John Stewart then he has no means to do so because DC policy is Johns way or the high way. Wally was burned for Borey Allen, all the hard work to establish the street level mythos of Conner Hawke was tanked in favor of more Oliver Queen/Dinah Lance romance(which in turn tanks all the hard work established with Black Canary). The unapologetic nostalgia driven fanboyism is what's killing DC, little surprise that fresh creators with little affinity for has been era then are attracted to Batman.

And pretty much all viewers I know call it a Batman ripoff, see I can say that too and be done with it. Everyone with internet reads news, including entertainment news and every time Arrow gets an article there's a good chance there will be a Batman reference, and there certainly were for the first 3 seasons whether people post or not on forums is inconsequential. These days though Arrow articles talk about Olcity and Felicity.

@orangebat: Figures, I had only read his Richard Dragon showings.

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entropy_aegis

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@zeeguy91 said:

@entropy_aegis: A LOT of that stuff flew under the radar. That cartoon series, for example, was promptly cancelled because a lot of fans...just didn't watch it. Deathstroke is more so sold as a general DCU villain than a Batvillain.

Yes. But unlike Croc, he has long established history with the Squad and was a founding member back during Legends. Also, he's probably more well known for that than he is for being a Batvillain. Croc is a recognizable Batman villain. So when people look at him, they're more likely to think "oh look, more Batman stuff."

And you do somewhat gloss over instances where the LoA have been used as primary antagonists in other characters' stories. Like, for example, the Green Arrow/Black Canary series from the late aughts when they kidnapped Connor Hawke. Also, Montoya hasn't been the Question for several years now. It was precipitated because of the New 52 reboot, but still. And furthermore, what makes you so sure that when Cheshire moves back to the Titans (of she does) that she'll cut ties with the LoA?? I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that. And also like you said, Kobra moved away from Batman and became more of a JSA villain, especially during Johns's run. The Kobra have become more just general DCU villains as opposed to just Batfamily villains. Lady Eve appearing in one issue of the recent Nightwing series doesn't change that, and honestly, that's the way it should stay.

And Prof. Ojo has a history of fighting Hal Jordan. He's a GL villain and a Richard Dragon villain.

And Slade rarely threw down in the TT series. That's the point. Darkseid will still throw down with Superman or whoever when he needs to, but until then, he stays out of the conflict. That's identical to the way Slade in TT operated. Batman, on the other hand, literally throws himself into the fray. He strategizes and calculates, but he never just sits back and lets others fight on his behalf. Also, its pretty impossible for Slade in the TT show to try and "replace" Batman when he never even knew Batman. He only knew Dick. Again, you never even knew Batman in that series. Dick never even mentioned him.

And Slade is a Nightwing villain, why? Did they meet in the pages of a Batman comic? Was Dick with Batman when the core of their rivalry was formed? THAT'S the difference. What makes him a Robin/Nightwing villain and not a Batvillain is because pretty much all of the stories where he has actually been a villain have been Titans or Nightwing comics, almost never a Batman comic. Dick has almost always faced Slade in the context of not being part of "Batman and Robin" and simply being "Robin, member of the Teen Titans" or just "Nightwing."

Also, what gives you the notion that Slade's connection with Batman in the comics is going to come to the full scope of him now being a Batvillain? He fought Batman once in his solo series in the 90s. Then Daniel's run utilized Batman (I didn't read it, so I wouldn't know) and now Priest is simply using Batman in one story he has planned. Priest has also said that he plans to play up Slade's connection to the Titans again in a retelling of the Judas Contract. That would seem to firmly establish him as a Titans villain, no?

However, the funniest thing though is that you think you've won the argument when you haven't. You do know that you've essentially played into what myargument, right? You've proven my point for me that the Batman franchise, like an amoeba, has basically swallowed up everything that was once distinct from it.

And whats more, you don't see that as a problem? That pretty much every popular or major character in the DCU is at some point assimilated into the Batman franchise because DC relies on the latter way too much?

If you make Batman into the veritable Kevin Bacon of the DC Universe, what does that do to the other franchises? Trick question. It in effect makes pretty much every corner of he DC Universe subordinate to Batman. DC essentially becomes the "Batman, Batman, and more Batman (and some Superman on the side)" company, which is the complaint that people have lobbed against it for years, especially when they pull crap like having Batman kill and/or job Darkseid.

Although, I wouldn't expect some Batfanboy to see the problem with that.

Oh, and I realize the Titans franchise is not what it once was. But here's the thing: if you at all want to return the franchise to its former status, you don't dissolve it and assimilate the characters into other franchises. That's especially true now that the Titans seem to finally be getting back on the right track with Abnett. What other notable villains do the Titans have? Trigon and that's about it. DC would be stupid to not try and revitalize the Titans and just fall back into the pattern of being "all Batman, all the time" that they've been guilty of for the past few years.

And I don't care if Arrow tends to ape Batman. I know that. You know that. But the general audience does NOT. In the end, its still about GA. In fact, your apparent distaste for what Arrow does with Batman mythology is pretty much what I think of them using Deathstroke in this movie: its unfairly aping other characters' villains. So why are you sitting her defending THIS movie for doing what you hate Arrow for doing? That is, unless you're just a Bat-fanboy, in which case I don't need you to explain your reasons. I know them.

The Arkham games flew under the radar? SOB flew under the radar? and I admit BTB was not successful but it's another instance of Deathstroke being a Batman villain and in the case he was the main villain. Plus it was developed by the same guy who created TT TAS. He's been angled as both a Bat villains and general DC character,also unlike Titans all of that material is much more recent.

I dunno, if they wanted a scaly guy with jaws then their options weren't incredibly diverse and I dont think Blockbuster fits that category especially since he existed only to get killed from the on set.

That wasn't the League, just some fools working for Shado. Montoya taking up the Question mantle is probably the biggest thing to happen to that brand in the last 15 years,unless you're counting the brief appearances of the New-52 magical entity. If you have some other major Question development then feel free to post. I see no reason why Cheshire will keep her links to Batman's world when she moves on from it(assuming she does), surely you're not suggesting that she'll be taking Ra's,Bane and KGBeast with her? As for Kobra, his limited mainstream exposure has tied him to Batman in the past so there's a good chance any future showings will also involve Batman. Overall DC has routinely shied away from using the concept, especially in the contemporary political climate, the concept was dead after Johns JSA, got a short lived revival in the JSA vs Kobra series and then died again with the New-52. Rebirth has seen a revival of Kobra but once again from the Batman side of things.

Didn't know Ojo faced GL, still it's fricking Ojo, he's been more relevant in this conversation than at DC for decades lol.

Slade threw down plenty with Robin and then with TT when he was enhanced by Trigon , also with Beast Boy when he had him separated from the rest of the team . Darkseid doesn't throw down because it's beneath him, with Slade it's because he knew he'd get his face stomped. The same rules apply to Batman. People recognize Robin and associate him with Batman. The title of the video is misleading but you get the gist

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And here's this

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If Batman weren't embargoed he would have appeared but beyond that the writers hammered the anti-Batman position Slade was occupying in these episodes rather thoroughly.

And I'd actually agree with you if and IF the Titans were actually a hot property. Infact if that was the case then Slade would have been squaring off against Dick in a Titans film and we wouldn't even be having this argument. But fact here is that the Titans have flunked, Nightwing and Wally are the only 2 characters to take off and they took off because of their home franchises not Titans, Cyborg has been getting a push for 5 years and still struggling, it should also be noted that he's he's being pushed as a JL character. Deathstroke is the only hit character from that franchise, this entire problem stems from the fact that WB is not interested in Titans but very interested in Slade. So what happens in a comic is irrelevant because those circumstances are no longer applicable. Nightwing is a Batman character, Robin is a Batman character and there is a very good chance we might see the Nightwing/Deathstroke rivalry play out, except involving Batman not Titans.

I said Priest wants to use him as an anti-Batman, nowhere did I say that he never planned on utilizing the Titans. If he and Abnett can restore the old magic and create confidence in the property then you'll be seeing Slade vs the Titans on film pretty soon. I honestly dont have a problem with it.

No I dont see the problem because those franchises tanked not because of Batman but because of insincerity from the creators themselves. Not Batman's fault that DC's/Johns silver age crush resulted in Wally West tanking, not Batman's fault that Wolfman used the Titans to launch Deathstroke to stardom while the franchise itself crashed, not Batman's fault they didn't continue their work on JSA/Kobra, not Batman's fault Cry for Justice was written, not Batman's fault that New Gods were shat on in Countdown and DOTNG and it's not Batman's fault that all the hard work with Conner Hawke was swept aside for Oliver Queen. The reason Batman succeeds and therefore attracts the best is because he keeps reinventing himself, the others are consistently subjected to the fanboy nostalgia followed by a quick reboot when when things dont go their way.

Superman has jobbed DS worse than anything Batman ever did, ROBW and RR are still heads and shoulders above most Superman/Darkseid material ever written. If you're going to complain about Darkseid jobbing then take it up with the Superman guys. All Batman ever did was shoot a frail Darkseid with a bullet that DS himself created which promptly resulted in him getting blasted in to the stone age from where he became the architect of his own life (one of pain and misery ). Sure Batman has incredible PIS moments but Darkseid's fall from grace is on Superman writers.

Deathstroke was assimilated in to the larger DCU a long time ago anyway but they cant make a larger DCU film and have him show up there. With the Titans in a shoddy state they have chosen Batman because it makes the most sense to them(certainly does financially).

Actually the GA audience knows it pretty well, they've watched the Nolan films and that's all they need. Type Arrow Batman ripoff(or just Arrow and Batman) and see the results, the overwhelming majority will not be from comic fan sites or involve us fanboys. It'll involve the casual crowd, if anything it's the comic fans that defend Arrow and play down the similarities. As for my distaste for Arrow, it's not down to the characters they use, I'm well aware that in their attempts to construct a DC universe for themselves they're bound to use some Batman characters. My problem is the eff up(Huntress, Anarky) and the blatant plagiarism of stories, for instance they literally copied the Batman/Ra's story from the comics and then proceeded to present it and by and large they ripped off a lot of Rises in their use of Slade. If Arrow had a shred of original story telling I wouldn't have give a crap even if Joker and Catwoman showed up, heck I'd welcome Selina interacting with Cap Cold. As it stands though they just replicate the Batman stories and dynamics with their characters, presenting boot leg versions of the characters they're ripping off.

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@zeeguy91: One DTV, one game, one cartoon series and one upcoming movie. He's been exposed as a Batman villain in four different mediums in a significant capacity. I haven't even mentioned Arkham Knight and Arkham City Lockdown which I would put under less significant category along with his appearances in Smallville, FP Paradox, Crisis on 2 Earths. Other fairly significant appearances include DC Universe Online, Injustice and and MK vs DC. Either it's Batman or it's just general DC related stuff. I will get down to Arrow and TT later

Blockbuster is a Batman character...you knew that right? besides they wanted a water character not a brute.

If you're going by comics history then Merlyn and his LOA connections are only relevant to Batman. When was the last time you picked up a GA comic with Merlyn that also happened to have the League? his association was created when he was employed by the Sensei to kill Batman, his later connections to the League were training Cass and Damian, then he worked for Talia etc. His LOA association has nothing of relevance to GA's story or world, the GA reader wouldn't even know if they just followed him in GA comics. That was a different Dragon, the real one is still a non entity not to mention Batman has more links to the real guy than GA anyway. Cheshire is a recent addition to the League and so it happens she's been affiliated with Red Hood, KGBeast and Bane ever since she joined them in the New-52 era, she'll go back to the Titans eventually and will have nothing to do with the League when she does but for the time being yes she WAS assimilated in to Batman's world not the other way around. Hook and Ojo are non entities, also wasn't Ojo a Richard Dragon villain? In all these examples the common link is that none of those characters were assimilated in to their franchises and became big in the process, they either faded away or came back as fodder that Batman thrashed occasionally. At the end of the day the League is Ra's and Talia, all the biggest and well known stories are centered around them and Batman. Hook and Ojo might as well not exist.

That takes care of the League, now these other characters you just mentioned, you do realize that Batman was the first superhero Kobra encountered right? and then he spent the next decade battling Batman and the Outsiders before moving on to Checkmate/SS and eventually JSA. Currently Kobra is a player in Nightwing, teased in Batman and faced off against Batman and Deadshot in the back up of SS#1. Mainstream wise Kobra were fairly major players in Batman Beyond and had a one off appearance in YJ where btw he faced Robin and was locked in a drug war with Bane. Now I dont consider Kobra a Batman character but there is a substantial link, arguably more than any other single franchise with the possible exception of JSA. Renee Montoya replaced Vic Sage as the Question and besides the Question too has faded away, I like the character and hope DC restores Sage to his glory but till that happy day his side of the universe is defunct. Scandal is relevant only to Secret Six,a team that has more characters from Batman's world than any other franchise, from their first ongoing series and onward half the team literally comprises of Batman characters( Bane, Catman,Deadshot then Catman,Strix, Ventriloquist) she was Bane's adopted daughter as well for Pete's sakes. Shado is the only character mentioned to actually be exclusive to GA without any pre-conditions.

NTT ended and then Nightwing came back to Batman's fold, that happy period lasted little more than a decade, today the Titans franchise is in tatters and barely scraping along(largely the reason Slade isn't making a debut in a Titans movie). Nightwing has since gotten four ongoing solos' as part of Batman's world, the other Titans characters of that era have nothing to show except Wally and that's because he became the Flash. No seriously I just realized that minus Nightwing only Starfire and Cyborg can claim an ongoing series from that generation and both got one just last year with a cumulative issue count of merely 24 put together to Nightwing's 210 (roughly).Mind you I haven't even counted his era as Batman, specifically the Morrison penned Batman and Robin series. Robin is a Batman character plain and simple, Nightwing was atleast an attempt to move Robin away but even that failed as I've just proven. I dont see any point in debating Robin, if we reached a point where Slade is being recognized as a Robin villain then I think this entire issue is 90% settled.

Except that Slade was a hands on guy, sure he preferred the shadows but that didn't stop him from throwing down in martial combat with Robin. But still if a character plans on replacing Batman in any capacity then I can logically assume that he's an anti-Batman. Murakami could have gone with anything,ANYTHING but he chose that angle and as I mentioned in my previous post Murakami proceeded to do an inversion of that same storyline(switching son with father) in Beware the Batman when he again could have used anyone,ANYONE. What this shows to me is that Murakami was angling Deathstroke as a Batman villain even back in TT and when he got the chance to actually use Batman(embargoed in TT) he proceeded to fulfill his wish and did so with an eerily similar story.

I wont deny that Daniel's run was crap but good news on that score is that Priest has no intention of following it, bad news for you though in another way LOL. Deathstroke is becoming a Bat villain, it's almost inevitable at this point. I also dont see how Bane's affects anything, his presence doesn't prevent Slade from developing ties of his own. Supes and WW never developed a meaningful connection, they just fought Joker and moved on.

Arrow is looked upon as Batman ripoff show, you'd be hard pressed to find a single article about Arrow that doesn't have a Batman reference. It's a reputation that not only Arrow itself has created but one that it relishes. I already mentioned in a previous post directed to another user that Guggenheim actually said "yeah he's a Batman ripoff that's why" in response to a question some fan asked about the show's use of Ra's al Ghul and the reasoning behind it. If Arrow actually bothered ever shedding it's Bat ripoff reputation then maybe you'd have a point but a show that so blatantly tried to ape Nolan's films and later Batman comics( that's when it was watchable) doesn't feed your case, it actually weakens it. Mind you Berlanti has also come out and said that Arrow Suicide Squad was a test run for the movie, there's a strong chance he'll say the same about Slade 2 years from now but even if he doesn't, these statements strengthen my case. You could look at Arrow Slade as a test run for his eventual throw down with Batman.Btw I think he'll say it, to try and get some credit.

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@zeeguy91: With the exception of TT series, which went out of it's way to not call him Deathstroke, the "outside" audience has been repeatedly exposed to Deathstroke the not TT villain.

They wanted a hideous water based character, simple.

Dragon is a non-entity, he faded away after his series, then got a series decades later and faded away after that. The MA part of DC is pretty much all LOA now and those guys belong to Batman especially since Conner Hawke too has faded away. It's pretty much a Batman corner exclusively now.

Ok Katana is a Batman character I guess but if she's replacing Tiger then it's pretty much the same thing. Croc is there due to the movie and I've already made it clear why he was in the movie to begin with.

But TT Slade sought Robin as his apprentice and heir, that's the plot of season 1 of that series. In seasons 3 and 4 he was more or less solely connected to Robin. Only Season 2 did something different and that season chose a JC adaptation. Point is that for a layman watching that cartoon the series did it's absolute best to position Robin and Deathstroke together. Besides if Batman were evil do you think he would go out and beat up thugs? no he'll use his resources,tech and ability to manipulate while chilling from his cave. I wont pretend SOB did a good job with Deathstroke, that Slade sucked and so did the movie but making him Ra's wannabe heir automatically drives homes the Batman comparison. I know Bane and Talia have history but now Slade has that history as well, this has now even been canonized in comics as of Deathstroke 17-20 of the pre-Rebirth series.

I'd also like to mention that TT animated series and Beware the Batman series both of which feature Deathstroke heavily and are hands down his best showings in animation were both produced by Glen Murakami. So yes he was angling Slade as a Batman villain even back in Teen Titans, little surprise then that Slade had a similar design, a story involving "sons" and was played up a mastermind behind the shadows, complete with a lot of misdirection about his secret identity. Beware Slade was definitely an anti-Batman and that version as I've proven was a spiritual successor to the Teen Titans version. Watch the following episodes of that series if you can:

22-26.

Mainstream Slade has been angled as a Batman villain, the movie is merely a culmination of what started back in Teen Titans.

Shrug.

Ok I'll stop telling you.

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@zeeguy91: Ok and what does that have anything to do with this thread?

Evidence provided:Ayer on Shark

Katana is a Batman character? news to me. Bronze Tiger's claim to fame was being a member of the League of Assassins who killed Kathy Kane, kicked Batman and then reformed and joined SS. He later trained Cass Cain and for the last few years has once again has been either affiliated with the League or has been popping up in Batman comics. If SS is a collection of characters from the DCU then which part do you think Tiger comes from?

As for those other characters, what they also have in common is that unlike Flag,Lawton,Digger and apparently Harley now is that they did not become staples. They came and went, they couldn't become one with the franchise, they also lack the drawing power.

Deathstroke in Teen Titans spent the first season trying to make Robin his dark apprentice, even going as far to say that he might become like a father to him. What exactly is that if not being an anti-Batman? mind you that series as a whole pushed the Robin/Deathstroke rivalry beyond Slade's interactions with any other character save Terra. Nice to see you've ignored Beware the Batman btw and SOB pushed him as Ra's wannabe heir. In all these cases Slade occupied a wannabe Batman position, he either wanted Robin as his heir, or wanted to be Ra's heir or wanted to be Alfred's favored son, hence anti-Batman. Excluding Arrow and Arkham Origins these are his most significant mainstream appearances. But even AO is a Batman product while Arrow itself has created and relishes the reputation of being a poor mans Batman show. Mainstream Slade has been either angled as a Batman villain wittingly or unwittingly or just has been an outright Batman villain.

You could have tried though couldn't you?

I'm just offering you a practical discourse, I'd gladly welcome it if someone did the same to me.

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Your opinion isn't being suppressed, your opinion is being redirected somewhere potentially productive wise guy. There was no slight against Batman either so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to defend Batman from something that didn't happen. I told you in simple terms that you should stop worrying about DC's perception, you're the insecure guy.

Croc made it to SS because Ayer couldn't to King Shark properly or sth and not because "MOAR BATMAN", try again wise guy, Deadshot is a classic character to that franchise, Harley is there but Ivy isn't, nor is Babs, you know characters who were part of Ostranders first series. If SS is Batmanized then it's been that way since it's inception. As for Joker, he has no links to the franchise once Harley is removed. Deathstroke atleast has history with Batman,Dick,Cass and Damian. Bronze Tiger is also a Batman character these days anyway, his biggest claim to fame even back in the day was being a member of the League of Assassins who killed Kathy Kane and fought Batman and then he joined SS, dont care if it's DCEU or BatmanU, not my headache.

You obviously are butt hurt by the idea of what you perceive as the "BatmanU", it's not wrong.

Actually SS was supposed to be a collection of D-list villains from DCU not characters specifically chosen from rogues galleries. For the longest time they didn't have any any Superman and Wonder Woman villains, even Cheetah, Parasite and Zod are recent. So yeah it has had a heavy Batman influence, more members with connections to Batman have been part of this team than any other franchise and the same goes for Secret Six and it's been that way from the start. This isn't new or recent period. Batman is also about to get his own SS btw and it will have Bronze Tiger LOL. Still Slade doesn't have more history with them than Batman, your entire argument came down to history not what made "sense". It only makes sense to you because you're opposed to Batman being affiliated with him, it's all about Batman, that's what it boils down to.

Anti-Batman refers to evil Batman, the Wrath went by the name anti-Batman back when Barr created him, the term originated from that character. So now can you stop babbling about Joker being anti-Batman? Joker has nothing to do with anti-Batman,I would've dumped this info sooner but I wanted to see how much you'd reach, suffice to say you reached a LOT. Still Deathstroke from the Teen Titans show and Beware the Batman series is absolutely an anti-Batman and if they go that route with him for the movie then so will he.

No idiot I'm helping you, I offered you a way to channel your frustrations, your refusal just makes it clear that you're an attention seeker. Your refusal to take any practical steps confirms it, you just want to complain.

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@zeeguy91:

Bat fandom? I dont care about Bat fandom, Batman's got hordes of fans that can defend themselves, Jesus and you accuse me of moving the goal posts. You're just talking gibberish at this point, you just have a need to attack me. The real truth is that YOU'RE the insecure fanboy who's hijacked this entire thread to go on a rant about how DC is perceived as the Batman company, ergo butt hurt. Stop complaining, let DC worry about their perception.

Joker isn't a Suicide Squad character, yet he me made his DCEU debut in a Suicide Squad film, your complaints are completely and utterly meaningless.

You're not expressing an opinion on this film, you're expressing butt hurt over DC's potential perception.

So Batman cant have him but everyone else can? yeah butt hurt sense tinging, so much for justice for the Titans and all the crap about his notable Titans stories and history and whatever.

This particular debate is over from my end, it's rather clear what makes you so sore here.

So what would you call Zod and Venom genius?

I didn't deny there were other anti-Batman characters, I just said that it was one angle they could go for with Slade. What they actually go with is something I have next to no clue about.

My obsession with Johns is driven from your equal obsession with preventing him from bearing the brunt of criticism. It's fascinating really, you're doing that even in this post, yeah sure Affleck forced him to include Deathstroke, lets pretend that happened. It's DC's fault, it's Afflecks fault and maybe it's Johns fault too as far you're concerned,this is classic protectionism. I wouldn't be obsessed with Johns if you hadn't brought up all that crap about history, Johns should at least be aware of history. With Johns power over DCEU films, his history as an actual comic book writer ,his involvement with the Batman script and the fact that he's the most accessible person to whom you could voice your problems with, I'm literally giving you a bullseye to target but you insist on being a loose canon and fire everywhere else. Take it up with him on Twitter, that's what I'm saying simpleton. Go do something about it if it hurts you so much.

But you're willing to drop Deathstroke for no reason, reviews or otherwise, and I would expect a guy so passionately against the very idea of Deathstroke being in this film to just outright not watch the movie, regardless of reviews. You're the one complaining incessantly, just go and do something practical instead of whining about DC's perception.

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@zeeguy91: It it weren't for me jumping in and taking away all your attention it would have been a heck of a lot more than just two people.

Who says I'm fighting you? you're the one who's upset. I just told you that they dont care about history and all the other criteria you used previously. You then double back and tell me character X showed up in comic Y, animated cartoon Z and has 1,2,3 years of history so it makes sense to use him in movie A, then I tell you again why it doesn't matter, the process then repeats over and over. My point of contention this entire time are these criterion you keep using again and again not Slade and his appearance in Batman. That decision is made and done and over with so I see no point in debating that with you over that. Get it now?

Express whatever you want but stick to the topic because some of us may want to talk about the possibilities of Deathstroke in the movie without being told by someone repeatedly that he isn't a Batman villain.

Arrow has made a career of it, Batman doesn't borrow, this is a rare exception and I'm tempted to believe it happened because WB wants to launch him as a solo character or a recurring villain in their universe. Bad luck to the Titans that they haven't been relevant in a while and their dependable roster is reliant on having the rest of the universe established first. In simple terms WB values Slade more than the Titans, that's what this is all about not Batman. You think Batman needs this guy? LOL, this is about Slade and how much he's risen in popularity over the Titans that WB wants to launch him without them. Btw I still consider him a Titans villain but it's not uncommon to find people who disagree with that notion. But it's clear that if not Batman then DC would have utilized some other franchise to launch him, most likely Suicide Squad.

So following your logic for just one second, Green Goblin is the anti-Spider Man and not Venom, Lex is the anti-Superman and not Zod. Back to reality, Joker is an anti-Batman yes but he's MORE than that as well, he's also a crime boss, lunatic etc etc. He's covers many different archetypes.

Who are these "every non-Superman" guys? all talk but nothing to back it up and how is it bad writing without you even reading it? oh and you choose to drop a perfectly good book because Deathstroke pulled a disappearing act? I may have social issues but you clearly have psychological ones. Nobody cares how you interpret anything. I've proved my point with an actual example, you just dismissed it as all wrong because it doesn't suit your agenda.

The reason I'm obsessed with Johns is because you are being incredibly dishonest here:

You talk about history and all so passionately but you refuse to say one word against the guy who should have been well aware of history.

You keep talking about DC doing this or that but you overlook that it was Johns who wrote the script with Affleck. You think Affleck had any clue who Deathstroke was before Johns told him and persuaded him to go with Slade?

Finally Johns and Berg are the head honchos of the film verse currently. The blame for this doesn't go to DC or Bat fanboys it goes to Johns and solely Johns.

You've dropped Deathstroke for no reason so to keep up the spirit I hope you wont watch the Batfleck movie or anything related to it, just promise me that and I'll stop addressing you from here on out.

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@scouterv: Why? aren't Bat fans capable of complaining? and didn't Arrow put Ollie over him? if you didn't have a problem with one then why do you have a problem with other? besides it also looks like they're building Slade towards a solo movie career or appearances in other movies. Batman is just a launch pad, there's no way they'll retire the character after the Batman film,not after the amount of time and money they've invested. It's no different than Joker making his DCEU debut in Suicide Squad.

Vertigo is one guy not a mantle, that's the eff up right there and it's just a start. The point however still stands if Daredevil doesn't require hordes of villains that have nothing to do with him then neither does Arrow. Every thing else is just strawmanship.

TDKR parts 1 and 2, BvR, Bad Blood, Assault on Arkham didn't sell the same amount and exposure is still exposure, you could even argue that overexposure was the reason Slade was screwed.

@darkdetective27:Sure but he's there, just there, if someone would do something with him then I'm all over for it but I'd rather see Hugo in film over him.