Either of the team one-shot. Flash could speed steal and literally stop his heart.
ElderElijah190's forum posts
@caocao: "Yes, his true body exist in Elysium, but it doesen´t make sense that his real body is the body of his Avatar, or not? Hadesd doesen´t have shown his true self, or Saint Seiya explained it very stupid, since they are Hades as Alone and Hades as Shun. Both reincarnated, which is the effect of the eight sense."
He has shown his real self bro.Are u trying to contradict the writter now with your own interpretation so it works out for u in this debate? Sorry but that isn't how debate works bro. I literally showed u a link from an ss wiki but you're still refusing to accept this facts. As for me bro, I don't give a fuck about what makes sense or not, all I'm doing is presenting points for a debate. I could care less about what makes sense to the writer or not like it usually is with people who provide inconsistencies for dbs. Also, I think you don't quite understand the series you're defending (no offense),Hades didn't reincarnate as shun because of 8 sense, he just picked them under the stipulations that were depicted and stated(8 sense doesn't work that way. 8 sense deals with the alaya consciousness that grants a character an access to the underworld without being under Hades rule). They're no Hades as alone and shun,they were basically possessed by him. It has always being the soul of a single Hades reincarnating to start up the Holy war once again in them both mentally and spiritually. Athena cast his soul out of shun.(it's in the link) His real body resides in Elysium,he can't cross it to the average world. Another way to prove this to u is when he died. He basically stated Elysium,hell and the super dimension would be erased with him because his life force sustained it. If another of his body or mental existence existed after then, there would be no need for him to make that statement and his worlds wouldn't have been destroyed.
"I will going with the scenario, if this Hades his true body and his exsitence is bound by his soul: From this point aus, Hakai could work. But how works Hakai if Body and Soul are separated? You can erase the body, but the Soul can escape before it can be erased."
Thanatos,hypnos and Hades real bodies all reside at Elysium were they'll got beaten. Thanatos and hypnos got humiliated even worse. If OP wanted Hades reincarnated as shun or alone he should have included that. Plus Hades soul lives in them actually if we go down your route, Athena literally cast his soul out of shun which means his soul stays in the body of his hosts.
"Also the gods in SS are immortal like Zamasu and as i said before: Even Beerus said that Hakai can´t kill immortals."
Who are immortal again? Both thanatos and hynos got one shotted by an atomic attack that doesn't operate on the spiritual and mental scale.
" A soul alone isn´t defenied as immortal in Dragonball, since Beerus can hakai souls but not Gods, or/and Immortals."
The Gods resisted it like how hax in ss is resisted but in the case of dbs, they resist hax by physical might which makes sense because dbs hasn't really done things the magical resistant way but with their physical outburst. And once again, who are immortal again? The same guys who got one shotted from atomic based attacks?
" And Beerus isn´t someone who is stupid and don´t know what he is talking about."
Actually bro, I don't give a fuck about defending beerus statement then and arguing it actually works on immortals for now. I could go down that route in the future but it isn't needed now.
"So, even if we going with this scenario, we have two points: The soul of a 8th sense user can be separated from his body. So Hakai hit only one medium and it have to hit the soul to kill his enemy."
Nope. Were did you get the fact that every 8 sense user soul can be separated from their bodies from? That's not how it works bro. And actually,hakai hits and erases the physical body as well like he did with zamatsu. And the thing about hakai is it works on the existence erasure scale.
"Hakai doesen´t work against different types of Immortals and Gods from a relevant level."
When was hakai stated not to be able to work on God's? Some God's aren't immortal like thanatos and hynos or kirito,saitama and kaguya so putting up a defence from my end against your immortal logic isn't needed for now. Note I'm not putting kirito,saitama or kaguya at Thanatos and hypnos level because that would be the most stupid thing ever but rather, I'm just pointing out the different scenarios of God's to u.
"Well, the Titans are living universes, but i yeah it wouldn´t make them to 4-D since they haven´t shown that they are living space-time continuums. Still, they have 4-D abilities and i think it is a problem to definied a 4-D being in shounen, because 90% of them fails at this point."
They got defiled by Much younger Gold knights. They have no 4D abilities at all because if they did, the gold knights wouldn't have being able to comprehend the logic behind their attacks talk more of defeating them at some point in time which they did. And so,any potential dbs God would erase them without the need to make mention of Zeno.
"Even Zeno fails, since he has a 3-D body, but on the other point he can exist without time and space. That doesen´t make sense, also that Goku can came back in the erased space-time world, which doesen´t make sense either."
3D attacks that aren't even the slightest bit on Par with Zeno erasure worked on your supposed 4D titans. Plus his erasure covers the 4D scale if needed like he did to zamatsu. The statement about the timeline getting destroyed came later from whis which means the timeline was still undergoing erasure when goku got there.
"If we going with this, then nobody in SS and in DB are 4-D. They have at max only 4-D abilities."
Well, I can't say myself. All am doing is defending dbs as always without thinking ahead unless if needed.
"Thank you. Your right and i forgot it, my bad. But it shows another problem. If Infinite Zamasu already infected this timeline, why it wasn´t n necessary or possible for Zeno to erase the other timeline as well. Why didn´t Zamasu survive it?"
Because 1:zamatsu had only consumed a small portion of Goku's past not like the future were he basically made everything his body. 2:because the world Zeno made mention of erasing was only the future timeline alongside zamatsu and not goku past timeline added to it.
"Well, 3 Base Gold Saints are needed,"
Base isn't even mentioned in the first Place. You just brought it up here. I mean the word base doesn't exist in the potentials of the gold knights. it's not like they replicated this without there clothes to consider them base then. Plus the statement associated with Athena exclamation indicates the maximum Cosmo which 3 gold knights can burn their Cosmo to is highly needed as a factor to replicate it. So it's far from the gold knights being in base but rather, it's actually replicated with the gold knights at their best.
"but for example: Leo Regulus alone has used Athena Exclamaition alone and he has a far more powerfull abilitie: Zodiac Clamation."
Bro Leo Regulus was amped when he replicated this feats you mentioned so it doesn't really change much. The supposed Shijima who happened to destroy those universes isn't the strongest gold knight of his generation but that was Cain whose strongest attack only made the universe tremble. Saga was also stated to be the strongest gold saint of his time not Shaka.
"Also it is possible that both Virgo Saints can create and destroy universes by themselfs, since they are stated as the closest to gods."
Having a Cosmo closest to the gods that needs prove to be multi universal in the first place doesn't automatically makes them able to destroy universes and create them. Shaka himself was the one who introduced Athena exclamation,and praised it universal aoe as absolute and stated it was banned by athena due to its destructive force. This makes his multi universal feat even more ridiculously an outlier or an highly inconsistent feat.
" An outlier is more that Apollo with Pegasus and Athena did."
I didn't get your point here bro.
"God Cloth gives him the power to kill other gods, To kill the gods, you have to be destroy the concepets of those, because they came back."
Nope, nothing indicated it gives him the ability to kill immortals otherwise they would have still being able to put Hades down at the end of the day although I'm not really sure Hades is immortal but that's btw at the moment of our current conversation. Now Athena, was the one who came and erased Hades body and soul which means the God knights attacks was still the regular atomic based attacks that's still far behind the capabilities of Actual God's like Athena but still,seiya as the God saints still one shotted thanatos and hypnos.
"Well, at least he operating on a single timeline, like Zeno did. But i think about the 4-D concept. You´re probably right or i could agreed with some of your points here. But then we have nobody in both verses who is 4-D or higher, they have only 4-D abilities."
Everything you stated here is perfect and I totally agree so there would be no need for me to address this aspect.
@caocao: Bro it doesn't matter what version of kronos/Chronos/Cronus we're talking about. I already addressed them both just in case the versions we're talking about varies from the one I've in mind. I would wait for your reply on my pending post on Saturday or you can make it earlier if u want to. I would then futlrther my claims by then.
@caocao: "You know that Hades is the older brother of Zeus, right? Don´t know why you think that Cronus isn´t the father of Hades: https://saintseiya.fandom.com/wiki/Cronus"
It all depends on the Cronus we're talking about. The episode G Cronus is father to Hades and Zeus but the Chronos introduced in Next dimension(A work of the original writter kurumada) which happens to be the God of time as well isn't a father to absolutely anyone as he's Genderless. I think this contradictions is the reason why episode G isn't accepted as Canon mostly but I'm not going down the road of episode G not being canon.
"Well, if it was statet, ok how does his true body look like? Also he resides in Elysium isn´t even a clearly statement to say, that his Avatar is his body. In Elysium he has more power, but i can research because i am a bit outdatet."
I'm not on a PC right now but I can provide links from a Saint seiya wiki to help u understand this more if you've got a problem with believing me. The link below would explain to u better. https://saintseiya.fandom.com/wiki/Hades
His true body resides there in Elysium just like how u exist wherever you're right now. If his body is attacked, he bleeds like everyone else. He can exist independently without it because his soul can exist without his body mentally but guess what erases the body alongside the soul from existence? Yeah that would be Hakai.
"The power to fight against a godlike being. With the 9th sense it is possible, with the God-Clothes it is possible, since they reach the level of a god."
9th sense was only clocked in omega and 9th doesn't make them 4D as well. The Gold saints who fought and defeated the wanked 4D Titans who existed on the same terms as Kronos at some point in time did so with only the 7th sense. Seiya and the rest God saints kicked Hades ass till he was bleeding with only the eight sense that grants access to the underworld without being under Hades rule. That's just it.
"Well, the original manga is a headhache as well, but you´re right. I should reread it."
Yeah it would really be helpful if u did once again.
"In Goku his timeline? I didn´t remember he did, or was that something that was only in the manga? Because i only knew the anime and i am sure, that doesen´t happened."
Alright Here's a YouTube video depicting him appearing in the past. watch from 2.52 for a direct confirmation.
"Well, we still have beings below Cronos who can create and destroy a hugh amount of universes with minimal effort:"
That feats is an outlier considering 3 Gold saints are needed to be universal in terms of DC in the first place. If it isn't an outlier it brings about so many inconsistencies.
"I still don´t get it how it was their true bodies. Was that even statet? All we see and know is, that the gods reinkarnate in other people, but that doesen´t make the people to the god himself. The god is at this point even a 3-D construct, since he uses an avatar, but he has still far more power and capacities then his regular owner. It is more a question for me if the gods beyond herselfs can attack other beings without avatar."
Bro I'm not talking about Hades,thanatos and hypnos when they reincarnated as humans on earth but their real bodies. The link I posted above would explain to u better or u can just glance through the original manga once again like I suggested to understand the series you're defending better. Athena had already cast him out of shun. His true body which resides in Elysium got smacked around and thanatos and hypnos were one shotted from atomic based attacks once again.
"They was attacked by "God cloth" Seiya. That means you have the power to fight against the gods. But what is whitout his God cloth?"
God cloth doesn't make him 4D neither did it give him mysterious 4D powers above time to battle them but he used his usual Ryu sei Ken that operates on the atomic level to one-shot thanatos. And there's also this were the Titans who exist on the same space time continuum terms as cronos got beaten by much younger Gold knights once again.
"Well, i think we talk about one and the same timeline. The timeline has the past, the present and the future. "Another" timeline is that where the Mainstory exist. There exist only one Zeno in every timeline. Goku his Timeline isn´t the Timeline of Trunks. They are seperate with identical terms, or better: They are an alternative reality, which means the system at this point is a 5-D construct, because you have two space-time continuums. But at this point you haven´t someone in Dragonball who exist above both timelines together."
I would repent this.....
Cronos is the one who governs time but the area he covers is only moon level and he's also bounded by a single universe. He rules over a single timeline past,future and present time flow on a universal scale. Precisely like how the future trunks timeline existed with a separate past,future and present than goku's timeline which Zeno erased. So once again, he should have no problem erasing cronos who operates only on the flow of a single timeline scale. Let's not forget Zeno affected another timeline when he erased zamatsu as well from the future he was to Goku's past timeline.
"Also that is a good question, but i am talking about Cronus, the Father of Zeus and Hades. The Titan Cronus."
Titan kronos is the father of Zeus and not Hades. Cronus is God of time and nothing indicated him being a father to anyone. Besides I already addressed how the titan kronos won't be a problem above as well.
"They see his Avatar. Not this real body. I don´t even know if they are have shown before. The God´s in SS reincarnate in the Body of human beings."
Mate they stated they'd to attack Hades at Elysium were his true body resides. It wouldn't make sense if Thanatos and hynos real body aren't there as well.
"But with this power, even the human being became powerfull and can reach the higher senses."
What powers are u referring to?
"The real body of Hades never was ass kicked, since it was Andromeda Shun his body. You can kill him, but it doesen´t change that he can came back."
I really think you should reread the saint seiya manga. I'm not speaking of when Hades reincarnated as Andromeda shun here. I'm speaking of when the bronze saints who later became God saints crossed The super dimensional space into Elysium for the final battle with Hades where his real body resided. Athena planned it all to end the war once and for all because for the past generations,hades has never being defeated because it was always a battle with his reincarnation which he would continue being reincarnated once again but this time I'm speaking off, they took the battle to his real body at Elysium to put an end to the war once and for all. Hades was getting his ass kicked to the point he was bleeding by random attacks, that works on the atomic level. I hope I've enlightened you as to the aspect I'm speaking off now.
"Zamasu exist in the timeline, he doesen´t exist beyond the timeline. Also he only exist in one timeline, since the Zamasu in the Goku-Timeline doesen´t have any influence on Trunks Timeline."
But he did. The zamatsu in trunks timeline after he became omnipresent found his way into Goku's timeline. This was actually directly stated.
"Already weaker beings below chronos exist beyond:"
Those are saint seiya omega scans. And I suppose I don't have to Explain to u that Omega isn't canon. That's like me using dragon ball heroes 4D-5D feats from demigra,toha and so on to scale to the Gods here or use actual feats and statements for the God's from DB heroes to debate here. Ofcourse it won't be taken seriously because they aren't canon. Saint seiya omega as well isn't canon.
"The Avatars at some point yes, but the Gods in Sain Seiya exist beyond the space-time continuum. The GoD in the other hand are only 3-D and bound by the Universe."
The actual God's like the real body of Hades,thanatos and hynos for example was getting attacked and smacked by attacks that operated on an atomic level. The real body of thanatos and hynos got one shotted from those said attacks. The Titans who are Olympian Gods that serve directly under kronos got their ass kicked by much younger Gold saints. Don't come with the, that wasn't their real body logic because it was, the gate that connected their world to earth and sanctuary was opened and they attacked with their real bodies and got invaded as well.
"They are even below the Spacetime-continuum. Zeno can erase the GoD without effort, but how should it work against the Gods from Saint Seiya? Apart from that Thanatos and Hypnos aren´t even on Hades Level, let alone Chronos."
Same way Thanatos and hypnos got their real bodies oneshotted from atomic level attacks from God cloth Seiya and the rest. Sane way Hades himself got his real body hurt from atomic based attacks and was bleeding. Same way the Titans who exist on the same space time continuum terms as cronos got beaten by much younger Gold knights once again. I think d God's would be fine and Zeno would maneuver his erasure on the ss God's much much easier.
"Chronos is the God of Time, and even far weaker beins like Mephistopheles Yoma, are more beyond time and space then Infinite Zamasu."
Zeno erased a timeline and erased a being that transcended into another timeline as well from the past. And which of the cronos/Kronos are u speaking of? The titan kronos is different from the Olympian cronos that happens to be the strongest Olympian God. Cronos is the one who governs time but the area he covers is only moon level and also bounded by a single universe. Zeno should be able to erase him comfortably.
"Still, Zamasu can´t be beaten by many Gold Saints, since many of them doesen´t have the 9th sense. He is more a problem for the Saints and even for Thanatos and Hypnos, as the GoD."
I get where you're coming from mate lol😂😂 but zamatsu doesn't really have feats to suggest a direct victory which is why his threads are regarded as statement.
"Sorry, i am going to sleep. Shit work, haha."
Yeah I also slept off and didn't get to see your reply here till this afternoon lol😂😂😂 so we on the same boat.
@caocao: "And yes, there exist SS-wanker, but i didn´t see that much because the SS Fanbase isn´t that huge like the DB Fanbase. As bigger the fanbase, there are a lot more of wanker."
Nicely said right here mate I couldn't agree more.
"Also average human saints can also see Hades, Thanatos and others. But why? They uses human bodys at all as an Avatar.
Andromeda Shun was the reincarnation of Hades, like Alone in The Lost Canvas."
Still, bronze saints can see them. Even kiki could tell were the real deal thanatos attacks was coming from and intercepted it. Silver saints tanked it. At lost canvas, El cid or so (can't tell the particular Capricorn saint) faced them both even though he was a mere human Gold saint.
"Or Sasha for Athena, etc. You can kill the bodys, you can kill the souls, but you can´t harm something that exist beyond those concepts. Same goes for Hypnos and Thanatos."
Bro the real body of Hades was getting his ass kicked and was bleeding from attacks that were dished out by average human saints. Thanatos and hynos got their real bodies one shotted as well by an attack that operated on an atomic level.
"They are falling in a deep sleep after they lose, but they can´t be killed or erased on this level."
Why won't they? The basically won't be at sleep because their existence wherever it is would be erased. Zeno erased zamatsu along with a timeline. Even the future which he transcended into by having part of his existence, existing there was also erased from the future. This explains existence erasure basically wipes out whatever concept a tier exist at any point in time.
" Now we have chronos who stands above all the olympic gods as a Titan. They are also Gold Saints who reach the same level as the gods, like Leo Regulus, or even Pegasus Seiya"
Reach the level of God's but are still human. They still live by the 3D concept. Bounded by the laws of physics and still aren't in control of their time flow. Yet, they still see and hurt those said God's even though they're still humans. There's nothing stopping any God from seeing and attacking him.