Katakuri said he is reforming his body efficiently.
Exactly what the Admirals are doing yeah.
In this case more than with any logia as he has to....to avoid an attack FS is not required
If it is that simple, why couldn't Enel do it in Skypia? Enel has both requirements to be able to do so and yet he fails to morph his body to avoid Luffy's attacks...clearly regular CoO isn't enough.
Take the scan above that you gave me for example. Sentomaru used a slice and Kizaru dodged that by splitting his body, but nowhere do we see the level of refinement to dodge by an inch's worth like Katakuri did on a regular basis.
What do you mean by level of refinement? Kizaru is altering the shape of his body to avoid an attack from a haki user which requires FS, that's all there is to it. The manner of dodging doesn't matter if characters with similar traits(Enel) couldn't replicate the same feats.
Would it really be far-fetched to consider non-FS haki good enough given all we have seen with all non-FS haki users? I asked myself this and the answer is no.
It would be seeing as Enel is both a basic CoO user and a logia(an experienced user of both abilities) and was getting tagged like crazy by pre-gears/pre-haki Luffy.
Then again FS meta is also not out of the question. And it is what we are using here.
Sure.
Sanji absolutely escaped Katakuri's FS, it's clear by the way Katakuri reacted:
That isn't escaping it lol, as I said Sanji was well situated to react and dodge the attack due to the factors I outlined. If it were a standard 1v1 at WCI Sanji would not be able to "escape" his FS.
In one instance after firing the Jelly bean Katakuri sees his attack will miss, in the other he is clearly surprised because Sanji dodged the second one.
Both your scans are mistranslations. He was never surprised that Sanji dodged his attack he literally anticipates it so why would he be shocked when what he sees literally happened?
Your "FS escape" point ultimately fails as Katakuri knew with FS that Sanji was going to dodge and he was not taken unawares by him dodging, merely affirming it. So if Sanji's actions never even changed the future Katakuri saw, what makes it seem he escaped it?
Don't lowball the Jellybean case here. It was fired by Katakuri's fingers I believe you would hold capable of applying a force above what any gun could muster and with amps as well.
Not lowballing it, even if you assumed he shot the bean at LS, it's still a nonsensical comparison honestly.
Sanji dodging the shots is not a surprise, what is surprising is that Katakuri could not see Sanji dodging that last jellybean.
What? Katakuri only shot one bean? What do you mean by "last bean"?? I encourage you to post the scans showing the multiple beans Katakuri fired at Sanji because I'm very clearly sure it was just one...
I meant Kizaru.
Ofc
Matters not that l Luffy has 2 arms when the beams are coming towards him and all he needs to do is ensure the beams collide with his arms.
Again, this isn't just 2 beams coming from a blaster, it's multiple beams coming at him at close range strategically fired by his opponent who can see the future. More context below
The light beams are not instant, they have a travel time between when they are fired and when they are meant to tag Luffy, Luffy even if capped at relativistic by your standards has that entire window to replicate the feat shown in panel.
???? Like Luffy's arms don't need to travel also? Lol Luffy is stopping like 5 lightbeams coming at him at a relative distance from each other using his 2 arms, again he needs incredible amounts of speeds to be pulling this off(more on this below)
If you can see where the light beams will travel then what Luffy did could be achieved with relativistic speeds.
Except his opponent can also see Luffy blocking one of his beams(much like Katakuri with Sanji) and may chose to change to fire from and add 2 more lightbeams on top of that, relativistic won't cut it at all.
Kizaru can't change the pathing of his beams
You keep acting like this is a major factor.
The volume of attacks, distance(close quaters) and precognitive factors don't make it any easier for Luffy to travel his TWO arms to stop multiple equidistant projectiles from hitting his body. I mean don't you understand? If Kizaru fired 4 beams, 2 from each arm concurrently, Luffy would need to stop the first set of two beams from reaching him and then redirect the "pythons" a longer distance to stop the next ones which are already travelling close to Luffy in a straight line(I.e a shorter distance) to his body. Now imagine this happening with a spam of dozens of lightbeams carefully placed by Kizaru...you can't say you grasp the magnitude of what Luffy is doing if you really think relativistic speeds are enough.
Luffy can change the pathing of his arms, Kizaru is firing in one direction, that direction being Luffy.
Helps my argument.
Changing the path of his arms to stop other beams=longer distance travelled.
Travelling in a straight line=shorter distance travelled.
You are correct, hence why Luffy's feat here can be explained away with relativistic speeds and not MHS speeds.
It simply can't unless Luffy were reacting to like 2 beams of light with Snakeman and that just isn't the case.
FS would allow a regular human to block the speed of a light beam
"a light beam" yes a relativistic character using FS can avoid a singular light beam, how does that apply here again?
Hmm, Maybe Set-up is a poor word to use. What I meant here is that Luffy does not really need to lean on his reaction time because he can see the attacks coming beforehand
So can Kizaru. (more on this below)
Even with FS meta Kizaru is at a disadvantage here in reactivity because Luffy could respond to the changes Kizaru makes mid-pathing whereas Kizaru can only follow the changes Luffy makes from the point he fires his laser beams.
-Multiple lightbeams
-Luffy's phythons are required to travel a longer distance as opposed to the straight path of the beams
-The above point becomes even worse with Kizaru's FS being that if he sees Luffy will react to a beam and Luffy decides to place his arm before the beam makes its trajectory, Kizaru can just change its path slightly requiring Luffy to travel a longer distance on top of accounting for the other lightbeams he is yet to stop.
either way if you cant see how this is not in Luffy's favor then I do not know how to explain things to you beter, give me an L here in your book if you want to.
I just have to King.
Why bring this up?
Because you mentioned Snakeman being able to ramp up its speed(or were you talking about Kizaru again)? Snakeman speedimg up takes time is what I meant.
Snakeman's speed only includes his fists, even if luffy had ramped up 100 of attacks that would never help him dodge Kizaru's kick.
A misunderstanding probably.
It again depends on the person. People can say it's poor writing or poor scaling as well. A retcon is not an outlandish position to take.
It can be outlandish if it can be explained by the parameters of the or a story. Some what like a "cope" because said events aren't playing out by preconcieved nuances.
OK so assuming this arrowhead technique is FTL: Light is not a projectile you can toss at FTL speeds, light is a wave.
Irl physics in fiction, moot point.
Ahh, but this is fantasy light yes? So it could? Except this new technique that Kizaru is using is very clearly not emitting light in front of him, but leaving it behind, that's the whole point of Kizaru's FTL argument.
That's not my FTL argument for Kizaru. He isn't outpacing his own light, he is causing his beam to burst toward Luffy at FTL speeds.
Kizaru's technique is at the same time emitting light that is being left behind and light that outpaces the very technique.
FTL residual light as I said(in conjunction with MY OWN FTL Kizaru argument)
1. If the residual light is concurrent then by definition it cant outpace Kizzaru, why? Because it's concurrent.
It can because it would already be at it's destination before Kizaru himself got there. The only way Kizaru would be able to move past the residual light is if he was fast enough to catch up to the distance it has already travelled and pass by it or he outright statues it. Neither can happen and Kizaru would still be FTL.
2. but then we have the double think, because this argument is also at the same time ignoring the very light that is argued to be left behind.
Elaborate on the second hald if the sentence.
You have to understand that people are arguing for 2 classes of light here: fast and faster, and both come from the same source, and the source can be both at will. and the faster kind somehow also has a third light-form that outpaces the second so others can see it coming. Again I do not know how to explain it better
I'm really not understanding what you mean here, it feels like I've addressed this before and you say that's the best you can explain it so we can just agree to disagree here.
If it's residual light from an FTL attack then no. Kizaru's power is clearly not behaving 1 to 1 with real-world light which is why the FTL topic has been happening, but it's presented as the logia of light. and despite there being some fantastical elements to how elements are used here they are all elements/matter/thing-logias-are-made-of that are grounded in the real world in some matter, which is why Kizaru is being so "constrained" in the eyes of many, including myself.
As long as you're consistent from verse to verse with this take I'll be happy to watch you argue it even if I don't agree.
if it was some fantasy light like Ki blast I can see your question here giving the answer that then you have FTL light, but light that is grounded on what we refer to as light in the real world has other rules, light that as far as most people are concerned is Kziaru's DF for all it's extra features that regular light does not have.
Well what stops Kizaru from being fantasy light to begin with? I mean his power comes from eating a magic fruit which gives him the ability to manipulate light, even though Oda said logias elements behave like their natural counterparts, they still originate "magically" and such should be subject to bending the rules of reality a bit.
Edit: You pointed it out and I am sorry to say I can't respond to every point you make, we will just scatter the point further and further as we go on and we will have to take more and more time to address it all, I do not have that luxury. if you want to keep going you can't just take it as me conceding the topic if you are that vehement about it.
That's fine and no pressure this isn't like a CaV or anything. Even if you don't respond if you ever bring it up our points here in another thread or discord we can always continue from where we stopped.
I am a blank when it comes to FS meta, If you asked ME what has been achieved could be explained away with regular Haki, prime samples of the predictive capabilities of haki being Sandersonia and Marigold toying with Luffy.
Except Katakuri specifically said that the morphing ability is possible if you can see the future with CoO(I.e Adv CoO). So it's your word vs an experienced haki user in the verses and I'm inclined to pick the latter for pretty obvious reasons.
But you seem to be on-board with the idea so we can look past it.
I disagree in some parts, but before that: I think there is an important piece of nuance here and that is how FS is limited.
Sanji with regular haki managed to surprise
The only reason Katakuri couldn't tag him with that projectile was a number of variables:
-The distance between them.
-The use of a projectile.
-The projectile moving in a straight line(I.e predictable path).
-Sanji being a CoO user(a good one at that).
-Sanji being many times faster than a bullet speed travelling Jelly bean.
and in a way escape Katakuri's future sight. Surprising him in the way. How come did Katakuri not have a future sight?
In no way did Sanji "escape" Katakuri's FS, he merely had enough things going well for him in this situation for him to have avoided it; said things I have outlined above.
Well, the answer is quite simple: Future sight only shows you a future in which you as an observer do not take action to change it. Once the observer acts to change the outcome of the foreseen future then a new present takes form from those actions, and what was going to be only becomes what would've been.
Well I already know this? I don't necessarily see how this helps your proceeding arguments even though we collectively now agree that every character brought into discussion is capable of using FS in which case this ability poses no speciality at it's base level(what you're defining) unless one guy is more proficient than the other as I originally said. But let's see what you have to say first...
Kaido and Luffy can make way better use of future sight compared to Katakuri, this is not because of a gap in haki
Kaido and Luffy mainly fight with their bodies
I'm guessing "Katakuri" is a typo because Katakuri also uses his body to fight and I can't imagine that you're trying to say Katakuri's main fighting style is throwing jelly beans which would be a nonsensical comparison.
whereas Kizaru is way more reliant on beams for his basic toolkit. Once a beam has been fired it follows a straight path, like a bullet, whereas where Luffy throws hands (ESPECIALLY EVEN MORE SO in G4 Snakeman) he can alter the path of his fist attacks at will given that these are just his limbs (and then there's G4 that takes this to another level).
The thing is this wasn't just 1 beam, it was multiple beams vs Luffy's two arms. And I'm not sure how Luffy being able to alter his arm path helps him against multiple targets when infact his arms still need to travel to each target to stop them from hitting his body, a feat tbh.
So to summarise your point, you're comparing multiple beams of light moving at LS projected by a top tier with FS at close range to Katakuri blasting one jelly bean from dozens of meters away at a much slower speed to try and hit a proficient CoO user? That's a pretty lolworthy argument.
Kizaru when using haki can only control where the lasers travel are going to be fired at
(Multiple lasers vs Two arms)+(both FS users)=no advantage for either(assuming both have an equal level of Adv CoO)
while Luffy can freely alter his multiple attacks mid-path to better suit the situation.
Two arms travelling to stop multiple targets, I don't see how that makes him reacting any easier infact is should be the opposite.
So no, I would disagree that "two FS users fighting would be the same as two normal people fighting; they simply cancel out each other out"
because what powers they have at hand and how they use that power also come into play.
i would agree if Kizaru shot like 1 beam in the direction of Luffy's arm and he stopped it but that just isn't the case lol.
Luffy has absolutely the Luxury as I stated earlier to just set up his attacks to counter the beams that Kizaru throws out
As I explained, two FS users fighting cancels out. Whatever "set up" he puts in place, Kizaru can alter the path of his beam slightly causing Luffy to need to make his arm travel again to stop the beam from meeting his body. And he's doing this for multiple targets with two arms. It's an absolute chess match for both if anything.
especially with a toolkit that has ramping speeds the more he attacks.
Over time. They didn't exchange for that long before Kizaru darted out to hit him with the accelerated kick.
You doubting it's a retcon falls into the same category as me considering it is. at this point, it falls to personal interpretation and there is not much I can do to change your beliefs here. That being said I will say that you are not speaking crazy here. I can see myself just being wrong here.
Fair enough. But at the same time, calling something a retcon even though it can be easily explained is a lot more farfetched.
XD There is something I want to point out: You say "What says his light can't be FTL?", yet people use the scan in the middle lower section of this scan to argue that Kizaru was speeding past his own light... wait so which one is it?
Neither. Kizaru didn't speed past his light to begin with, he projected the light to FTL with a burst of accumulated energy. In that same manner, the residual light coming from the accumulated photons should logically also burst off him at FTL speed as well. I'm not saying Kizaru's light on its own can reach FTL speeds, I'm saying that with this new ability he showed, if he can push his photons to move him to FTL speeds, why would the residual photons not act the same?
Kizaru is outpacing his own light, yet Kizaru at the same time can't outpace the very same light that he is arguing in the scan above to outpeed to arrive in front of Luffy's face before he is blinded.
I guess you must have missed what I said before about free photons so I'll encourage you to read it again.
Now is that not funny? Schrodinger's Kizaru scaler: Proves Kizaru is FTL because Kizaru outspeeds his own light
He does so with a special technique so correct.
AND his light is also FTL+ because Kizarus fails to outspeed it at the same time.
He didn't fail to outspeed the light if:
-The residual light is concurrent as I explained.
-The residual light blasts off him at FTL speeds during the burst.
Both arguments which perfectly fit the scenario though I suppose the former should fit a skeptics narrative more.
This is some INSOC double-think, I often get called a lowballer, but the blatant double standards do make me chuckle at how much people just do not consider what they are seeing. and arguing for.
Imaginary arguments tbh. I haven't used any double standards you just seem to have misunderstood what I said and ignored some.
Ok. Ok. I won't rag too much into this. there is another possibility: This just slipped past Oda. and Kizaru is indeed going faster than light.
Possibly. But this begs the question, how does this affect other series? If the residual light coming off an attack reaches the opponent before the attack itself, is it really lightspeed?
Again I do not say FTL Kizaru is not a thing, I just have not taken those last steps yet because I require more reassurance.
Got it.
I have already talked about this on Discord, but allow me to be the devil's advocate and push down as many notions as I can about Kizaru doing an FTL attack. Note that my arguing this does not necessarily make Kizaru not FTL since we do not know for sure what happened, but merely my reasoning can be used as reasonings to shoot down some of the responses that have already been given
That's cool I guess though I view it as a waste of time as what is shown is pretty explicit even to non-readers in the thread.
Observation Haki. It has been said before that with Observation Haki great gaps in speed can be overcome, this being a possibility means Luffy merely set up his defenses beforehand, much like how he could dodge the Pacifista beams with haki at the beginning of the post-time skip.
If you haven't heard, there is a meta that the Admirals are capable of using Adv CoO themselves as they are able to warp their bodies around the attacks of haki users similar to what Katakuri did in WCI. I find it to be very credible given that Katakuri says such an ability if only possible with FS/Adv CoO:
In which case, two FS users fighting would be the same as two normal people fighting; they simply cancel out each other out and if one person is showing equal or better reaction in an exchange then the conclusion can be made that they are just more or equally as proficient in Adv CoO than their opponent as we saw in Luffy's exchange with Kaido in Snakeman as well.
This can be considered either flawed scaling or a retcon since the basis for Kizaru performing so oppressively against Luffy with his basic LS moves makes Germa being LS a ridiculous preposition given that by now Snakeman would turbo blitz the twins in G4.
I doubt it's a retcon. I think having lower tier characters be able to achieve LS(specifically Niji), buttresses the point that a higher tier character like Kizaru should be capable of more(as he has now shown) which is the norm of the hierarchy of power in your standard manga verse. Plus, as I explained above Kizaru would be able to contend with Luffy with basic LS by simply having better Adv CoO than Luffy(much like Kaido).
I may be crazy, but Luffy could clearly see the attack coming, he was just blinded by the intense light coming off from Kizaru's attack... Now many would say this is Luffy clearly being FTL in perception, I would say this is Kizaru not going as fast as we'd like to think. (Now this is interesting.. Luffy had to cover his eyes from light? I do ask myself: How can someone who is FTL not outspeed the very light they are faster than? 🤔)
If he can speed up his photons to FTL, what says the residual light coming off him can't be FTL too by virtue of blasting off his body as he explodes towards Luffy? Besides Kizaru is always releasing residual light whenever he uses his ability even while stationery or at a distance so obviously those would travel ahead of him in a concurrent manner given he will always continously emit "free" photons while using his powers.
there are also alternate translations:
meaning Kizaru is just repeating his saying from saobody archipelago.
Wrong translation. Raws themselves say "Acceleration...IS POWER!!!"
Then again, the scan could very well still be Kizaru speeding up past the point of Light Speed
It's very blatant even without the statement that he's speeding up.
and though many who hate on One Piece would bar the feat at LS that does not mean that all who still hold the feat as possibly LS hate on One Piece.
The only reason someone wouldn't see the feat for what it was or even give it a chance is bias imo because as we see in the thread, even non-readers can easily pick up what's going on much less people who are somewhat grounded on the series.
I personally for example hold this as potentially FTL
That's perfectly fine, even if you're skeptical this should be the worst case scenario for any who are using logic to observe what happened.
I would not call it out as faster than LS just yet without further clarification which puts me in the LS camp, then again my stance on OP can be considered a lowball by the standards of many so hey just take my points with a big grain of salt.
W for good faith.
To the people saying Kizaru only increased his speed to LS, I guess Kizaru is the same speed as when he doesn't require his acceleration theatrics to attack AT LS(Kizaru's own admission)? I mean let's apply simple logic here and drop the OP bias
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