DraciosV

"Surface: Cool as a cucumber. Inside: Squirrel in traffic."

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DraciosV

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No. I would say it's worse than here.

Sure, it does have some merits. It can allow you to quickly and easily gather numerous feats that a character has accomplished to give perhaps some relative degree of scale.

However, the wiki tends to have no room for logic or common sense. Like saying Dante is somehow multiversal and that the Witcher can survive having a building straight dropped onto their heads. Most people on the site plug in stats that would never work in a story.

I would say use it to discover feats, but actually look at the sources and then interpret for yourself what they character is actually capable of and where they stand.

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DraciosV

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No. His webswinging speed is probably somewhere in the range of 160 miles per hour. It makes zero sense for spider-man to run at or above the speed of sound when he generally isn't really presented as having speedster powers. Not only this, but speeds in this range are well able to dodge a bullet. Thus it doesn't break his lore or anything. And he is still perfectly at home getting blitzed by speed demon.

Spider-Man likely just accelerates really quickly. Accelerating quickly/instantly at a few hundred miles per hour would allow him to dodge gunfire >after< it is fired. Combine this with his agility and he would be very difficult to touch. On top of his spider sense. This would also well explain how some folk are able to see him coming from a distance.

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DraciosV

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I think Joker, Dark Knight and Captain America Civil War are the only ones that can even try to contend.

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DraciosV

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The opening of blade sticks with me clearly to this day. Maybe one of the strongest marvel openings I've ever seen.

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DraciosV

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@risingbean said:

2. Manga is one of those competitive sources of entertainment. I was speaking of western comics in my post.

3. It's not so much having a lot of issues. It's having so many titles, guest appearances and the like.

As an example. I recently decided to read every Wolverine appearence in both the X-Men and his own title. I've just gotten past Inferno. There are more than a few times I've seen a panel noting some past story and realized I've missed stuff that previous issues didn't direct me to because reading the X titles of the 80's is an interconnected snarled mess with all the titles and annuals and whatnot.

4. Personally I didn't much like Watchmen. If that was the sort of story that was supposed to keep me buying Marvel or DC month after month, they'd be broke. Red Son is interesting, but it's didn't throw readers under the bus as far as I remember.

Captain America punching Nazi's. This is where it gets interesting. I think most would agree Nazi's are bad, and that Marvel doesn't want those Nazi' dollars. Who cares if Hitler sympathizers don't read (and pay for) a title? However modern Marvel is doing stuff like attacking people who voted for Trump. I think there is a vast difference in a Trump voter and a Nazi. Marvel is losing out by alienating half of their potential readers.

You also have some who want to deconstruct decades of story and character to insert minorities or women or alter existing characters. Killing off Wolverine to make female Wolverine, or killing off (Ultimate) Spider-Man to make minority Spider-Man is just going to alienate readers who were invested in that original character. If all of our favorite heroes and heroines are expendable, if anybody can just toss on a costume and be Wolverine, or Spider-Man (or whoever) what makes these heroes special?

In the case of Ultimate Spider-Man, I'd read 140 some odd issues showing Peter Parker come from being a level 0 screwup to being a legit hero. So what did Bendis do? Killed off Pete and started from scratch with a new "Spider-Man." I wasn't interested in re-reading that. I dropped the title.

With all that, Marvel's big news lately is the New (Social Justice) Warriors. Let's make Snowflake and Safe Space and pander. Marvel might be better served to just making good stories.

This is all from a guy who read comics throughout the majority of his life and wouldn't save either Marvel or DC if it cost me a nickel to do so at this point. Between the confusing continuity, terrible retcons, overpriced product, and bad decisions made by creators and editors, I don't care about either company at this point.

I will start by saying that so far your answer is probably looking the best.

2. Ah. I see what you mean then. Then I agree. Yeah.

3. True. To be honest I just kinda wait for character collections to come out. That's what I did with X-23 ironically. And it still leaves out a lot of key events she's featured in. So it becomes really hard for me to know things like "Oh. What's her relationship with this julian kid? It seems like they're close." Go read a wiki to find out that low and behold they've both had huge adventures.

4. So if I'm to sum it up, it's that modern identity politics is.

  • Too morally grey for superheroes to tackle and still be considered "good."
  • Way divisive of a topic among the wide audiences superheroes for people to take one singular answer without screwing over half your audience.
  • Identity politics is shoved in without regard for plot and narrative. A theme and message that must be reached regardless of how much sense it actually makes or how it treats the characters.

And then there is just plain bad writing that ALREADY existed in marvel and DC.

  • Retcons.
  • Continuity issues
  • Reboots.
  • Convoluted Canon

These both cumulatively.

So basically, if I were condense. You could pretty much just make all of it this.

Expensive.

Bad Writing.

Of course, there will be still a demand for such kind of public, all human males generate different amount of testosterone and under different circumstances more intensely than others, some have to experience danger, violence, in order to generate a high amount of testosterone, others generate high amounts in a daily routine independently from what happens, we might be humans but we're still an animal species, we have our instincts, today we think that a woman with big boobs, wide hip, etc... are attractive, but millions of years before not the Homosapien but the Homo Erectus, it all symbolized or were good signs of good maternity, for instance, the bigger boobs, the bigger amount of milk for the upcoming generation are ensured, the wider are women's hip, the more secure or protected is the baby inside the woman, etc... days when our instincts ruled over our reason due to the lack of knowledge, today we made up abstract concepts like, women with those traits are aesthetically attractive, but it are blunt excuses in order to subconsciously pretend that we are rational beings, a disguise in order to hide our inevitable animalistic tendency.

Only because you're mentioning some of those successes, with manly traits, Jojo as an exception which is not manly at all, it does not change the fact that we're talking about a minority in an ocean of pussified males that started to drastically increase after the 2000's like a virus, Jojo is the perfect example of how distorted is the term masculine nowadays, only because we're talking about masculine characters that are well physically shaped, that pretend to act with serenity, but they look actually like queer or trans with tons of makeup and the clothing, please.

Araki is just an author who is detached from reality, a rebel in nature that is tired or frustrated that how can it be possible that a woman's body is deemed as more beautiful than a man's body.

The thing is that once more again, men and women are not equal, the attraction of men to women has a biological foundation behind, while the attraction of women to men, has a more symbolic purpose, such as well-formed musculature, is a symbol of strength and strength speaks for protection against other animals, other abusive males, a good soldier, a good constructor.

What women see in men, is a more materialistic boundary to the exterior and what men see in women is a more biologically boundary when it comes to a family, mental and physical nursing whether to adults or children.

Today, we are ashamed to accept our animalistic truths, you ask woman why she thinks that this guy looks attractive, she would answer " Yeah, his muscles make him look sexy"; "why", and what comes as next is a mental block, rationality confronting the instincts in a battle to the death, those resulting in "It's just my taste"

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The booming of franchises such as Doom 2016 & Doom Eternal, Baki, God of War, etc... it's just the reflection of current men in an existential crisis, and it's just simply so, because "it's too good to be true", a species that experienced violence for the most part of its existence, a species that had to invest incredible amounts of efforts to significantly achieve something, it's just simply in the genes, it's a thought or a spine in or subconscious, today we don't have to move our butts, we just order things by amazon, ebay, we watch movies via Netflix, we don't go to the cinema or to the stores anymore, etc... so, those booming masculine series are a simulation that calms but not totally stops that feeling of weirdness, like "what's wrong here? it's too peaceful and too good to be true".

Do you remember the movie Wall-E? my theory is that humanity can't end like that, because we would simply turn insane and start killing each other for no reason, because it's something that is extremely not compatible with our nature.

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Well, it's not only because of the art, but Western comics also have a very complex way to tell a story, the Doomsday Clock is an example, it's way above the average nivau, Japanese comics have a more superficial way to tell a story if we compare all of them with comics that are at the level of the Doomsday Clock DC series, with this, I'm not saying that all Western comics are complex, there are Japanese series that are more complex than so many Western comics, but if we take both peaks, Marvel or DC will always take the crown over eastern comics, Japanese comics to be more exact.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. A lot a lot. But I'll try to address this pretty political thing in a way that will bring it back to writing.

Humans are founded on doing unnatural things. As you yourself have shown, instinct is a thing that can be trained. Like for instance, shooting guns. Or not blinking when someone punches you even though you are instinctively told to do it. Using the "it' natural" fallacy to justify one's actions and urges is an appeal to nature logical fallacy. Our instincts exist but we should keep in mind as to why it exists. For example, people are compelled to surgary things. Why? Because we were a hunter gatherer society.

Something that is extremely unnatural is shooting a gun. Something that you know, isn't really natural. Having the cognitive ability to recognize when something unnatural is actually able to be good for us. Now jobs are becoming increasingly less physical. Society is becoming increasingly less physical. The outlets people have for a lot of manual labor and physically laborious jobs are decreasing more and more each day.

For background, I'm was once in the navy for one singular tour. And what made mad was people showing up to work drunk on a work day and making someone else have to do their job for them. Because they weren't necessarily disciplined enough to stop.

Traits that are masculine or even adulting aren't really things that have to do with being gay. things like

  • Strength (Mental and Physical)
  • Courage
  • Independence
  • Leadership
  • Assertiveness

Personally, I would also add honesty to this list too.

Now onto Jojo!

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I'll whisper something to you. Spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen the show: The two on top get married. The one below is a major a character who is always depicted as sexy.

Jojo has all of these traits. Many of these characters have these traits. Particularly the male character who has strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness. All at once. The series has multiple protagonists and each one demonstrates all these characteristics. The show itself is also rather violent and unafraid of this violence and pain. Though it doesn't saturate the series in it. The series also doesn't shy away from the fact that women are sexy at all.

Literally the first scene of Jojo is him fighting a bunch of dudes to defend a woman, knowing he'll get beat up in the process and then right after when asked why he does, he says it's because it's the gentlemanly thing to do. As the characters are written differently, as human beings are, not every character in the show is manly. "Just like not all women or equal, not all men are equal. But this equality does not equate to greater or lesser. It means different." Not all men are born equal or with the same amount of testosterone.

As someone who has worked in the military and with people who are homosexual, I will say that being homosexual does make me inclined to like or hate you. I will not someone special treatment in favor of someone who is gay. Nor against them. Results are what matter.

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The market exists. So why aren't they buying comics? Why are comics as a whole continuing to decline in spite of that market increase?

Why are many manly mangas successful? And mainstream western comics aren't?

If you have the to play Doom and channel your urges into something else that's fine. But you still aren't really explaining why One Piece is on the fast track to destroying Batman. Or why Batman doesn't sell enough to compete with One Piece and is soon to surpass it.

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Complexity=/=Deep and Profound. A good analogy is being mile wide. Having a lot of cool ideas. And inch deep. Not going very far with these concepts. Not exploring them in any real amount of depth.

It just means there are a lot of things happening at once. A lot of different storylines being juggled. It doesn't *inherently* make it better. Such things can easily just end up being a massive cluster****.

But, why would you compare things like Doomsday Clock, which is Marvel's best and compare them to the "average" anime and manga. Anime and manga separate. Why wouldn't you compare it to something like Ghost in the Shell. A show with enough complexity to rival a Tom Clancy Novel.

More over, why don't you name some more recent things that can actually compete with stuff. Cause all I see is stuff like this with the occasional good series like immortal hulk.

A lot of people would argue that most comics now-a-days are just painfully average at best. Some people in this very thread have argued that point. That it's just that most comics are okay or worse at best with some exceptions. Doomsday Clock and the X-Men relaunch are some exceptions.

But these appear to be few and far in between.

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DraciosV

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I'm biased towards horror but I liked Blade II way more.

I did like Aquaman however. A step up from justice league and underrated but it was just alright in the grande scheme of things.

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@captain_inverse: I definitely think they are valuable, albeit rare. I will admit, I've only been to a comic shop once because there havent been that many near me in the places that I've lived. Barnes and Noble on the other hand has had a comic section wherever I've gone to. It's usually near wherever the manga stuff is at. Selection varies but they seem determined to have more stuff along the lines of old but really relatively proven stuff. From marvel, DC and indies, and of more types than just superhero stuff.

When I went to a comics shop they had the latest and greatest though. Fresh off the press stuff a general bookstore like barnes and noble takes forever to get. This is mostly anecdotal evidence but it seems like Bookstores might at least choose what they get based on sales. While Marvel and DC are gonna get hit hard by this, I feel like a lot of smaller indie companies are gonna get hit hard too.

In the grand scheme of things, comics are a luxury and I don't see things going well for comic shops at all. Especially when they are gonna be unable to get this new wave of stuff off the shelves. Stuff that honestly just seems okay at best or just plain bad at worse.

And comics right now, I think are looking more to the bad side. At least with what is heavily advertised. And other decent stuff is okay but seems to be relatively obscure.

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DraciosV

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Imagine buying something that's not food in 2020 lol

apparently toilet paper > comics these days

Except for the fact that nearly all these statistics I pull up pre-date the COVID-19 Virus

The graphics shown are from Sept. 2019 and the year of 2018 respectively. Even the Black Panther I thing I mentioned goes back two years ago.

Sorry friends. But this has been a long time comin'.

@jb681131 said:

@draciosv: Well one other thing to note, is that the price of comics is getting hier and hier, and that the price of mangas are very low (due to their cheap paper and lack of color).

One other thing to note: all successfull mangas have their own animated shows. All successfull comics don't have their animated show.

Another thing to note. Mangas came very late to the US. American's have years and years of mangas to catch up.

Also, mangas (due to their cheapness) have a hight production rate. Constantly new issues and stories.

And one last point, it is also due to our modern society. Now people want everything to go fast,be simpe and to be mindblowing. Well mangas have not so evolved stories. Lots of epic action. Boom, their you go to please and feed the new brainless generations.

Having Animated Series doesn't quite make sense. We have had a number of series to give everything exposure. A number of many popular series I might add. On top of this you have Box office movie competing for one of the most all time viewed movies with smashing box Office Success of over 2.04 Billion Dollars. You literally can't go outside your house without seeing infinity war. I went and saw it day two and every. Single. Theater. Had it.

This also seems to imply that these movies are particularly deep and profound or something. With the exception of something like Civil War, it's usually pretty black and white. Compare and contrast this with stuff like Berserk and Death Note and I'd say popular mangas can be just as complex if not more so. And vice versa.

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It was nuts. And yet you seem to be debating that somehow comics don't get enough exposure.

This is also to say nothing of the rather popular animated series we have now. We have had numerous justice league and DC animated movies closer to the comics and DC still lags behind marvel. Harley Quinn especially is a hit.

So I'll need to see some evidence that animated series actually will help. Because I feel like that would have at least pulled DC out of the water by now?

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As for the price of comics. That definitely seems to be a very consistent problem. So I'll agree with you there.

I will be straight direct here, besides Japanese comics have more diversity in terms of genres and subgenres, such as romance, comedy, action, etc... It's a production that knew how to hit this trending era, we see effeminated art, like big-eyed boys looking girly, the typical 2000-2005+ generation, guys that take more time in front of the mirror than girls, totally disgusting if you ask me, as an exception Baki, DBZ, OPM and almost One Piece, it's an art that reflects how the current generation is, a spoiled generation of males, lack of character, comfort dependence, less effort for their hobbies, less exercise, less masculine and why less masculine, it's because we are enjoying times of peace, there are no wars, etc..., and to be clear, I'm not demonizing this generation, in fact we can't blame them because they were born under those circumstances and the Manga production knew how to hit its public, but it's all part of a natural process.

Furthermore, the Japanese have a functional animation platform and production. Western comics are more detailed, it is meant to collect them as a piece of art, on the other hand, the manga is cheaply printed in white and black like a newspaper ready to clean your ass in an emergency situation, in Western comics you will always invest more time appreciating all the details and as I said, we have a spoiled generation that does not even have the patience to admire all those details, because it's a generation that conforms itself with garbage, a generation that feels fine every second and doesn't feel like the necessity to admire truth dedication, as long it's showed clearly and uncomplicated, everything is fine.

PS:

But believe me, if the next day this generation would witness death and desolation in their countries like never before, they will think twice before not appreciating what is truly art and dedication.

This kind of falls apart in multiple places.

There are numerous mediums modern media that have manly. Characters. God of War and Doom are massively successful smash hits on the video game front for the West. For the East? I would also add to that list Hajime No Ippo, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and Fist of the North Star (which got popular in America around the 2000s) You also have got popular Mangas like Berserk. Proving that there is still a crowd of people who like their "Alpha" Protagonists vice the stereotypical protagonists. Except that even anime has it's only "Alpha" protagonists like the one you just mentioned.

But lets go over to comics.

Do you really think that when you have stuff like this be this popular that people aren't interested in dominant characters?

$404K (May 2018. This would have placed it #6 highest selling comic of the month if it officially included)
$404K (May 2018. This would have placed it #6 highest selling comic of the month if it officially included)
$2,098,166 (September 2019. #1 of the month.)
$2,098,166 (September 2019. #1 of the month.)

Here's another thing that bothers me. It's that you make a lot of points about how comics have great art! They look really good!

....But are you saying that modern comics rely entirely on their great art? Is that all they have to offer? I feel like I can play God of War and pleasing visuals and a riveting story as well .I like good art too but I won't buy something just for art. Not when I can get something that has good art and more. I'm usually paying for a graphic novel. Not just something that looks good but that tells a good story.

I would argue that there is room for pretty-boy types, anime types, women and all the stuff in between to exist on screen at once. With no one in particular as top dog. I think it's gonna take a lot more than just testosterone and good art.

Granted. I got no problem with either of these. But something is else seems necessary for a comic to be good.

My opinion?

1. Cost. 22 pages are going for what? 4 or 5 dollars a pop. It's not cost effective.

2. Other sources of entertainment. (TV, movies, internet, video games, etc) The competition in combination with a creative downward spiral hurts comics.

3. Continuity. Try keeping up with Batman, or the X-Men and not getting lost in the sheer volume of stories. Might help if companies had read lists for those trying to get in and read in chronological order.

4. Injection of identity politics. When you want to escape real world bullshit and comics is full of more of that bullshit, it's not hard to move on.

1. Agree heavily.

2. Hard disagree.As stated before, Manga continues to grow in spite of this.

3. Partial agree. As stated before, many mangas and the like go on for a long time. But many of them also do lack the immense scope of Marvel/DC's shared universe.

4. Politics is where things get interesting....

Politics. A common argument seems to be that politics has no place in comics.

You have watchmen, which features a large degree of politics concerning conspiracy theories and the red scare. It throws Doctor Manhattan into the midst of the vietnam war just to see what would happen. Has some commentary on Nixon. Mentions of the atomic bomb. A lot of things which shape the world and the perspective of the characters in question.

And you have superman ,the red son. Which has the entire premise of "what if superman was born under communism?"

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So if you do wanna make this argument, you have to answer the question of "why now? Why can't we include politics in stories now? Captain America has been punching Nazis since the 40s!!"

I think the answer is easier than necessarily blaming politics. And that if anyone means to campaign against many modern comics, they'll need to approach it a bit differently.

@draciosv: the publisher cranking out comics and shoving things like the "new" warriors at shops, which people aren't buying. And those shops cant get rid of bad comics even on a discount rack.

Places are literally expected to sell this trash, and yet people like Marvel/Diamond cant read the writing on the wall. But instead cry and complain when people reject them.

ALL classic brick/mortar comic shops in general will become extinct IMO, this isn't going to just happen to superhero comics.

Oh I agree. This is going to devastate comic-book shops without a doubt

And there couldn't be a worse time to do this. But this is a nail in the coffin.

All I have to say is One Piece is a scary beast. I think it will have to surpass Superman at this rate, which is mind blowing considering how long Superman has been around as a cultural icon.

Oh yeah. Most definitely.

It's already beaten out Spider-Man and X-Men in their entirety.

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DraciosV

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@vishop_ said:

@draciosv:

Do movies take away from comics?

I would like to reply to this one. Movies are a wider audience of media all over the world and I mean it's even bigger than comics therefore to a certain extent yes movies do take away from comics.

In terms of creativity, it's kinda shallow in my opinion and it actually affects comics especially DC and Marvel nowadays. But there are exceptions.

With that I agree. Movies have to not only appeal to mass audiences, but also have to compress a lot of story into a tiny frame of space, covering the most key points. Graphic novels are just that, novels. And have a whole lot more space to work with.

@draciosv: Here is a list of Shonen jump sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekly_Sh%C5%8Dnen_Jump at the bottom. From 84-95 there was a huge spike. That's Dragon Ball I think doing that. after that, you look where those numbers went

That' might be useful.

Though I am talking about mostly I'm talking the average price of individual mangas/collections versus the price of individual comics/collections.