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DocFatalis

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#1  Edited By DocFatalis

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

Is this a joke? LOL! So you think there are just random, never before explained, fluctuations with respect to Superman's ability to useHIS OWN POWERS? LOL! Let me guess, you think after Superman takes off his outfit and becomes Clark Kent that he just randomly forgets how to use his own power? Let me guess, you think Kobe Bryant forgets how to play basketball when the final buzzer sounds in the 4th quarter? LOL! Listen to what you're saying man. One of Superman's abilities is superhuman performance. In order for what you're saying to be true, Superman would have to have superhuman performance but be incapable of properly using his own powers when he needed them. That's a flat out contradiction with how the character is supposed to work. There's nothing in any Superman comic book ever published which says that Superman has to adjust to using his powers as a fight goes on.

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

Now your just playing semantics and word games by slowly changing what you say over time. On page 6 you said this:

There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Then on page 6 you said this:

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting.

Then on page 7 you said this:

If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent.

So, you've said no less than three things, some of which directly contradict each other. First you said Superman can't immediately use his power to their fullest extent and, therefore, needs to get into "battle rhythm," then you said that Superman possesses these powers "all the time" but using them requires deliberate effort, then you say he needs to adjust as the fight goes on. So, which one is it? Is it battle rhythm, is it deliberate effort to use powers he naturally possesses, or is it adjusting to his opponents?

Number 1 is flat out nonsensical given the fact that Superman is a superhero who engages in fights all the time. Why would he need to get into "battle rhythm"? It's like saying that Kobe Bryant needs to get into rhythm in order to be a great basketball player even though his whole life revolves around playing basketball. Kobe Bryant has practiced so much over such a long period of time that his rhythm comes to him naturally. Superman is no different. It simply makes no sense to say that someone possesses a skill naturally but can't deploy it when they need it, even though they've used that skill on countless occasions. Are you really saying that Superman possesses powers naturally but can never deploy them to their fullest extent if he doesn't use them continuously? What evidence do you have for this?

Moreover, it's flat out contradicted by the evidence. There are innumerable instances where Clark Kent changes into Superman and can instantaneously access all his powers and use them with out any prep time whatsoever.

Number 2 is also nonsensical because you've already conceded that Superman possesses his powers naturally. However, if Superman possesses his super powers naturally and one of his superpowers is superhuman performance, then why would he need deliberate effort to use them? Either Superman really doesn't have superhuman performance, which would allow him to manipulate and use his powers with preternatural skill on a consistent basis, or he's forgetting to use his powers or they fluctuate uncontrollably. There's no evidence for the last 2 and the first one is a built in character contradiction. How could a character possess superhuman performance but consistently fail to use his own powers properly when he needs them? Why would he even need deliberate effort to use his powers properly if he'd already mastered using them through repeatedly deploying them in dire circumstances? How could a character be blocked from fully accessing powers they naturally possess? This would mean that Superman has a never before mentioned or explained character limitation.

Number 3 doesn't make sense either. Surely if Superman had problems adjusting to his powers and/or opponents he would sometimes kill his opponents accidentally, right? But instead Superman frequently gets beat up first. It would make more sense if you said Superman always starts his fights with what he believes to be the minimal force necessary to win and then gradually increases his strength to reach a level that allows him to defeat his opponents. At least this way you could plausibly explain why he frequently loses before he wins.

Moreover, you're absolutely talking in circles and contradicting yourself. For example, if someone is slower than Superman, why would Superman need to adjust to them? The only explanation without assuming a plot device is being used is to assume that Superman somehow forgets how to use his powers. If Superman possesses super speed naturally, then why would he start his fights slower than people he's naturally faster than? This doesn't make sense.

I really don't see what you find contradictory in my three declarations, they are entirely complementary. What is it you have difficulties to understand?

I'll summarize for you and maybe this will incite you to give us a more concise post too next time: Superman almost always get hit by the villains in the beginning which shows he has to determine the proper level of power/speed to use in order to face his opponent and sometimes have to exert himself to reach it the level in question (Imperiex, Doomsday, Darkseid etc...) the reason why he does this is of absolutely no importance, the important thing is that he's been doing it consistently for more than 50 years, which gives Dante more than a good chance to start by cutting him in half. Period.

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#2  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

1) I understand perfectly, but I don't agree with you. The option you are presenting does not correspond to what I have said. If you re-read my previous post you will see that: I am not talking about involuntary fluctuations at all.

It's fine for you to disagree but you're not giving me anything to work with. Opinions can be baseless and nonsensical. The idea that what happens to Superman's speed and reaction time in combat is INVOLUNTARY, makes even less sense.

@DocFatalis said:

2) No, it has to do with your general behaviour and the tone you use with those who disagree with you, as I have already stated it. I think this is not the correct tone for a moderator so I just tell you, otherwise that would be condoning, which I try not to do in general.

Either PM this part to me or drop it.

1) I have precisely stated that there was NO involuntary fluctuation.

2) Why would I PM you that: there is nothing secret and when you do your remarks and adopt a condescending tone, you do it in public, so why on Earth would I tell you what I think about it in private. The rules work for everyone I believe and I am respecting them.

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#3  Edited By DocFatalis

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

Is this a joke? LOL! So you think there are just random, never before explained, fluctuations with respect to Superman's ability to useHIS OWN POWERS? LOL! Let me guess, you think after Superman takes off his outfit and becomes Clark Kent that he just randomly forgets how to use his own power? Let me guess, you think Kobe Bryant forgets how to play basketball when the final buzzer sounds in the 4th quarter? LOL! Listen to what you're saying man. One of Superman's abilities is superhuman performance. In order for what you're saying to be true, Superman would have to have superhuman performance but be incapable of properly using his own powers when he needed them. That's a flat out contradiction with how the character is supposed to work. There's nothing in any Superman comic book ever published which says that Superman has to adjust to using his powers as a fight goes on.

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

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DocFatalis

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#4  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

1) Unless of course your perception of the way the character usually employs his powers would be erroneous.

2) Only according to you and once again you have absolutely no solid proof of that, only your opinion, but you get all sanctimonious and announces it like it would be an indisputable truth. That is precisely one of the aspects of being condescending.

1.That's seems to be what you're not understanding. Is that the way Superman employs his powers or is that being disregarded for the plot? What sounds more logical to you, the idea that a characters powers randomly doesn't work for no stated reason or the fact that a writer would need to disregard speed in order for slower characters to make the fight worth reading? Why would such a huge detail about his speed never be stated? That makes sense to you? 2.I'm not the only one who thinks that your point doesn't make any sense. It's not condescending to compare our arguments. But again I'm not going to argue with you about whether that was my aim or not. It has nothing to do with the topic.

1) I understand perfectly, but I don't agree with you. The option you are presenting does not correspond to what I have said. If you re-read my previous post you will see that: I am not talking about involuntary fluctuations at all.

2) No, it has to do with your general behaviour and the tone you use with those who disagree with you, as I have already stated it. I think this is not the correct tone for a moderator so I just tell you, otherwise that would be condoning, which I try not to do in general.

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#5  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting.

That not only makes no sense it's not backed up by anything that was ever stated.

@DocFatalis said:

You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character.

I can call something illogical when it's a direct contradiction to the characters powers and there's no explanation for it. If Superman is fighting another character unless he's holding back there's no explanation as to why he wouldn't be able to dodge far slower characters EVERY TIME. I think how long this has been happening PROVES my point more so than it discredits it.

@DocFatalis said:

You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

Well obviously I don't believe that but I'm not going to argue with you about it. If you really feel that way you can stop responding to me if you want. I'm not saying your argument is illogical for the sake of being condescending, I'm saying that because what you're saying doesn't make any sense.

1) Unless of course your perception of the way the character usually employs his powers would be erroneous.

2) Only according to you and once again you have absolutely no solid proof of that, only your opinion, but you get all sanctimonious and announces it like it would be an indisputable truth. That is precisely one of the aspects of being condescending.

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#6  Edited By DocFatalis

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

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#7  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

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#8  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

That is the way you CHOOSE to see things. There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Even the opposite of your logic can be backed up i.e. that the sudden speed or power surge is the thing constituting the plot device.

That's why I'l stick to what the writers and artists show us: Superman can be and is regularly hit by people broadly slower than he is and broadly slower than Dante is. Therefore he can be cut in half by the Yamato sword, a powerful magic tool that cuts through everything.

That's not the way I choose to see things, that's the way they are. My point is logical..yours is not. If DC already has shown that Superman is damn near flash level whether he's running or flying as far as speed and that he can react to characters and objects that are faster than those you named because of the powers that have been set for him, than how can you sit here and act as if characters who are far slower can get hits off on him? There's no explanation for it other than a plot device. You can't argue that Superman moving at high speeds or having superhuman reaction time is a plot device..THOSE ARE HIS POWERS. There is no reason they SHOULDN'T work 100% of the time, and if there was you don't think that after over 50 years of Superman books, at least 1 writer would have put something in comics to let you know that what you were saying is true? There is nothing in Superman's history that suggests he can't move as fast as he wants to move at any given time or that he has trouble reacting to characters that are CLEARLY slower than him for any reason other than a plot device.

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

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#9  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

So according to you, constants don't matter, it's what we think of the character that matters? Well, I will never agree with you on that. It would be like saying that any situation in which the hero faces a difficulty is just a plot device, something to allow the story to be.

No. Consistency only matters when it's not contradicted. Superman is faster than every character you just named by miles and that's a fact, you can't deny it so the only way they would be capable of hitting him is by way of plot device. The writers can't make EVERY character he fights as fast as him, but the writer will allow those characters to hit Superman, otherwise he'd be untouchable to many of his enemies. It's the same thing with Spider-Man. His speed is superhuman, they've shown on tons of occasions that he has speed and reaction time that far exceeds that of even a peak human character..but Peak humans and regular humans hit him all the time. They HAVE TO, otherwise what would be the purpose of the comic? It's not like saying ANY time a hero faces difficulty it's a plot device because some characters actually have villains that have advantages over them or some type of defense for their abilities.

That is the way you CHOOSE to see things. There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Even the opposite of your logic can be backed up i.e. that the sudden speed or power surge is the thing constituting the plot device.

That's why I'l stick to what the writers and artists show us: Superman can be and is regularly hit by people broadly slower than he is and broadly slower than Dante is. Therefore he can be cut in half by the Yamato sword, a powerful magic tool that cuts through everything.

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#10  Edited By DocFatalis

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

I don't understand what you mean? Why would villains like Metallo or Luthor in armor or Darkseid or Atlas hitting Superman would be a plot device? It happens all the time, and even if they don't get the upper hand after that, they do manage to hit him. Dante has a sword that cuts through everything effortlessly, so it seems reasonable to me to imagine that if he manages to hit Superman with it the way those villains have, we'll just get two half Supermen.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't consider what happens in the stories but only the statistics or something?

Because those characters are his villains. If they DIDN'T hit him, who would read it? He's proven to be far faster than everyone you just named and have the reaction time to back it. Just because something happens all the time doesn't make it any less of a plot device.

So according to you, constants don't matter, it's what we think of the character that matters? Well, I will never agree with you on that. It would be like saying that any situation in which the hero faces a difficulty is just a plot device, something to allow the story to be.