Be warned! You might not entirely agree with everything you are about to read. Keep in mind this is just my opinion. Good? Ok.
Yes, I just said it.....
I just asked what would happen if the world's arguably most popular superhero became the one thing he vowed to eradicate.. I asked how it would be if they made a Justice League storyline where Batman became the villain for the remainder of the arc and came up with ploys against the league.
Now before you point out how stupid this idea is, just take a moment to consider:
1. Batman has been around for a very, very long time.
2. Batman's popularity isn't really based on his urge to do good no matter what (that's more like Superman's thing). It's more based on his dark, brooding, vengeance-agent persona. These qualities are surprisingly villain-like aren't they?
3. Batman is always consistently written as a good character. To my knowledge he never came into the verge of doing evil deeds. It is surprising how almost all other characters went through their share of doing evil while he hasn't. Whether it be mind-control, getting toxicated or simply turning evil. We have seen everyone else in the Justice League go rogue haven't we? Endgame comes to mind. We have even seen Superman, who is almost as popular as Batman but even more of the "good doing guy" type, go rogue at times. Canon or non canon, there have been instances such as Hush, Injustice and other arcs where he went rogue. So what is it with Batman? How come he isn't vulnerable to any of these occurrences?
Now, I am not saying turn him into an evil character for good, that would be a bad idea. But there could be, say an arc where Batman simply looses his shit and goes after the JLA. He could loosen his morals a bit maybe. It would actually be an interesting JLA storyline. Canon or non canon. For once, instead of villainising the entire Justice League (looking at you Endgame), they can turn Batman into the villain and create a story of the Justice League stopping him. This time, maybe Batman would lose to the Justice League.
Maybe a story similar to the Judas Contract, with Batman being Deathstroke and the league being the titans in this case. He could take time preparing for each member, coming with intricate plots and out of nowhere, appearing as a threat. Forcing the league to deal with contraptions and ploys which target their weaknesses. The league, while retaining their morals have to stop him now.
If you think about it, it would be a good idea. Kind of like Injustice but with Batman becoming the villain.
The arc can end with the league incapacitating Batman.
You may not trust this kind of a story, but if you didn't have any problems with how Cyclops was portrayed in AvX, then you should see the light in this.
By saying make Batman a villain, I'm not necessarily referring him to being evil for the sake of evil. I'm more thinking of him being evil for a good cause, if you catch what I am saying. Like maybe for power, authority and order as in Superman IJGAU or simply out of Paranoia against the Justice League.
I do keep on insisting making this a Batman vs JLA story because it actually the only sensible way villainising Batman could work. It's not like they can make him rob a bank or destroy a planet now is it?
Maybe in this kind of an arc, The Scarecrow or Joker can poison Batman with a toxin that makes him hyper-paranoid and causes him to lose his shit and think that the JLA has to be eradicated. So he can secretly come up with an evil plot to terminate them. He can loosen his morals in this type of a story as I said before. Of course, the league will have to take him down in a case like this but it would be an awesome story if written with thought.
Batman has a lot of aspects that make him open to becoming a villain:
He has a certain degree of psychosis.
He is definitely paranoid.
He can also lack emotion at times. This is quite rare however.
He experienced a childhood trauma which bugs him for life.
Regardless of his career as a vigilante, crime is only increasing in Gotham and he is creating his own villains. His failure can easily lure him to the dark side.
I'm saying maybe they should emphasize on his dark side a little more often and on how his childhood trauma can lead to him having personality disorders that push him into doing some not so good deeds.
This could make a good story arc or even an else worlds tale! I don't think it will ruin Batman's character at all. All of the other main characters in both DC and Marvel went through becoming evil, even if it was for just one arc. Seeing another perspective into a character should be interesting in my opinion. Especially if the character has great potential to be taken a look at from another perspective. Especially if the character is Batman!
They should hear this idea out and maybe create a story where Batman's dark aspects are explored in depth. This way a potential Batman vs Justice League story would make more sense as well. In Endgame, the league was villainised and lacked morals and in Tower of Babel, Batman still remained the good guy despite of his paranoid actions against the league. I say make Batman the villain and take his morals away while the league keeps theirs. You will have an interesting story and hopefully not as much people to complain.
I hope these ideas can someday come to life...
If you don't agree with me, it's fine. At the end of the day I'm just some guy sharing his opinion on something. Though I would like a civil debate if you are willing to, just keep in mind to each is hisown..
So I had created this blog before as Superman vs Batman in a fair point of view. After it had received quite a lot of negative views, I decided to try and re express my thoughts in a more fashionable manner.
The main reason I had created this blog, was to counter/correct some misconceptions that had been introduced in CitizenBane's blog:
Now do not get me wrong, this blog, by no means is offensive to CitizenBane, but it is also a fact that whenever there is a superman vs batman debate, that blog is shown as a reference. With all my respects to CitizenBane, I would like to point out the mistakes in his blog. I am not saying everything in his blog is flawed, in fact, there are some nice points introduced there, but there are also some ideas that simply does not seem fair.
Before you read this blog, I would advise you to check the linked blog first (It is unlikely that you haven't though.)
Note: I have used the scans provided by CitizenBane, Credits for that to him.
Batman is trying to find the joker for murdering Jason, but the joker was given a diplomatic immunity by Iran. So superman wants bruce to calm down and go home since there is nothing he can do about it.
Batman, is really pissed at everything that is happening so he takes it out of supes and punches him in the face. However, he ends up crippling his hand because superman is just too tough for batman's punch. Although this is an advantage for superman, it really doesn't introduce anything new about these characters. I mean, anyone with minimal knowledge about superman and batman would know that batman cannot hurt superman with his bare hands. This is not a fight between the two and just because batman cannot hurt superman with his bare knuckles doesn't mean he can't hurt him with kryptonite.
The Dark Knight Returns (non canon)
Alright, I believe this example is one of the most flawed points of CitizenBane's blog.
Anyone who has read this graphic novel would get the idea that batman beats up superman. He punches him, kicks his throat, electrifies him and ends up having his hands on his throat. Although it isn't an easy fight, it is quite easy to look at the scans and say, batman clearly gave superman the beating of his life time.
From CitizenBane's Blog:
"Note how Batman claims that he's "the one man who beat you". Batman can claim whatever he wants. Even with one-sided prep and backup, the fight didn't end with him holding Superman's seemingly dead body, did it?"
Not only is it easy enough to see batman beating up superman, it is also fairly straightforward that Miller himself had actually indicated a victory for batman, I mean come on, Why would batman actually go ahead and say "I wan't you to remember the one man who beat you" If he hadn't actually received a victory of some sort. It is clear that miller actually meant this fight to be a batman victory.
Batman(or technically the author of this novel) can state whatever he wants eh?CitizenBane? Well I would personally would like to believe what the author of a novel indicates rather than your own thoughts.
Here are some points from CitizenBane's blog that digs for a superman victory.
"Batman doesn't end up holding superman's dead body while he suffers a heart attack because he pushed himself to his limits" - First of all, batman does NOT suffer a heart attack, it was all a part of his plan to escape the government. He simply fakes his death.Second, Batman never intended to kill superman (Was he supposed to? I mean seriously.) in this battle nor did superman intend to kill him, but batman achieved what he wanted when he had his hands on super mans throat.
"Superman was holding back"- Superman was weakened(Which was pretty much balanced by Batman being 60 years of age) but he was not holding back. He had to turn batman in to the government as a part of his mission, though he did not intend to kill batman, there was no point of holding back of him as he needed to do it as his mission. He does state that he was concerned about Bruce's heart, because Bruce had a plan to fake his death, but he says that at the near end of the fight after batman had beaten him and already had his hands on his throat.
"Batman had outside help" - I don't think it is sensible to call it "outside help" when a one armed Green Arrow who had a dozen of police officers in his tail simply shoots a kryptonite arrow at Superman who literally catches it on mid air. If you haven't understood it yet, all Batman intended to do with GA was to bring the Kryptonite in range which he could have perfectly done it without Arrow's assistance, heck he could have even used it at the beginning of the fight and end superman even quicker. But he didn't, only because:
1. He wanted to actually fight Superman with his armour before finishing him with the kryptonite, so he wanted Arrow to only shoot it at the "right time" Instead of the beginning. All because batman was technically going easy on superman.
2. Green Arrow actually wanted to contribute to the defeat of Superman because he had a thing or two against him.
In conclusion, the help by green arrow wasn't anything that changed the fate of the fight, it was in fact, a way to make the fight longer for superman.
This encounter is clearly a win for batman, and giving any advantage to superman in this encounter would be unbelievably senseless; unfortunately, Bane's blog had given superman an advantage for this case which is probably the biggest flaw it had.
The tower of Babel incidence. Although this is not a direct batman vs superman encounter, it suggests that batman has came up with plans capable of taking down the Jla. There is no need for any scans or explanations for that because it is Ra's with batman's plans burning the Justice league. And, in that story arc, the synthetic kryptonite created by batman worked on Superman as it simply made him get harmed from sunlight and inflict severe damage to him. Although this is not an encounter, it suggests batman having the potential plans to beat superman in case he ever went rogue. One funny and I do mean it FUNNY note I have seen in Citizen Bane's blog is that:
"That Ra's had far greater resources than batman and batman wouldn't be able to do what he did"
Alright, It could be true that Ra's has greater resources than batman and an army at his disposal, that doesn't mean batman cannot use his contingency against Superman. First thing: Batman is wealthy enough to carry out the contingencies he planned, you don't necessarily need the amount of wealth Ra's has to acquire what he did. Second, Why would batman create plans that he is not capable of carrying on, in this case all he has to do is to use the kryptonite he created against superman which Ra's has done easily using one of his assassin/henchmen. Why couldn't batman do it?
The Dark Knight Strikes Again (non canon)
So I agree on this being a really bad comic, but it does still present batman with a lot of help from Flash, the Atom, Green Arrow and a lot of prep beat superman.
Another instance of batman beating superman with prep, but it really is an example that should be ignored in my opinion, the comic really does suck. But advantage batman.
Possibly the most famous fight between the two. An occasion where superman is mind controlled by poison ivy and batman has to push superman out of the mind control with the kryptonite ring he has.
I believe I had some flaws on my previous thoughts on this encounter.
One point you should note about this fight is that:
Batman had no prep, only a kryptonite ring, unlike in TDKR while he actually shown his ability to prep against superman.
The effects of the kryptonite ring depends on the writer for the most. In this encounter, the writer had shown that a kryptonite ring isn't able to keep Superman from using his super speed as batman states that superman could have used it if he wasn't fighting of the mind control. On the other hand, other writers such as of the author of the 1990's superman annual had shown that a kryptonite ring in fact is enough to actually kill superman, as I said before, it depends.
So in this fight batman beats superman up using the kryptonite ring until superman flies out of the underground sewer and picks up a car to throw at batman but is stopped by cat woman who throws lois out of a building which eventually causes superman to break out of the mind control. Throughout the fight, batman mentions that he almost breaks his hands while he constantly punches superman with the ring. This probably means that the ring isn't enough for superman in this case. Batman also mentions that superman holds back because of the mind control and could have used his super speed to smash him. Although a defeating a holding back superman isn't a bad feat at all, it is clear that superman would have won that fight if he wasn't holding back. However that doesn't mean superman can or will beat batman if he actually had time to prepare. If batman had more of a time to prepare, he wouldn't just rely on one kryptonite ring would he? He would have brought more kryptonite (A kryptonite ring on each of his 10 fingers perhaps?) which wouldn't let superman use his super speed against him. My point being this isn't a scenario where both of these characters were to their full potential. Batman does manage to get what he wants by strapping superman of the mind control, but I also agree that superman could have easily won if he wasn't holding back. This example proves that superman can beat batman if batman doesn't have time to prepare.
Superman: Red Son (non canon)
This one is another Graphic novel that is pretty well written. Batman ties up wonder woman and when superman comes to help, he has to face batman on a one on one encounter.
So the fight is pretty simple as batman simply humiliates superman with the help of the red sun lamps.
The plan did belong to lex luthor, but batman had a nice use of it himself. Later on wonder woman destroys the lamps to free superman.
Batman had the prep time to set up a trap for superman that helped beating him on one on one. It is a pretty obvious victory for batman. However, Citizen Bane's blog actually gave superman the advantage because batman killed himself in the end as he didn't want to fight superman after Wonder Woman spoiled his plan. Alright, Let's look at the "fight" between Batman and Superman before Wonder Woman got involved. Superman get's outsmarted by batman and lured into the red sun trap. Then batman beats him up and locks him up. That should conclude the case as what we are looking for is the fight between batman and superman, NOT batman vs SUPERMAN AND WONDER WOMAN.
There is no point in resisting that batman would have actually killed superman if wonder woman wasn't there to help Superman. So, CitizenBane, it is outside help when a one armed Green Arrow sends a slow kryptonite arrow to superman but not when superman's butt is barely saved by Wonder Woman?
Not only does batman outsmart Superman, he also manages to tie Wonder Woman up before that. (Yeah it doesn't make sense).
In the end, after wonder woman helps superman(Who had already been defeated by batman and left for dead.) get out of the red sun trap, batman kills himself as he cannot fight superman without his red sun generators. But still, the whole idea of batman killing himself doesn't negate the fact that he humiliated superman on a one on one fair encounter.
Here Superman and Batman fight an alternate future version of Superman.
While it is not really a fight, superman does ned up having a car on top of batman. You should note that having a car on batman does not necessarily mean instant kill, and this whole event is just too short to conclude anything(batman could have had a plan to escape, or not) but it is an advantage for supes since he clearly has the edge.
Adventures of Superman #642
Superman is mind-controlled by Max Lord and placed in an illusion where he thinks he's fighting Darkseid but in reality he's fighting Batman. He's enraged because he saw Darkseid kill Lois in the illusion, so he's taking it out on Batman.
This is one case where superman clearly beats up batman, there is no pint of denying that. However the fight really isn't shown that well and leaves a lot of question marks. First of all, superman is in an illusion so he is trying to kill batman, although batman had to defend himself, he was caught off guard (which really is bad writing for batman), he didn't even have that kryptonite ring at the first place. There you have it, batman with no prep, kryptonite or awareness that he was going to fight superman ultimately get's beaten. But that really is obvious, by now anyone should know that batman without kryptonite or prep doesn't have a chance against superman. In this case, batman getting beaten by an enraged superman while he had no prep whatsoever doesn't prove anything about what would have happened if batman had prep.
Advantage Superman-Can't deny that.
Bats is possessed by the Kryptonite Man. That's right. He's literally glowing with kryptonite.
CitizenBane gave advantage to superman while he is not even fighting batman. Yes, the kryptonite monster had taken batman's body, so it's not him any more. Superman just beats up a freak in batman's body thats it! Simply speaking, this is superman against a peak human body, since it's batman's body that is used by the kryptonite monster.
What makes batman special is his intelligence and skills, when the kryptonite monster possesses him, he is nothing but a body for it to use, his intel and skills are all gone under the control of the kryptonite monster and superman does in fact beat the monster up to free batman, not a fight between the two at all. No advantage to any one here.
The same incidence as above where superman beats up a creature that controls batman's body.
One argument introduced in the other blog was that batman had super powers in this while in reality, it wasn't even batman superman is fighting. Just like mentioned above, some freak controlling batman's body. No advantage.
Here you go guys, If you still think there are flaws with the ideas presented, please, feel free to point them out....