deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

Krayt solos, but just before he does, Bane and Malgus get atomised by the excess energy that leaks out from Yoda and Krayt's mere presence.

Good thread imo.

Not sure what Bloodshot has got most recently, but failing anything groundbreaking, Gilad kicks his ass. Way more skilled, way stronger, similar toughness and damage soak.

It's possible to catch someone off-guard, and if you're more powerful and thus faster, more skilled and more clairvoyant, it becomes easier to find those opportunities to get around defences. Even lesser characters can pin/choke stronger ones if the circumstances favour it, e.g Kanan pinning the Inquisitor for like 20 seconds, Savage choking Ventress and Dooku at the same time.

There are also times where one character has more raw power (e.g Anakin) but can be defeated by one with more skill (Dooku) which couldn't be shown more clearly than here:

It needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

@spectral__: Yeah it was a full-effort feat.

I'm also not sure if this is even an EU thread or Canon-only.

@spectral__: He moved a dovin basal, an artificial gravity singularity. Depending on the size they have done everything from swallow turbolaser fire, carry capital ships through the galaxy barrier and drag a moon into a planet. They're often referred to as "artificial black holes".

There's also a quote where Luke is rooting himself against telekinesis, and its said nothing could move him, not even the black hole at the centre of the galaxy, but it's obviously hyperbole.

So that's where the misconceptions come from.

@amethystgravity: He was described as being so weak he couldn't even move a small object with TK or pull himself from the floor, and also that he was close to death. However even if he did recover (I wasn't aware the interim could have been that long) it still happened off-panel.

The Dramath thing is far more circumstance-ridden and uniquely personal to Valkorion than the Abeloth-Vol fight, but you mentioned earlier that you think it's too circumstantial to use as evidence for Vol?

It's a great comparison because it more closely pits their raw power against one another without any environmental factors. Abeloth not being able to blast Vol away from her and being devastated by his attack (despite her being much superior to full-powered Luke and capable of tanking his best attacks) is just great however you slice it.

Since we're discussing burden of proof, you've given yourself the burden of proving that Abeloth is so mentally unstable that she cannot accurately gauge the relative strength of two Force users she has had very intimate fights with respectively. That's your claim. You're essentially saying to Abeloth "yes, I hear what you're saying, but you're not in the right frame of mind to be making any judgements".

If you're asking me to prove that Force users have good judgement about these things, that's been demonstrated countless times across the lore. An example would be Yoda gauging Dooku's relative strength to Windu which would be validated when the two of them fight in the comic Obsession.

If you're saying that a character statement only ever carries weight when proven on a case by case basis, that's fine, but then I'm curious why you're confident Caedus wins? Most of his best stuff is reliant on character perspectives and statements, and there's no particular feat of his I know of that makes me think he could duplicate what Vol did with Abeloth.

@amethystgravity: Vol was on the brink of death after the first fight, so seeing as the second takes place off-panel, I'm not sure why you think this proves anything? If he was stomped there is a valid excuse, and if he wasn't that's an astounding feat unto itself, but either way, it was off-panel. In contrast, the first (and more important) fight happens on the telepathic plane. So the strength of her avatar is irrelevant.

Abeloth tries to sever the connection between them with a blast but Vol resists her. She only severs the connection after Vol throws "all" of his energy into a final attack (which alone would exhaust him, by definition), and following this she blasts him again and he still survives, if only barely.

I'm not aware of any reason Abeloth should not be an objective assessor of her own situation, but if you have evidence, I'm willing to see it.

Vol wins. Rooting himself against Abeloth long enough to throw his full power into attacking her mind, which she later recounted as a "devastating encounter" that would suggest Vol has "much the power of Luke Skywalker" (Abeloth has seen Luke bursting with Force energy from every cell in his body prior to this), is better than what Caedus has.

We don't have any details on Vol's physical abilities, but that doesn't prove they are lacking either. Often enough a superior command of the Force is more important than raw skill anyway, and I'm sure being the leader of a cutthroat Sith Order for the better part of a century Vol's combat abilities have seen sufficient practice.

I'm not sure how clear it is the importance of raw power vs skill in Canon. Maul clearly has the latter over Rey and Kylo in spades so the question is whether or not that is enough to take the W.

A lot of the arguments being used for Reylo apply equally to Dooku, but I'm not sure the same people making them would so readily give either the edge over Dooku.

@idrisiangraecus: Let's just say I'm not holding my breath.