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Going to put myself to sleep for a bit. So long, everyone! Thanks for all the fish!

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Current Odin gets stomped.

Prime Odin stomps if he gets his tie-in feats.

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@namebk said:

@zr2011: Gungnir has disintegrated characters that are much more durable than Jean. She's pretty much a human in durability.

No Caption Provided

Odin needs his comic feats, like KOing Thor with a BFR. And multi star-level hax.

Surtur scaling should be well on the docket,

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I turned Shuma when I saw punked Kaluu do the scaling.

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Nah, I saw her at an orgy yesterday.

How nice. Was DCEU Zeus present?

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@lan_fan said:

@rajjar:

If he hates Superman because he just does, then I don't care. However, that's not the case, he's saying that hates the character because of the debaters, which us why he's here, and why I'm replying.

He never actually named specific debaters, now, did he? He didn't even say the word "debater." He's most likely blaming the wankers that you are unintentionally defending. Unless you two have a history on this site or something like that.

I hate that people are trying to blame the fanbase for their distaste of characters when it's simply their own problem. True, the fanboys are the water and fertilizer, but it's your problem that you have such a healthy seed. In the end, you must also be butthurt to have that seed to begin with.

Well, it's not like incursion2 is wrong about the source of his personal feelings being augmented by his experiences. I hope he responds, because I cannot account for his experiences - I can only do for my own.

Not all types of hate could create that seed. People can dislike characters without downplaying their feats. Your hate must involve non-healthy amount of bias and butthurt in order to develop one strong seed. Which is why this whole thing is on you guys, not us. Every characters have their own wankers, it's only natural.

Well yeah, and it goes both and all ways. I suppose that's the truth of the matter.

It's like crying because the seed you planted started growing because it has been raining lately. Blaming the rain instead of yourself who planted the seed.

Or like crying if someone sprayed Agent Orange in the area and the seed grew into a husk of a plant like Clark after the nuke.

True, but he completely blamed us for his hate, which is a shit move. Even then it's completely possible to hate a certain franchise without being too biased or being butthurt at its fanbase, and I'm free to call people out for not doing these.

I suppose so, but I'd question why you'd want to defend a base that's encouraged toxicity in the pursuit of its wank. Most of the Thor wankers know that star-level is a meme, but speedblitz is also a meme as well, even though it's treated as a serious one-shot strategy. It's also noticed that all the high-end feats of the MCU get downplayed, while characters in DCEU notably get generous scaling when they are lacking in feats. God forbid I do scaling on IW Thanos. It's not like I remember when everyone forgot the Power Stone was amping him. I shouldn't have to depend on the Russo brothers of all people to prevent a fanbase's agenda-setting.

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@crunch5481 said:
@rajjar said:
@crunch5481 said:

I said catching a punch like Zod did would. Zod did it in a very specific way where he caught the punch in the middle of the strike and once he made contact with the fist the movement stopped exactly like in the gif below between Hulk and Hulkbuster. That means the forces were practically equal. Saying "neutralized" probably was not the best word to use, but my point was that in order to negate the force of the punch you have to apply a counteracting force. The counteracting force does not need to equal the full punch force IF the counteracting force is applied for duration of time, while the punch is just a burst of force. If the counteracting force is less than the punch force than the punch would be shown to slow down before stopping. Since the punch stopped immediately upon contact with Zod's hand that means he applied practically the same force. Catching a punch is neutralizing its movement to be more precise, since in the end you're stopping it. There is all the proof in the world that he did in fact do what you are claiming he did not. We see him move his hand at an equal speed to Superman and they meet in the middle and stop immediately, that's the proof. You're attempt to explain it away saying that the energy transferred through his palm and spread out is just BS quite frankly. That doesn't actually mean anything and it does not change the fact that he stopped the punch immediately which requires by definition an equal force.

1) All of this requires the idea that Zod caught Clark's punch at full force. Literally look at the angle of the swing and when it was stopped. Zod stuffed the punch, and that's about it (I edited my post earlier - apologies).

My point was that Zod isn't moving his hand in the same manner (direction, form, whatever) and Clark didn't fully swing either (punch didn't even start curving) so the debate starts and ends there, because Clark didn't reach maximum potential on that punch to begin with. It's not even a distinguishable punch, so to say that single punch indicates a 500 ton feat is smells more disingenuous than all the BS I've thrown at you.

There is also a shockwave when Zod catches Superman's punch along with the immediate stoppage of both hands. It's literally the same thing except Zod had his hand open to grab Superman's fist.

2) When was that?

Yes it would. Put your hands together and push them hard in a way that they don't actually move. Congrats you are matching a force. Now punch a brick wall, and tell me if the wall moves or if the wall simply stops your hand dead in its tracks. When you make contact with the wall, the force of your punch is matched by the wall and exerted back upon your hand as well as the wall, and since the wall is strong enough it does not move and your motion is neutralized. Simple as that. In fact whenever you walk around, the ground beneath you is constantly matching the force of your weight and pushing back up on you. The ground neutralizes your downward movement when you jump and land. Same concept.

3) There is no force acting on the wall against my blow. The wall has enough mass that I can't move it at all. The energy transferred still goes into the wall, though.

And yeah, normal force for the ground, that's nice and all, but it doesn't apply here because the applications aren't simply two forces interacting with each other directly. It's not as simple as that when arm movement and interaction in martial arts has more to do with technique rather than input of random value of newtons on fist.

Are you suggesting that if they were equalized in force in those two gifs, the neutralization would have still happened tantamount to the original punch catching gif?

It did produce a shockwave, but it was smaller because it was just an arm being thrown not a whole body along with room to speed up. Neither of your arguments work as explained above.

I didn't see one.

EDIT: NVM I see it now. But that only proves my argument on the second to last quote.

I already said I believe it was the energy surrounding her that Thanos hit, due to the reaction that occured (his head just bouncing off like he hit a forcefield).

4) Do you know that for sure? The energy is hers. The power is hers. His head came in contact with her head. Why would her energy solidify?

I don't understand what your point is with that second sentence lol, the only way to increase the speed of your fist is to use your own muscle strength (or flight but that's not what happened in the Zod scene in question).

5) Heh, no. It's flight and speed while in flight. p=mv for a reason. Therefore those are amps.

I'm not making any claims about the actual exact force of the punch. My overall point is that it is blatantly obvious that these two are meant to be on par with each other. It could not have been clearer.

6) Okay. That doesn't give him a 500 ton feat.

This one particular scene demonstrates that well because you are not going to catch the punch of someone who is significantly stronger than you. Hulk is not going to catch a punch from Thanos even if he had the skill to because Thanos is stronger than him.

7) But catching punches requires technique and specific conditions to begin with. You aren't catching the punch of someone as equally as strong as you either, unless you do what Zod did and catch it before it extends at max forward momentum. You can't physiologically exert that kind of force in the movement you use to catch said punch by equally strong person. Atleast not with a humanoid build. The point I was making is that catching punches isn't an issue of strength to begin with. It's all technique.

Like this, for example.

https://i.imgur.com/cftGmOg.mp4

It's not really comparable, but it shows some level of analogy that equivalency never existed when it came to stopping objects in motion from a different angle of motion. Clark couldn't even produce a decent shockwave compared to the Nam-ek or Zod beatdowns on the streets due to the punch being caught. It suggests that it got stopped before it got fully extended, since Clark's punch didn't even start curving. As in the Hulk v Hulkbuster gif, equalized forces hitting each other directly at that tier causes great damage to the environs. If Zod truly hit Clark's hand at equal force, which is impossible because Zod wasn't striking Clark to begin with, then the shockwave would have been much bigger.

Don't act like Thor's lightning is consistent. On the lower side his bolts are small and easily compared to real world lightning bolts, on his upper side obviously not. It's not always the same level of intensity.

8) Mhm. Small bolt that could fit inside my throat being 475% supercharge for an IM suit that has more than 8 Gigajoule per second output. And while we are on consistency, how's it going for Kryptonian destructive capability?

And why would Thor want to bust city-blocks all willy nilly? Like, there's a reason the Warriors 3 and Sif and Loki were far away before he unleashed the Jotunheim feat, and why he waited for Iron Man's cue for Sokovia. Having control over his lightning doesn't mean total inconsistency.

1) Their hands met in the middle and it does not matter what angle they came from, in order to stop like that Zod needed to have supplied equal force, that's just how physics work lol. I never said it represented a 500 ton feat. You claimed Zod never physically contested Superman, which catching a punch is most certainly a physical contest. And that my larger point is that they are supposed to be on par with each other, the fight was dead even until Superman got a lucky chokehold.

Fair enough.

3) Alright so you do not understand physics then. There is absolutely a force acting on you from the wall, lol. That's a very basic physics concept. Newton's third Law. Tell a physicist that there is no force from the wall when you punch it lol.

There is no motion on anything that force could be said to be acting on, so I fail to see your point, even though I did sound like an idiot in that last post.

But wall is at rest. Where's the net external force coming from? It's not like the wall is in motion for it to pertain to what we are talking about it here. I know there is an equal and opposite reaction, lmao, but it is useless here. Because if Clark struck Zod's chest, said Third Law would still apply.

4) No, I don't know it for sure but I find that more plausible given how easily he threw her just prior to that along with like I said the reaction of his head. He bounced off like he hit a forcefield. That's how forcefields (energy fields) are commonly portrayed. Plus she was radiating the energy, it was visible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryeo86HwyMk

I'll wait for the visible energy to appear around her head. If there was this headcanon forcefield, why would the surfaces of their limbs be able to touch each other?

5) Dude I literally mentioned flight in my statement and you treated it like I didn't. I said flight would affect it too, but their flight was not a factor in the catching punch scene, they were holding each other not flying towards each other.

I recognized that, but I was limiting it to flight because that's the majority of the best striking feats.

6) Theres this thing called scaling.

Yeah, it's funny how Kryptonians, adapted and unadapted, get it so easily when they are lacking in feats.

7) Or you could be stronger lol. You seem to be arguing the punch wasn't that strong, which ok, I never stated it to be any strength. You're completely wrong about it being all technique I don't know how you came to that conclusion, you're technique can be as good as you want but if you're overpowered then you're overpowered. I think it's true that his punch was stopped before it was fully extended. It technically was a strike, just an open hand one directed towards a fist. All a strike is, is just hitting something, he hit Superman's fist.

Yeah, you could, but you can stop them from extending the punch. Hence, stuffing the punch. Catching a punch requires technique, which is all I said in the quote. If your position isn't affected by them from exerting more force while their fist is still in the palm, then yes, you are much stronger. But overpowering isn't an issue if the punch isn't fully extended yet, and it was an split second thing, anyway.

8) I don't believe IM's suit requires that much power, that statement is BS. The special feature for BvS should have been accurate as well but it clearly wasn't as 300dB is insane. What I meant by inconsistent is that he changes the output all the time.

It's not accurate because it failed to Krakatoa the environment around him. And the Manhole.

I know he has control. Idk what your point is about Kryptonian destructive capability, as it's been pretty damn impressive.

Can it reach large-building level without built-up speed? With built up speed?

Jotunheim was only so large because it was a suspended sheet of ice. Know what a keystone is? the middle stone in an arch bridge, you take it out everything falls apart. Similar concept to suspended sheet of ice, it will crumble very easily if you break one section like Thor did.

HEHEHE. More lowballing.

It's not like the ice structures were the only thing that was breaking. Jotunheim ice is still crystal clear, ya know. Stone was also breaking.

Sokovia was not because of Thor's power, that was by far the energy of the vibranium core.

What? That's lowballing. It didn't start vaporizing until the lightning bolt after Thor struck hit Sokovia.

Loading Video...

Can you prove that the vibranium core's energy busted Sokovia? Let's not pretend that the disintegration at the top was due to Stark's actions or the core. The core isn't even located there, lmao. Next thing you'll tell me is that this shockwave wasn't due to Thor's strike.

No Caption Provided

Thor only cracked it, then Iron Man heat sealed it so the energy released would double back and vaporize the rock it would have instead just cracked into pieces.

Yeah, Thor's energy. The energy transferred from the strike and bolt goes downward, and Stark's heat seal sends it back the other way. Which then causes the true bust.

  • Tony Stark: The spire's Vibranium. If I get Thor to hit it...
  • FRIDAY: It'll crack, but that's not enough, the impact would still be devastating.
  • Tony Stark: Maybe if we cap the other end, keep the atomic action doubling back.
  • FRIDAY: That could vaporize the city, and everyone on it.
No Caption Provided

The explosion was nowhere near said core. It was cracking to the point of disintegration.

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...

And guess who was supercharging the Vibranium core? Tony Stark with that energy output.

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@crunch5481 said:
@rajjar said:
@crunch5481 said:
@rajjar said:
@crunch5481 said:
@rajjar said:

@crunch5481:

I’m on my phone so the quotes get screwed if I edit, but I misspoke. Tony said that the arc reactor he built in IM 1 was 3 gigajoules per second. Yinsen and him had a little back and forth on its scale. So it’s less stupid than a throwaway Decibel value from a source that doesn’t know what decibels are, compared to the genius who invented time travel and a physically impossible to exist Iron Man suit. I dunno why he would be bullshitting if his life was on the line.

Even 1 GW is absolutely ridiculous, I don't think you quite understand how much energy that it is.That's still more than double the power NYC uses.

Ridiculous is a subjective term. Where are you getting your numbers?

http://www.peakpowerllc.com/notes/2015/2/17/whats-the-problem-with-peak-demand

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/02/10/nyregion/how-new-york-city-gets-its-electricity-power-grid.html

To help finance the $1.3 billion project and to modernize its distribution networks, Con Ed requested a rate increase, which the state approved in January. After a nearly five-year freeze, customers will see a raise of 2.3 percent to 2.4 percent in the next three years. A typical city resident who uses 300 kilowatt-hours per month would see an increase from $78.52 to $80.30.

https://www.convertunits.com/from/kWh/to/gigajoule

300 KwH is more than 1 gigajoule. From my own research, I'm less than confident that your numbers are accurate.

Independently, I don't see any reason to discount Stark's tech. We don't lowball for 616 IM for these arguments, so I think there's too much flak on this scene. Yinsen even gives a scale to show us that it would power him for many, many lifetimes. Favreau clearly intended it to be there - it's not a throwaway thing like Clark shifting a tectonic plate. We see Tony making it and we have statements covering it. It isn't right to denounce it as bs just because it isn't realistic. Lightning doesn't even bust buildings in real life, and no planetoid like Asgard could exist in the real universe due to how gravity shapes the curvature of objects. Powering the IM suit wouldn't even be physically possible.

And real lightning is already multi-gigajoule at high-end.

There is energy and there is power. They are different. You are confusing the two.

1 GJ is an amount of energy.

1 GW is an amount of power. 1 Watt is 1 Joule per second.

I know that, I even made another post to clear up that I meant energy, not power for IM.

NYC uses 11,000 MegaWatt Hours of electricity every day (http://theleonardsteinbergteam.com/how-much-electricity-does-new-york-use/). MegaWatt Hours is a unit of energy. To determine the amount of power that NYC uses, you must divide that number by 24 hours (https://www.hunker.com/13414129/how-to-convert-megawatt-hours-to-megawatts). That gives you a little less than 500MW.

That means NYC uses a little less than 500MW of power, which means they use 500,000,000 Joules of energy every second, vs 3,000,000,000 Joules of energy for second for an Iron Man suit? Yeah no.

Dear Lord. Why are you giving ethos to a real estate agent with no sources to back him up? I saw that too, you know. I think my sources are massively more credible.

Peak Power LLC provides strategic advisory and project development services focused on deploying distributed energy resources and large-scale renewables into a rapidly-evolving electric utility system.

These are the sources used by the NYT. It's pretty substantiated.

Selected Sources: Joseph J. Cunningham, author of “New York Power;” Electric Power Research Institute; Suzanne Hunt, president of HuntGreen LLC; April Lee, senior electricity analyst at the U.S. Energy Information Administration; Natural Resources Defense Council; Ben Pickard, principal of Peak Power LLC; Matt Wald, senior communications adviser at the Nuclear Energy Institute.

Here's the report for the 300kwh per person value.

http://www3.dps.ny.gov/pscweb/WebFileRoom.nsf/Web/CFB9ABE597E7D34E852580B200727BD1/%24File/pr17007.pdf?OpenElement

So I suggest you find a more reliable source. Or use mine. I'll refrain from calcs for now.

By the way, why is it problematic that the Iron Man suit contains an unrealistic amount of energy? I don't see any people piping this up with DCEU Kryptonians and their HV. The real arc reactor is much bigger in IM's home factory, and real power stations are multi-GJ at their peak. When the Arc Reactor design is modelled after the Tesseract and created with an unknown element that we do not know the properties of, it is headcanon to call it as BS. All of MCU science is, by the standards being used. The propulsion tech and repulsor blasts aren't even physically possible. Powering up a city wouldn't even produce enough to do the things IM does on a daily basis, mainly because they aren't possible to begin with.It's ridiculous, yes, but rejecting it on its ridiculous nature alone isn't enough.

"Wow, that doesn't look like a Jericho missile."

"That's because it is a miniaturized arc reactor. We got a big one powering my factory at home. It should keep the shrapnel out of my heart."

"But what could it generate?"

"If my math is right, and it always is... three gigajoules per second."

"That could run your heart for 50 lifetimes."

"Yeah. Or something big for 15 minutes. This is our ticket outta here."

I don't think I have any place in overriding this scene with my headcanon, since any quantification leads to fancalcs and unproductive debate. They clearly put the work into quantifying it, so let them have the feat.

An average bolt of lightning contains 1 GJ of energy, NYC would use all of the energy a lightning bolt produces in 2 seconds. I refuse to believe the Iron Man suit could possibly use 8 GW of power, it doesn't even come close to doing anything that requires anywhere near that much energy.

It absorbed Thor's bolt pretty fine. We were talking about total energy capacity, after all, rather than necessity to complete tasks requiring work.

And I've already extended on how lightning pales to the amount of power Thor can channel. HV is not comparable. Not in heat. And not in power.

Bruh.

"For electric customers, a typical residential customer in New York City (using 300 kilowatt hours per month)"

Did you read the sentence? That's for one person, over a whole month. Not the whole city, per second.

You interpreted your source wrong.

Lmao, you're noticing that now? If you read the NYT quote I posted, which is now emphasized in big font above, you would have already known that. No interpretation, it literally states that.

I like how you ignore that I never contested the time metric that I quoted. I was only using the evidence as better evidence than what you provided. And speaking of ignoring, I bet you didn't even click the first link.

No Caption Provided

This also disproves the stats for your real estate agent, but the fact that you trust his metrics over Tony Stark's....smh.

Im done debating this, but if you want to continue to believe that nonsense

This isn't a debate. Not when you dismiss all of Stark's evidence on the same grounds of not being realistic. That's not clash; it's evasion, and not actually being indicative of any actual debating of the most important character in this discussion: MCU Iron Man.

So Stark isn't allowed to make 3 GJ arc reactors? Stark's not allowed to power up a heat seal that preserves energy output that cracks a small city? I think I've proven that he has some level of feats that suggest gigajoule output, and you straight up admitted that regular lightning was a gigajoule on average, and Stark absorbed said lightning. I've always been talking about the maximum energy storage capacity in his suit, and none of your arguments are even aimed at that.

Note that all of these sub-points are under the larger point of establishing Thor's lightning is capable of more than multi-gigajoule and superior to HV. Which I think is true without question. Unless you bring the multi-GJ calcs for HV. Upon which the totality of your argument turns to shambles.

then I will start using Superman's 300dB resistance feat as fact.

And you can surely do so, as long as you admit that street concrete and manholes are also 300 dB. I mean, now that I've seen you compare this with the 300 DB, I can almost smell the cognitive dissonance. You seem to equate Favreau's nonsense with that of Snyder's even though there's been consistent effort in establishing the metrics for IM, while none for the debunked sonic cannon. All you are doing is repeating that it's too much energy for IM to handle without establishing why that's the case, when it's your burden of proof to do so. It's not like you've addressed the actual evidence outside of calling it as BS, while there is clear evidence that in the DCEU, 300 DB can't destroy a manhole. If you attacked the evidence and pointed out its flaws, then you could equate it to the ridicule of the 300 DB feat. But you're just applying real world energy metrics and saying, it's too much energy. You haven't addressed Iron Man at all in this debate to prove why that's too much energy for him. In other words, the application of your argument is in serious question, because nothing stops us from applying it to 616 IM and others because there is no standard you have given that tells us how to apply it. I'll trust Tony's math over anyone's calcs any day. He's the one who made the arc reactor and suit that can't exist to begin with.

I'll only concede on IM if you reject HV as a multi-GJ output, because wank for wank, and no wank for no wank. These two are on the same level of wank, because they are both energy emission, and they are GJ quantified.

But if you give serious consideration to the sonic cannon feat, I'll just extrapolate that cast iron can no-sell Tsar Bombas. And then strawman the $hit out of it.

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@kalkent said:

@rajjar: We can definitely scale it to MOS Superman's durability range, which already is very impressive.

What's the max energy durability on that? Oil rig?