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#1 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: Thanks for voting, but I need some clarification on somethings:

Major Hellstrom's argument suggested The Wizard can use a firestream to keep Strange on constant defense while the Wizard fires an Ice Blast and freezes Strange

Wait. Major never showed that the Wizard was capable of using both fire and ice magic simultaneously.

this wasn't really countered as GS's plan was for Strange to open a portal for both, but if The Wizard is firing a Fire Stream and then he fires an Ice Blast, how will Strange counter this as we have never seen Strange open 2 portals at once.

Again, Major never showed the Wizard using two elements simultaneously. Also I did counter it by saying that while Doctor Strange is BFRing all of the Wizard's attacks, Doctor Strange's Cloak will fly over to Wizard while he is attacking Strange and get incapacitated.

GS's only real counter was that we haven't seen The Wizard shoot an Ice Blast on the floor before, but we have seen that the Ice Blast has a large Area of Effect,

My argument was that the ice blast that has AoE is a condensed ball of magic that Doctor Strange can easily BFR.

He relied on scaling to the Guardians which isn't really accurate, just because certain characters can do something, doesn't mean others can.

Star Lord, who was made fun of for being overweight by Drax, is faster than Drax? Thoughts on this?

@frombeyond:Thanks for voting and for the feedback!

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@vsw: do you have anyone else? if so, give me a list

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist stomps Thunder h2h

For round two, if Thunder tags Iron Fist with a shockwave, she could pull a win. Even a wall busting strike could give Iron Fist a run for his money.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@vsw Can you represent any low mid tier characters (supersonic-hypersonic, building-city block level)

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom:

CLOSER | THE GOOD DOCTOR

No Caption Provided

For my closer, I will take a more proactive approach, so expect a different format for this post.

THE PLAN

As I have said in previous posts, Doctor Strange will most likely start off through attacking with his Cloak of Levitation, using it to incapacitate the Wizard. Due to having blitzed Drax himself, I'd argue that the Cloak should be able to do the same against the Wizard. However, my opponent seems to disagree, so I will address that first:

Second, that makes no sense, Groot and Drax are the tanks of the team, you can not simply say that they should also be as fast because everyone else is.

Rocket Raccoon and Star Lord are gadgeteers. The very archetypal mold they fit in to means that they shouldn't be physically superior to Drax, who is infamous for his physicality. And I'd say that Drax is more akin to Gamora than Groot in terms of roles in the team as they share more similarities aesthetically such as being infamous warriors who have a connection to Thanos and Ronan. This further supports that Drax and Gamora should be in the same tier of physicals as Gunn has clearly emphasized their similarities as warriors and has established them as relative equals.

That is like saying that because Wonder Woman, Superman, Aquaman and Cyborg are strong, Batman is too.

This analogy is fallacious for a multitude of reasons. For one, Batman doesn't have any powers and is clearly established as the strategist of the team. And you are comparing Batman to tanks of the team, the physically strongest members. I am comparing Drax to a scrawny Raccoon, a borderline overweight leader (yes, his nonathletic figure was poked fun at by Drax, further proving that Drax should be faster than him), and an infamous assassin who shares a lot in common with Drax aesthetically. I could maybe see you saying Gamora is faster than Drax, which I disagree with given what Gunn has established, but saying that Drax is slower than characters like Star Lord, who Drax made fun of for being nonathletic and who solely relies on his gadgets just doesn't make any sense.

We even see how Drax deals with an arrow esque weapon, and it doesn't look like he dodged it or caught it at all. Now you could say it was because Drax was caught off guard, but I could say the same thing about the cloak, I doubt Drax expected the cloak to be alive, much less able to incapacitate him.

He was only tagged by Yondu's arrow while he was sitting down, lounging, not expecting any attack. You can't say the same thing about when he got tagged by the Cloak because he was poised for battle and was expecting to be attacked. These are two vastly scenarios, and conflating them is just fallacious.

So now that we have established that Doctor Strange's cloak blitzed someone significantly above the casual arrow timing tier, there should be no question that the Wizard will be incapacitated before he can pull of any of his magic as he will be too busy trying to get the cloak off. This will allow Doctor Strange to close the distance and use his whip construct to finish the job.

THE BEST OFFENSE IS A GOOD DEFENSE

Now, on the off chance that the Wizard manages to react to the Cloak and tries to attack Doctor Strange, he has that covered as well:

Before I go into counters, I want to make it known that my opponent never provided any counters to my argument that Doctor Strange can just use a portal to counter fireballs. Instead, he decided to counter my shield argument, and solely focus on that. So why give spotlight to a contentious form of defense Doctor Strange has when I have a guaranteed form of defense I can focus on instead. So with that said, I won't be countering the arguments against Dormammu's scaling until my last section.

For starters, in regards to the ice blasts, as you can see, my opponent is clearly trying to paint a false picture:

And how would he stop Jacko from freezing the ground? Is Strange supposed to protect the entire area around him against an opponent who can attack quicker than he can defend?

That's the thing. The only time the Wizard showed that kind of AoE was when he condensed his ice blasts into a small ball of magic that has to come into contact with something to freeze it. Doctor Strange can easily use a portal to teleport it away while it is in mid air.

By implying that the Wizard can just freeze the ground from the getco with his AoE, you are trying to conflate these two gifs into one, which by feats, doesn't work.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

As for the Wizard attacking faster than Doctor Strange can defend, here is Doctor Strange casually defending against a mass of projectiles FAR faster than any of the Wizard's attacks.

No Caption Provided

Now, this should prove that the Wizard is certainly a top mage, and one of the best in the CoC universe.

Being well versed in magic has literally nothing to do with intelligence, let alone strategy.

I would say that he would need to be pretty smart to achieve all of this, but if you don't believe me, the Wizard was also revealed to be the strategist behind the blue team

While impressive, none of what you've shown translates to on the fly thinking in the midst of combat. As we have seen of the Wizard, while he may be smart in situations where he has time to think, when under pressure, he is prone to becoming very stubborn. This is seen with Santa where he continues to fire fireballs despite none of them having any effect on Santa.

You are judging the Wizard's combat prowess based on a clip that lasts less than 3 seconds long.

Dude, you and I both long the scene goes much longer than that as he continues to fire fireballs off screen as confirmed when the camera cuts back to him still hellbent on bringing Santa down with his fireballs.

That's more than enough time for the Wizard to realize his fireballs aren't working and change strategies.

The Wizard's blasts are so powerful that he usually doesn't have to do more than keep attacking, he wouldn't just change tactics in 3 seconds just because it didn't seem to be working yet, especially when it has never failed him prior.

Exactly, so why wouldn't he do the same with Doctor Strange's portals? Also it was way longer than 3 seconds if you'd actually show the whole clip.

No, the difference between Doctor Strange and Santa is that it is obvious that spamming fireballs at Strange won't do anything because Strange is using portals, unlike Santa.

For one, portals don't really exist in CoC, at least from the research I have done, so the Wizard won't know that it is a portal. Even if he does, you have to understand that the Wizard is from a very barbaric society where destroying things is the name of the game. So even if he does realize that it is a portal, which is unlikely since portals don't really exist in CoC (and have definitely not been used the way Doctor Strange uses them), the Wizard's first instinct would be to try and destroy it.

So while against Santa the Wizard had no reason to change tactics,

You mean except for the fact that Santa was no selling all of his attacks. Usually, his fireballs at the very least cause some amount of damage, but here Santa was no selling them, even laughing them off.

against Strange he has a good reason to reconsider his approach as he would notice that his attacks are literally vanishing when they touch the portals.

With your logic of the Wizard's past experience with destroying things over time in addition to the facts that he comes from a barbaric society and the fact that he doesn't know what a portal is, I find it unlikely that the Wizard will change tactics.

Even if he does, what can he even do with his fireballs. He can't try aiming somewhere else like Doctor Strange's legs or something like that because the portals Doctor Strange creates cover a big chunk of his body. So I fail to see an alternative strategy and my opponent has not provided one.

If he tries to switch to using ice, I have already said that he can just create a portal for that as well, so there is really no hope for the Wizard to harm Doctor Strange.

Arrow speed? Based on what? The guy threw that like a javelin, which is nowhere near arrow speed. 113 km/h vs 241.402 km/h.

While it may not have been arrow speed, it is still far faster than any of the Wizard's attacks which aren't as fast as javelin throws.

Which is the point, if Strange is busy with the portal, he is also busy not attacking.

Accept the Cloak of Levitation is sentient in it of itself and can fight the Wizard while Doctor Strange is defending against the Wizard's attacks. Essentially the Wizard will have to focus on two opponents as if he focuses on one at a time, the other one will close the distance and attack.

THE DEBATE

Finally, we arrive at the debate, and reflecting on who debate the best, I have to give myself some credit. I believe that my argument was more convincing and substantiated, and definitely not as bad as my opponent made it out to be:

But the fact is Dormmamu is featless, so anything you can provide in terms of scaling is just based on assumptions. Regardless of how silly it is, we are in a debate which means that there is no room for assumptions, only arguments backed up by facts, and if you cannot prove that Dormammu should be that powerful then since this is a debate, we cannot assume that he is that powerful.

There is so much wrong with this statement that I am just at a loss. For one, I want to point out that my opponent is clearly emphasizing this one point of my argument when it is but one of two ways Doctor Strange can defend against the Wizard. I even stated early on in this post that I am mostly relying on Doctor Strange's portals than the shields, so the fact that my opponent is trying to place so much emphasis on this aspect of my argument proves that he is blowing things way out of proportion.

Two, I don't know if my opponent is familiar with this, but there is such a thing called scaling. For the uninitiated (my opponent included), powerscaling is essentially the process of trying to determine a characters power (stregnth, speed, etc.) by comparing them to other characters. It is inherently rooted in a lack of fact as characters that need scaling, such as Dormammu, usually lack quantifiable feats or feats that put them at the level they should be relative to other characters. For example, Frieza is a confirmed planet buster, and even though we've never seen Goku bust a planet he beat Frieza, which through scaling, puts him at planet +. By your bias logic, because Goku hasn't busted a planet and because we are assuming that because Goku beat Freiza, he has more DC, that that would be a bad thing, which isn't the case. Hell, you yourself used scaling in your debate, albeit basic scaling.

I fail to see the difference here. I am taking what has been established in the narrative and scaling Dormammu off of what I see to be lesser characters based on statements from writers in addition to what has been established in the actual narrative itself. Just like how it would contradict narrative consistency to have Goku have less DC than Freiza given how they are portrayed relative to each other in terms of power, it would also contradict narrative consistency to have Dormammu have less DC than Civil War Iron Man given how they too are portrayed relative to each other in terms of power (and yes I do say relative to each other because Dormammu is established as a godly threat more powerful than any threat the Avengers as a collective has faced, so IroN Man individually, let alone in his weaker suits should be vastly more powerful).

So overall, I have made an attempt to prove that Dormammu is more powerful than Civil War Iron Man through scaling rooted in how they are portrayed relative to each other in the narrative. Not through "assumptions", which is an inaccurate overgeneralization.

To give you an example of this a comic book writer said that Luther Strode is "(roughly) twice as much as the world record holders are capable of"so Luther Strode, a guy who can ragdoll craters into the floor, is supposedly just twice as strong as real-world athletes, that was the intent at least, but clearly it has no bearing in actual debate (for those of you unaware, Strode is a popular high street leveler around these parts) especially since it is directly against actual showings.

And? You your self said that Dormammu is featless and unless there were EXPLICIT anti feats that I am missing, the writer's intent loses no credibility.

In addition, we also have to go off of portrayal, and based on that Dormammu is also established aa god like being, which further proves the validity of author's intent.

I am stating that Dormammu is featless, and your attempts to scale off Iron Man in an attempt to cover up that fact is unearned. Also, Fiege was clearly just hyping up his own film, Dormammu was not a threat to "all of reality", he needed human henchmen just to bypass Earth's shields which is just not impressive.

Because he was sealed in the Doom Dimension...

Also, I would just like to point out that MCU Strange blocking Dormmamu's blasts is an anti-feat for Dormmamu, since Dormammu is featless and in his only showing fails to one-shot a novice sorcerer supreme's shields.

A novice Sorcerer Supreme... Is the most powerful sorcerer in the world, and arguably more powerful than the Ancient One. And while a novice, Doctor Strange was practically a prodigy, excelling in the mystic arts.

CONCLUSION

Overall, my conclusion from my opener still stands, albeit it with minor tweaks.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio