deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1

They're both 7's, so it's not a bad matchup.

For Legends, however, Anakin at this point is still below Obi-Wan (Nick Gillard and the TCW junior novelization), who in The Cestus Deception was handily outsparred by Kit Fisto. So Skywalker goes down.

If it's canon only, then Anakin wins since Kit doesn't have enough to his name (to my knowledge, anyway) and Anakin's the more naturally gifted (though conversely, Kit's more experienced, but that probably won't matter as much).

Anakin is probably only below Obi-Wan in defense. His offense at the time was better.

No, and no. The legacy of the force novels contains statements that completely contradict these assessments.

Addressing Shooting Nova.

No, your interpretation of Luke and Caedus's abilities is directly contradicted by Luke's own assessment/narration.

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good.

-Star Wars Legacy of the Force: Fury

This is on chapter 36 if you doubt me. Through sheer scaling, you're assessment can't be right. Is grandmaster Luke clearly superior? Yes. Is Caedus not able to contend with him, or is Luke able to stomp him? No. Through sheer scaling, and not even touching feats, Caedus should be significantly above Anakin, regardless of the version, unless you're going to argue that GM Luke of all people is only somewhat better than Anakin.

Addressing thesithmaster

For you, I'm focusing on your potential statement, which could only be true if Anakin > Luke in force potential, and is doubtfull even then. Reread chapter 33 of Betrayal. The tipping point for Jacen was witnessing that in every future he could see that involved Nelani bringing Lumiya in, it led to events where there was a 1v1 between Jacen and Luke, and each one of them led to Luke being beaten by Jacen, with different methods involved. Jacen's potential should be equal to Anakin.

Luke >> Jacen. No way they have the same potential. Caedus did reach his full potential I'd say or near it.

@darthjarjar said:

My point is that it's like strong as metal.

Uhh... I'm not sure if that is strong as metal, but Windu did analyze it with Shatterpoint, found a weakness in the glass, and used TK to shatter it. But that is my point- he knows Shatterpoint in TCW.

Shatterpoint is finding a weakness.

EXACTLY. He found a WEAKNESS in the glass, then proceeded to break it. What I'm trying to explain is that he still possesses his most esoteric Force ability and can still use it even if we disregard the EU.

I'm pretty sure you can break the glass with plain old TK :/

Well yes, even Barriss Offee has done it, but I'm pretty sure that glass was not as durable, but anyways, she did not use Shatterpoint. Mace did, and he could use it in battle to find an opponent's weakness.

Ok, I get what you mean.

I'm not exaggerating,

To an extent, you are. Vitiate is very overrated, however: most of his feats are not in real battle scenarios, and most of them have rituals/prep surrounding them. Draining life or any of those feats Vitiate have require prep and are labor-intensive.

I agree that Vitiate is overrated, but if you use Mace with only TCW feats than Mace gets crapped on.

if we go to TCW Windu feats then he does mash Windu like an ant.

He still has the accolades of being second only to Yoda (meaning he is ahead of TCW Anakin and Obi-Wan), so no, he is not getting mashed like an ant by someone considerably below Yoda (or ROTS Sidious, for that matter.)

I don't think EU Windu is fast enough that Vitiate would just stand there waiting to get cut up.

If the starting distance is favorable. Put them 6 yards away from each other, Vitiate is liquid. He is low-level in dueling and speed. He relies pathetically on the Force. And most of his feats occur with prep/amps/rituals/outside help.

True with his feats.

EU Windu > Revan in lightsabers.

Being basically above Kenobi and Anakin even as of late TCW basically puts TCW Windu ahead of Revan. EU Windu is that much above Revan.

You don't have to be as skilled in lightsaber combat to win.

Btw Revan still beat Malak twice :P

Through speed and Force power, not skill.

Exactly, you don't need as much skill if you're naturally stronger in the force. Thus he can keep up with Windu and beat him.

Malak might be more skilled,

He was outright stated to be so.

Yes, but he still isn't a match for Revan, who's faster and more powerful than him, thus Mace hardly has an advantage.

Force ability plays a HUGE part in lightsaber combat.

Yes, but Mace>Malak.

Yes, but Revan was not even at his peak then.

You don't have to be as skilled as someone to beat him if you're faster than him.

Well, Revan is faster than Windu but not by a lot. And yes, skill>speed. If you're only a shade faster than your opponent and are one tier below them, you'll get mashed into oblivion. Speed, if not by big margins, is not that much of a game-changer. And Mace is better than Malak in most if not all relevant categories when it comes to a fight.

Revan has better force feats than Windu can dream of. He's tiers above Mace in terms of force ability. Vaapad doesn't count.

Second to Yoda doesn't mean Exar Kun isn't a equal or at least comparable to Mace.

Being second to Yoda means that he is above TCW Anakin and Kenobi; the former has given Dooku, someone considerably above Kun as a duelist, serious grief, and Kenobi has beaten Asajj Ventress, and held his own expertly against Grievous.

I don't see the logic.

Given that Anakin or Kenobi>Kun as duelists, and Mace is above them, and Mace has accolades that put him soundly above Kun.\

Under what assumption is Kenobi better than Kun?

If Mace is amped, yes.

If Mace is amped, he blitzes Kun in no more than three seconds. End. Kun is overrated. Most ancient Sith are overrated. TCW is lowballed.

Mace would win but it would take more like 30 seconds instead of 3. Some ancient Sith are overrated (Exar Kun amped himself), but TCW is usually a piece of crap in terms of feats.

He's Dooku level without it, or maybe even slightly below.

Dooku is leaps and bounds above Kun. That is more than enough to put Mace considerably above Kun in skill.

TCW Mace gets stomped for sure against any EU top tier Sith.

No, he doesn't. EU top tier Sith would be Sidious, Plagueis, Caedus who would beat Mace quickly. Vitiate is an overrated Force-reliant old man that does not even know how to duel, Revan is below Malak, and Kun can't even beat Ulic-Qel Droma.

Vitiate doesn't need to duel, he has the force. Kun and Ulic were the Obi-Wan and Anakin of their day, and Kun is stated to be the superior (I think?).

• This makes it so that the feats that the Jedi do in TCW <<<<< Legends and Comics.

But TCW is more accurate. And in Dark Disciple, Vos actually beats Dooku, which is considerably above his EU version that gets murked all the time by Sora Bulq and struggles to beat Tol Skorr.

If you're talking about G-Canon.

I'm talking about those Jedi are closer to their depiction in the movies; Movies>EU or anything else. If TCW is closer to the movies, TCW>EU in accurate Jedi portrayal.

Yea, so all Legends fans who enjoyed insane feats in EU get pissed off with the pathetic showings in TCW.

I wasn't talking about Order 66

OK. That was kind of an exception; Sidious was clouding their vision, and the clones attacked most of them behind their backs (I know Ki-Adi-Mundi lost to five clones, but those clones have a tactic of only firing at the Jedi's chest, which constricts their movements, forces the Jedi to move awkwardly and not be able to deflect all the bolts. Clones are smarter than people give them credit for.

but if you count Legends, we read incredible feats.

In TCW, we have the Sith defeating the Jedi often in combat; Sith>Jedi, so that is accurate. In the EU, we see people such as Ventress stalemating Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi, while in Canon she handed Luminara her arse, disarmed Kenobi, and Canon Vos schools EU Vos.

Sidious in canon > Dooku in Legends probably

@darthjarjar said:

Obi-Wan beat Opress due to his insight and experience. He was smarter, not more powerful. He was weak compared to Opress in natural talent with the force.

Yeah, Opress>Kenobi in the Force, but Kenobi is a superior duelist. He only beat Opress due to kicking him nine times while amped, but in the end he would due to his superior skill and experience.

But, Savage is quite a match for Kenobi... he definitely has a shot at eviscerating the Jedi's defenses...

1:39-1:49 Savage, with only one blade (we have never seen him engage in a duel with one blade aside from this) DISARMS Kenobi, not through sheer brutality or strength, but skill. And Kenobi really wasn't caught off guard. He had no time to prepare, but Savage gave him a second or two before attacking.

It took him longer to beat Barriss (who isn't really that impressive besides contending with Anakin.

Barriss is older than most Padawans, so she's more experienced. By this point, she managed to sneak in behind Ventress and knock the assassin out, and beat Ahsoka (yes, it was more of a trap than an actual fight) but that speaks to her knowledge and how she might have done something to Anakin. Because Anakin was enraged, but he couldn't harm Barriss. So those two factors might have caused a struggle in Anakin, and made him more rash and sloppy, which played into Barriss's hand, essentialy. But when she left the Temple halls and retreated into the garden, Anakin disarmed and ragdolled her quite quickly. True, she did send herself out in a suicidal move against Anakin after the Temple Guards surrounded her, but Anakin did beat her quite noticeably.

(Btw that's not glass, it's duraglass right?

It's on an AT-TE, a powerful war machine of the Republic, so I'd say it's safe to bet it's pretty tough glass. But that isn't my point. My point is that Mace used Shatterpoint to find a weakness in the glass, and then break it.

My point is that it's like strong as metal.

And isn't that basically force shattering?

No, it's Shatterpoint. You do know what I am talking about, right?

Yes I do.

Any experienced Jedi could do that.

Shatterpoint? No, Windu is basically the only one that can. Cade Skywalker can also do it, but he's not from the PT era.

Shatterpoint is finding a weakness. I'm pretty sure you can break the glass with plain old TK :/

DE Luke isn't going to get instantly killed by DE Sidious

No, but Sidious has beat him pretty decisively- and quickly.

The only time Luke actually beat Sidious, he was being amped by Leia.

and neither would EU Windu (if he's amped).

Yes, you're right- IF he's amped. If not, then he dies hard. ROTS Sidious has been shown to be able to blitz a non-amped Windu; ROTJ Sidious>ROTS Sidious, DE Sidious>ROTJ Sidious>ROTS Sidious.

Vitiate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TCW Mace Windu

Now, don't exaggerate; while Vitiate is very capable with the Force, and is powerful enough to beat Windu solely with it, would not just roflstompkilllolwuttrollthrow Windu. As I have shown, TCW Mace Windu is fast, and has very good Telekinesis. And if Mace gets in close, or the starting distance, is, say, 5 meters or something, in close quarters combat, Windu would beat Vitiate with H2H or lightsaber before Vitiate can unleash hell on Mace.

I'm not exaggerating, if we go to TCW Windu feats then he does mash Windu like an ant. I don't think EU Windu is fast enough that Vitiate would just stand there waiting to get cut up.

The sabers is debatable

Debatable if Revan lasts more than two minutes, basically. He has been stated to be <Malak as a duelist, and Malak is good but he's not anything to be in awe of, and Revan focuses much more on power, where he comfortably beats Mace, like Vitiate, because of his esoteric powers, because basic powers are something at which Mace excels.

TCW Mace Windu. EU Windu > Revan in lightsabers. Btw Revan still beat Malak twice :P Malak might be more skilled, but Revan is faster because of his force potential. Force ability plays a HUGE part in lightsaber combat. You don't have to be as skilled as someone to beat him if you're faster than him.

but it's not going to come down to that. If this is TCW Mace then Revan stomps him.

• Like Vitiate; if it's close quarters combat, Mace might overwhelm Revan and prevent the man from unleashing hell with the Force. Without getting amped (I don't think he can do this because although Revan draws the dark side, he also draws in the light which might cancel out Mace's Vaapad, though this is just speculation). Mace amped >>> Mace without amp. Mace really isn't that far above people like Kit Fisto. Windu could only win if he was amped like he was against Sidious, which he won't be.
• TCW Mace gets beaten rather decisively, but in mid-difficulty fights, not stomps. Mace still has the accolades, and his Force/H2H feats are impressive.

Much better duelist?

Yup. He is second only to Yoda as of TCW, as per George Lucas and Nick Gillard. Kun stalemating Qel-Droma pre prime is hardly impressive, and he never beat Vodo Baas due to skill; he cracked the wooden staff and left the Jedi disarmed. He, like the other guys you mentioned, focuses mainly on Force power, but is inferior to Revan and Vitiate. So, even if Kun brings his powers to bear, Mace wins.

Second to Yoda doesn't mean Exar Kun isn't a equal or at least comparable to Mace. I don't see the logic.

Even if this is EU Exar Kun's skill isn't to be low-balled.

It's still noticeably inferior to Mace's own. If Mace is amped, yes. He's Dooku level without it, or maybe even slightly below.

TCW Mace gets stomped.

Only if the circumstances, such as starting distance, favor Kun. Even 40 meters away, Mace could probably win and beat Kun soundly in a duel.

TCW Mace gets stomped for sure against any EU top tier Sith. Legends Mace is another matter of course.

TCW is a kids show.

• And? What's the problem with kids seeing Jedi cut down droids, which are not living things, but machines designed to kill?
• Kids would like to see the good guys beat the bad guys. So, no. That's a lame excuse to bash TCW just because it doesn't stupidly overpower characters such as OCW.
• This makes it so that the feats that the Jedi do in TCW <<<<< Legends and Comics.

Also it was under GL's supervision.

Which only depicts characters more accurately. If you're talking about G-Canon.

The Jedi in GL's universe are so much weaker than Legends.

Just because Order 66 happened in GL's movie, it is not to discredit Jedi; they were caught off-guard. Also, clones were highly trained soldiers bred for war. Just because in Legends they have Ki-Adi-Mundi stalemate Ventress when Asajj should be his superior; Mace slaughter thousands of B2 Battle Droids unarmed, Plo stalemate Ventress with one arm doesn't mean the OFFICIAL and ORIGINAL Jedi are weak. The other ones are sometimes exaggerated. Sith should consistently beat Jedi; not the contrary.

I wasn't talking about Order 66 but I agree. I didn't mean the characters were weak, it depends which universe and version you're talking about. TCW is more aligned to the films, but if you count Legends, we read incredible feats.

@teamfingolfin: @greysentinel365: @amethystgravity: @richard96: @azronger: @kiadisandwich: @wollfmyth209: @thesithmaster: Thank you all very much. I was careful to use the word "probably" when I mentioned whether this would be my last blog or not; that's because I'm considering splitting my Dooku RT into two threads, so I'd have to publish another blog.

It has to do with all of the things that makes Anakin so deadly as a fighter: his strength, his speed, his skill, his raw power. And where does Dooku call Anakin "a droideka with a lightsaber"?

His strength and skill were advantages. However I'm not sure if he's more skilled. He was in rage at that point and his potential may have played a point there. I haven't read that novel for a really long time but I believe I remember in the chapter where they fought Dooku thinks that to himself. So wait, you're quitting ComicVine? D=

@richard96 said:

Man I got wrong ! I wanted to say Dooku <= yoda . Sorry.

Oh, ok. No worries.

Maybe the quote can exclude yoda ,

It definitely needs to, if it wants to be truthful. But, it's just Yoda that's faster (from the Jedi).

but it includes all the other masters .

Fair enough.

Anakin is > everyone but yoda and sidius by the time of rots

Yes, I do agree with this. He is only above people like Windu and Dooku by a slight margin, above people like Maul for a small margin, but yeah. If you count people from the entire Clone Wars era, then Talzin also is above ROTS Anakin. But I agree with this. Dead people don't count.

@darthjarjar said:

I meant to say the OCW sorry.

Oh, ok. It's not even a full-fledged TV series, it is simply a micro-series. It's only, like two hours and fifteen minutes long (the entire series.)

I don't think they overpowered Ventress in the TCW

They did when she choked both Anakin and Obi-Wan on the Separatist flagship. And when she fought Grievous on Dathomir. But there are in-universe circumstances for these two instances, however. She was rage amped when she choked the pair, and she was being amped by the energies of Dathomir, which is a Dark Side Nexus, and especially helpful to natives (mostly Nightsisters.) In even ground, with Legends included, she's been shown to be inferior to Grievous.

(Opress was a walking amp).

In the beginning, yes, when he choked Dooku and Ventress, and fought Anakin and Obi-Wan. But he was rage amped in these two instances (he wasn't in his first fight against the duo) and the pair was caught off guard when choked. But after Season 3, he stopped being a "walking amp" after Maul, Kenobi and Sidious beat him, the latter of which killed Opress.

Obi-Wan beat Opress due to his insight and experience. He was smarter, not more powerful. He was weak compared to Opress in natural talent with the force.

I think they under powered Anakin,

Uh, OK. He still has shown parity with Ventress mid-TCW, has shown clear superiority to the Nightsister towards the end of the show, was shown to be a great Jedi, above most masters, and ragdolled Barriss Offee effortlessly whilst not trying to kill her. In the EU, his showings are good but not that above of Ventress's. In the EU, Rage Amped Padawan Anakin was effortlessly disarmed by a holding back A'Sharad Hett, he was losing to Ventress six months before ROTS, only winning due to a combo of Rage Amp and abuse of environment, stalemated Asajj five months before ROTS when she had immediately left a bacta tank where she had been healing for a month, was pushed by Ventress while he had Obi-Wan for help, so he's not that bad.

It took him longer to beat Barriss (who isn't really that impressive besides contending with Anakin.

You're getting the wrong picture. They OVERPOWERED him in OCW. In OCW, they hype up fan favorites, Mace Windu being one of those. And, of course, they UNDERPOWER the opponents of fan-favorites (Durge vs Obi-Wan, Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti vs Grievous, B2 Super Battle Droids vs Mace.) True, it was Grievous's first appearance in SW lore, but it had to be an epic introduction. Also, here are some videos of TCW Mace:

Mace using Shatterpoint to break a glass (0:20) and, most impressive, Force pushing an AT-TE.

I forgot about that AT-TE (Btw that's not glass, it's duraglass right? And isn't that basically force shattering? Any experienced Jedi could do that.

Here's Mace throwing two clones across an entire bridge, collapsing a giant door on a tank, and annihilating some more droids.

Here's Mace stalemating Talzin, a legitimate threat to Lord Sidious.

Here's Mace stomping a bunch of cult members with ease, and then expertly holding his own unarmed against two Gundarks. One Gundark has owned Anakin, and Obi-Wan nearly was killed by some Gundarks (they were probably young, since Ani and Obi talk about a nest.)

and Jedi in general.

Ima-Gun Di briefly deflected omnidirectional blaster fire, Anakin and Luminara dealt with lots of droids, Ki-Adi-Mundi expertly carved his way through Geonosian troops, Ahsoka managed to kill three MagnaGuards just after graduating to Padawan, so Jedi do some impressive stuff.

I mean, Mace Windu would get instantly killed by DE Sidious,

This applies to everyone but Yoda (who DE Sidious would beat with mid-diff) and GM Luke (the only non-god, such as the Ones, that can beat DE Sidious.)

DE Luke isn't going to get instantly killed by DE Sidious and neither would EU Windu (if he's amped).

Vitiate,

Not instantly, but Vitiate is way too good in the Force. Vitiate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TCW Mace Windu

Revan,

Mace would put up an excellent fight, and he'd definitely win in a sabers only contest. The sabers is debatable but it's not going to come down to that. If this is TCW Mace then Revan stomps him.

and Exar Kun

Windu's a much better duelist than Kun, and unless Kun is given a starting distance of 100/200m, Mace wins very solidly. Much better duelist? Even if this is EU Exar Kun's skill isn't to be low-balled. TCW Mace gets stomped.

TCW is a kids show. Also it was under GL's supervision. The Jedi in GL's universe are so much weaker than Legends.

@darthjarjar said:

I meant more in relation to droids.

Well, if an unarmed Jedi is surrounded by droids, of course they surrender. Even if they're coming right in front, 50 Droids vs One Unarmed Jedi would normally have the Jedi die. Of course, Mace Windu, in the exaggerated OCW...

Here, Mace destroys lots of them, but for a few reasons:

• It's Mace Windu, the third (arguably second) best Jedi of his day:
• OCW hypes fan-favorites, examples being Obi-Wan, GG and Mace
• The Force wave only knocked back twelve initally, the others fell in a domino effect. And Mace had his weapon for some of the time.

Which it would be cool if they could do that in the TCW

He's so much faster than them though.

But Sing is a much better shot and much better trained. She took out eight Senate Guards with that weapon.

Anakin is still much faster and has force precog (not saying it works all time but it should work against non- force sensitives.

I still think TCW makes characters weak.

Yeah, but sometimes they overpowered Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress.

In the TCW cartoon movie we see Anakin do way better stuff WHEN HE WAS A PADAWAN.

In The Clone Wars Movie, Anakin is a Knight, hence why he takes Ahsoka as a Padawan. And in the deleted scene, Anakin was about to be killed by Ventress.

I meant to say the OCW sorry. I don't think they overpowered Ventress in the TCW (Opress was a walking amp). I think they under powered Anakin, Mace Windu, and Jedi in general. I mean, Mace Windu would get instantly killed by DE Sidious, Vitiate, Revan, and Exar Kun if he's TCW. It's so disappointing for me.

@darthjarjar said:

Yea, toward the later seasons they upped his power a bit.

When it comes to Anakin, a matter of days can spell quite a bit of growth.

I am happy with that choke on Ventress

Yes, it was fair, especially after this:

This one happened in a deleted scene from TCW Movie, but still:

Ventress was under a rage amp here, but still worthy of note:

This one didn't actually happen in TCW, but it happened in a UK Magazine that told what happened in between TCW episodes, so it semi-counts.

And, of course, I could use OCW, in which Ventress pushes Anakin once, and floors him by throwing rocks+logs at him, but there, Anakin also powered through a push by Ventress and succesfully retaliated.

Gets electrocuted by a walking fish in season 1.

After being disarmed and fighting two blaster-wielding assailants and dodging blaster bolts.

COME ON, where's that force sense and speed man!

Force-sensitives still get cheap-shotted.

True, but it's still disappointing for me.

I just hate how they keep surrendering when they don't have their lightsabers.

Obi-Wan fought Bane and Eval without lightsabers here:

I meant more in relation to droids. I know of one where Obi-Wan used the force, but this happens a lot less than it should. It's WIS

In the same episode where Anakin got electrocuted by the fish, he attempts to fight a Weequay and Aurra Sing with a blaster he stole from the former, but Sing disarmed him by shooting his hand.

He's so much faster than them though. I still think TCW makes characters weak. In the TCW cartoon movie we see Anakin do way better stuff WHEN HE WAS A PADAWAN.

@darthjarjar:

1. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. And, well, common sense. Anakin's infinitely more powerful than Obi-Wan.

2. Caedus was near-blitzed by Luke and proceeded to be stomped again in a few moves despite the circumstances favouring him enormously. I analysed it here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-caedus-vs-count-dooku-read-op-750656/#js-message-47

Yes, Anakin would do much better in terms of actual blade-to-blade combat. Caedus relied entirely on his pain tolerance.

I still disagree with you on some things but I'm a big fan of yours. I love how you school fanboys.