@daxnovu:
Well, glad you asked a question (an interesting one) that totally avoids any form of conflict with your current reincarnation.
- Sigh.
Metafictional feats is technically sometimes a form of reality warping. And Higher-Dimensional transcendence. Mxyzptlk for example sees the physical Multiverse as like Comic Book panels, though he is a 5-Dimensional Imp.
-I think there is a huge discrepancy in defining terminology. If they leave the comic and enter a metaconceptual space, reality warping is no longer viable. It isn't a form of reality warping, it is meta. Two narratives battling each other are not two reality warpers fighting each other with physics.
This is because if you are of a higher dimension than something below you, you are typically infinitely more powerful. Morrison followed this rule as you can see and so many writers from Manga, Anime and Novels follow this rule of Dimensional tiering hierarchy.
- I agree with this, which is why he showed Limbo housing every single dimension in DC ever to exist, even things lost to retcon as a 1D flat plane of existence to the thought robot and Nil space.
Oblivion sees the Marvel Multiverse and all of Time and Space as fictional to him. Empty Hand on the other hand saw DC's Multiverse as fictional to him because he reads the Multiverse like a book. To both of these gentle cosmics, they both see the Multiverse of something of unimportance for some reason. Or at least something that is inconsequential to their existence.
- Agreed. However, one of them as per your own words was a meta character and the other is not. Oblivion sees it as fiction, you said that you agreed or may have agreed with Grants statements that Empty Hand is the combined collective minds of all comic readers. Oblivion inside of Marvels multiverse is not the same. He is just a cosmic being that resides as the outter box for Eternity. He is not meta. Empty Hand actually is.
That is why I compared Oblivion and Empty Hand.
- Yes, but again, you said one of them is meta and one isnt, but still compared them. Your comparison was in their view on things, not their power sets. Their power sets are vastly different. One is the collective minds of readers, the other like many other characters in fiction knows someone is reading and watching him (us) which isnt at all impressive.
However, there are different levels of being Metafictional. If you recall the Re: Creators Anime. Altair literally saved her own writer from suicide and created a Universe where she writes her own writer writing her.
- This is exactly the same thing as Grant Morrisons Hyperloop explanation. The Author isn't the creator. The Creator's creation is. The Author wrote the creator, who created the author. We are a fiction to Gods. Who in turn wrote us. And those Gods were written by us in some Multiverses. Its a loop. And Grant's worlds have the same feats (cas) for example and the Writer.
It'd be like if Morrison wanted to commit suicide, and Mandrakk saved him inside a comic.
-Consider that DC comics stated that Mandrakk is the editor of the meta DC comics...if Mandrakk wanted to, he should as per the story be able to do so and go save and talk to the "real world analogue" of Grant in the Orrery, who resides on Earth 33. That isn't a special feat either, considering Monitors sent Nix there and many of the events of the Ultracomics were the thoughts processing around him from his apartment in Earth 33.
Nobody would say that just because Altair is Meta, that she would defeat Living Tribunal who you agree is Multiversal. Unless you are LPercepts who literally argued that Meta-Universe level characters would beat someone like Beyonder and that's ridiculous.
- No. I am not arguing that. I am also not going to take the Soratougmia route and insist that the Presence is Darkseid and that Darkseid always commanded the Presence and the Raidant. And that Darkseid > Lucifer and Michael (no really, he said that and he was a serious)
In turn, if you recall that reply, I stated that there are different levels to interpret and estimate how powerful Empty Hand would be. This is because that although he sees DC as nothing as Oblivion sees Marvel's Space Time as nothing. DC's Multiverse however is very small when you compared to Marvel.
- I agree. Except I see nothing to denote that Oblivion is meta. I see nothing to say that he is anything exterior of the comic itself. Him speaking to us is nothing special. Comic characters monologue to readers all the time and that isn't a grandious feat at all. What is? When the comic states and showcases vsbattle boards and internet comments about how meta Empty hand and Gentry are right inside their own comic book and that they are the collective consciousness of all comic readers combined into one character. That meta obliterates Oblivion all day long.
So while I do still see Empty Hand as meta at the time. My understanding of Meta is not the same as yours.
- I agree with that and I am fine with it. I'm merely asking what your reasoning was and finally I have answers. And I am thankful for it. You didn't give me a "STOMP" and nothing else. So, I really appreciate that and I won't push further. So long as I have something to understand in your brain, I dont feel the need to push or investigate more into your reasoning and I am just fine moving past it. You and I have differentials in opinions on what Meta constitutes. And it is just that simple.
You can be metafictional, that doesn't mean you will win just any fight against non-metafictional characters. You need feats to back it up at that scale.
- Agreed.
At least nowadays. Marvel's Multiverse expands infinitely and instantly. There are infinite universes basically creating new possibilities every moment. This is a Quantum Multiverse.
- Also agreed. As mentioned, the dimensional argument breaks down when you have neigh infinite-D inside of Limbo and the Orrery appear as a flat plane 1D experience to a purely conceptual being made entirely of thought. There are no physics in limbo. They said it. So to wrap ones head about the idea that dimensionality stops at the end of the multiverse and they down converted all the heroes to get to limbo, and then ultraman and superman were converted yet further to get to Nil into the Cosmic Armor...and at that point there were entirely made of Thought and nothing more because Physics and Dimensions and reality warping held no meaning what so ever (literally stated 4 or 5 times)...then you see that thing somehow anchor downward into a 1D "looking" thing in a linear movement window where it has no time to begin with...
When you argue physics or dimensions at all in Nil, that is where we all lose, because the comic says its far past the understanding of such. Which is what I've been trying to get at for the last month or so.
Now considering CAS is stated to be the editor DC Comics in a meta sense of the word, that trumps all the feats and dimensions, the reality warping and so on that takes place inside the narrative. Infinite reality warping doesnt matter when you edit the story and have total authority over the publication itself, ignore the author and all the other writers and have the actual publications print authority. That is what Mandrakk and CAS are. They represent the Greed of DC executives. Monitors represented the Authors trying to Get Supermans story of heroic nature to come out and fight the Greedy bastards who own DC Comics who are editing things that Grant was having issues with) Allegory.
The undisputed fact of the matter is that CAS is the Editor and looked upon unlimited dimensions as a flat plane, and did it in a place without time or scale,"without form and meaning" is what they said in Final Crisis. Beyond that, it has a statement of "infinite adaptation" and also "able to counter any future threat".
Nothing else on this list has that. Nothing else is Meta and can dictate meta concepts. And nothing else on this list has two statements of pure, raw, 100% literal infinite power. CAS wins this.
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