Cal Kestis Respect Thread

Cal Kestis, the protagonist of "Jedi: Fallen Order" has proven himself to be one of the most impressive young Jedi in LucasFilm's revised Canon, I think it's time he gets his due respect.

Lightsaber Duels-

Cal, being less skilled in the Force that he had been during his training, briefly contends with the Second Sister, though he is ultimately defeated rather quickly.

Cal vs Second Sister: Round 1

After slowly growing and becoming stronger, Cal duels the Second Sister once again, briefly contending with her, but ultimately being overpowered.

Cal vs Second Sister: Round 2

During his second visit to Kashyyyk, Cal duels and defeats the Ninth Sister.

Cal vs Ninth Sister

The Ninth Sister is “an imposing and dangerous Dowutin Inquisitor."

”A former Jedi, the Ninth Sister is an imposing and dangerous Dowutin Inquisitor. Her mastery of the Force is further enhanced by an extraordinarily natural empathic ability to read minds. While less agile than other Inquisitors, she utilizes her strength and wits to gain an advantage.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, the Ninth Sister Tactical Guide Entry

The Ninth Sister was one of two Inquisitors to survive an attack by a group of Purge Troopers. These troopers had been ordered to “Execute Order 66”, and turned on the Inquisitors who were present with them. The Purge Troopers had succeeded in killing at least one.

Kestis, with the aid of a Nightsister named Merrin, defeats Taron Malicos, a fallen Dark Jedi Master who had taken command of the Nightbrother clan.

Cal vs Taron Malicos

It’s stated that the fight “finally tipped” when Merrin joined the fray towards the end of the duel. Implying that Cal was matching the Jedi Master for the duel’s duration prior to that.

Malicos is said to have been a “formidable Jedi General”, and is generally implied to be a powerful Jedi and a skilled combatant.

Once a formidable Jedi General, Malicos escaped the horrific purge of Order 66. A trained motivator and cunning tactician, he maintains a composed demeanor during combat, but will strike with ferocity and deliberate precision. Full of surprises, he utilizes his mastery of the Force with an extended assault ,or as a precursor to his lightsaber attack, including a combination of dual-blades.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Taron Malicos Tactical Guide-Jedi: Fallen Order, “The Stranger” databank entry 6.

The Nightbrothers were chasing someone through the swamp. Someone they feared.

The Nightbrothers found someone dangerous. An outsider. Whoever it was they took them to their leader.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, “The Stranger” databank entry 7.

A new leader came to control the Nightbrothers. A powerful stranger.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, “The Stranger” databank entry 9.

Cal fights the Second Sister once more, this time managing to disarm her. She escapes due to Cal’s receiving a vision after taking her lightsaber.

Cal vs Second Sister: Round 3

Cal duels the Second Sister one final time. This time, he manages to defeat her once and for all.

Cal vs Second Sister: Final Round

Note that the Second Sister is stated to be one of the deadliest Inquisitors.

Ambitious and cruel, the Second Sister is one of the deadliest members of the Imperial Inquisition. She relishes hunting down both Force-sensitives and political dissidents for the Empire. Although she is an expert lightsaber duelist and adept with the dark side of the Force, the Second Sister's greatest weapon is her brilliant ability to deduce and predict the behavior of her prey., Second Sister Databank Entry

Other Combat Showings:

Kestis defeats an AT-ST.

Cal vs Zeffo AT-ST

Cal defeats two AT-STs. This fight is a required fight. The Mantis’ entrance ramp stays closed until the walkers are dealt with, meaning the feat is valid.

Cal vs Ilum AT-ST's

Cal destroys an Imperial Security droid.

Cal vs Security Droid

Cal fights an entire room full of Security Droids. This fight is a required fight, as the door which needs to be sliced to exit cannot be sliced until all enemies are dealt with. Meaning the feat is valid.

Cal vs Security Droids

These droids are “formidable” and “specialized in close combat.”

Imperial Security Droids, also known as KX-Series Security Droids, are commonly used in service to the Galactic Empire. Formidable and specialized in close combat, these droids employ a combination of brute strength and rugged durability to capture and incapacitate enemies. They are equipped with a full comm relay, scramblers, and tactical programming.

-Jedi Fallen Order, Security Droid Tactical Guide Entry

Cal Kestis fights a gargantuan Chirodactyl called Gorgara.

Cal vs Gorgara

Some information on Gorgara:

Local legends tell of a fearsome winged beast that scours the deepest crags for prey, latches onto its target with a fierce grip, and soars to dizzying heights on powerful wings. This apex predator is known as Gorgara "the winged daemon of the canyon," and she will deceive her prey before attacking., Gorgara the Chirodactyl Databank Entry

The apex predator known as Gorgara “the winged daemon of the canyon”, employs trickery and versatility while soaring to dizzying heights and scouring the deepest crags. A thick, armored hide makes her resistant to straight-on attacks, but certain areas may become vulnerable during combat. She is known to latch onto prey with a fierce grip, hoisting them into the air on her powerful wings.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Gorgara Tactical Guide

It is revealed that the Night Brother clan on Dathomir fight the Gorgara as a rite of passage. With those who survived the encounter being deemed worthy.

Cal defeats a Purge Trooper in single combat.

Cal vs Purge Trooper

Cal (presumably) fights numerous other Purge Troopers during the duration of the story. While it’s up to player choice to actually fight them, I assume that any enemies Cal can fight, he does fight.Purge Troopers are trained specifically to fight Jedi, and work under the direct command of the Inquisitors.

Purge troopers are a specialized class of Imperial soldier trained and equipped to assist the Inquisitors in hunting down Jedi and other Force-sensitive beings who threaten the Empire. Borrowing tactics and methods first used by the Republic soldiers that accompanied Jedi generals during the Clone Wars, this elite group is few in number and keeps out of the public eye. Most citizens of the Empire are unaware they even exist., Purge Troopers Databank Entry

The Menacing Purge Trooper serves the Galactic Empire’s Inquisitorius Program to hunt down members of the treasonous Jedi Order. A specialized class of Imperial soldier trained and equipped with a variety of weapons and tactics, this elite grew is few in number and keeps out of the public eye. Most citizens of the Empire are unaware that they even exist. Of the Purge Trooper ranks, many are trained in melee combat using an Electrobaton, proving an agile and deadly nemesis.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Electrobaton Purge Trooper Tactical Guide entry.

Hunters of the Imperial Inquisitorius, the Purge Troopers track survivors of the treasonous Jedi Order. Operating in the shadows, they scour the galaxy to assist Inquisitors in their sinister mission. This specialized class is skilled primarily with the electrostaff, providing a lethal challenge to any lightsaber-wielding foe. Their agility and penchant for vengeance are displayed through a deadly combination of intuitive counterattacks and trained maneuvering.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Electrostaff Purge Trooper Tactical Guide Entry

Agents of the Inquisitorius, the Purge Troopers are charged by the Empire to hunt down survivors of the treasonous Jedi Order. Operating in the shadows, their clandestine mandate is largely unknown, even among the Imperial ranks, as they support Inquisitors across the galaxy. This specialized class is trained and equipped with a variety of weapons and tactics, but primarily attack with blasters and shock grenades.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Purge Trooper Commander Tactical Guide Entry

Dreaded disciples of the Imperial Inquisitorius, the Purge Trooper hunts survivors of the treasonous Jedi Order. Combing the corners of the galaxy, this specialized operative is highly skilled in melee combat, employing an Electrohammer as their primary weapon. While slow to strike, their Electrohammer emits a deadly shockwave that stuns, inflicts heavy damage on a target but takes time to recharge. These troopers wear bulky armor capable of withstanding lightsaber attacks.

-Jedi Fallen Order, Electrohammer Purge Trooper Tactical Guide Entry

Cal defeats an Albino Wyyyschokk on Kashyyyk and a Nydak Alpha on Dathomir.

Nydak Alpha

Albino Wyyyschokk

The Wyyychokk is capable of “super speed”, and is implied to be more deadly than its relatives, which are apex predators in the Shadowlands. The Nydak Alpha’s hide and bones on its arms are so strong that they can’t be severed. Presumably in reference to Cal’s lightsaber.

Force Powers

Force Slow:

Cal Kestis is skilled in the use of Force Slow. As a note, while this may be a game mechanic, I felt it worthy to point out that the only enemy in the game that cannot be slowed is Darth Vader, which could imply that Vader is the only character in the game powerful enough to resist Cal's use of this power.

.Cal can use the Force to slow objects and sentients.

-Jedi: Fallen Order, Abilities “Slow”

Stops his friend from falling into the mouth of an Ibdis Maw.

Cal uses the Force to slow a large cyclone. Freezing the twister itself, as well as the rocks flying inside of it. (14:58 to 15:05). Note that it’s commented by Cal that the cyclone “crippled the Empire’s equipment” near to it. Given its off effects on technology, and the fact it’s used by a Force sensitive race to protect a tomb, it stands to reason that the cyclone may be Force induced.

The team at Respawn discusses Cal’s Force Slow ability. (32:18 to 32:55)

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Cal slows powerful, fast moving mining equipment.

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As with most Jedi, Cal is capable of utilizing telekinesis to pull or push targets.

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Cal rips a piece of machinery from its moorings while being Force Choked by Darth Vader.

Cal uses Force Pull on Gorgara

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Cal can push down walls and pillars.

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Cal Force Pushes the Second Sister on Bogano:

Lightsaber Throw:

Cal is able to use Lightsaber Throw.

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Strength & Speed:

Cal is, as mentioned before, able to defeat an Imperial Security Droid. These security droids have demonstrated considerable levels of speed.

For reference here, Imperial Security Droids, while not built specifically for combat, are still dangerous in a fight. The reprogrammed droid names K-2SO demonstrated high levels of speed and strength when combating Stormtroopers during the Battle of Scarif.

Cal, during a vision on Dathomir, breaks his lightsaber with his bare hands. Crushing the blade emitter.

Cal, by virtue of having kept pace with the Second Sister during their duel, should be as fast as the Inquisitor was. The Second Sister is seen easily dodging and deflecting blaster bolts. Also note that the Second Sister tends to speed around the arena during her multiple duels against Cal, further highlighting her speed.

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Wall Running:

Kestis' physical condition and connection to the Force allows him to easily run on walls. He does this many times throughout the game.

Technical Lightsaber Skill:

The Second Sister is able to tell that Cal has had formal training based on his stance.

"I recognize that stance. Perhaps you've had some training after all."

-Second Sister, Jedi Fallen Order.

Cal is skilled in the use of Jar-Kai.

By combining Cere and Jaro's hilts, Cal created a lightsaber that can be split in two.

-Split Saber, Jedi Fallen Order

Cal is skilled in the use of a lightsaber-staff, otherwise known as a double-bladed lightsaber.

After finding another lightsaber hilt during his journey, Cal can switch brtween a single and a double bladed lightsaber.

-Double-Bladed Lightsaber, Jedi Fallen Order

Note that double bladed lightsabers are implied to require “extensive training” and dexterity.

The Sith apprentice Darth Maul wielded a double-bladed lightsaber made by joining two hilts together end-to-end. Maul’s dexterity and extensive training allowed him to use his weapon as a single-bladed saber, or to activate both crimson blades and fight multiple opponents at once……

-Darth Maul’s Lightsaber, StarWars.Com Databank

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Start the Conversation

The Lord of the Rings: Sauron Respect Thread

I’ve noticed that the only decent RT for Sauron is the one on Reddit, and it only includes things from Tolkien’s original lore. So while the films and games may not necessarily be canon, I am going to add them to the thread, for debate purposes, and just for the sake of aggregating everything I can find. The thread may miss a lot of quotes, I don’t own the LOTR novels or the Silmarillion personally, so this thread will be composed purely by what I can find out on my own. If there is something important I’m missing, feel free to share it with me, and I’ll be sure to add it to the thread. As I do not have quotes for absolutely everything, I will provide links to wiki pages in some instances. These wiki pages are closely watched and maintained for accuracy, all information within “should” be accurate, as well as sourced.

I will also draw distinction between the three “canons”, anything from the films (LOTR or Hobbit film trilogies) will be labeled with the (FILM CANON) designation, anything from the “Shadow” game series will be designation with (GAME CANON).

Credit for the many quotes here goes to Reddit user Pimpathinor, as I pulled them from his Sauron RT on Reddit. Credit to the youtubers whose gameplay and film clips I used, and credit to the game developer and filmmakers who created the games and films seen here.

The original RT for Sauron can be found here, and credit for the quotes goes to the RT author:

Original RT

With that out of the way, respect Sauron, the Lord of the Rings, and Dark Lord of Mordor.

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Sauron is a Maiar, a powerful spirit being.

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

-The Silmarillion

As a Maiar, he is in the same order (same race, essentially) as the Valar.


"spirits whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree"

-The Silmarillion


Sauron is also stated directly by Tolkien as being of a “far higher order” than Gandalf or Sauruman. Gandalf’s abilities are detailed in the Respect Thread made for him on Reddit:

(GAME CANON) Though this applies to Tolkien’s original lore and the films as well. Sauron, as Dark Lord, is very likely to be more powerful in his full strength than a Balrog. For reference, Carnan thought of Tar-Goroth (a Balrog) as being a threat to virtually all of nature and green life. Carnan, despite being incredibly powerful in her own right, did not seem convinced she could defeat Tar-Goroth on her own.

(this video is all of Carnan’s cutscenes, it’s very long.)

Tar Goroth, a Balrog, is capable of rampaging across the world, and has defeated entire armies single handedly.

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Sauron is a capable shapeshifter, able to switch between numerous form, and relegating the power of each thing he becomes. In the form of a werewolf, he makes himself the strongest werewolf ever.

“Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world;

Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form;

And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon,”



(GAME CANON) Sauron is able to swap between his “true” form (the giant armor clad image of evil) and his “fair” form, which he used to deceive Celebrimbor into creating the Rings of Power.

(GAME CANON) Sauron switches between his true and fair forms during his battle with Celebrimbor.

Nature Control

Sauron seemingly manipulates the fires within Mt. Doom. He can also cause the volcano to erupt.

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Numenoreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom.

-The Silmarillion

Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles, before they should take root. Orodrúin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom.

-The Silmarillion

Turgon followed Túrin, but of his time it is chiefly remembered that two years ere his death, Sauron arose again, and declared himself openly; and he re-entered Mordor long prepared for him. Then Barad-dûr was raised once more, and Mount Doom burst into flame

-The Silmarillion

Sauron, prior to the invasion of Minas Tirith, creates a giant cloud to blot out the sun, allowing his armies of Orcs to move freely.

‘But the Sun has not risen, yet,’ said Merry.

‘No, and will not rise today, Master Holbytla. Nor ever again, one should think, under this cloud. ...

‘It comes from Mordor, lord,’ he said. ‘It began last night at sunset. From the hills in the Eastfold of your realm I saw it rise and creep across the sky, and all night as I rode it came behind eating up the stars. Now the great cloud hangs over all the land between here and the Mountains of Shadow; and it is deepening. War has already begun.

-Return of the King

The Fellowship of the Ring surmises that Sauron is the cause of the storms that forced them to go through Moria, rather than through the mountain pass as they’d originally planned. Gandalf, who knows much about Sauron and his abilities, seems to agree with this assessment of events.

‘I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,’ said Boromir. ‘They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.’

‘His arm has grown long indeed,’ said Gimli, ‘if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.’

‘His arm has grown long,’ said Gandalf.

-Fellowship of the Ring


Sauron tanks a strike from Eru Iluvitar, the Tolkien Mythos’ equivalent to the Judeo-Christian God, and creator of the universe in which LOTR takes place. This attack was able to destroy the island of Numenor, a relatively large island. While Sauron’s physical body WAS destroyed, he himself still survives the blow.

Eru Iluvitar:

he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible.

- The Silmarillion

Sauron casually tanks lightning cast down by the Valar. Keep in mind from earlier that the Valar are more powerful than the Maiar, which is what Sauron is. Meaning that, despite not being a Valar, Sauron is able to casually shrug off lightning that is meant to kill him, from beings that are supposed to be his superiors. Making Sauron, likely, more powerful than any Valar, save for his old master, Melkor/Morgoth.

Reference for who Melkor is:

Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would.

-The Silmarillion

Sorcery and Manipulation

Uses sorcery to capture a fortress.

Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment. He took Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond.

-The Silmarillion

Uses illusions for manipulation and deception.

On a time of autumn he came in the dusk of evening, and drawing near he saw as he thought a light at the window; and coming warily he looked within. There he saw Eilinel, and her face was worn with grief and hunger, and it seemed to him that he heard her voice lamenting that he had forsaken her. But even as he cried aloud the light was blown out in the wind; wolves howled, and on his shoulders he felt suddenly the heavy hands of Sauron's hunters. Thus Gorlim was ensnared; and taking him to their camp they tormented, seeking to learn the hidings of Barahir and all his ways. But nothing would Gorlim tell. Then they promised him that he should be released and restored to Eilinel, if he would yield; and being at last worn with pain, and yearning for his wife, he faltered. Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'

And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.

Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'

Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

Then Sauron laughed; and he mocked Gorlim, and revealed to him that he had only seen a phantom devised by wizardry to entrap him; for Eilinel was dead. 'Nonetheless I will grant thy prayer,' said Sauron; 'and thou shalt go to Eilinel, and be set free of my service.' Then he put him cruelly to death.

-The Silmarillion

Sauron teaches magical abilities to the Elves. (Game Canon)

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Sauron prefers manipulation over direct combat (though he is skilled in both) and when faced by a Numenorean army, Sauron CHOOSES to surrender, as a part of his plan.

And Sauron came. Even from his mighty tower of Barad-dûr he came, and made no offer of battle. For he perceived that the power and majesty of the Kings of the Sea surpassed all rumour of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them; and he saw not his time yet to work his will with the Dunedain. And he was crafty, well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not avail. Therefore he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazôn and smoothed his tongue; and men wondered, for all that he said seemed fair and wise.

- The Silmarillion

Sauron becomes advisor to his captor, and eventually serves as would be ruler.

Yet such was the cunning of his mind and mouth, and the strength of his hidden will, that ere three years had passed he had become closest to the secret counsels of the King; for flattery sweet as honey was ever on his tongue, and knowledge he had of many things yet unrevealed to Men. And seeing the favour that he had of their lord all the councillors began to fawn upon him, save one alone, Amandil lord of Andúnië.


Thus Ar-Pharazôn, King of the Land of the Star, grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth, though in truth Sauron ruled all from behind the throne.

-The Silmarillion

Sauron successfully deceives all of the elves in Middle-Earth, with the exceptions of Gil-galad and Elrond. This was a part of Sauron’s long plan to create the Rings of Power, which as seen in one of the videos above (as well as every other Tolkien related source) succeeded.

Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise. Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fairseeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship.

It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works.

-The Silmarillion

Sauron kept his armies of Orcs in check by the force of his will.

Their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in the holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

-The Silmarillion

Sauron defeats Finrod Felagund in a magic duel.

Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery.

-The Silmarillion

Sauron’s signaling the Witch King’s invasion of Gondor (which is presumably through magic) causes an earthquake.

At that moment the rock quivered and trembled beneath them. The great rumbling noise, louder than ever before, rolled in the ground and echoed in the mountains. Then with searing suddenness there came a great read flash. Far beyond the eastern mountains it leapt into the sky and splashed the lowering clouds with crimson. In that valley of shadow and cold deathly light it seemed unbearably violent and fierce. Peaks of stone and ridges like notched knives sprang out in staring black against the uprushing flame in Gorgoroth. Then came a great crack of thunder.

- Two Towers

Using the Palantir(s), a being can alter the will or dominate the minds of others who have another Palantir (game canon)

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Sauron shows Aragorn visions of a possible or false future via Palantir, causing Aragorn to recoil in fear.(Film Canon)Sauron shows Aragorn the future.

Sauron attempts to enter Pippin's mind through the Palantir and shows him visions of what Middle Earth will be should Sauron win, causing him to write on the floor in agony. While the Dark Lord ultimately fails to extract meaningful information from the hobbit, the experience leaves Pippin terrified. (Film Canon)

Sauron finds Pippin

Combat Superiority

(FILM CANON) Sauron casually annihilates dozens of elves and Gondorian soldiers during the final battle of the War of the Last Alliance.

(Start at 3:20 mark)

(FILM CANON) Sauron, in a weakened state, unable to take physical form, almost matches Lady Galadriel. Implying that his full power is far greater than the Lady’s.

(FILM CANON) The same weakened Sauron, using what seems to be a fraction of his power, defeats Gandalf in a brief contest of power.

(GAME CANON) Sauron defeats Celebrimbor and Eltariel in single combat, despite the Elf Lord and servant of Galadriel having Celebrimbor’s new Ring and Eltariel possessing the powerful "Light of Galadriel" which she used on numerous occasions to defeat the Nazgul, the New Ring is stated in the game as having equal power to the One Ring. Meaning Sauron is far more powerful than just his ring.

The One Ring

The One Ring is the key to ruling Middle-Earth, and is Sauron's greatest creation. (Game Canon)

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While Sauron wields the ring, all other rings of power, and their wearers, are bound to his will.

Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

- The Silmarillion

Even the greatest rings of power were dominated by the One.

Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

- The Silmarillion

After Sauron created the One Ring, the elves caught on and took theirs off. Sauron retaliated by attacking the elves and recovering his rings in the process, as well as murdering the ring maker, Celebrimbor. He gave his recovered rings to men and dwarves. The men under the influence of the rings would eventually become the Nazgul, Sauron’s greatest servants.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.


Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

- The Silmarillion

The One Ring is a corrupting force of evil, and is especially dangerous to more powerful beings, according to Elrond.

We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear… I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.

‘Nor will I,’ said Gandalf.

-Fellowship of the Ring

Even Galadriel, one of the mightiest beings in Middle-Earth, is evidently incapable of resisting the power of Sauron’s ring. Stating that under the Ring’s influence, she would rise a queen in place of a Dark Lord.

The Evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls… You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you would set up a Queen… All shall love me and despair!

- Fellowship of the Ring

Sauron is more powerful while wearing the One Ring (game canon):

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There’s probably a good deal that I’m missing, but I’ve seen people underrating Sauron lately, and decided he needed at least as good an RT as I could give him. If you have any other accolades or feats from any LOTR source, be it a game or Tolkien’s own works, please, tag me in the comments with the quote or clip, and I’ll add it to the thread.

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Underrated Sith Lords: Darth Revan

In this thread, I will endeavor to paint Darth Revan in a more fitting light. Most of us have him no higher than Darth Vader in terms of power, but I feel this is a gross lowball of what he really is.

Force Power and Comparisons to other Sith:

Kreia describes Revan as essentially being the most powerful Force user she’s ever encountered. Given she’s had hands on experience with the Dark Side monstrosity known as Darth Nihilus, this is EXTREMELY high praise. Note that I am NOT saying Darth Revan is more powerful than, or even equal to, Nihilus, only that, based on this statement, as well as the quote by Sion below, she must have held Revan in similar regard, in the sense that Revan, like Nihilus, was far more powerful than any other person she'd ever met.

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

"She (Kreia) clings to hope that perhaps she can train one as great as her first (Revan)."

―Darth Sion (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

Darth Revan’s mere presence allowed non-Force sensitives near to feel the Force.

"The Revan was here yesterday. It is a gift to be in the presence. I felt the Force - it travels below your skin, strait to the heart, lungs, the gut. A warmth and a chill."

―Ongree Servant (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

(For evidence this quote is concerning Darth Revan)

Darth Revan is seen in the KOTOR (tabletop game) guidebook, with stats comparable to or above those of Exar Kun. Again, I am NOT saying that Darth Revan~Exar Kun,however it IS something to consider, and is obvious evidence that Darth Revan is considerably more powerful than he's given credit for. As well, Darth Revan has higher Force relevant stats than Darth Nihilus, a world devouring entity.

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Now, before you're all yelling "stats aren't canonical", Leland Chee seems to disagree with you. Stating only that the stats aren't valid if they're directly contradicted by a novel or higher source.

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction."

- Leland Chee

The above quote and scans basically proves that Darth Revan is much more powerful than most seem to credit him for.

Revan is stated by Meetra Surik as having a greater control of the Force than anyone she’s ever met. This puts Mando Wars Revan above the entire Sith Triumvirate (in regards to Force Mastery, not power), above any of the era’s Jedi Masters (notable, given the KOTOR era is stated to be the prime of the Jedi Order) and even some relatively famous Jedi, like Vima Sunrider.

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met."

―Meetra Surik (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

Star Map/Forge Scaling:

Darth Revan seemingly scales off of Ajunta Pall, via the Star Map on Korriban.

The spirit of Ajunta Pall considers the Redeemed Revan to be very powerful, but more importantly, notes the power of what is alluded to as being the Star Map located on Korriban. It is also said by Pall that the Star Map's influence is what eventually drove them to fighting each other, indicating they weren’t powerful enough to control the Map's power and influence. Also note that Pall’s spirit refers to the Star Map as being the SOURCE of their immense power. If this is taken literally (and I’m not saying that it should) that would mean Malak, upon receiving his Star Forge amp, would likely be as powerful as Ajunta Pall or Karness Muur, two of the absolute most powerful Sith Lords in history (given that there's no reason to assume the Star Forge amp increases over time, they should all be on the same level).

"The Force is so strong with you, human, yet the face, the soul, it has been so very long."

―Ajunta Pall (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place,and you will regret it."

―Ajunta Pall (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

Darth Malak, however, has seemingly taken his use of the Star Forge to its fullest potential (based on his obviously deep understanding of the station's functions), and has not exhibited any debilitating effects from his exposure to the Star Forge. Indicating that Malak’s mental fortitude is greater, and possibly (and I emphasize the word “possibly”) implies that Malak was on par with or superior in power, to Ajunta Pall and his followers.

"The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs."

―Star Wars Databanks: Darth Malak

"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference:I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"

―Darth Malak (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic)

It’s also stated by the Rakata themselves that only a person of exceptional strength and mental fortitude can control the Star Forge.

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."

―Ancient Rakata Computer (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

Now, we also know that Revan took control of the Star Forge. While he didn't take it to the degree Malak did, the fact that the Forge was subservient to Revan scales Revan vastly above the likes of the exiles, who again, were driven mad by a mere Star Map.

It should also be noted that, in the non-canon Dark Side history of the KOTOR games, Revan is credited by his lover and apprentice, Bastila Shan, as the only person alive that is capable of controlling the Star Forge. If this is taken as truth, it would mean Darth Revan was capable of the same level of control of the Star Forge that Malak achieved, meaning Revan would receive not only the scaling from Malak I mentioned above, but also, would receive the separate scaling granted by control of the Star Forge, the same scaling I’ve shown that Malak gets. Note that Revan does NOT get BOTH scalings simultaneously as some kind of “Revan gets double the power because of two different scalings”, only that both ways of scaling are equally attributable to Revan.

"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

Please note though that this scaling is, as I said before, very shaky, and nothing here should be taken 100% literally. That being said, this scaling should be enough to establish that Darth Malak, and by extension Darth Revan, is much more powerful than initially thought to be.


While a Force user’s knowledge is not a direct measure of power, it is important to note that Force users grow in power as they learn, practice, and master new abilities. It strengthens their connection to the Force. As seen in the majority of literature, as seen in most fantasy universes, knowledge IS power, to a greater or lesser extent. And Darth Revan should be no exception to this rule. Therefore, his immense knowledge in the Dark Side, should be HEAVILY indicative of a level of power far exceeding most Sith.

Darth Revan knows everything that Kreia knows. This includes anything learned on Malachor V, as Kreia simply studied what Revan had already discovered over the course of the Mandalorian Wars.

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters."

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

Revan is stated to have only left the order after learning (and presumably mastering) everything he could from the Jedi. This would mean Revan likely had at least a working knowledge, if not advanced knowledge or mastery, of every ability the Jedi knew during the KOTOR era. This would even include more obscure powers, like Wall of Light.

But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters: that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

"Revan had many Masters, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that he returned to his first Master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the Order."

―Mical (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

Likewise, Revan is stated to have a VAST knowledge of the Dark Side. This is through his intensive study of the Dark Side secrets he discovered on Malachor V. As well, it’s stated that Revan had knowledge of powers and rituals so dangerous, that Darth Bane couldn’t fathom himself ever using many of them. Also, Revan seems to be implied to have studied, in depth, everything he discovered on Malachor V, as well as Korriban. The knowledge base of Malchor V being described as planet sized.

"But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan..."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

"Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

―Darth Bane (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

It should be noted that none of this proves without doubt that Revan MASTERED all of these abilities, but it’s EXTREMELY out of character of him to have not done so. Especially given we know for a fact that Revan was constantly searching for more information to absorb, the exact words used by (iirc) Master Dorak are "insatiable hunger for knowledge”. Someone like this logically isn’t going to learn something and then drop their skill in it half-way into their study of the field.

"Revan was once a promising Padawan. But ever eager to learn more about the Force, Revan sought knowledge of ancient Sith magics..."

―Vrook Lamar (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Also, it should be noted that Revan is implied to know how to create Force Wounds, after learning all he could from Malachor V. Now, I’m not saying he can create an army of Darth Nihilus level followers or anything, but he CAN create at least low level wounds like Malachor V was. Revan is stated as knowing the kind of power that can be granted from creating a wound in the Force, for this to be true, for him to have seemingly experienced the power that could be gained through doing such a thing, he logically must have been able to create a wound in order to have experienced said power.

"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places, and the power in making them."

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

During Revan’s battle with the second strike team on Yavin IV in “Shadow of Revan”, Revan uses a seemingly unique variation of drain. I don’t have a clip or image as of yet, but the attack seems to lift the target in the air as it drains them, and he does this to almost the entire strike team, simultaneously. Whether this is the same form of Drain he learned on Malachor V or not is unknown, but I thought I'd include it just due to the possibility.

"[The strike team member's] life and force power are being drained [by Revan]"

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

Revan can manipulate Force Bonds, forming destructive bonds between enemies to assist him in battle. He does this during the “Temple of Sacrifice” operation. But due to the nature of the ability, it seems to me like something he may have learned on Malachor V.

"A malicious variation of a Force Bond. Destructively twists the force essence of linked individuals. The very essence of your being has been corrupted."


"Yes, such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something.That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war."

-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

Also, pay close attention to this quote:

"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

Note the wording, "to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force." This is very similar to what Kreia saw in Meetra Surik and Darth Nihilus, the potential end of the Force itself. This could be taken as meaning that the Star Forge itself was a wound in the Force, and is even further evidence that Revan had mastered the ability to control these wounds.

Darth Revan’s Greatest Feat:

While Darth Revan doesn’t have many feats, those he does have are rather impressive. This one specifically, however, is an EXTREMELY impressive feat, rivaling many of the mythos’ greater feats. At very least rivaling some of the things performed by Revan’s predecessors, such as Exar Kun and Naga Sadow, to name a couple.

Revan uses the nexus at the Trayus Core as the backbone of this feat, being that it’s the greatest focal point of Dark Side energy located on the planet. He uses this energy to help corrupt his soldiers and loyal Jedi, forcing them into falling to the Dark Side. The below quote is also indicative of large scale mental domination. Obviously, the mere presence of a powerful Dark Side nexus or being can’t actually corrupt and turn one to the Dark Side. Meaning, in order to turn his Jedi followers into Sith in that instant, he would have needed to manipulate the power of the nexus on Malachor and in the Trayus Core, AS WELL AS, reaching out and affecting the minds of all his followers, SIMULTANEOUSLY.

"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Revan also uses the rest of the planet’s Dark Side energies to alter the tide of the battle. Using the Dark Side to, apparently, increase the strength of his own forces, and demoralize or weaken the Mandalorian opposition.

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

"Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Note the wording of the second quote, “draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below”. This feat is being performed on the space battle in orbit, miles above the surface, where the nexus is located. Revan then draws on the Dark Side power of the entire planet, manipulating the energy on a planetary level. None of Darth Revan’s predecessors (barring Emperor Vitiate) have ever attempted a manipulation of energy like this before, let alone actually succeeded in the endeavor. While this feat is NOT on par with feats like Plagueis causing the coldest winter in Naboo’s history with his mere presence, it IS still a planetary level feat. Implying that Revan, even in as early an iteration as his “Darth” stage, could have been approaching that level of power (though obviously still quite solidly below anyone like Plaguies.) This feat should be FAR more than enough to place Darth Revan above the likes of Count Dooku or Darth Vader, and much closer to the same level as someone like Arcann, at least in my humble opinion.

There is, however, an opposing viewpoint. The opposition is that the use of the planet was simply Revan playing on the planet as a cultural taboo, rather than Revan actually manipulating the planet’s energies. This is easily debunked.

It’s stated that Meetra Surik and her forces were being defeated by the Mandalorians before Revan’s forces arrived. This is stated by Bao-Dur, who also offered this below quote. The below quote details the shape of the Republic fleet before Revan's arrival.

The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable. The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back. Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.

-KOTOR 2, Bao-Dur

The Battle wasn’t actually a success for the Republic until AFTER Revan arrived, as implied here. Which lends further credence to the argument that Revan actually manipulated the energies on Malachor V, instead of simply using the world solely as a point of strategy and nothing else. While the below quote isn't in regards to the Battle of Malachor V specifically, it is a general blanket statement concerning the war as a whole.

"It was not your ships or your men or your vaunted 'fight for freedom' that won this, the final battle of the war. It was by the actions of one person–the Jedi Revan–that you prevailed. Revan's strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan's plans."


It's also, again, important to note the wording. It’s stated directly that Revan DREW ON the Dark Side energy located on the planet. Meaning he was actively calling upon and using the Dark Side power present there. The wording pretty much destroys any other interpretations of the feat. We also know for a fact that the effects of the nexus and Dark Side energy on the planet did not have any effect on anything that wasn’t on the planet’s surface, as it’s made relatively clear that those same energies didn’t reveal itself to Revan until he was already on-world.

“He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.”

– Chronicles of the Old Republic

On top of this, some might argue that Revan used the planet's nexus to draw the Mandalorians into battle, however, it's stated that Revan drew them to the world with his own stronghold built on/above the world itself.

Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

-Chronicles of the Old Republic, Darth Revan Rising.

Revan's Power over the Rakata:

This is another contender for Darth Revan's greatest feat, as it's (in my opinion) one of the best telepathy feats in the mythos.

The One and (iirc) the Rakata elders, note that Revan pulled Rakatan from their minds and instilled Basic as well, so they could understand each other. Outright, this doesn't seem impressive, but, it becomes impressive when you realize that every non-hostile Rakata you speak with, whether they're important or just random NPCs, greet you openly, understanding of basic. This is evidenced here:

Speaking with unimportant Rakata

Now, this video showcases only the One and his Rakata, but the Elders in the other compound also understand basic thanks to Revan.

You used the Force to draw the Rakata language for our minds, even as you planted Basic into our skulls so we could help you in your quest to escape the world. -Rakatan Elders, KOTOR

You used your power to rip the Rakata language from my mind, even as you drove Basic into our skulls so we could help you in your quest to find something called the Star Forge.

- The One, KOTOR

Now, this may still seem unimpressive, until faced with the numbers of the Rakata present in the area. It is stated that the One has a thousand warriors at his command.

But we heard of the Temple of the Ancients here, on this forgotten island at the edge of the True Sea, and the One was intrigued. It was a place of power, to be sure, and none could doubt its significance. Driven by portents and omens, we came to this island with a thousand of his finest warriors... and here we stay...


Every single Rakata we encounter understands basic, based on what we know from these quotes and what's seen in the video, at least logically speaking, that is.

Now, "how does Darth Revan scale from this?" Well I'm glad you asked.

We see Redeemed Revan attempt to mind trick one of the Black Rakata, provided that Revan encounters the Black Rakata before the Elders. However, given that it's in the game, and is something that can happen, I believe it to be an accurate representation of what Redeemed Revan is capable of, which is to say, not much, compared to what Darth Revan has done.

[Force Persuade] I don't have to come with you.

Rakatan Elite Warrior: [Failure] You try to use your magic on us, Interloper? We are Rakata! You cannot bend us to your will like mindless beasts!


This is, needless to say, a very obvious indication of Darth Revan being more powerful than Redeemed Revan, and is made more impressive by the fact that the Rakata are naturally resistant to the Force.

"Soon the Infinite Empire stretched across the entire galaxy.Over time, we lost our ability to use the Force. Some believe we had used the Force for so long that we evolved biologically, and became immune to its effects"


"Perhaps we became immune to the effects of the Force from overuse. Perhaps our breeding habits rendered our species insensitive to it over time. None truly know.The only discernable result was that we could no longer command the Force as we had. Its power had escaped us."


So what we have here, is Revan essentially dominating the minds of a thousand Force resistant Rakata, and tearing their language from them while simultaneously imparting Galactic Basic onto them. This implies to me that feat was done with minimal to moderate difficulty at best.

Based on all this, obviously, Revan, even as a Sith Lord, is far more powerful than he's frequently given credit for.

Lightsaber Skill:

One thing I see a lot of, is hardcore underrating of Revan’s skills a lightsaber duelist. While it may not have been as strong a point for him as his Force abilities were, he is still an incredibly skilled swordsman.

Revan was confirmed to be highly skilled in the use of Niman. Which is easily visible in his many appearances, especially given Revan’s obvious pension for using Force based attacks frequently during lightsaber combat (seen primarily in SWTOR.)

Revan is stated to have only left the Jedi Order after learning EVERYTHING he could possibly have learned. This would include the lightsaber forms. Given his established character trait of wanting to MASTER everything he could, it can be surmised that Revan did indeed master all seven forms of lightsaber combat. Especially considering Revan’s aforementioned "insatiable hunger for knowledge”.

“Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat...”

- Drew Karpyshyn

“He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters: that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever.”

-Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

It also should be noted that Revan is often pictured dual-wielding lightsabers, meaning Revan was also skilled in the use of Jar’Kai. In the one of the stat books associated with KOTOR, Revan is also credited with dual weapon mastery.

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Revan is also seen dropping into a Juyo stance when confronted by Bastila and her strike team aboard his flagship.

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Revan could also use Jyo in "Shadow of Revan."

Revan Juyo

This implies Revan has a degree of knowledge in the form that he believes he can safely utilize the form against three fully fledged Jedi, one of them being Bastila, one of the most powerful Jedi of the time. Mastery of Juyo also requires mastery of several other forms of lightsaber combat.

"Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all the forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill."

-Cin Drallig

Revan is also listed with skill in Ataru and Soresu:



By far, Revan’s greatest showing of lightsaber skill is during his assault on the Star Forge, where he fights against Darth Malak’s Sith followers, which are confirmed as "experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat" as well as"highly skilled duelists." Logically, why wouldn’t they be? These are ex-Jedi (mostly) that fought for years against Mandalorians, the greatest warriors in the Star Wars mythos, so of course they’re going to be experts in combat. Revan performs this feat while there are a couple of circumstances in play.

A: The Star Forge is a Dark Side Nexus, and an incredibly powerful one at that. Revan, as a Jedi, would have factually been weakened by the Nexus, and his Sith opponents would have been amped.

B: Revan was outnumbered, and yet was still able to make it through “dozens” of highly skilled, amped, Sith. After all that, he was still able to fight and defeat amped Bastila Shan, and an amped Darth Malak.

Now, this CAN just be considered a feat of endurance for Revan, but really, given the circumstances surrounding the feat, a lot of the feat MUST have been achieved through pure skill.


That's all she wrote, I hope this blog was educational.


So what exactly IS a "Grey Jedi"?

I realize that this probably isn't a thread that needs to be made, as most of the well informed fanbase understands everything that I'm going to say, but I feel this is an issue among the up and coming fans, and an issue I feel I should deal with. This probably doesn't need to be a blog, but it'll be easier for me to find when I need it.

Alright, so I'm going to address an issue here that I see a lot of people having. Not necessarily recently, but in an overall sense as something I see quite often. That issue is the misunderstanding of what exactly a Grey Jedi is.

Let's first establish that a Grey Jedi is, quite literally, just a member of the Jedi Order. A Grey Jedi is simply a Jedi that doesn't always follow the Jedi Code, rather, they deliver justice in accordance to their own personal moral standards. That's seen in this quote from "The Jedi Path" in reference to Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the most well known Grey Jedi characters.

"Jinn always does things his own way, always sure he is right, always incredulous if we do not see it his way. Some think he is a gray Jedi."

―Tyvokka, on Qui-Gon Jinn

"The so-called gray Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with the Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council. Gray Jedi make compromises, cut corners, and hide their actions from scrutiny, all under the assumption that their experience makes them authorities on policy. They are mavericks who are difficult to control, but can be valued members of the Order after they have been persuaded to follow the established hierarchy."

―Restelly Quist, Jedi Chief Librarian following the New Sith Wars

So basically, a Grey Jedi is a normal member of the Jedi Order that doesn't always follow the code, or the will of the Jedi Council, to the letter, rather, they have a more loose interpretation of what the code allows and forbids a Jedi to do. Another example of Grey Jedi are the Revanchists, the Jedi faction that followed Revan to the Mandalorian Wars. They were Jedi in every sense of the word, they simply didn't adhere to the Jedi Code as closely, and ignored the word of the Jedi Council.

"If we're going to have a Jedi Council at all, then somebody, somewhere, is going to do what it tells them!"

―Master Vrook Lamar, member of the Dantooine Jedi Conclave Council, and then of the Jedi High Council

So now, we've established what a Grey Jedi really is. Now we need to find out how the current preconception of a Grey Jedi, a being who uses both sides of the Force, was originated. I believe it's the term itself, "grey", meaning a balance of something light and something dark. The most often used example of this version of Grey Jedi, is Revan. As Revan is the best example of a Jedi who can use both sides of the Force.

What people fail to realize is that Revan is the exception, not the rule. Nowhere else in the long history of the Jedi Order has a Grey Jedi ever mastered both the Light and Dark sides of the Force, even Luke Skywalker only had a relatively minor understanding of Dark Side powers. So Revan really is either just a special exception of a normal Grey Jedi, or, he is something else entirely, which I'll cover next.

What most people call Grey Jedi (those who use both sides of the Force) I refer to simply as "Grey". This umbrella includes individuals like Revan, as well as organizations like the Jensaarai, Voss Mystics, and Imperial Knights, as both sides practice Force use, but none of them are members of the Jedi Order.

The Jensaarai are perhaps the best example, as they are neither good or evil, and sprang directly from the Sith.

"We are not evil."

"No, the Jensaarai are not, nor are they wholly good."

―The Saarai-kaar and Luke Skywalker

The Imperial Knights, while more like the Jedi in that they follow the Light Side strictly, are still not Jedi, so the term Grey JEDI, does not apply, thus, they fall under the blanket of simply being Grey.

"As Imperial Knights, we obey the Emperor but only as long as he serves the light side of the Force."

―Ganner Krieg, an Imperial Knight

The Voss are perhaps the most unique, as they spring from neither the Jedi or the Sith in their teachings, unlike the Imperial Knights and the Jensaarai. And like the others, they do not fall under the name of Grey Jedi, because they are not Jedi. The quotes at the top imply that in order to be a Grey Jedi, one must be a member of the Jedi Order.

"The Mystics are not Jedi or Sith. Their power is raw, unchecked."

―Knight Wen, member of the Jedi Order circa 3,643 BBY

Note that these are not the only organizations covered under this umbrella, there are others as well, such as the Zakuul Knights, among others. The examples given here are simply some of the more well known examples.

Here, I'm going to cover a couple specific individuals in more detail. As I covered Revan above already, I won't go over him again here.

Jolee Bindo: Bindo is an example many people use to justify the idea that a Grey Jedi is somebody that tries balancing both sides of the Force, and they use quotes from the character himself to further justify that idea. Unfortunately, that notion is false. After the Great Sith War against Exar Kun, Bindo left the Jedi Order behind. He was no longer a Jedi, and therefore, the term of Grey Jedi does not apply to him. He did however, return to the Jedi Order, at which point he would have been covered by the Grey Jedi term.

Ahsoka Tano: I've seen A LOT of people misidentify Tano as a Grey Jedi, and I'm unsure of why. She herself, in the season 2 finale of Rebels, admits that she is not a Jedi, and is even willing to take vengeance on Vader for the death of her old master, Anakin Skywalker, a trait that is not befitting of a Jedi. While her overall philosophy does not vary much from the traditional views of the Jedi Order, they do vary enough to be notable, and the fact she left the Jedi Order, and is no longer an official Jedi, means she is not covered under the term Grey Jedi, instead falling under the "Grey" category.

The bottom line is this, what most people think of when they talk about Grey Jedi, are Force users in general that can utilize both sides of the Force. This simply isn't true, as in order to be a Grey Jedi, you must have been a member of the Jedi Order. What most call Grey Jedi, are simply Grey, not Jedi.

"Gray Jedi are those who, though having completed the teachings of the Jedi, operate independently and outside of the Jedi Council. They are typically seen as misguided, though they have not necessarily succumbed to the dark side."

―Gray Jedi Robe item description

Start the Conversation

The Argument: Justifying High Placement of Revan

So recently, my placement of Revan has been a topic of some comedy to people, both here and on KMC. Here, I will share a thread I made that was created in hopes of giving a good explanation of WHY I hold Revan as highly as I do. I don't expect anybody's opinions to be altered by this, it's simply a detailed explanation.

I posted this initially in general discussion, but decided to make it a blog entry. Now for the argument, why I think Revan can be easily compared to the likes of Yoda and ROTS Sidious.

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First, we look at his best feats.

-Resisting and somewhat overcoming Emperor Vitiate, one of (if not THE) most powerful Sith Lords of all time.

-Matching and, initially, defeating a strike team consisting of all 8 SWTOR protags.

-Barely falling to a second, likewise powerful, strike team IMMEDIATELY after the above battle.

-While incredibly weakened, contending and posing a legitimate threat to the 4 Imperial characters in SWTOR on the Foundry.

-Non-combat showings

- Ultimately ending on a straight up comparison of Yoda and Revan's displayed power, and conclusions based on those comparisons and scaling.

He has other incredibly impressive feats, but I'll focus on these four specifically for now. So, let me elaborate.

First I'm going to establish why I believe Vitiate is an equal to Sidious post ROTS, likely much closer to ROTJ Sidious. Just a real quick, basic outline of how powerful Vitiate is.

Note: SoR Revan is not a Jedi or Sith

Revan, as of SoR, is neither Jedi or Sith, he is the leader of the Order of Revan, and as such is a Revanite.

Revan is a Revanite

Vitiate's Greatest Hits:

It should be noted that Vitiate, when he drained Ziost, was weakened. He'd only just been given enough power to actually move freely (via the events of "Shadow of Revan".) Yet, despite being weakened, was able to mentally dominate the entirety of the population of Ziost, and was able to drain the entire planet (arguably) without needing to use his Thought Bomb-esque ritual. This in turn means that, even weakened, spirit Vitiate is much more powerful than he was when he dominated the wills of 8000 Sith Lords on Medriaas/Nathema.

Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry "Death of a World"

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

Star Wars The Old Republic Revan

He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Vitiate destroys Ziost

Easily defeating a powerful Jedi Strike team which he also mentally dominated.

Mental Domination:

As the Sith Emperor gradually dominates the free will of everyone on Ziost, both Lana Beniko, Minister of the newly formed Sith Intelligence, and Theron Shan, a spy for the Galactic Republic, are trying to stop the chaos.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Combat Superiority

Defeating Revan, a Force user arguably on par with Yoda and ROTS Sidious (as I am endeavoring to prove.)

"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....

As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Killing the entirety of the Dark Council save for Nyriss and two others, nine of them were presumably killed, easily, by Vitiate. This is comparable to, or superior, ROTS Sidious blitzing the B-Team.

"It wasn't just Nyriss who was attacked. The Emperor killed them all."

"The files you showed me listed five current members of the Dark Council plotting against him,"

Meetra said, looking to clarify. "Are you saying the Emperor's Guard wiped out all five in the space of a single day?"

"I said he killed them all," Scourge replied. Revan asked. "He attacked a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many troops does he have?"

"All twelve members of the Dark Council—even those who weren't part of the conspiracy. He wanted to send a message no one would ever forget."

"How is that possible?"

"The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive."

From (Lord Scourge, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

He does so again, this time against the entire Council. Vitiate does this incredibly easily, the Council members (barring Lokess who was captured) were all seemingly killed instantly by Vitiate. Like the above feat, this is also comparable to ROTS Sidious' handling of the B-Team.

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Marka Ragnos, the most powerful of the ancient Dark Lords, acknowledges Vitiate's incredible power while Vitiate is still a young boy.

With all of Mediraas under his power, Tenebrae traveled to Korriban and met Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, ruler of all Sith. Marka Ragnos recognized Tenebrae's incredible power and named the boy Lord Vitiate.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

There's also the possibility of Vitiate, 50 years after the Revan novel, defeating Zakuul's pantheon of gods. Izax and Tyth are the notable names. These beings were made as superweapons, and were responsible for the destruction of entire worlds, and Vitiate was more powerful than them. In fact, one of Valkorion's titles, "Slayer of Izax" indicates he actually killed Izax, the most powerful member of the pantheon.

Superiority to Darth Nihilus

Vitiate is, canonically (Legends canon), more powerful than Darth Nihilus, a world devouring Dark Side monster.

Kreia speaks of Nihilus here, comparing him to the "Ancient Sith", which "Star Wars: The Old Republic" revealed as Emperor Vitiate and his Sith Empire. Nihilus is stated as only rivaling SOME of the Ancient Sith by the end of KOTOR II, meaning Nihilus is likely below Sith such as Ajunta Pall and Karness Muur.

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We know Kreia is referring to Sith like Pall, Muur, Ragnos, etc, based on this quote below, where she refers to the identically as the "ancient Sith" and really, there's not anyone else she could be comparing Nihilus to.

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Chris Avellone also confirms that what Kreia says in regards to the ancient Sith, is accurate.

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

- Chris Avellone

Vitiate is stated to be the most powerful Force user to have lived up until this point, making him more powerful than the Ancient Sith to which Kreia compared Nihilus, which obviously means Vitiate is more powerful than Darth Nihilus.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

It's also important to note that Kreia was likely referring to Vitiate when she referred to the "true Sith Empire" hidden in the Unknown Regions. Kreia speaks of the "true Sith" and the "ancient Sith" as one and the same. Meaning Vitiate is included in all of Kreia's words about the ancient Sith. Vitiate is well known to have been alive during the time of the ancient Sith, having been born prior to the death of Marka Ragnos. Meaning not only that Vitiate is one of the ancient Sith that Kreia believes Nihilus to be inferior to, but also, that Vitiate is factually the most powerful ancient Sith to have ever lived. So Vitiate should be at least reasonably more powerful than Nihilus, if not solidly.

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Vitiate/Valkorion is not a Sith:

Vitiate/Valkorion is not technically a true member of Sith society.

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As the Immortal Emperor Valkorion, Vitiate sheds his past for a new life, abandoning Sith dogma. He did this very early on, and had been constructing Zakuul as an empire long before he fought Revan, three hundred years prior to the events that unfold in SWTOR and its expansions.

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Here is a link to Vitiate's Respect Thread, so you can examine for yourself how powerful Vitiate is. Credit to S_W_LeGenD for making Vitiate/Valkorion's Respect Thread.

Vitiate RT

1: Revan vs Vitiate:

Most people view this fight as a stomp, that Vitiate easily defeated Revan and that there's nothing more to talk about. I disagree, to an extent.

Revan is, quite obviously, a superior combatant to Vitiate in a traditional sense. In that Revan is far more well rounded than Vitiate is, as well, Revan has many years of experience fighting wars to draw on. This superior combative ability and experience allowed Revan to easily deflect Vitiate's lightning, lightning that is, via scaling just as powerful as that of Nyriss, which was capable of turning Meetra Surik and Scourge to ash. When Vitiate finally decides to stop playing around, he briefly charges a lightning storm, which means this is an attack that is VASTLY more powerful than lightning that is already "infinitely" superior that which is capable of ashing a powerful Jedi and Sith Lord. Revan is able to mitigate the initial brunt of the lightning's destructive power. An attack that, by all rights, should have turned Revan to ash, failed to do so. What this means, is that Revan was powerful enough that he was able to nullify most of the lightning's power, managing to escape with nothing but 2nd degree burns. This is the single most effective thing anyone has ever done against a full powered Vitiate, even powerful Jedi like the Hero of Tython/Outlander were incapable of resisting a full strength blast of lightning from a Vitiate that was in full health.

Revan absorbing and surviving much of the lightning.

"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....

As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Let's also keep in mind, the supplementary material. Which states that Revan nearly killed Vitiate. While this needs to be taken with a grain of salt (given the text obviously does not support the below quotes) it should be taken as meaning that, at very least, Revan was the only person seen thus far (including the Outlander) that was ever as successful in open, single combat, as he was.

"Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again."

"For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. "

-Charles Boyd. Link to full comment here: Full comment (#56)

So based on what we see in the fight, the circumstances surrounding it, and supplementary quotes, it's safe to say that Revan, as of his fight with Vitiate, while not comparable in power, had the necessary skill to have been able to go toe to toe with Vitiate on even ground. So how does this put Revan on Yoda and Sidious' level? Well I'm glad you asked. Vitiate, even as of the novel, still has feats that approach Sidious level (many of which I went over in the above section written entirely for Vitiate), and given that it's likely that Vitiate didn't grow much between the events of the novel and the events of vanilla SWTOR (because Vitiate shows no apparent growth, and I don't recall any sources confirming he'd become more powerful), that Vitiate was already on the same level as ROTJ Sidious himself (due to having a planet's worth of power+the combined strength of 8000 Sith Lords and every other living thing that died on Medriaas during Vitiate's ritual). Putting Revan at around the same level as Yoda and ROTS Sidious via scaling.

2: The Duel at the Temple of Sacrifice

The duel at the temple is one of Revan's greatest feats, in this battle he fought and actually overcame the combined power and ability of the 8 main characters. This includes the Hero of Tython, Emperor's Wrath II, Barsen'thor, and Darth Nox, all of whom have feats (by the events of Shadow of Revan) approaching or already on the same level as some earlier versions of Darth Vader. So 4 of these combatants were (arguably) nearing the same level as varying versions of Vader. And the other 4, the non Force users, consisted of the very best operatives that the Empire and the Republic had, all four of which who had killed Force users in the past.

Here is the link to Vader's RT, so a comparison can be made between the protags and Vader. Credit to Zapan871 for making Vader's Respect Thread. The link leads to Part One of Vader's RT, there are links to Parts Two and Three located there.

I will endeavor to make a separate thread later on, comparing the protags to Vader, but I don't want to do that in this specific thread, due to how much longer the thread will end up being if I do. I will, however, include a few feats for each of the protags, and highlight some of the more impressive scaling that they each have as well.

Vader RT

Examples of Vader level feats by the Force using protags.

Hero of Tython

Ragdolling Vitiate's weakened Voice-

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Keep in mind that Vitiate, despite being weakened, is still one of, if not the, most powerful Sith in the Empire. Placing him above the likes of Darth Jadus, Marr, Nox, or any other Sith alive at the time. This is where scaling comes in. Here are some of Jadus' feats.

Shaking a Harrower Dreadnought with his rage, something that doesn't even require him to make a gesture.

Jadus holds together his ship with the Force, after it had supposedly been destroyed by an explosion.

“All military channels are reporting in. The Dominator has been completely destroyed.”

Watcher Two (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

“Nothing could have survived that explosion. All sources confirm. Casualties are one hundred percent.”

—Watcher Two (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

“The shvash gas incinerated only part of the ship. My power held together the remains.”

—Darth Jadus (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

This feat is more than comparable to the best that Darth Vader has to offer (such as collapsing a Cathedral), and because Vitiate is still more powerful at this point than Jadus, it places even a weakened Vitiate, on the same level as Darth Vader. The fact that the Hero of Tython managed to defeat this weakened incarnation of Vitiate, means that he is at least comparable to Vader.

Darth Nox

Ragdolling Darth Thanaton.

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Some of Thanaton's feats for reference.

Destroying stone with TK while vastly pre-prime.

One shotting a Gargantuan Terentatek while vastly pre prime. Keep in mind, Terentateks are heavily resistant, almost immune, to the Force. The ability to one-shot a normal Terentatek, let alone a Gargantuan, with a Force power is highly impressive.

Demonstrates the ability to levitate, and even fly, using the kinetic energy in his lightning. This suggests that Thanaton's lightning is incredibly power, when also considered alongside his insta-killing a Terentatek.

Based on this, Thanaton may or may not be Vader level, but his displays of power in the Force place him at least as a rival to the likes of Count Dooku (at least in the use of lightning), who is extremely powerful in his own right.


Defeating the First Son, who seemed to have close to the same level of power as the weakened Voice of Vitiate that was killed by the HoT-

Comparing the First Son with the likes of Vitiate's weakened Voice, and scaling him as at least equal to the Barsen'thor himself, the First Son should be at least within Vader's wheelhouse.

Emperor's Wrath II

Defeating Sel-Makor in the body of Emperor Vitiate, Sel-Makor being an incredibly powerful entity that physically changed the landscape around where his center of power was located. The Sel-Makor possessed Voice of Vitiate, while less powerful than normal, is still incredibly powerful.

Now, back to Revan.

What's interesting about this is that Revan not only fought them, but he was beating them for a time. On multiple occasions during this fight, Revan was capable of ragdolling members of the team, even going as far ragdolling multiple members of the team at the same time. On top of that, Revan displayed the ability to teleport, which would exponentially increase his combat effectiveness. Here are some of the things Revan did during that fight, such as easily throwing stone pillars at the members of the team, throwing multiple of them at once. Revan's weakened spirit was able to lift a heavy stone walkway, and the Returned Revan was able to telekinetically control multiple lightsabers at once. He was also capable of leaving behind aberrations (large blobs) of pure Dark Side energy (a form of sorcery) that acted essentially as landmines. He can also create a protection bubble, that temporarily makes him invulnerable.…/111140132/4788760-2924254181……/111140132/4737216-4958082507……/111140132/4737226-1301435532……/11114…/4306234-revan+yeah.gif…/111140132/4777168-0711344804……/111140132/4760909-5226115068……/111140132/4737229-3713252642…

But the best part about this, is that Revan actually SUCCEEDED in killing members of the team, as evidenced here:

Boon of the Spirit

"Target has been recently resurrected by an outside force, and cannot be resurrected in this manner again."

Boon of the Spirit

The fact that this event is scripted, means that every PC is offered one resurrection. By extension, this could also mean that Revan succeeded in killing EVERY member of the strike team that fought him in the temple, and the he was only driven back because he was forced to fight them a second time.

As seen above, Revan actually did succeed in killing members of the team at the Temple, and the Spirit (Light Side) Revan, had to resurrect them from the dead. This has other implications as well, that Revan, even weakened as a spirit, was capable of bringing people back from the dead. This is more impressive than even Darth Krayt or Cade Skywalker's displays of Dark Transfer, and is also as impressive as Sidious' being able to repeatedly kill and revive people as a form of torture.

Now, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of quotes for this fight, but some of the other quotes I'll post in the next section are retroactive and can be used to cover this fight. These are not all of the things Revan did in this specific duel, but these are enough to give an idea of what I'm talking about.

3: Battle at the Forgotten Terrace

This was Revan's last actual duel of his life, as Revan ultimately became one with the Force after this fight was over. But the things he does are still highly impressive. Keep in mind, this duel happens AFTER the duel in the Temple of Sacrifice. So, by this time, Revan is no longer at his full strength, he's exhausted and hurt from his previous duel, which he is stated to have barely lost in. Keep in mind, when Revan says the team barely managed to drive him back, he's not saying it out of hubris, Revan FACTUALLY managed to kill members of that team, and if it hadn't been for Revan's Light Side, his Spirit, Shadow Revan would have succeeded in killing off the entire team at the Temple of Sacrifice.

"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"

―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

For evidence that Revan was, in fact, wounded during this battle, look to this clip from the "Temple of Sacrifice" operation. Revan suffers from the backfiring of his Machine Core, essentially taking the brunt of a power source that has the strength to kill all life within a 1 kilometer range. This is a level of power that I'm convinced would hurt ANYONE, and is obvious proof that Revan was wounded by the time of the duel on the Forgotten Terrace. When Revan is injured, he shouts "No, I will not be denied!"

The event specifically happens between 8:10 and 8:16.

Revan is injured

Supporting quotes:

"[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"Upon successful completion, [Revan will deal] massive damage to enemies within 1km. Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel. Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

These are some of the things Revan does in this duel. Protection bubbles, teleportation, Force in Balance, ragdolling all but one member of the strike team (there are other things he does as well that I will show.) This strike team consists of: The HoT (presumably), Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Jakarro, Theron Shan, Lana Beniko, and Shae Viszla; some of the most powerful and skilled people in the galaxy aside from the protagonists themselves. He also used a unique variation of Force Drain that lifted the target and held them in place as he drained them. As well as Force Destruction.…/…/4256088-revan+teleport2.gif…/111140132/4431281-3931070021…

"[The strike team member's] life and force power are being drained [by Revan]"

Star Wars: The Old Republic

"Destroying all... [The strike team is] slowly being destroyed by Revan."

Star Wars: The Old Republic…/1111401…/4255498-revan+tk.gif

Force in Balance:…/…/4255510-revan+tk+insane.gif…/111140132/4542284-9254045775…

Based on these following in-game quotes, we can deduce that the second strike team was very close to being matched or overpowered by Revan. Given that the Revan in this fight was hurt and exhausted by his previous duel in the Temple, and we already know for a fact that Revan was capable of killing off the first, more powerful, strike team.

"[Spirit] Revan wants me to succeed [and defeat Revan], but claims I can't do it on my own... We'll need our full strength to defeat Revan when the time comes. Don't do anything to jeopardize that."

―The Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop."


―Darth Marr and the Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"So much power... be strong!"

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"He is strong with the Force! Argh!"

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"Grant me strength! Keep... fighting...!"

―Satele Shan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"I wouldn't miss a fight this good... Tough Sucker! Heck of a fight..."

―Shae Vizla (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"Satele Shan has been incapacitated... [The strike team has] lost Battle Meditation."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

I think I missed a couple of things from this fight, but for the sake of moving alone, I will move to my next point.

4: Defense of the Foundry

After being freed from the Emperor's captivity by a Republic strike team, Revan goes off to the Foundry, an ancient Rakatan space station that's basically the Star Forge on a smaller scale. Revan has just been in captivity for 300 years, at constant mental war with Vitiate AND the Dread Masters.

"Revan played on the Emepror's caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy's mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

"Finally, the Emperor permitted the war to end in a truce- his ruthless tactics unknowingly calmed by his mental link with the Jedi Master Revan, a legendary Republic hero..."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

After 300 years of constant captivity and mental torture, Revan's mind was almost broken, and he physically would have also been weaker. So keep in mind that during this fight, Revan would have been weaker than he was when he fought Vitiate and weaker than he was in "Shadow of Revan." Meaning it's more than reasonable to guess that Revan would be more than a little rusty. And given the fracture already forming in his mind, which would eventually lead to the creation of the "Shadow" it's also reasonable to say Revan's mental state aboard the Foundry was also weakened.

Here are some of the things Revan does during this fight, protection bubbles, lightning, and advanced displays of telekinesis, among other things.…/111140132/4073008-4280414587……/111140132/4777952-9559829992……/111140132/4595313-2577311994…

On top of everything Revan did combatively, he was considered a great threat by Darth Malgus, the Sith Empire's greatest warrior.

"You must not underestimate the Republic defenses, or the Foundry's Jedi Master. He is the greatest threat."

―Darth Malgus (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Now, these are only my arguments centered around combat and outright/comparative power. Next, I will elaborate on his non-combat showings. This section will be significantly shorter than the combat showings.

Non-Combat Showings:

The Returned Revan (SoR Revan) causes a galaxy wide disturbance in the Force. It can be noted that Darth Maul's return also caused a disturbance in the Force, but Maul's return was never implied to be or described as being, as potent or powerful as the one Revan caused. So read this and take it as you will.

"There's something in the Force that I've never felt before. It exists nowhere and everywhere at once. Writhing, growing. I think I sense this "growth" because I'm tied to it somehow, maybe by association to Darth Arkous. I think… I think the Empire's in terrible danger."

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"If I'm wrong, it means my instincts are now deeply flawed. Considering the strange disturbance I sense that continues to pervade the Force, I worry that these concerns are merely the figments of a deranged mind."

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."

―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."

―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"No. They weren't in charge. The disturbance in the Force, I still feel it. It's... arrived."

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Corrupting entire planets with the Force:

"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Revan was able to harness the power of Malachor V, using it to create Dark Jedi and other servants. The fact he was able to do this, means he can create and manipulate Dark Side nexus' and possibly, do the same with Wounds in the Force.

"Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?"

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

The Force in Balance

"He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

"Revan is a powerful Force user who draws on both the light and dark side of the Force... I always felt that Revan was special because he learned to balance and call on both the light and dark sides of the Force."

―Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)

"Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

6. Comparison Between Revan and Yoda:

Here, I'll compare Revan and Yoda's uses of the Force. specifically, Telekinesis and Tutaminis. Given that these two abilities are the best two to use for this comparison.


Yoda's greatest display of power in telekinesis is here, when he's seen lifting dozens (possibly hundreds) of battle droids simultaneously during the Battle of Coruscant. Yoda also easily manipulates CIS troop carrier ships, even being able to easily push one across the ground, despite its weight and despite the immense amount of friction that would likely have been involved here.

Yoda TK's an army

However, Yoda's TK feat in the Microseries is somewhat of an outlier (though not entirely). As we see Yoda have great difficulty, only a few years prior, struggling to lift a crane, with the script for AOTC stating that it required "every scrap" of Yoda's power to lift the crane. This is reciprocated in the film, where Yoda shows OBVIOUS exhaustion and strain from lifting it. This could be attributed to being tired from fighting Dooku, but that's another argument entirely. As well, Yoda also fails to lift all of the Muntuur Stones, which should weigh far less than what the CIS Landing Craft weighs. Ultimately, the feat seen in the Microseries, is an outlier, and does not line up with Yoda's other feats and displays of power, and thus, should be taken with a grain of salt.

"YODA concentrates harder. Slowly, the crane rises. The SOUND OF THE ENGINES increases. YODA exerts every scrap of his powers. The crane lifts clear of ANAKIN and is thrown to the ground. DOOKU'S Sail Ship takes off. OBI-WAN and ANAKIN struggle to the exhausted YODA, but it's too late."

-AOTC Script
No Caption Provided

Now for Revan's Meteor Feat:

No Caption Provided

Revan's Meteors vs Non-Exaggerated Feats

So now, we've established that Yoda's most impressive feat is factually an outlier and an exaggeration. Meaning now, we get to compare it to Revan's most impressive Telekinetic ability. The force with which the meteors are thrown, is obviously EXTREMELY high, given that fact the that these are seemingly solid, huge, chunks of rock. The ability to throw them so hard that they shatter on impact with the ground is EXTREMELY impressive. Especially when compared to Yoda's more solid feats, it should be plainly obvious that throwing several meteors at once/in rapid succession, is FAR more impressive than legitimately struggling to lift a crane, or failing to lift all the Muntuur Stones. Keep in mind as well, that Revan as of his battle on the Foundry, had been a prisoner for centuries, and was severely weakened when he performed this feat. This indicates that, in his "Reborn" or "Shadow" iterations, Revan would be capable of doing MUCH more.

Revan's Meteors vs Yoda's Army

Now, we can also compare the microseries feat specifically (since I know people will still try to bring it up) without any of the science (the science comes later), and still come to the same result as we did with the Crane Feat. Yoda lifting a couple dozen droids and moving a CIS Landing Craft, LOGICALLY, does not compare to the ability to casually grabbing and throwing meteors so hard that they shatter upon impact with the ground, and again, keep in mind that Revan was weakened during this battle. Yoda also was able to push one of the CIS Landing Crafts along the ground, which as I said before, is an impressive feat. Now, compare Yoda's Microseries feat to something like Exar Kun lifting a Deriphan Class Battleship, or the Outlander, Lana Beniko and Senya Tirall, lifting the Gravestone. Both of those are feats where a Force user(s) that was "weaker" than Yoda, lifted an object that was larger and heavier than what Yoda's microseries feat was. Now, if there are Force users like that, who have singular or collective TK greater than Yoda's microseries feat, why then should we consider Revan's Meteor Feat to be inferior? And why then should we assume Yoda to be superior to Revan in the Force? Quite simply, we shouldn't, as there's no logic behind it at all. Anyway, back to the microseries feat, there was no damage done to the carrier, he just pushed it. He then proceeded to simply move a Craft that was already in flight, into the one he was pushing, causing them to be destroyed. This isn't really as impressive as some might make it out to be, given that the Craft that was flying, had its thrusters active, and would have been more easily manipulated than a stationary object, or something that had been resisting Yoda's pull. This is a far cry from the ability to casually toss meteors and disintegrate them on impact with the ground. Ultimately, both logical thinking AND science point towards Revan being more powerful; and it's something that really shouldn't be so hard to fathom anyone thinking.

Ultimately, the microseries is exaggerated and untrustworthy, especially given Yoda's feat is never seen or mentioned in any source that is not known to be exaggerated (i.e, ROTS Novelization, Comic Book, etc). Which means the best (TK) feats we have for Yoda, are these:

Yoda Stops Boulders

Where Yoda simply stops the fall of some boulders.

Or, Yoda stopping Senate Chamber platforms being thrown at him by Sidious, with clearly less force than what a weakened Revan was capable of throwing his meteors with.

Senate Pods (start around 2:50)

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Both of which are feats that really aren't at all as impressive as Revan shattering meteors on impact with the ground as he throws them. You could argue that Sidious was more powerful than Vitiate, and so Yoda's Senate Pod feat scales up from that, but as I highlighted in the opening to this blog, Vitiate is HIGHLY comparable to Sidious, and can easily be argued as ROTS Sidious' superior. However, that is a point to analyze in a different thread.

The only logical conclusion, when feats are compared, is that Revan is more powerful than Yoda or is at least HIGHLY comparable/equal, plain and simple.


This will be pretty straight forward. As we've seen, based on feats, Revan's raw power that can be used at any given time is quite a bit more than Yoda's. So, for this, we need to focus mainly on Sidious and Vitiate, with scaling they get from the displayed power of Yoda and Revan respectively.

"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....

As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Given the kind of power Revan has demonstrated in a weakened state (as we just went over) this version of Revan would logically have been FAR more powerful, and thus capable of much more impressive feats. So, obviously, Vitiate's power here was much more than Revan's own strength was able to handle, and Revan ultimately was only able to mitigate enough of the lightning to prevent himself from being turned to ash. Which leads me to another point, Revan's feat of easily absorbing and rebuking a charged storm from Darth Nyriss, a Sith Lord that was capable of one-shotting both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge, at the same time.

"Revan emerged from the cell. He Had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.

Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.

He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash."

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And, as per the text, Vitiate was "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss was. So again, Revan, while hindered by Dromund Kaas' Dark Side Nexus, was able to perform what is one of the most impressive feats of tutaminis in the mythos. Even the likes of Dooku was unable to ever incinerate someone with lightning, meaning Nyriss' lightning is on the same level as lightning used by people like Starkiller and Darth Plagueis, both of whom have similar feats. (Note that I am NOT saying Nyriss is a Plagueis/Starkiller level combatant overall, ONLY that her lightning is comparable.) Now, given that Vitiate's lightning is "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss, and that it actually BROKE Revan's guard with tutaminis, Vitiate's lightning is quite obviously some of the most powerful stuff we've ever seen. And given Revan's established power vs Yoda's (based solely on their best TK feats) the power that Vitiate presented, is logically much more potent that what Sidious used against Yoda. It must have been, otherwise, Revan would have just as easily batted away Vitiate's lightning as he did Nyriss'. The only conclusion is that, based on scaling, Vitiate at this time was more powerful than Sidious as of ROTS, likely much closer to Sidious in ROTJ, or beyond. And given the comparison between Yoda and Revan here, and taking into consideration the difficulty with which these tutaminis feats were performed, it's obvious that Revan's accomplishment here is more impressive.

For reference, this is Yoda's use of tutaminis vs Sidious as per the ROTS novelization:

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...



have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.

While the Jedi—

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—

Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.

He fell a long way.

The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail. Old he might have been, but there was nothing wrong with his eyesight; he scanned the wreckage below, and he did not see a body.

- Revenge of the Sith

After this, after taking the full brunt of Sidious' lightning, Yoda is mostly OK. Really, he's unharmed. Which means, based on we've established above, Sidious' lightning was simply NOT as powerful as Vitiate's. And Yoda's tutaminis is simply NOT as potent as Revan's was against such a powerful opponent. Again, allow me to reiterate that Yoda emerged from this engagement almost completely unscathed, with really only his clothes suffering minor burns. Now, I don't have the calculations for this comparison, but just eye-balling it, it makes sense that the lightning which was melting Revan's mask onto his face, and boiling Revan's skin, would be FAR more potent than lightning that left less than superficial marks on Yoda.


The end result of this is really very simple. Revan's showings of power are just as impressive, and in some cases, MORE impressive, than Yoda's. So the idea that Yoda is somehow far more powerful than Revan, is laughable in the face of the actual lore. Now, I won't argue that Revan can beat Yoda, I won't argue that Revan can beat Sidious. I'm simply arguing that Revan is COMPARABLE to them, that he'd give them a legitimate challenge.


Senya Tirall Respect Thread

OK, I'm hoping this RT will be at least as good as the others I've made. It took me long enough (did all the editing and everything in one sitting because who the hell needs a life right?) Credit for the videos go to the various youtubers whose gameplay I used. But anyway, with that out of the way, respect Senya Tirall.

No Caption Provided


Senya was a member of Emperor Valkorion's personal guard, implying a level of skill above most of Zakuul's Knights.

“We met after I earned a place in his elite guard, I never hesitated to speak my mind, which caught his attention I suppose.”

- Senya in Knights of the Fallen Empire

Valkorion praises Senya as a skilled warrior and exceptional person.

“Intelligent, skilled, confident, and fearless. She does not give in."

- Knights of the Fallen Empire

Senya is a seasoned warrior with decades of experience.

“Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.”

- Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope

Lightsaber/Combat Skills:

Senya contends with Vaylin a lightsaber duel, performing incredibly well despite Vaylin's augmentation being far stronger than her own.

“Senya was close enough to stare into Vaylin's eyes. They burned with hate, pure and savage; all trace of the child that had once clung to her mother's side was gone. Shocked by the intensity of her daughter's vicious loathing, Senya was forced to look away. In that instant Vaylin dropped down into a crouch, swinging her pike in a wide, sweeping arc meant to cut her mother's legs out from under her. But Senya had already sprung clear with a graceful backflip, landing in a defensive stance to meet Vaylin's next assault.

"Afraid to stand and fight me, Mother?" Vaylin asked with a sly smile. The flames burning all around them cast strange, flickering shadows across her face.

Instead of replying, Senya braced herself for the coming charge, quietly confident in her own skills. They'd clashed once before, and Senya had prevailed: her daughter might be stronger in the Force, but Senya had spent decades mastering the art of hand-to-hand combat. If Vaylin wanted to fight her, the outcome was inevitable.

As expected, Vaylin rushed at her with unrestrained fury, the pike becoming a spinning, whirling instrument of death in her nimble hands. Senya parried the initial flurry, redirecting each blow with subtle counters and deflections that allowed her to slow the momentum of Vaylin's charge. Then she switched from defense to offense, retaliating with her own sequence of quick cuts and thrusts meant not to kill, but to drive her daughter back, keeping her off balance and in perpetual retreat.

But instead of giving ground, Vaylin countered with another vicious assault, putting Senya on the defensive again. Surprised, the older woman staggered back, ducking to the side as the pike skimmed past her cheek close enough for her to feel the heat of the glowing blade. It clipped the tip of her shoulder, carving a small chunk from her armor.

The next blow nearly took her leg below the knee – at the very last instant Senya snatched her foot clear. But though she'd spared her limb, she was off balance and out of position. Vaylin pounced, hacking and slashing at her mother; what she lacked in technique she more than made up for in speed and relentless aggression.

Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.

She's stronger now. Faster. More confident.

But there were still flaws in Vaylin's form. Now that she had measured her opponent, Senya saw subtle imperfections she could exploit.

Her daughter leaped over the wall of fire between them and charged again. She was pressing the action, trying to overwhelm Senya and go for the quick kill. On the next pass, Senya let the tip of her lightsaber dip, offering a brief opening. As expected, Vaylin seized on the sudden vulnerability. But Senya was ready; anticipating her daughter's strike she sidestepped the blow and got in close enough to throw an elbow into Vaylin's chest, staggering her back.

Vaylin caught her footing a step before she stumbled into the nearby flames. Enraged, she rushed her mother again, redoubling her efforts. Senya continued to feint and bait her opponent, using her own aggression against her to control the battle. She could sense her daughter's frustration mounting as the battle dragged on – her attacks became more desperate, more frenzied. Time and time again Vaylin saw what she thought was an opportunity to end the battle in a single blow, only to have it snatched away at the last instant by her elusive foe.

Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin's attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve.

"You still fight with too much raw emotion," Senya grunted as she parried another blow, hoping there was still some part of the little girl she had raised inside the savage creature in front of her. "It clouds your mind."

"You sound like SCORPIO," Vaylin sneered, swiping ineffectually at the air where her target had been a split second before. "Always talking about logic and reason."

"Is that who you take orders from now?" Senya pressed. "A machine?"

Vaylin flicked her wrist, hurtling Senya through the air to slam against the hull of one of the broken vessels surrounding the camp. Senya crumpled to the ground, momentarily stunned.

"SCORPIO is not the Empress!" Vaylin snarled, striding towards her fallen opponent. "She commands the GEMINI fleet, but they all answer to me. I am the one who sits on the Eternal Throne!"

Shaking her head to clear the fog, Senya rose to one knee. A few meters away on either side, twin rows of flames blazed, the acrid smoke stinging her eyes and nostrils.

She can't defeat me in hand-to-hand combat, but she could still kill me anytime she likes. She's been toying with me this whole time.

"Why does the throne even matter to you?" she asked her daughter, still trying to reason with her.

Her question froze Vaylin in her tracks, giving Senya enough time to get back up on her feet.

"Your brother always wanted to be the Emperor," Senya reminded her. "But you never used to care about that."

"Zakuul needs a strong ruler," Vaylin replied, speaking slowly. "And the throne is mine, by birth and by right."

"Those sound like SCORPIO's words," Senya told her. "But I don't believe that's what you really want."

For several seconds Vaylin didn't answer, the silence broken only by the crackling flames.

"You know what I want mother—to kill you!"

Vaylin hurled her lightsaber pike like a spear, looking to impale Senya against the hull of the broken shuttle. But Senya anticipated the move, and rolled out of the way. The blade sliced through the metal plates and plunged deep into the side of the vessel.

A shrill whine rose like a scream: the sound of pressurized coolant spewing from a punctured hyperdrive. Senya had just long enough to register what had happened before the damaged hyperdrive exploded.”- Senya is able to contend with a vastly more powerful opponent in Vaylin."

-A Mother's Hope

Senya easily catches Skytroopers off-guard and dispatches them.

Vaylin is incapable of besting Senya in a hand to hand/lightsabers only battle.

“She (Vaylin) can't defeat me in hand-to-hand combat, but she could still kill me anytime she likes. She's been toying with me this whole time.”

-A Mother's Hope

Senya is able to contend with Vaylin for an extended length of time with no visible fatigue, despite being at a disadvantage in augmentation.

Senya is able to easily see the flaws in Vaylin's form in their duel.

“But there were still flaws in Vaylin's form. Now that she had measured her opponent, Senya saw subtle imperfections she could exploit.”

- A Mother's Hope

Senya defeats several of Valkorion's Natheman warriors, tasked to keep watch on a young Vaylin. She defeats them with what is apparently incredible ease.

Note that Senya repeatedly activates and deactivates her lightsaber throughout the fight. This is an example of Trakata, a lightsaber form based on the ability to confuse and disorient one's opponents by doing exactly what she does in the fight.

Senya defends against Vaylin at first, then counters and locks Vaylin in a constant state retreat.

"Senya parried the initial flurry, redirecting each blow with subtle counters and deflections that allowed her to slow the momentum of Vaylin's charge. Then she switched from defense to offense, retaliating with her own sequence of quick cuts and thrusts meant not to kill, but to drive her daughter back, keeping her off balance and in perpetual retreat."

- A Mother's Hope

Senya fights and kills several of Vaylin's Knights in combat, doing so easily. (If the player follows the Dark Side path the Knights are replaced by Mandalorians.)

Senya is able to anticipate Vaylin's movements, and is ultimately able to get Vaylin to do exactly what she wants her daughter to do.

"Her daughter leaped over the wall of fire between them and charged again. She was pressing the action, trying to overwhelm Senya and go for the quick kill. On the next pass, Senya let the tip of her lightsaber dip, offering a brief opening. As expected, Vaylin seized on the sudden vulnerability. But Senya was ready; anticipating her daughter's strike she sidestepped the blow and got in close enough to throw an elbow into Vaylin's chest, staggering her back."

- A Mother's Hope

Senya, with the Outlander and Arcann, fight and defeat a now unchained Empress Vaylin. (Video shows both light AND dark endings for this part of the game.)

Vaylin's attacks come at "blinding speeds" during Senya's first duel with her. Senya is still able to keep up with her.

"Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin's attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve."

- A Mother's Hope

Senya is a master of hand to hand combat.

"Senya had spent decades mastering the art of hand-to-hand combat. If Vaylin wanted to fight her, the outcome was inevitable."

- A Mother's Hope

Senya casually defeats several Skytroopers.

Dun Moch:

Senya is able to distract Vaylin long enough to regain her footing.

"Why does the throne even matter to you?" she asked her daughter, still trying to reason with her.

Her question froze Vaylin in her tracks, giving Senya enough time to get back up on her feet."

- A Mother's Hope

Force Abilities:


Senya pushes a Knight and Skytroopers into exploding barrels to kill them. She catches them off-guard, performing the feat easily.

Senya, with the help of Lana Beniko and the Outlander, is able to lift the Gravestone out of the swamp on Zakuul. While this feat could mostly be contributed to the Outlander, it's important to note that it took all three of them to achieve this; meaning Senya's contribution to the feat was in no way a small one.

Senya is able to easily pull debris and collapsed ceiling out of a doorway blocking her path to the severely wounded Arcann.

Refer back to Senya's battle with the Knights/Mandalorians in KOTET. Senya is able to unleash a blast of Force energy that repels her attackers. You can rewatch that video, or just look at this screenshot.

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Senya understands how to perform a Force ritual capable of healing Arcann's wounds. Though it is likely this is the only ritual Senya knows how to perform.


Senya has displayed the ability to will herself into a person's mind via meditation. She does this when she enters the Outlander's mind in their attempt to defeat Valkorion before he possesses the Outlander.

Force Sense:

Senya feels Vaylin's extreme pain from over a long distance.


Senya's reflexes have been honed for three decades.

“Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.”

- A Mother's Hope

Senya is a skilled hand to hand combatant

"Senya had spent decades mastering the art of hand-to-hand combat. If Vaylin wanted to fight her, the outcome was inevitable."

- A Mother's Hope

Senya is able to keep up with Vaylin's attacks at "blinding speed".

"Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin's attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve."

- A Mother's Hope

Apologies if the thread seems crowded with videos, almost all of of what Senya has appeared in is in-game cutscenes, so I didn't have any choice but to use a lot of video clips.


Chirrut Imwe Respect Thread

Imwe is by far the most interesting character in "Rogue One" that can be used in vs forums, so I decided to make an RT for him.

I may or may not do Respect Threads for a couple other "Rogue One" characters, I haven't decided yet.

With that out of the way, respect Chirrut Imwe.

*Will update this soon, I hope.

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Connection to the Force:

First, Chirrut Imwe's Force abilities must be explained. The fact, or at least the implication, is that Chirrut is not actually Force Sensitive. As we know, all living creatures are connected via the Living Force, Chirrut (and presumably the other Guardians of the Whills) are trained to use this minimal connection to maximum effect. This is why Chirrut is able to move and fight at almost Jedi levels. He is stated as having no Force abilities, which I interpret as meaning he has no ability with the Force, at least not any ability that would have warranted Jedi training.

"Deeply spiritual, Chirrut Îmwe believes all living things are connected through the Force. His sightless eyes do not prevent him from being a highly skilled warrior. Though he lacks Force abilities, this warrior monk has rigorously honed his body through intense physical and mental discipline."


"Chirrut Imwe was not a Jedi. He was not, by any definition, a Force user. But what he could do, what he had spent years upon years striving for the enlightenment to do, was-sometimes-feel the Force around him."

- Guardians of the Whills

Force Sense:

Chirrut Imwe is able to sense the Kyber crystal around Jyn Erso's neck.

"“Would you trade that necklace for a glimpse into your future?”

The voice of the pilgrim. Jyn frowned and took another step forward, trying to locate the source.

“Yes, I’m speaking to you.” Without the monotone sobriety of the chant, the voice seemed touched with gentle humor.

She found the speaker at last, seated on the ground a few steps down the line of stalls. He was dressed simply, in a dark shirt and charcoal robe in the local style, and his smooth skin fought gamely against the years that infected his words. His eyes were milky and unfocused, and at his side lay a sturdy wooden staff in the dust. Are there trees left on Jedha? Jyn wondered.

“Your necklace?” the man repeated.

Jyn felt the crystal against her skin. Her necklace was still hidden, buried under layers of cloth.

And the man was blind.

“I am Chirrut Îmwe,” the man said.

“How did you know I was wearing a necklace?” Jyn asked, and felt like a fool, like a mark, even as she spoke.

Chirrut’s next words only confirmed her instinct. “For that answer you must pay.”

It was the reply of a con artist. Jyn shook her attention from Chirrut to search for his partner (he must have had a partner, one who had spotted her necklace somehow) and immediately found her quarry: a hulk of a man with hair as wild as Chirrut’s was neat, in a filthy civilian flight suit and battered red plastoid armor half concealed under a wearable tarp. On his back was a generator unit connected to the blaster cannon he held casually in one hand. He stood with the stoic confidence of a bodyguard, unafraid of thieves or stormtroopers.

“How did you know I was wearing a necklace?” Jyn asked the second man, who shook his head slowly and snorted. Under other circumstances, she might have admired his weapon. Now she didn’t want to give him the satisfaction.

“What do you know of kyber crystals?” Chirrut asked. His tone was patient, prompting.

She should have turned away. Refused to be lured in. Yet Chirrut’s voice seemed to resonate like his chant and demand an answer.

“My father,” she eventually said, and it tasted less bitter than she expected. “He said they powered the Jedi lightsabers.”

Chirrut nodded approvingly. Jyn half parted her lips, tried to speak before the blind man’s voice could enter her skull again, but another sound broke the spell instead. “Jyn.” Cassian, sharp and low. “Come on.”

She wrenched away from Chirrut, took three strides at Cassian’s side before the pilgrim’s next words found her: “The strongest stars have hearts of kyber.”"

- "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story" Novelization

Chirrut is able to sense Bohdi Rook in the next cell over, despite neither Cassian Andor, nor Baze Malbus, being previously aware that the pilot was in the adjacent cell.

“Who’s the one in the next cell?”

Cassian tore his eyes from the guards and glanced over to Chirrut. It was the first time the blind man had spoken for nearly an hour.

Chirrut spoke softly. “What’s wrong with him?”

- Rogue One Novelization

Chirrut Imwe was able to sense Cassian Andor's purpose on Eadu, killing Galen Erso.

“Does he look like a killer?”

She was watching Cassian and Bodhi descend into the mud when she heard Chirrut’s voice. She turned to look and saw he was speaking to Baze.

“No,” Baze said, after a moment of thought. “He has the face of a friend.”

“Who are you talking about?” she asked.

Baze eyed her appraisingly. “Captain Andor,” he said, flat.

She should have been irritated by the curt explanation. Instead she could muster only vague confusion. “Why do you ask that?” she said, looking to Chirrut now. “What do you mean, Does he look like a killer?

“The Force moves darkly near a creature that’s about to kill,” Chirrut answered. He might have added, As simple as that.

- Rogue One Novelization

Chirrut Imwe senses Baze Malbus' anger over the destruction of Jedha City.

"“I sense anger in you,” Chirrut said.

Let the Imperials sense it, too, Baze thought."

-Rogue One Novelization

Chirrut Imwe is able to sense the coming of the Empire's AT-ACT walkers, warning Baze and the rebels about their approach.

Combat Ability:

Chirrut Imwe's physicals are heightened by rigorous training physically, mentally, and spiritually. He is also a skilled warrior with supernatural senses.

"Deeply spiritual, Chirrut Îmwe believes all living things are connected through the Force. His sightless eyes do not prevent him from being a highly skilled warrior. Though he lacks Force abilities, this warrior monk has rigorously honed his body through intense physical and mental discipline."

Chirrut Imwe is an incredibly graceful fighter, capable of taking down large groups of enemies on his own.

"Chirrut was inside the bulk of the squad in two strides. His staff was suddenly in motion, sweeping behind legs and twisting arms back unnaturally. Jyn felt clumsy and graceless—where she had thrown her whole body into every strike with her truncheons, Chirrut dropped stormtroopers with a delicate whirl, a flick of his wrist."

-Rogue One Novelization

"He was mocking them now, in a voice full of gentle mirth. “Is your foot all right?” Like a dancer, he leapt a step to the side as another stormtrooper fired his rifle. The bolt found one of the trooper’s squad mates, and Chirrut only shook his head sadly."

-Rogue One Novelization

"Even the leaders of the Rebellion rarely spoke about the Jedi. Had men like Chirrut been common? Men so certain in their faith that they wielded it like a shield? Men so disciplined that, even blind, they could down a dozen stormtroopers with nothing more than a stick?"

- Rogue One Novelization

"Neither man took the bait. Cassian ran his hands over his face, scratched at his beard. Both of the Guardians were formidable fighters, to be sure; and Chirrut, Jedi or not, half mad or overzealous or sincere, was an echo of an era the Empire had nearly erased."

- Rogue One Novelization

"CASSIAN WAS BLIND BENEATH HIS hood, but although he lacked Chirrut’s preternatural senses, he knew how to listen."

- Rogue One Novelization

Chirrut Imwe's heightened senses allow him to shoot a TIE Fighter out of the sky.


Chirrut Imwe, despite not being Force Sensitive, is attuned enough with his innate connection to the Force as a living creature, that he is fast enough to dodge blaster fire at close range.

"Chirrut leapt between the troopers’ bolts as if their passing pushed him aside, but his fortune was not others’ fortune."

-Rogue One Novelization

"But Chirrut was not dead. The bolt had been aimed with precision, yet Chirrut was not dead. The merest twitch of his head, a glance to one side, had saved him and sent the energy flashing by, toward the captives and over Cassian’s shoulder."

- Rogue One Novelization

Force Protect:

By calling, vocally, on the Force, Chirrut and the other "Guardians of the Whills" are able to shield themselves from harm.

"Chirrut Îmwe felt the warmth of an alien star on his skin and a sea breeze pawing at his robes. The heel of his staff dug into hard-packed sand. Beneath the odors of conflagration and death was the perfume of jungle flowers and the sweet stink of dirt beetles. Beyond the electric snap of blaster bolts he heard a high-pitched chittering—the noise of a beast he had never encountered. To this cacophony, he added his voice:

“I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.”

Whatever Chirrut had become in his life—and without the temple he could not truly be a Guardian of the Whills; without joy and frivolity he could not be a clown and jokester among sober peers; without the Holy City he could not be a protector of his beloved world—whatever he was, he was not a warrior at heart, and the events of the day had eroded his spirit. While Baze, his brother and ward, had embraced his role with vicious resolve, Chirrut had fought and run and killed because fighting and running and killing were necessary.

Now they were necessary no longer, and he was glad.

“I am one with the Force,” he said again, “and the Force is with me.” The words echoed inside him. I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.

Baze yelled his name from the bunker. Chirrut did not stop.

He felt hot bolts whip past him, heard leather gloves squeeze metal triggers, and turned his body as if shouldering his way through a crowd. He tapped the heel of his staff, feeling his way toward the console by the traces of buried cables. He listened for telltale echoes, where the noise of the battle resounded off terminals and equipment.

He did all this without thinking. The art of zama-shiwo, the inward eye of the outward hand, attuned his breathing and heartbeat to his chant. It was his chant that guided his motions, controlled his pace as he strode forward. I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.

“Chirrut!” Baze called. “Come back!”

Baze was terrified. Chirrut was not. In the instant before he’d risen from the bunker, he’d questioned his own wisdom: How might he separate the will of the Force from his will, his ego, demanding action where action was unneeded? But there was no doubt in his heart now. The Force expressed itself through simplicity, and all it asked of him was to walk.

I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.

His staff rapped metal. The side of a console. The chant guided him to its front and he glided his fingers across buttons and readouts. He touched a broad, hinged handle recessed in the console: a master switch, if ever there’d been one. A particle bolt reverberated centimeters from Chirrut’s left ear as he urged the switch forward and felt it lock into place.

I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.

He smiled softly and thought of Bodhi, the strange pilot who smelled of Jedha beneath his Imperial suit.

Chirrut’s chant was faltering now. With the switch activated, his path had become obscured. He listened to the storm of blasterfire and heard Baze’s voice again: “Chirrut! Come here!” So he turned toward Baze and the bunker and began retracing his steps. The rhythm of his breath was off, and the thousand noises and odors and sensations all about him failed to coalesce; each tugged at him, insisted on his exclusive attention.

Then there was only one noise: a terrible thunder like the world splitting open. He was driven forward as pain flashed through his old bones and every injury he’d ever suffered ignited. Somehow, as Chirrut impacted the dirt and rolled to one side, he was aware of Baze shouting his name again.

He couldn’t feel his staff. He couldn’t feel his hand, except for a terrible throbbing and its numb weight at the end of his arm. But the art of zama-shiwo had much to say about controlling pain, and Chirrut permitted his blood to spill without experiencing suffering. The violence inflicted upon his body troubled him less than the violence he had inflicted upon others"

- Rogue One Novelization

"She’d never really believed in the stories. The Jedi, yes, but not the legend.

“No Jedi anymore,” Chirrut’s partner said. “Only dreamers like this fool.”

Chirrut shrugged mildly. “The Force did protect me.”

I protected you,” his partner replied."

- Rogue One Novelization


HK-47 Respect Thread

I noticed that HK-47, one of my favorite characters, doesn't really have an extensive respect thread. So I figured I would try my best to make one for him.

Quick thanks to some of my friends for helping me find the scans/quotes for this thread that I couldn't find myself. Also, thanks to ShootingNova, as I got a few of these from his RT for Meetra Surik's party. As well as to the youtubers who's gameplay I used in this thread.

I want to make a note though. I know the gameplay portions I use are heavily reliant on game mechanics to make the games more fun to play. However, they're still good evidence, as it's only logical to assume that if a character is chosen to be a boss fight that they're obviously supposed to be a challenge or a threat to the characters in-universe.

As with the other threads I've made, let me know if there's anything I missed and let me know what I could do better next time. This is my first Respect Thread, so I apologize if it seems disjointed or somewhat poorly made. I will probably continue to update this as time goes on or as I learn new things about HK-47. But this is most of the relevant information I could find through other threads, videos, and the dialogue files for both the first and second KOTOR games.

With all that out of the way, respect HK-47.

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History and Accolades:

HK-47 was the personal bodyguard of the Sith Lord Darth Revan. Being a Sith Lord, Revan would likely allow nothing less than the best to be his personal guard, this would place HK-47 above any soldier or, possibly, Sith in the entirety of Revan's Empire with the exception of Darth Malak.

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HK-47 acted as Revan's personal battle droid.

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Revan though it ironic that it was believed only an organic could defeat a Jedi. Something HK-47 ultimately proved wrong.

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HK-47 is an effective combatant.

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HK-47 is practiced in psychological warfare tactics.

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It should also be noted that HK-47 was still considered "advanced" by the time of the Galactic Civil War. Suggesting that only top of the line droids of that era were at all superior to HK-47 at the time.

HK-47's base stats in the actual game, while they are mechanics and can't be taken literally as canon, can do a good job at giving a basic outline of how effective he is as a droid as far as his more basic droid functions (intelligence, basic computer skills, etc) go, his stats in these areas in-game are at a relatively high level for starting stats; indicating that HK-47 is a very advanced droid even before the upgrades he would later receive from Darth Malgus and the Returned Revan.

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HK-47 is capable of incredible acts of destruction in devotion to completing his objective.

"Rumored to have been created by Czerka Corp. to eliminate the heads of rival corporations, HK-47 is quite capable of laying waste to an entire building in an effort to dispose of a single target, as he has demonstrated on more than one occasion in the past."- Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide.

Basic Skills: HK-47 is proficient in the use of many types of weaponry and other forms of combat.

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HK-47's assassination protocols are so deeply integrated that they're practically the fiber of his existence.

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HK-47 underwent several upgrades after his defeat on The Foundry, making him deadlier than he was before.

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Armor: HK-47's armor is made of durasteel, an incredibly durable metal often used in the hulls of ships. It's also likely that HK-47 would have utilized personal shields, considering the purpose he was built for, and the importance that Darth Revan placed on HK's success; though that is pure speculation, it's not unreasonable to believe.

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Combat Skills and Feats: HK-47 is one of the most accomplished droids in the Star Wars universe, having accomplished feats and fought against people that few would be able to oppose. The many beatings that HK-47 underwent throughout his long career are also evidence of high durability, though as a droid made of durasteel that isn't unexpected.

HK-47 is capable of "terminating" almost anything he would be set loose upon by Meetra Surik.

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HK-47 was able to contend with a strike team consisting of the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox, the Champion of the Hunt, and Cipher 9 on the Foundry.

HK-47, after being rebuilt by Darth Malgus, contends with another strike team consisting of either the previous strike team or their Republic counterparts (Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Meteor, and Voidhound.) (HK fight ends around 5 minute mark)

HK-47 is able to briefly fight against a Coalition strike team consisting of the eight protagonists in the Temple of Sacrifice, without the aid of Revan. (HK appears from about 1:50 to 3:07)

HK-47 explains how to kill a Jedi to Meetra Surik. Suggesting that HK-47 has killed Jedi in the past, most likely during his service to Darth Revan during the Jedi Civil War.

During the Galactic Civil War, HK-47 is able to fight and contend with numerous spacers on Mustafar. This is in spite of being several thousand years out of date and facing opponents with superior technology. (HK appears at about the 13:15 mark and continues to the end of the video until his defeat.)

Unique Abilities: HK-47 is presumably corrupted by the Dark Side of the Force in "Shadow of Revan", the Dark Revan having possibly imbued him with Dark Side energies. This would have made HK-47 far more dangerous than he had ever been in the past, and would explain why he was able to fight several Force users at once instead of being killed almost immediately.

"HK-47 has been imbued with a tremendous amount of raw force essence. "

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"He has even corrupted my friend"

- Revan's spirit in "Shadow of Revan."

HK-47 can utilize Force imbued shots from his weapons.

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Kylo Ren: Powers and Abilities Analysis

I want to make it abundantly clear that this is NOT a Respect Thread for Kylo Ren. This is simply a thread meant to analyze and attempt to rank some of his more impressive feats. For a comprehensive Respect Thread, look to DarthDuelist's Kylo Ren Respect Thread.

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Force Powers:

Ren demonstrated use of four different Force abilities in TFA, all of which he performed well with, easily above average. While none of the uses were immensely impressive, they were still well above what the average Jedi Master has exhibited. The abilities demonstrated are as follows:






“The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses.”

-Star Wars: The Force Awakens novelization

This is, arguably, Ren's most impressive showing of power. Few people, that I am aware of, have ever been able to block a lightsaber blade with the Force. Now, I'm not saying this makes Ren some immensely powerful Force user on par with the likes of Darth Vader, but given how heavily hindered Kylo was at the time, in conjunction with any adrenaline or "will to survive" style amp in place, I feel it safe to assume that Kylo might be capable of doing this under normal circumstances. For reference, Satele Shan, one of the most powerful Jedi of the Old Republic era in Legends, was able to perform this feat with great difficulty, nearly failing altogether. The feat in question is below, taken from the "Hope" trailer for "Star Wars: The Old Republic".

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Some accolades for Satele, supporting my claims of her strength for the comparison to Kylo.

"Renowned for her wisdom and powerful connection to the Force, Master Satele Shan is the voice and conscience of the Jedi Order. She is a direct descendant of Bastila Shan, the legendary Jedi who battled Darth Revan centuries ago."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Website

"The secret son of Jace Malcom and Satele Shan, two of the Republic's greatest military and Jedi champions, Theron was destined for greatness."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Website

"Satele Shan, guardian of the Republic, whose words inspired armies. They had fought separately, on the Ash Plains of Lenico and in the asteroid-hives of Gelpog the Tyrant. Together (Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, Bela Kiwiiks, and Syo Bakarn) were invincible! They fought twenty thousand years of evil, incarnate in the Sith Emperor and his servants. They never faltered. Of them all, it was Satele who made me the most proud."

―Ngani Zho (Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Lost Suns)

Force Stasis

Kylo is proficient in the use of Force Stasis.

Ren casually puts both Poe Dameron and a blaster bolt in stasis.

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“Perceiving the threat, Kylo Ren reacted immediately. A hand rose sharply, palm facing toward the unknown assailant. The gesture was merely the physical manifestation of something infinitely more powerful and entirely unseen. It intercepted the discharge from the pilot’s weapon, freezing it in mid-air as effectively as any solid barrier.”

The Force Awakens Novelization

This is impressive partially because Ren is the only person in the movies who has demonstrated this ability, as well as (mostly) due to the fact that Ren performed this feat so casually, and was able to keep the bolt in stasis until he took Poe onto his shuttle. Meaning locking a bolt of pure energy in a stasis field and then keeping it there, takes a fraction of a fraction of Ren's power.

It can also be noted that Ren does this later to Rey, however Ren's feat with Poe and the blaster bolt is the mosre impressive of the two.


Ren is skilled in the use of TKKylo Ren's most impressive feat of TK, so far, is his casual pushing of Rey. At this point in time, Ren was severely hindered, both physically and mentally. As well, Rey was noticeably enraged by the sight of Kylo, who she'd just witnessed murder Han Solo, her only father figure.

“Before she could fire, Ren raised a hand, halting her. She strained against him, her anger giving her strength. But she couldn’t fire. He was struggling also, against her newly discovered ability, as well as the wound inflicted by Chewbacca’s bowcaster. Gritting his teeth, he flung his arm sideways in a single, powerful gesture—and the blaster went flying out of her hand. Inhaling deeply, he gestured again, and this time it was Rey who went flying, to smash into a tree nearby and slide to the ground, dazed and hurt.”

The Force Awakens novelization

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Again, keep in mind that Kylo was hindered.

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to this knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.”

The Force Awakens novelization

“Amid the rising bedlam and confusion, Kylo Ren struggled to stand.”

The Force Awakens novelization

Obviously this isn't super impressive, but given Ren is able to perform TK feats this potent even while severely injured, it speaks to what he should be capable of at full strength.


Ren's best TP feats, arguably, are extracting information from Poe, and causing Rey to fall unconscious with nothing but a simple gesture.

It should be said that Poe had resisted every interrogation technique up until this point, meaning Poe was far from weak minded. For comparison, the Redeemed Revan, during the Jedi Civil War arguably had more difficulty performing a similar feat against a Sith Trooper captured by the Republic on Manaan, as with the Satele comparison, the feat for Revan is (obviously) a Legends feat.

“General Hux was waiting for him. As expected, the interrogation had not taken long. The senior officer did not have to ask if it had been successful. No matter how determined the prisoner, not matter his or her individual resolve, Ren’s questioning invariably produced the same results.”

-The Force Awakens novelization

As previously mentioned, Kylo Ren was also able to cause Rey to fall unconscious with a mere gesture.

“The squad leader saluted, lingered a moment to look on in fascination as at a gesture from Ren the young woman standing motionless before him collapsed, and then he hastened to relay the command lest his interest in something that was none of his business be noticed.”

The Force Awakens novelization

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This really shouldn't require much explanation, only the strongest Force users seen in either Canon or Legends have ever been seen incapacitating other people with mere gestures. While it's nothing that screams "top 5 Force users ever", it's still very impressive.

Obviously Ren isn't as powerful as the Jedi and Sith titans of Canon or Legends, but what he has exhibited is incredibly impressive. Given his Skywlalker heritage, it's only logical that he showcase a lot of raw power. Based on his Force abilities, it should be clear that Ren is on the same level as an above average Jedi Master.

Connection to the Force:

As a Skywalker, Ren's connection to the Force is, obviously, immense.

“An incredible power, an incredible force, and incredible potential that was, like many young people, sort of misguided and unclear. And the story for him is one of conflict, not just internal conflict but external conflict. And it’s what makes him a rather interesting villain.”

Interview with J.J. Abrams

Director JJ Abrams then builds on this, musing: "It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally.

Interview with J.J. Abrams and Adam Driver

“When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood sharp in contrast to the commanding tone he had used with Hux. “I have never had a student with such promise—before you.” Ren Straightened. “It is your teachings that make me strong, Supreme Leader.”

Snoke demurred. “It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side—and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have—you.” He paused, reminiscing. “Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

“He knew our child would be strong with the force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

Lightsaber Skills:

Many people try making the claim that Kylo is a poor swordsman, and while it's true that his swordsmanship is somewhat lacking, at least in comparison to his Force ability.

Ren's saber skills are the reason the Jedi Order fell. Implying that Ren would have outdueled the majority the Jedi he'd faced in combat, rather than relied on his Force abilities.

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Ren fight Finn in a brief saber duel, it's revealed during the duel that Kylo was toying with Finn, and that the blow Finn landed on him was sheer luck. Once Ren began taking the duel seriously, he quickly and easily dispatched the former Storm Trooper.

“Drawing himself up, a towering figure in the snow, Ren did not even bother to gesture. “I’m going to kill you for it.” He rushed forward. Despite his feat, Finn raised the beam to defend himself. Ren lunged, struck—Finn parried. Shards of light flew, illuminating the snow and the surrounding vegetation. Drawing back slightly, Ren considered his unexpectedly determined opponent, then resumed his assault with a vengeance.

Finn blocked him again and again, once letting the other man’s beam slide against his own and harmlessly off to one side. He counterattacked, to no avail. The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.

At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren’s arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end.

Advancing relentlessly, he was driven by something that Finn could not even sense, far less counter. Still the ex-trooper fought back, until Ren landed a blow that cut across Finn’s chest and sent the lightsaber flying from his hand. It landed in the snow six meters distant. It was over.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

It should be noted that Finn is stated to have been in the top 1% of Storm Troopers in the First Order, and is consistently portrayed as one of the First Order's best.

Finn's Respect Thread (credit to WolfMyth209)

Ren duel with Rey. Ren is the obvious superior, constantly forcing Rey back until she opens herself more fully to the Force at the end. It's also important to realize that Kylo was likely holding back, as he wasn't trying to actually kill her. This is made know by his saying that he could teach her about the Force, as well as Snoke's orders, his exact words being "bring her to me".

“But she had no time to ponder his comment, nor was she inclined to do so anyway; she was to consumed with rage. Holding the haft of the lightsaber in both hands, she ignited the beam—and charged.

Ren met her with his own weapon alight. Expecting weakness, he encountered only strength. Her skill with the device was raw at best, but it was backed by a fury that was as new to his experience as it was unexpected.

When the beams of their lightsabers crossed, the resulting burst of energy lit an entire section of forest.

To an observer at a distance, it would have appeared as if a series of small explosions was going off in the depths of the forest. Blow after blow landed as lightsaber struck against lightsaber. Though Ren was bigger and stronger than Rey, their struggle had nothing to do with physical size. What she lacked in mass, she made up for in ferocity.

For a while she actually drove him backward, until he regained his self-assurance and in turn pressed her. The fight continued to shift back and forth; first he gained the advantage, then an enraged Rey took it back.

There was a vast rumbling, as of a continent sighing, and a gigantic chunk of forest behind Rey simply collapsed downward, leaving her fighting on the edge of a cliff so high that the newly formed surface below could not be seen through the rising cloud of dust.

Ren held his lightsaber, poised to strike. “I could kill you right now. But there is another way.”

Breathing hard, Rey looked up in disgust at the man looming above her. “You’re a monster.”

“No. You need a teacher.” He was beseeching and insistent all at once. “I can show you the ways of the Force!”

Slowly she shook her head. “The Force?” That was what this was about? Instead of moving to defend herself, Rey closed her eyes. Ren hesitated, confused by her actions. A long moment passed, in which Ren sensed a change in the air, a change in her. Then she opened her eyes and attacked, viciously, in a way she didn’t know she was capable of, striking again and again as Ren was slowly driven back. The flaring energy from the interacting lightsabers was more pronounced than ever in the flurry of her attack. And—Ren went down.

He was up again in an instant, but not in time to fully deflect a following blow from Rey’s weapon. He succeeded in blocking it, but he still took the full force of the strike against the haft of his own lightsaber. The weapon went flying into the snow, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses.”

The Force Awakens novelization

It's obvious that Kylo Ren is a skilled swordsman. While not on the same level as somebody like Obi-Wan Kenobi or the other great swordsman of the mythos, he's more than skilled enough to hold his own against an average Jedi.



Kylo has displayed high levels of durability. Upon his murdering Han Solo, Chewbacca fired a blast from his bowcaster and landed a direct hit on Kylo's side. This is quite impressive, as Chewie's bowcaster has demonstrated itself to essentially be the .50 cal of the Star Wars universe; the weapon being capable of flinging heavily armored Storm Troopers backwards a few meters. The bowcaster even sent one Stormtrooper flying into a wall so hard that his armor broke (unfortunately, I couldn't find a clip for this particular scene, however I'm certain anyone whose seen the movie knows what I'm talking about). The fact that Kylo stayed stationary when hit and that he pretty much recovered immediately, suggests incredible durability. Another, more minor feat, is how he beats his wound to inflict pain; pain with which he fuels himself. Kylo Ren had the physical strength to easily hold a grown man off the ground with one arm, indicating incredible strength and stamina; as Kylo was apparently able to hold him up indefinitely. (Couldn't find a clip of the Stormtrooper smashing into the wall)

“Reaching out, a black-gloved hand clutched the startled lieutenant and pulled him violently forward. That metallic visage was now close, closer than Mitaka had ever been to it. As the officer struggled to breathe in that remorseless grasp, Kylo Ren’s voice took on a timbre lower and more menacing than any the lieutenant had ever heard.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

Ultimately, I think it's very obvious that Kylo is far more powerful and far more skilled than the majority of people give him credit for. Ren is more than capable of besting an average Jedi Master, and could arguably even contend with (at least) the NuCanon versions of some of the PT era Jedi Council.

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