DarthAnt66's forum posts

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1  Edited By DarthAnt66

@lordofthelight: Dude, there's no reason to type that long. Reading your posts can be dreadful enough - cut that to a third next-time.

Ackbar clearly states that they won't last against those star destroyers at such a close range. He especially mentions their power as the main cause to it. This only serves to reinforce Gallia's feat.

What an atrocious false equivalency. Capital ships can't dodge the turbolasers of other capital ships. Capital ships can tank the fire of snub fighters. Snub fighters can dodge the turbolasers of capital ships. Snub fighters can't tank the fire of snub fighters. See the difference?

I can assure you, the last thing on the author's mind was how to keep Adi Gallia's power level below that of Malgus as he wrote the showing in the manual there. The simplest explanation has to be considered keeping in mind the feat in question and its context, not cross era comparisons because that is your luxury. As it is there is absolutely no argument for why the showing is holistically not applicable, but that's actually later

-- and now we have a red herring. I never mentioned the intent of the author. However, game mechanics are S-Canon. They don't have the authority to radically shift the general foundations of the continuity, nor create sweeping plot holes throughout most stories.

-That starship fire would be present everywhere in the battle. The capital ship fire only comes into play when she comes close to the ship at a reasonable length.

False. Capital ships can hit her wherever she goes - they're capital ships. They can shoot from space and hit a planet. Snub fighters have far more limited range. Rewatch the Falcon chasing that rogue Tie Fighter as they approach the Death Star to see how close snub fighters need to be to shoot one-another. That's not to say that threat of turbolasers doesn't also increase as she approaches due to accuracy, etc., but the same is obviously true for snub fighters. Given there's no way of knowing which the prima guide is referring to, we shouldn't defer to the far more impression version over the one that easily fits within continuity.

Your argument that the concentration of ships varies may be correct, however the difference is marginally decent at best. That and there are extremely isolated instances when enemy ships move out of capital ships, that is, it doesn't happen during most of the battle, hence the concentration of ships near capital ships for most of the battle is loosely the same as that in other areas this is ignoring other things as a limited number of ships ganging up on one starfighter and other semantics that may or may not be crucial.

False. Enemy ships constantly pour out of enemy vessels - both in-film and especially in-games. Entire games are built around that premise, even.

-That the quote makes use of her force shield being effective at such a scenario, heavily implies that her normal ship defenses cannot sustain capital ship fire( that much is true and verified throughout the lore) and that it is effective to use force shield then.

Unlikely. If we looked at the game itself, I guarantee you that, even if you don't have a force shield on, you won't be getting one-shot by a turbolaser. The closer she gets to the capital ship, the more ships that will fire on her. The more ships that will fire on her, the greater chance her ship's natural shielding will falter. The greater chance her ship's natural shielding will falter, the better reason to use the Force to support the defense. Not that hard.

You hilariously say that this is used to "hype" the showing, but indeed, this confirms that the quote is talking about turbolaser bolts. Because though even one begins to accept your version that the concentration is higher near the capital ships, that honestly doesn't matter to any noticeable extent. The shields present can deflect the bolts of a certain level of power no matter how many bolts come their way. They begin to lose power due to duration. Hence, if 4 ships are present normally in the battle, but 9 near the capital ships, it doesn't matter because those 9 ships cannot fire simultaneously, to overload the shields( the odds on that are astronomically low), and hence the only thing that differs there is the frequency, which doesn't matter unless as I said( all ships fire at once). The shields can deflect a certain level of power for a certain duration of time, the only thing that can breach the shields is if the power is incredibly high or time runs out

This dynamic that you describe - "the shields present can deflect the bolts of a certain level of power no matter how many bolts come their way" - is textbook game mechanics. Obviously, if a thousand turbolasers simultaneously shot at Adi Gallia, she would die. The fact she wouldn't under these game mechanics makes their validity suspect. Likewise, Obi-Wan can't replenish his health by killing another stormtrooper (as shown in Battlefront II campaign), and Revan can't conjure a Force bubble that renders him invulnerable to every conceivable attack in the game for an indefinite period of time.

I'm skimming through the rest of this post. Let me know if I missed out anything relevant - I probably didn't.

You can simply ignore the whole wall of text, that doesn't change that holistically, technically, logically, by every perspective, the greatest and most imminent threat to her is the capital ship fire, hence force shields are especially effective to use in that situation.

Against a snub fighter, thirty snub fighters are a greater threat than slow, capital-ship turbolasers. We've seen this since the Trench Run in 1977.

To the holistic argument, Gallia is one of the best Jedi Masters in the Council, this in the prime of the Jedi. She has the same hierarchy in the Jedi Order as Malgus had in the Sith. By all accounts she is the cream of the crop, in an era that produces the best Jedi on average. Attributing a high tier feat to her is not at all an inconsistency. You class her as a third rate Jedi, simply because she hasn't had the exposure that Jedi you would class as among the best, like Mace or Kenobi have. Being one of the best members of the Jedi Council puts her easily at one of the best hierarchies that she can get, and obviously puts her capable of being better than Sith Lords among the best, should she have the showing to prove that, or the argument.

Hierarchical placement within the Jedi Order has little to do with holistics - or even power, for that matter.

So, yeah, I see no reason to assume the prima guide's supporting that she can tank turbolasers, and even if Leland Chee comes down and says that it does then it's just as irrelevant as a litany of other game mechanics that fall under the same umbrella.

No promises I can continue this discussion further though, depending on how long you next post is.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By DarthAnt66

@lordofthelight

The validity of game mechanics nowhere is related to this issue. The question is about Adi Gallia deflecting capital ship fire and whether the events taken in a quote assumed to be true are correct.

If game mechanics are inconsistent with the lore it's representing - which is the case with the notion Gallia is immune to multi-kilometer explosions - then it's fair to dismiss them. However, I don't think it's even necessary to dismiss these game mechanics, because there are ready alternate explanations available.

That starship fire would be present everywhere in the battle. The capital ship fire only comes into play when she comes close to the ship at a reasonable length.

I don't purport to be an expert of spaceships, but I'm pretty sure capital ships can shoot across laughably long distances compared to snub fighters. Beyond that, it still doesn't address my point. Look at this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCVWm20fU0A&t=3m21s. You're arguing that being directly on top of this hangar and five kilometers away from this hangar pose a comparable risk. That's wrong.

That the quote makes use of her force shield being effective at such a scenario, heavily implies that her normal ship defenses cannot sustain capital ship fire( that much is true and verified throughout the lore) and that it is effective to use force shield then.

You have to first prove the quote's talking about resisting city-pulverizing explosions before you further try to hype the quote.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3  Edited By DarthAnt66

@lordofthelight:

The picture is the one I posted. I just showed force shield among the force powers

Ah, I see it now. Can I have a bigger picture that isn't cropped and snipped around to verify the two are related?

Exactly, so why is this under dispute? It is referenced in game manuals here

It's referenced in the game manuals within the contexts of mechanics for the game.

Why? This is the simplest explanation-that the ship is under threat by the capital ship only. You could say that it is under threat by other starfighters near the capital ship but that is clearly not the intent of the wording there. To assume more convoluted explanations other than the simplest one that capital ship laser blasts are responsible is to go against Occam's razor and that even creates problems elsewhere in almost every other area

Oh boy. The simplest explanation is not that third-rate prequel trilogy Jedi are far more powerful than the preeminent and powerful Sith Lords of earlier ages, which is what you're contending. That is what "creates problems everywhere in almost every other area." The simplest explanation - especially when considering the suspect validity of game mechanics - is one that readily fits within the parameters of the quote without radically changing the entire continuity. Unsurprisingly, it's easy to find explanations that fit that description, but you're already rejecting them.

This isn't bad faith. This is just going by the simplest explanation there is other than creating complex ones to the quote

That doesn't preclude the argument from being bad faith.

Here's one-To get close to capital ships she'd inevitably have to deal with turbolaser shots in the battle in addition to anything else considering the main armaments of capital ships are turbolasers but if she was far from the battle, she'd mainly have to deal with the starfighters that the capital ship produces so the quote even removes that level of doubt there.

There would be a greater concentration of starships the closer she gets to a capital ship, especially if she's trying to destroy it.

It is the simplest and most reasonable assumption that in case she is nearing capital ships, she'd have to deal with the capital ship's main weapons isn't it?That is the most basic criteria that she has to be able to do, in case she wants to approach capital vehicle in the battle and she must be able to do this shouldn't she? The rest is just additional load to be dealt there

Why would Gallia "must be able to do this" to destroy enemy turbolasers? Do you also think all Jedi throughout history, including the SWTOR era and Jedi that easily scale below Malgus, have likewise needed Force barriers to deflect city-pulverizing shots when facing enemy capital ships? Clearly not, so I'm not sure why you're so stuck on figuring out alternate means on how Gallia can overcome the odds.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By DarthAnt66

@lordofthelight said:
@darthant66 said:

@lordofthelight: Maybe I'm missing context that you're seeing, but what makes you think "force barrier" is referring to an actual Force shield and not general ship shielding? Not that that feat puts Gallia close to Malgus regardless, though.

It's classified as force powers attributed to Adi Gallia in the manual.

Cool, picture?

@lordofthelight said:
@darthant66 said:
@lordofthelight said:
Literally the whole of the TOR era is gameplay. Like no gameplay, no Revan's feats on the Star Forge, no Korriban etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuDqNLgVHv8

None of these feats hinge on gameplay mechanics, BTW.

I don't see why "this" particular feat isn't applicable, given that it is a description of force powers that a character uses in the game though.

Also, maybe I am missing something, but what makes you think that any feat performed in a game by a user that controls the main character isn't "gameplay"? Unless you guys have a different convention for "gameplay" that I have missed, why should Revan's Korriban feat not be "gameplay" given the user literally plays that section of the game there?

Revan's gauntlets on the Star Forge, Korriban, etc. are affirmed in non-gameplay settings, like cutscenes or encyclopedia entries. Note that game mechanics don't hold the same validity otherwise - they can be dismissed if there's conflict with higher material like novels, etc.

The idea that Gallia can resist starship fire already fits within the context of the lore given TOTJ Jedi do that also. The prima guide never states Gallia can resist turbolaser fire though - there's many other reasons why it could be useful near capital ships - and your scaling that she can seems to be in bad faith.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lord_tenebrous: Fact File is in-universe, written by New Republic historians. ROTS novel is out-of-universe.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By DarthAnt66
Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7  Edited By DarthAnt66

@lordofthelight: Maybe I'm missing context that you're seeing, but what makes you think "force barrier" is referring to an actual Force shield and not general ship shielding? Not that that feat puts Gallia close to Malgus regardless, though.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dc77: Yah gonna be a decent debater bro...... in a few years.

Yet still making better points than you already.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9  Edited By DarthAnt66

@hellfireunit said:

First of all, hello everyone. This is my first comment on CV. I've been following this site for a very long time, IDK why I have not created an account yet. I want to thank both Azronger and DarthAnt66 for their posts and researches. Thanks for this great debate.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Expect my final post late May or early June. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts when it's over.

Avatar image for darthant66
DarthAnt66

2560

Forum Posts

969

Wiki Points

79

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@decaf_wizard: Your introduction post has to be 10,000 characters. Currently, it is 18,000 characters. You have to either remove 8,000 characters or redo the post.