citgo

@Aristeaus:

“I have no problem with them being "technically" Shinjutsu.”

No need for quotation marks, it’s a fact

“I however do not consider poor imitations, much like ninjiitsu is to Shinjutsu.”

Well neither do I nor the manga

“Isshiki's DNA did not completely rewrite Jigens body. If it did, Jigens bodies weakness would not be an issue for him. There had to be something left. I am also not sure how he rewrote inanimate objects within his body... cause that is a bit weird.”

Isshiki’s karma was fully extracted into Jigen’s body, but the body itself gets overwritten when the Ōtsutsuki resurrects, which means any Shibai DNA he could’ve added would’ve been overwritten regardless. Still, Jigen was confirmed to be a defective vessel crumbling apart on many occasions clearly distinct from perfect vessels in function. Which is why adding another uncontrollable Shinjutsu on top would’ve been idiotic. What inanimate objects are you referring to exactly?

“Yes and No. I do believe that it would awaken new abilities within the Otsu who ate the fruit. I do not believe they gain ALL the abilities of everyone that ever lived on the planet. If that were the case, why wouldn't you go to a planet, settle on it, give people chakra, have descendants and THEN plant a tree. Not only would you gain more power, but how many damn Dojutsu are we up to in the last 1000 years?”

They’d have to wait at least a good thousand years for that too happen and cross species breed (you’re not gonna catch your typical Ōtsutsuki doing that ever) when they could instead be draining various planets and getting closer to achieving godhood

“That isn't the case. We know it isn't the case. Kaguya ate the fruit and it did not kill the planet. Momoshiki and Kinshiki are said to repeatedly harvest fruits on the planet until it dies, which means multiple. (Boruto: Movie, maybe non-canon now?)”

Its a matter of interpretation. Amado explained the god tree kills the planet by effectively draining everything to produce a fruit in ch46. Kaguya arrived on earth wit 1 eye in all 3 sockets, her third eye opened by eating a chakra fruit. This means she probably ate a fruit from another planet before arriving on earth. This would explain why earth isn’t dead

“No, but I also don't think Otsu would get learned techniques at all. I think they would get The Rinnegan and Sharingan, and the potential of all that they come with, and that perhaps having multiple would cause them to mutate into something new like the Tenseigan.”

They’re already getting an individual’s entire genetic makeup, there’s no reason to assume they wouldn’t receive all his abilities. This isn’t like they’re implanting a certain amount of cells and receiving one or two ability. Which leads us back to my original point

@Aristeaus:

“Ninjiitsu abilites are described as poor imitation of Shinjutsu. Which is also the case in the abilities transferred to others. Eida's ability is technically omnipotence, but her version is just a poor imitation of what is actually Shinjutsu, in Omnipotence. It was to the point where Momoshiki even stated it wasn't Shinjutsu.”

Momoshiki only made that comment regarding her love charm. He thought her power wasn’t Shinjutsu at first until he figured out her love charm was simply a byproduct (an effect) of Omnipotence (or Omnipotence in use). He had no contention wit any other ability being referred to as Shinjutsu including hers for the simple fact that they are Shinjutsu

“That would also apply to Code and Jigen. They are not capable of using the full power of whatever the hell their Shinjutsu is, so I certainly wouldn't count that as Shinjutsu abilities literally described as god powers. Also, no, He wouldn't lose the extra Shinjutsu by your logic. While Jigen's body would die, he was planning on feeding himself to the 10 tails, so that Genetic information would just be transferred to him again when he ate the fruit”

Where are you getting all this from? The manga flat out tells us those abilities are Shinjutsu, there’s nothing further to discuss here. If Jigen wasn’t able to use his own Shinjutsu at full power as you claim, it begs the question, why would he even bother transplanting Shibai’s DNA if he wouldn’t be able to use it appropriately? While that is true to canon regarding Jigen’s body, I was referring to what happened in canon. Isshiki’s DNA completely rewrote Jigen’s body and at that point he would’ve lost anything extra transplanted from Shibai upon resurrection

“I have already established that Genetic Data confers little to no extra power. The extra power they gain comes from Chakra sources ( if there are any ), and the Ten Tails itself ( If there aren't any ) and the Planet itself.”

It would still confer the abilities, just like a transplantation of DNA would. Using these new found abilities would drain the individual of considerable chakra. We’ve seen what the use of a single Shinjutsu did to Jigen. It drained most of his chakra and he began to shatter, in effect causing Isshiki to resurrect, lose his perfect vessel and himself die in the process later. Getting Shibai’s DNA via transplantation for more Shinjutsu would only hasten Isshiki’s death since they’d drain more of Jigen’s chakra and he wouldn’t be able to stop it due to a lack of control

“Genetic Data allows them to evolve and gain abilities. Chakra makes them more powerful. They are entirely separate.”

So we are in agreement that theyll gain abilities via god tree draining all the same?

“Your premise doesn't even make sense. If Ohtsu are trying to evolve and eventually become gods, and all life that ever lived on a planet gets added to that... you could very easily become a god... it would be much easier to do then traveling in pairs randomly throughout the galaxy. Take 100 Ohtsu to a planet, have 99 of them put their Karma on random people, Kill them, Eat the fruit. Now you have 1 Ohtsu that just gained the power of 100+ by your logic, right? You could literally multiply your power every single time. Far more then any random planet without chakra would give you.”

Again you’re free to believe that their chakra isn’t added to the fruit, this isn’t the point of contention, but we agree their abilities will be correct?

“And what happens when a planet has already had a fruit on it? Does that mean you copy their "power" multiple times? How can you drain something of all its power multiple times? lol”

You don’t? That planet will die once the fruit is produced. They just eat that fruit and move on to the next planet. Rinse repeat

“Or how about Cloning? Cloning exists in the universe. Why wouldn't they just clone a bunch of Madara level people killing them off over and over again then eat a fruit that, by your logic, would be immensely more powerful? There are just so many reasons why your logic doesn't make sense here.”

Honestly I don’t think you get my point. Say they (Ōtsutsuki’s lol) did clone him twice for example (assuming they know who Madara is), you wouldn’t say they’d gain Madara’s abilities twice over would you? Two light fangs, two lighting dispatches, two sets of 4-5 Limbo… etc. That makes no sense

@Aristeaus:

“Isshiki was fine in Jigens body until he used 100% of his power. I don't believe having one shinjutsu would kill him.”

Isshiki had Shinjutsu, so did Jigen by extension. By simply spamming his Shinjutsu, the vessel (Jigen) exhausted most of his chakra and began shattering. This ultimately led to Isshiki’s downfall. If he had more Shinjutsu to use (since according to you that’ll help) he’d only be speeding up his downfall. He’d also lose any extra Shinjutsu he could’ve gotten by transplanting Shibai’s DNA into Jigen. Due to resurrection, Isshiki’s DNA would’ve rewritten everything inside/out Jigen via Karma

“I don't know why people have come to give the "Shinjutsu" classification to any Otsu ability. That isn't what Shinjutsu is. Daikokuten isn't a Shinjutsu.”

Thats prolly bc they don’t. Sukunahikona and Daikokuten were classified as Shinjutsu in ch75 and ch78

“Another guy tried to say that Claw Marks are Shinjutsu... lol”

Yeah… dunno how to break it you, but that’s also Shinjutsu per ch75

“There is only one ability currently that is confirmed as Shinjutsu. That is Omnipotence. Not even Senreigan or Reflection is confirmed to be Shinjutsu. Its likely that they both are as well, but this doesn't naturally mean that all Ohtsu abilities are Shinjutsu.”

Eida and Daemon’s abilities were confirmed Shinjutsu way back in ch75

“My god... You kids keep doing this. You read something then twist it to what you want it to be.”

Except what I want it to be is already present in the manga

“At no point did Isshiki say anything about chakra or power. Ohtsu need Life Energy and Biological information in order to evolve. The Life Energy comes from the planet and the current residents and the Biological information comes from everyone who has ever lived. This was well explained. We got an entire databook entry explaining it to us.”

Genetic data from everyone who has ever lived… and died (as made clear by Isshiki) on a planet. They’d get Shibai’s genes via this method if they happen to drain the planet he died on, in turn his powers. I don’t see what’s the issue here

“Hell, Chakra isn't even a natural phenomenon. 99.9% of these planets Ohtsu are going to don't have Chakra. Kaguya ate the fruit before Chakra even existed on the planet. What did you think the God Tree then was sucking up? Cause it wasn't chakra. Gee... I wonder if it was Life Energy and Biological Information like everything says it was.”

If you want to believe it’s life energy, that’s fine. It rly isn’t a point of contention

“I literally posted panels showing that it does not take chakra from everyone who has ever lived. Only those living on the planet.”

That’s great work. Rly it is

@Aristeaus:

“I already covered this earlier, but no. That isn't how that works. DNA does not give more power. It gives powers of the donor. We have lots of evidence of this.”

Powers in Naruto require chakra. That is especially detrimental for Jigen. Giving him another Shinjutsu on top of already making use of another in a single fight caused his defective vessel to shatter apart. This isn’t what he needs. Especially if he can’t control it and it activates on its own further draining him till he shatters

“By your logic Yamato is Hashirama tier.”

Yamato’s use of wood release via Hashirama’s cells only strengthens my argument. Yamato simply making use of wood release drained him considerably at times. It left him worn out and breathless. We’ve seen what using a single Shinjutsu does to Jigen, adding another on top is stupidly irresponsible, good thing it didn’t happen

“Is Danzo Hashirama tier?”

Nobody’s arguing he is

“Madara was always shown to be more or less equal to Hashirama. Madara had Hashirama DNA. Didn't improve his power. Literally every instance of DNA implantation in both series has never resulted in tangible power gain. Only powers that the donor has/had.”

I’m not arguing it would either

“All chakra from the planet. Somewhere along the way you naruto bois likened that to every person who has ever lived. At no point was that ever said. Kaguya ate a Fruit before Chakra even existed on the planet... where did you think that Chakra came from to make said fruit? Not the people.”

All life that lived and died was mentioned in ch55. Isshiki had a whole monologue about it

“Name a Shinjutsu ability that wouldn't be useful to Isshiki's goals. Go on. I'll wait.”

In Jigen’s predicament, literally none as explained above

“I would argue that if your gods body was in your possession and you wanted to experiment with it... you would take the time rather then handing it over to someone else”

Still not his god. Even if Isshiki gave him the body, it was under tight supervision

“We don't know that Isshiki gave him the body in the first place. But no, the wording implies that they weren't done under Isshiki's/Kara presence.”

We have enough to information on the matter to imply he did. It was made clear in ch44 that Amado was forbidden from leaving the lair w/o Jigen’s permission. Any experimentation he would’ve done is under Kara’s supervision

"Amado gained possession of the body", was the wording used. Possession directly means ownership and that conflicts with Isshiki giving him the body as I highly doubt that Isshiki permanently gave his gods body to Amado.”

Funny, I don’t remember that ever being stated. But just to make sure I reread the chapter, and as I thought, not once is that stated. Either way, gaining possession is far too broad. It could easily be interpreted as gaining possession after someone gave it

@Aristeaus:

“No matter what Shinjutsu he gets, even if he can't actively control it, it would WITHOUT QUESTION advance his goals.”

It wouldn’t, it’d just rapidly speed up the breakdown of Jigen’s body

“That isn't how Chakra fruits are described to work. There has to be a Tree on the planet when he dies for that chakra to be added to the next fruit. If there was no Tree when he died, then there is nothing to take his power. Isshiki planned on feeding himself to the Tails, despite Jigen being weaker, and thus would produce a weaker fruit. This is pretty much confirmation that the Chakra of everyone to ever exist on a planet doesn't get added to the fruit, as if it were, then the Earth Fruit would be massively above whatever Jigen would contribute and there would be little to no tangible decrease in Chakra.”

Neither does it work the way you describe it here. The crystallization of all life that existed and died on a planet will be added to the fruit whenever a god tree does its thing. Isshiki made it clear that him dying “now” would still add him to the fruit when the tree does it’s thing later. Jigen’s body was a unique case, described as decrepit hence why it would’ve produced a weaker fruit. Else its explicitly stated that all chakra is drained like 30 chapters ago

“Having no control over it doesn't mean it wouldn't help. Even if it was "practically a curse", it’s temporary. He planned on discarding that body anyway. It does not matter what Shinjutsu Isshiki received. They are all massively above the Naruto world in effect.”

He’d be discarding that body a little too early (dying) then planned if he had done what you suggested

“There isn't anything to state that it isn't guaranteed to awaken. Every instance of DNA Implanting in the series has worked as far as we know. Even Amado's own words in Chapter 75 state directly “Transferring DNA results in the endowing of one or more of his abilities". That is not a chance. That seems an awful lot like a guarantee to me.”

I’m not denying an ability is bound to awaken. Rather, the one you’re suggesting he awakens is a gamble. That’s why Daemon gained Omnipotence too right? Thats rhetorical bc he didn’t

“Bad reasons that make no logical sense. Isshiki already had Jigens body altered by Amado in other ways. There is no logical reason he would stop there”

Those other ways didn’t accelerate the deterioration of Jigen’s body like Shibai’s powers would do

“Again, illogical. Jigen is hundreds of years old. If he wanted to, it would be very easy for him to acquire the scientific knowledge that Amado has. It would be virtually nothing for him to devote 30 years to scientific research. If he wanted to, he easily could have.”

He landed on earth 1000 years ago where there wasn’t any scientific knowledge to learn from. It’d be far more logical to enlist the help of someone who’s already extremely proficient in the field instead of wasting 30 years to learn and then apply when another could already be doing the work

“I suppose I can't say for certain the order in which this occurred, but you can't either, and the production of Cyborgs exceeding Jigen in power leans heavily towards him doing it after learning of Isshiki's plan. If you had to pick a side based on the knowledge we know now then there isn't anyone with half a brain that wouldn't think it happened after his learning of the plan.”

Which is why I clearly mentioned we don’t know when he found out. Isshiki would’ve logically have been the one to lend Amado Shibai’s DNA since he’s also an Ōtsutsuki who has the perfect place to store a corpse. Amado was also forbidden from leaving the lair. Tampering wit Shibai’s DNA was all done under Isshiki’s (or Kara’s) presence which is how he learned of the cyborgs surpassing him via Shibai’s DNA and had them disposed (which adds further proof to Isshiki supplying Amado wit his DNA). So even if Amado became aware of Isshiki’s endgame and created said cyborgs in response. He’d have no way of actually using them and in turn resorted to KK who’d appear harmless, but be a serious threat under the right circumstances

Madara too fast… at getting his ass whooped by Ichigo

@Aristeaus:

“Don't need to even make a chakra fruit when you have access to Shibai's DNA that grants you power far beyond what the Chakra Fruit can.”

We’ve seen firsthand what transplanting his DNA does, and it’s not ascending to a 4D plane of existence. There’s rly no point in transplanting his DNA as it doesn’t help advance their goals. Although whichever planet he “died” on will have his genetic material automatically added to the chakra fruit once the planet is drained clean so by simply doing what Ōtsutsuki’s do best (harvesting planets) they’d get his DNA, not that they’d be able to wield it. So they don’t need to actively search for his body. But this is besides the point, which I’ll get to below

“Isshiki found the body but didn't even both getting the strongest power up to exist in the series? Hell, he even knew how powerful the Cyborgs had become“

It’s explicitly stated by Momoshiki in ch79 that only an all-knowing and almighty god could wield this “strongest power up” a being Isshiki certainly isn’t. Eida has no control over it and it’s practically a curse for her. Furthermore, Amado doesn’t pick and chose which ability to give. The way he described the transplantation procedure in ch75 makes it blatantly obvious that abilities awaken at random. Daemon only received reflection whereas Eida received at least 3 different abilities even tho both of em had the same person’s DNA implanted. It’s not guaranteed to awaken the “strongest power up” at all. It’s also very possible that Isshiki might’ve actually tried to get the “strongest power” by allowing Amado to transplant Shibai’s DNA into him seeing as Shibai’s left eye bares striking resemblance to Jigen/Isshiki’s and Kawaki’s eye. Again, it is way too soon to be having this discussion

“Amado has no access to other planets or dimensions. Isshiki came to the planet with Kaguya, and its extremely unlikely that they had his body at this point, because again.... why bother with a convoluted plan to power up via chakra fruits when you have his DNA at the ready.“

Again, only an all knowing and almighty god can actually wield Shibai’s power and no the “strongest power up” isn’t something that is guaranteed to awaken after successful transplantation bc Amado doesn’t pick and chose which ability to give as made clear in ch75. Oh and the are fruits are essential to their goal as mentioned above

“Imagine your a Otsu. Now imagine you have access to your literal God's body, and his powers. Why wouldn't you implant DNA into yourself?”

There’s a lot of reasons actually which I’ve listed above

“Even if you didn't want to implant DNA... why would you give your God's body to a random human to conduct experiments on? Seems pretty sacrosanct to me.”

Maybe if you considered the possibility that Jigen did not have the means to conduct the experiments on his own, which is why he enlisted an actual scientists help. And nothing suggests he gave the corpse away. Also Shibai is not stated to be the Ōtsutsuki clan’s god, he’s just another member who ascended

“Now imagine your Amado, and you learn that Isshiki is planning on destroying the world. You have access to Shibai's body, but your ultimate plan is to clone Jiraiya? And you didn't think that maybe he would be better served with Shibai's DNA for his task?”

What makes you think Amado learned of Isshiki’s plan to destroy the world before creating those Shibai enhanced cyborgs? We have no idea when he found out, could’ve been after Jigen ordered those cyborgs to be scrapped for all we know

Ain't no way, but "Earl" is just a rank

Mfs rly pulling sources out they asses and changing subjects now

OP verse ceases to exist

Still cant believe it. RIP to that legend man