ChaosReigns

@axiompulse: @gelato_exotic: @takenstew22: @lilyeezywest: This is to put the nail in the coffin to finally prove that UI Goku was still stronger than post yardrat training SSB Vegeta.

First of all, no Vegeta is not stronger than UI omen goku. Ui Goku could fight and put some serious damage on a full power moro whereas moro does not even state that he went full power on Vegeta nor did Whis state that as well.

The reason why goku lost against moro was because his using ui at full power was heavily draining his stamina making him weaker during the battle to the point where his punches werent connecting anymore and his “trademark speed” (in the words of moro) had drastically decreased and not because Moro was getting stronger as the fight went on.

Moro had flatout stated that he was much stronger than vegeta and that he could not contend with him after vegeta’s punch against him at full power barely moved him back.

The only reason Vegeta won against Moro was because Moro wasnt taking him seriously at first and let him get in free hits with spirit fission which weakened Moro’s power down to a level Vegeta could contend with him and finally beat him. Piccolo notes that Vegeta was not getting stronger but weakening Moro with each strike.

When goku/Piccolo said vegeta had surpassed him they weren’t talking about in terms of power but the fact that vegeta had beat moro whereas goku failed and also because vegeta had surpassed goku’s spirit control training on yardrat by obtaining and mastering the spirit fission ability. Goku even admitted that he could not learn forced spirit fission when Vegeta successfully did.

So based on what has been shown what can it be deduced from this?

• Vegeta just had a technique that works on Moro helping him take him down via ability not via power
• His initial punches were a true testament to his strength, which barely hurt Moro.
• Vegeta rather made Moro weaker to the point of making real damage.
• Yes, Vegeta got stronger, but UI Goku fought on toes with Moro at full power, albeit for a short time before his stamina strain wore him down.

With that said, SSB Vegeta is not stronger than UI goku but managed to one-up him this time by being the one to defeat Moro and mastering spirit control techniques. In a fight between those two ui omen goku would still defeat Vegeta, and Vegeta wouldn’t be able to get a hit off.

In blue forms, MAYBE Vegeta would have an edge because he might have boosted his base past Goku by training his spirit on yardrat but we can’t say for certain since Goku has also boosted his base a considerable amount by training with an angel for months in the hyperbolic time chamber.

Raising the power of UI in the hyperbolic time chamber via angel training should still be more powerful than amping the power of a SSB form via the yardrat training. UI Goku still proves to be stronger.

Not in the sense in what you think it means. Nope, but if there is a god I hope he does come down and smack some manners in yours.😒

I actually can which is why im doing it but if you wanna backtrack then be my guest.

@lilyeezywest: Don't worry you are also giving me headache. Even bigger than yours most likely. Tommorow I will put the nail in coffin and prove it you/everybody that UI Goku is stronger than SSB Vegeta in that encounter.

@lilyeezywest: @gelato_exotic: Tomorrow I'm going to fully prove and make you understand as to why UI Goku is still stronger than SSB Vegeta. I have gathered enough evidence but just need to rest since its been a long night debating this.

Strawman, I never said anything like that.

Then correct/clarify before making outlandish statements.

Moro constantly gets stronger as a battle goes on, while the other gets weaker, that is why Vegeta said "I just wants a fair right", again all this is pointless because Goku couldn't beat Moro. Moro himself admitting Vegeta is stronger is still something you have to deal with, you glossing over that fact is insane.

Nowhere was it stated that Moro was growing stronger with the battle against UI Goku nor SSB Vegeta. If you actually read the manga (which at this point i think you haven't). Moro was not even able to passively absorb Goku since he was slightly faster than him and when he did it did not provide a power boost.

You mean in that quote where he literally states Vegeta is the strongest he fought? Yeah, I will. Who's arguing the reason why he won? Again strawman, my argument is Vegeta is stronger than Goku nothing else. Who cares how Vegeta won? Did he win? Yes, okay leave it at that. Vegeta is stronger is my argument nothing else. You arguing anything else is attacking a straw man.

The manga panel never states that hes the strongest his fought especially when Moro stated that he is still no match for him like what you even talking about lol. You only state that because moro said that he will be his finest meal yet automatically makes him stronger than Goku according to you.

You literally stated that Vegeta's ability was countering moro's hax and not via his own power lmao. Talk about contradictions.

NO NO WAY LMAOAOAOAO, so Moro stating Vegeta would be his best meal is vague, but let me get this straight, drawings that depict "damage" is a better judge? Is that your argument here when Moro is literally stating based off of energy, which is the "meal" That Vegeta would be the best meaning he's the strongest since Ki = strength. Nice thank you. You not stating anything that happened, you're ignoring statements and claiming themn as vague when it's given to you on a silver platter, indulge.

It is vague because it can have different meanings. Vegeta's new power boost did not show any superiority over UI Goku but was only via his ability. By your logic Moro is only galaxy level because he was planning to only destroy the galaxy. You are taking things at face value and not at the context of what they meant.

Well, I don't make the drawings, but its clear that UI Goku was making Moro take it more seriously than Vegeta. If anything, Vegeta only managed to annoy him until he realized that his strikes were stripping away his power.

The moro stating" you will make my finest meal yet" is your only piece of evidence for Vegeta being stronger lol.

Bro what? What you're telling is he's "stronger" because of technique, if it was stronger because of technique Goku wouldn't have used the word surpassed. Moro wouldn't have said "You will make for my finest meal yet".

You are making it seem that by default if someone has a technique they automatically are stronger. Forced spirit fission technique =/= ultra instinct technique. Different techniques for different applications.

Forced spirit fission acts more like an ability rather than a power boost like Ultra Instinct.

You keep on using characters who cannot gauge how powerful someone is, he can't sense them, they can only get a feel for them. You saying Vegeta couldn't beat Moro, or they saying that is pointless when Goku couldn't beat Vegeta. That just means Moro was on a different level all together. Not to mention Goku, nor Vegeta was able to beat him with brute power by himself, which also adds to that and you are ignoring that whole section. In their first fight SSJ Vegeta was able to best Moro to some degree until Moro hax kicked in, then not even SSB Vegeta could win. If Vegeta didn't have this technique even if he was superior or about equal he still would've lost.

Because Moro stated that he couldn't? Everyone noticed that SSB Vegeta's attacks was not fazing moro. If he was indeed stronger than him then forced spirit fission technique would not be needed. Ok cool? That was weak old moro not sure whats the relevancy here. They gonna do better since he isn't at full power like where you going with this.

You are using drawings as a means to combat actual statements which is idiotic, I understand it, we all understand it, it's not a difficult or convoluted theory to grasp, it's just blatantly incorrect given the fact that Moro himself that Vegeta would make for a better meal than Goku. He never commented on Goku like that. Yes Vegeta hax countered Moro, but Vegeta himself was stronger than Goku, if you could never find a situation where they said "I'll surpass you" in anything other than strength, and this is dragonball where strength is the end all be all, I gurantee you they mean strength. Goku wouldn't have said it in any other way.

How ironic that you call it idiotic for using drawings as combat statements when you use this panel to prove that ssb vegeta was already stronger than Goku:

Thanks for admitting that Vegeta's hax was giving him the win. Its not so hard to grasp once you actually know the reason behind his victory. Again, surpassing not in power but in skill since Vegeta showed that he was able to take down moro via his ability and not power.

You cannot debunk it at all, Moro himself says Vegeta would be his best meal, Goku says he will surpass him again, doesn't matter what else you say, nor do I care what else you say, you're contradicting what is shown in the manga to go along with your headcanon because for some reason "he did more damage", man please.

I actually have been debunking it you just keeping making stuff up lol. Moro saying that Vegeta "would be his best meal" is vague and open to just any meaning. Vegeta would be his best meal since he already knocked out the power of UI Goku and can now absorb a now power upped Vegeta. Also, there is no contradiction since I'm mainly stating what happened in the manga.

@lilyeezywest said:

@chaosreigns: Those drawings show "superiority" but the words themselves do not, especially from characters who can sense he Ki, and characters that are fighting against each other. Even Goku himself says he will surpass Vegeta again, and Moro says Vegeta will make for his finest meal even before he was aware of forced spirit fission how are you going to argue the contrary? That's the definition of a contradiction.

Again where was this stated that moro gets stronger as the fight goes on. He aint Broly. Moro absorbing provided little to no power boost since UI Goku still activated and continued like nothing happened.

So either you don't read the manga? he passively absorbs energy getting stronger over time. Even absorbing the life energy of the Earth/Namek/Opponents, he literally did that in his first fight against Vegeta and Goku which is why they lost.

Except in this case it does not refer to power but how Vegeta managed to defeat Moro without using just raw power. If Vegeta didnt use or had forced spirit fission, the fight would be meaningless and be over much faster.

Based on what? Vegeta couldn't beat him because Moro hax would allow him to absorb his energy, he needed something to counteract that to even have a chance to win? Again, you're arguing with the manga, Vegeta is stronger than UI Omen Goku, at that point.

Well, the "drawings" show more superiority towards Goku than Vegeta and those manga panels is how people can gague their power as well as get the feats.

Also, where the hell was it stated that Moro gets stronger while fighting people? Moro only gets stronger via absorbing life energy. He does not get stronger via his own power alone

That along with Goku saying he has been surpassed by Vegeta is enough feats to prove that Vegeta is above Goku in power.

So either you don't read the manga? he passively absorbs energy getting stronger over time. Even absorbing the life energy of the Earth/Namek/Opponents, he literally did that in his first fight against Vegeta and Goku which is why they lost.

More like you can't even read/comprehend what I am telling you. Moro was not even absorbing life energy at that point since he even stated prior that he wanted to finish them off before doing so.

Based on what? Vegeta couldn't beat him because Moro hax would allow him to absorb his energy, he needed something to counteract that to even have a chance to win? Again, you're arguing with the manga, Vegeta is stronger than UI Omen Goku, at that point.

Based on the fact that everyone and even moro said that his new power boost was still not enough to defeat him. Did you read or check the manga panels? Moro isnt even faze by his blows.

That along with Goku saying he has been surpassed by Vegeta is enough feats to prove that Vegeta is above Goku in power.

Great, he's more resilient and only shows that Moro's power is not affecting him since his force spirit fission is stripping away his power with each blow. Still does not prove that Vegeta is stronger than UI Goku. He won via technique not because he was stronger than Moro or Goku.

@lilyeezywest said:

@chaosreigns: Who cares what the Z fighters aknowledge when Goku blatantly says I will surpass him again, not I will do better none of that. Vegeta was stronger than Goku point blank period. Vegeta went on training from Yardrat, incase everyone forgot what that means let me just leave this here

That's what that means, you are using statements from people who can't sense God Ki. Goku who can says he is going to surpass Vegeta, you saying it's for "technique" is an assumption with no evidence for it. Vegeta who wasn't even finished with his training was literally surprised by the power increase and couldn't control it that well at first. The person who is training him states he has grown by "leaps and bounds" not "slightly". A18 don't know what training he did, nor how much stronger he got.

Also no he doesn't you are using drawings or "visuals" to try to come to that conclusion when Goku the only one on that battle field who can sense God Ki is admitting inferiority. Moro also has the ability to constantly get stronger while fighting people, so Moro when he fought Vegeta was obviously stronger than when he fought Goku. Obviously Vegeta hax helped him, but he hstill was landing hits on a Moro that whooped Goku.

When Goku and Vegeta is talking about one upping each other or anything like that they are always referring to power, him saying he will surpass him has never meant in technique, and vice versa, he will surpass him because Vegeta as of that moment was the stronger person.

Lastly, you said

Moro tanked a hit from Vegeta with little to no damage. Piccolo even noted that Moro was stronger than him, and this is a Moro that had just finished fighting Ultra Instinct Sign Goku. While it was stated that Vegeta got stronger, it didnt state that he got stronger than Goku.

What does that matter? He gets stronger as the fights go on while his opponents get weaker... He wasn't shown visually tired or exhausted no actually, he was seen absorbing a little of Goku's energy before the Androids helped him.

That's what that means, you are using statements from people who can't sense God Ki. Goku who can says he is going to surpass Vegeta, you saying it's for "technique" is an assumption with no evidence for it. Vegeta who wasn't even finished with his training was literally surprised by the power increase and couldn't control it that well at first. The person who is training him states he has grown by "leaps and bounds" not "slightly". A18 don't know what training he did, nor how much stronger he got.

They don't need to sense god ki in order to sense how strong they are. The "pressure" the comes out of the form is how they gauge their strength. Its no assumption to believe that he was referring to technique/skill because that's how Vegeta was able to defeat moro a.k.a. via technique not power. Vegeta's training, as much as a power boost it gave him, was still no match for Moro.

Moro even states it and even Gohan notes that it had barely any effect:

Also no he doesn't you are using drawings or "visuals" to try to come to that conclusion when Goku the only one on that battle field who can sense God Ki is admitting inferiority. Moro also has the ability to constantly get stronger while fighting people, so Moro when he fought Vegeta was obviously stronger than when he fought Goku. Obviously Vegeta hax helped him, but he hstill was landing hits on a Moro that whooped Goku.

Well, the "drawings" show more superiority towards Goku than Vegeta and those manga panels is how people can gague their power as well as get the feats.

Also, where the hell was it stated that Moro gets stronger while fighting people? Moro only gets stronger via absorbing life energy. He does not get stronger via his own power alone.

When Goku and Vegeta is talking about one upping each other or anything like that they are always referring to power, him saying he will surpass him has never meant in technique, and vice versa, he will surpass him because Vegeta as of that moment was the stronger person.

Except in this case it does not refer to power but how Vegeta managed to defeat Moro without using just raw power. If Vegeta didnt use or had forced spirit fission, the fight would be meaningless and be over much faster.

What does that matter? He gets stronger as the fights go on while his opponents get weaker... He wasn't shown visually tired or exhausted no actually, he was seen absorbing a little of Goku's energy before the Androids helped him.

Again where was this stated that moro gets stronger as the fight goes on. He aint Broly. Moro absorbing provided little to no power boost since UI Goku still activated and continued like nothing happened.

@lilyeezywest said:

@chaosreigns said:

@firstmanofsteel: Well to be perfectly clear, UI Goku did more dmg to Moro than SSBE Vegeta.

^We clearly see that UI Goku managed to bruise and bleed Moro to a certain extent.

Now compare to this....

So Vegeta only defeated Moro because of his new technique not because of raw strength like Goku. UI Omen Goku is stronger than Vegeta and Vegeta’s technique only worked because Moro wasnt aware of it.

And in the manga Goku had to go MUI on Jiren in order to actually make dmg to him. So even is this is post yardrat training vegeta I don't consider him to be in the same league of MUI OR Jiren.

That's not true at all, Goku states verbatim that Vegeta is stronger than him.

Goku stated that he is a better fighter. Better fighter =/= stronger. Vegeta won not because he was more powerful but because Vegeta 's battle skills are far more better than Goku's , in terms of technique and strategy.

^Before any of you bring up the statement that Vegeta had surpassed Goku, Goku wasn’t talking about power. he was referring to the fact that Vegeta one-upped him in battle.

Moro tanked a hit from Vegeta with little to no damage. Piccolo even noted that Moro was stronger than him, and this is a Moro that had just finished fighting Ultra Instinct Sign Goku. While it was stated that Vegeta got stronger, it didnt state that he got stronger than Goku.

Even the Z-fighters recognized that Vegeta was still not strong enough to even faze Moro, but they did not know that his new technique was mainly to depower Moro via forced spirit fission and not due to raw power.

Goku's UI Sign still shows better power feats.