BuckshotWasHere

Why wouldn't I be serious about it? Prime's best and only operational speed feat is against characters whose speed is unstated in the situation. You can assume they're going as fast as possible (which isn't supportable given the flashes present) but that can't be proven. Him hitting Flashes isn't more impressive than Deathstroke doing it just because Prime is involved. Deathstroke has actually done it more often, more consistently, and more explicitly.

I'd have to actually familiarize myself with Gog.

It's funny that you talk about feats when it serves you. What were the metrics you used for Superman? "Superman has 1,000 years of fighting experience", Majestic has 10,000, and that's after being trained to kill from birth in a culture dedicated to close quarters combat as art, language (batgirl-like move reading isn't rare for his people), religion and more. "Superman has training from Batman, Wildcat, Mongul, Wonder Woman and General Zod." That's great, but all together they dont measure up to the reputation of Sebastian, who conquered galaxies for millennia. The entirety of their lives, stretched end to end, is nothing compared to the time Majestic spent in combat or being trained by Sebastian. "Superman also knows Kryptonian martial arts." That's cool, but Majestic knows kheran martial arts, and i think the martial arts of a race known for galactic conquest using close quarters combat counts for more than equally vague martial arts from relatively passive and non-intereference (by most tellings) culture. Beyond that, what do their martial arts bring to the table? On their planet they're basically humans. On Khera, Majestic still had all his powers. His martial arts includes training in all his abilities. That's why when he fights armies of enemies he uses his legs, his flight, his laser vision, and his fists (or finger tips since that's all he needs to rip people apart). He's been practicing fighting with all his abilities. Superman's martial arts teach him how to fight like a human without any of his powers. Even if he adapts some principles, it is by its very nature not as effective or efficient as martial arts tailored to the powers and abilities of a flying brick. "Superman has extensive knowledge of pressure points." Extensive seems like a wild exaggeration to me, but sure, whatever. So what? Majestic does too. He's not used it as much, but I hope I don't need to point out that Superman is the perhaps the most well known superhuman on the planet, has existed for decades, and has appeared in far more comics than Majestic. Superman has probably appeared more in a single year than the total number of appearances of Majestic. Him doing something more doesn't in any way reflect on Majestic's ability to do it. So no, Majestic doesn't use nerve strikes more than Superman, but what's worth noting is that when he does, he doesnt have to justify it or explain how he can do it by referencing someone known to be a good fighter. He just does it and doesn't need to name drop because it's simply a part of him and shouldn't be a surprise. He doesn't need to justify his fighting skills (like Superman does almost every time he shows them) because his skill is simply part of his character, not an outlier. When Majestic comes across 3 fighters he describes as less fun versions of Zealot (with swords skills that have her recognized as the best across her universe and are backed up by her facing Nemesis equally despite all Nemesis' advantages, fighting Midnighter to a standstill despite all his hax, and taking down the rest of the coda on the planet), he fights them using just his skill against their swords and he kills two of them and captures the third, and he doesn't talk about his skill or reference anyone else, he just does it, because that's what he's capable of and name-dropping isn't necessary. His skill is his own, not something he needs to explain. You're saying Prime beat a character regardless of his skill, but that character isn't as skilled as Majestic, nor does he have physical abilities on Prime's level, which Majestic does. This is why your comparison is meaningless.

And let me just address this common misrepresentation of Majestic's reordering of the solar system. He didn't take a longer time because of a lack of strength or ability, he took a long time because he was hiding what he was doing from most of the planet and also doing a lot more than just moving planets. He was traveling all over the universe getting things he'd need, he was coming up with systems to account for the changes he was making, he was coordinating his efforts with a group of scientists, he was waiting for good distractions to cover up all his activities, etc, etc. This is all explicitly stated in the comic so your attempt to downplay Majestic's strength displays because it took him longer is weak. I mean, I could ask, has Superboy Prime moved a sun or jupiter? Or just planets whose mass cant be assumed to be greater than earth's, if that? You may want to differentiate kinds of strength, but in the realm of comics, it's grasping at straws. For Superman you were comfortable looking at the intent of what is written about him to support his speed claims, likewise, for Majestic, it's been said that he can crush planets in his hands and the only enemy he has that takes his hits and survives, is Helspont, who has backhanded superman through space and into the moon and unconsciousness. I think that's a good indicator of Majestic's strength, if planet moving strikes you as insufficient (even though its also the best thing Prime has to support his strength). Majestic has survived being ground zero at an explosion that destroyed the planet and the moon, and the times he is actually hurt by unique weapons, when he's stabbed through the throat and torso by the creation blades, his response is to wonder about the mental health of his attacker. Majestic's durability can be shown to be incredibly high and his ability to deal with what can actually hurt him is of a commensurate level. For comparison, when Wonder Woman cut Superman's throat, he had a hard time continuing their fight, and Prime develops psychological weaknesses in response to people hurting him. Prime's strength does not outdo Majestic's to any significant degree, and without that massive advantage he has over most characters, Superman included, Prime doesn't have much that would let him overcome the far greater fighting skill and weaponry that Majestic would bring to any fight.

Didn't you say "the fact that writers are willing to have that opinion (ie: attosecond speed) given even further credence to his already plentiful nanosecond feats". Now, I freely admit, Majestic doesn't have "plentiful nanosecond feats", but considering wildstorm majestic has less than 200 appearances compared to Superman's more than 12,000, I think that's more than understandable, and in fact, that Majestic has the few he does have in so short a time is pretty significant. Anyway, the writers thought it was worth mentioning that Majestic, across his research, invention, design, construction, and whatever other stages of inventing an entirely new technology in the middle of a fight, found nanoseconds to be a useful measurement of time. It's the sort of thing that goes alongside multiple times where he's shown to be all over an area (whether its a war zone or the entire planet) literally all at the same time or being fast enough to surprise a character whose speed allows him to outrun future events. Those may not be as clear as some of what Superman has accrued over decades, but they paint a picture of a character with incredible speed, and more than Prime has shown. And you say that the world isn't frozen to Majestic, but if he's clocked as being all over the planet at once, doesn't that fall in line with that? Or, and I only bring this up because you brought up the weird display of Superman talking to himself in a nanosecond, how about when Majestic flies to saturn, has an extended transcendant experience where he talks to some forces of the universe, then returns to Earth while the person he was talking to is still saying the same thing they were when he left? It's a weird one to be sure, but it suggests speed of an insane degree. As for his display against Eradicator not being a combat display, I think that's utterly ridiculous. You could MAYBE say that if Majestic were just reading something, but he wasn't, he was rewriting information at faster than the speed of light. Billions (that's billions, with an "s") of pieces of information flowing as light per second, and he didn't just read it, he rewrote it (and lets not forget a fun detail here, he was giving Eradicator a level of omniscience). Why is that not a combat feat? He did it with laser vision. Isn't laser vision something he uses in combat? So him applying his laser vision this way IS applicable to combat. Someone doesn't have to throw a punch to be in combat. Majestic was showing that he could perform billions of actions per second with laser vision. Oh, and let's not forget, it was literally in the middle of a fight. I don't know how you can claim Majestic rewriting an opponent's base functions with laser vision at faster than light speeds in the middle of a fight isn't applicable to combat. I think you like the idea of punches being thrown too much to realize that continuous faster than light actions in the middle of a fight is combat related. But hey, if you like punches being thrown, there's a really clear and simple display of Majestic throwing a punch when he only had a nanosecond to do so. It's pretty commonly brought up so I'm sure you can find it if you haven't seen it already. Spartan (with the reality warper Void's powers) teleports in to fight him and the narration clearly states that Majestic only has a nanosecond of warning, and in that time he flies over and punches Spartan before he even fully materializes from his teleport. Combat speed, should make you happy. Now, just to reiterate, unless someone has something to say otherwise (and ive been asking) Prime doesn't have anything like any of this. Prime is stronger than Superman, but faster? I haven't seen evidence of that. And even assuming he's as fast as Majestic in raw speed, Majestic's battle honed reflexes and his martial skill mean he gets to dictate the fight with the whiny brat.

Difference being that Majestic has performed the same (or a greater) strength feat that Prime uses to get his rep when it comes to strength and his training far outstrips what you're able to say about Superman even on his highlight list. So not only is he a better fighter than Superman by the metrics you use to measure him, but he also has strength on or above Prime's level with which to back up that greater skill. What you're doing is saying that Prime can beat a character that doesn't measure up to Majestic in terms of strength or skill, so Prime can beat Majestic. Makes no sense.

His rig was hit but he wasn't, so yes, he successfully dodged them. It's not like he needed his ride anymore, he had already made it to his target.

None of what you showed for Superman with regards to speed is quite on the level of using nanoseconds as useful measurements of time needed to build an entire new piece of technology or reading and editing billions of pieces of information a second (flowing as light to further show its a FTL display). In any case, I'm good with the idea that Superman and Majestic's speeds aren't really all that different. The claim that Prime's operational speed is significantly different is the thing I want some proof of. As far as I know the single and best thing he has going for him in terms of speed is knocking some Flashes back with what amounts to a blind AOE attack. I think I asked this earlier today elsewhere, but wasn't one of those Flashes Jay Garrick? If so, how fast could they have been going? And hasn't Deathstroke also tagged Flashes? It's not an impossible thing that makes someone automatically faster than Superman. Flash can move fast without moving at his highest recorded speeds, so him being tagged doesn't grant the character who tagged him speed on the same level. Prime comes off as stronger than Superman, but there's not much, if anything, to say he's faster.

I was asking about what about their speed is insufficient for this fight? Prime's may be higher, but why is what they have not enough? If theyre all FTL, and Hulk and Thor are statues in comparison, how does Prime being even faster than that matter? My thought is just that once you reach a certain threshold, the difference isn't relevant when the opponent is SO far behind. The things you provide for Prime don't even say much for his speed. Prime flying FTL would be more useful if this were a race, but it's not. What does flying fast have to do with anything? And crashing through a GL wall is just flying fast AT something. I mean, I guess you could be making the point that Prime can crash into Hulk or Thor going really fast, but I feel like there are much better uses of speed and WW and Superman display those to a far greater degree than Prime does. You'll notice I left off the Flash thing. Prime spun in a circle to knock back 3 flashes attacking him, but is it that great a feat really? One of those Flashes was Jay Garrick, so how fast were they really going anyway? And is knocking back three flashes that impressive? I think actually trading blows with the Flash (while blind) or catching Zoom with a lasso is a much more impressive display of speed that wildly spinning in a circle and pushing someone back. Prime performed the equivalent of a blind area attack, where Wonder Woman has performed specific skilled actions at a high speed. Regardless of how you compare the two, is Wonder Woman's speed insufficient for Hulk and Thor? I wasn't looking for general displays of superiority, just speed really, and I think in that section, with regards to what would be useful, Prime is not blowing WW or Supes out of the water and certainly not doing so to a degree that he's beating Thor and Hulk in ways they can't due to speed alone. With strength, I know Prime is stronger, but is planet-moving strength the only thing that can put these two down? If not, don't supes and ww possess sufficient strength (particularly with their ability to hit many more times than their opponents)? As for ruthlessness, Prime may be wiling to kill people at the drop of a hat, but do you think he's so far ahead of Thor and Hulk that he's actually going to accomplish that? There are plenty of people he fought who he DIDN'T kill or rip apart, so it's not like he can do it to anyone. And for as much as I think Prime is beyond Thor and Hulk, I don't see him instantly maiming them beyond their ability to fight. And if it's going to take a while, then Wonder Woman is certainly willing to engage in similarly bloody and fatal tactics. And let's say WW and Supes "generally match" Thor and Hulk, that doesn't apply to speed, where they outshine them to the point where theyre practically immobile.

I like this take on it. I think the speed factor is incredibly important, but this is an argument what sets prime apart without speed.

Some points from my previous post: AOE attacks hurt Thor as well as Hulk. WW potentially has an AOE block with her bracers. (Hope someone supports or corrects that idea at some point.) I doubt the AOE has infinite range. How much is this seriously going to slow her down? And if Hulk is doing this to counter her speed, what's to say he's even getting the chance if she's applying her speed to him before he can do it. With Superman, why can't he phase through it like he's shown to be able to do against energy attacks?

I can hear the argument for Hulk's damage soak. The character has become a truly ridiculous caricature of himself and I can't really say much against what Marvel has chosen to let him become. I guess all I can say is that I'm glad he's dead. However, assuming Wonder Woman has some sort of cutting weapon (I didn't explicitly mention her sword because I truly don't know how "standard" other people see it, but if you don't think she has it, we can go with the tiara for the sake of argument), what if she just cuts off Hulk's head in the blink of an eye while he's stationary to her? He may be able to grow things back (though if you wouldn't mind showing me that sort of high level regeneration, I'd appreciate it, as I haven't seen what you're referencing when you say he can do it in a short time) but what stops her from just doing it again? Because any time she tries, he's going to be the same statue to her, completely unable to stop him, and if she has him at her mercy in this way, does this not look like victory? I mean, it's the same way we can say people can beat Deadpool even though he'll technically never die.

I'm not really sure how a thunderclap deals with her speed. Let's say Hulk gets off one without her being able to do anything about it, slowing her down momentarily isn't all that much given that her speed difference affects how they're both going to treat the time just after she gets tossed (away from Hulk I might add). And if he does it once and it affects her at all, she'd never let it happen again would she? And wouldn't she have the speed to at the very least just be on the other side of him if he ever tried it again?

With Thor and his lightning/AOE, what stops Wonder Woman from blocking with gauntlets? And do her gauntlets still have the area blocking when used together? Also, assuming Thor (or Hulk) uses an AOE attack, it will affect his own teammate as well, will it not?

Thanks for you input.

Actually, what I said was that Wonder Woman does have her speed fleshed out, Superman just gets more tricks with his. It's not that I don't think hers is firmly established, I think there's enough to say she can do what Superman can here in terms of just moving faster than they can respond to, I just think he's more likely to do something weird because DC likes to give him weird tricks. For example, both of them should be able to move around Thor or Hulk uncontested, but of the two Superman is more likely to be the one to stand directly in front of them and phase through their attacks with a smile on his face.

You say they lose 1v1 but in 2v1 they'd overcome the speed gap, but how does that work? If they're both practically statues in comparison, what difference does ANOTHER statue make? There's this weird Power > Speed idea that seems to go through a lot of the posts that I just don't get. I DO agree with the idea that Superman doesn't use his speed all the time, but looked at in terms of holding back, whether or not I agree with who holds back more in power, Superman holds back nearly everything in terms of speed in most cases. Why is it the case that Hulk and Thor are assumed to unleash all their power in this fight, but Superman won't similarly put his real speed on display?

Whether or not he's right, it seems he doesn't understand the point of the thread. Here, let me reiterate:

So again, I'm hoping for more substantive answers than "they clear it" or "they stop at X". I'd like to know which ones they can beat and why, as well as what makes the others beyond their capabilities

That help?

In theory I understand your first paragraph, but as I've been alluding to in other responses, I feel like speed is being vastly underestimated as a factor in this battle. Let's assume Wonder Woman and Superman don't have the durability to stay in this fight, why does durability matter if they're facing enemies too slow to consistently hit them? How does either of them "get caught" between these two when they're both capable of flight and sufficient speed to effortlessly reposition themselves at a moments notice (and that's not even assuming they use their speed continuously)? And if both of them are similarly able to produce force on a planetary scale but are able to tag Hulk or Thor a few hundred times for every one hit from them, whose durability is really going to be tested?

On your other note, I feel like I've seen shades of it all over the place, so I guess I'll address the thrust of it here. What you're talking about is a difference in attitude and personality, not actual ability. You say it yourself, on paper Majestic is similar if not outright superior, but what you're basing your opinion on is stuff that has nothing to do with what they're actually capable of, just how they treat people they fight or how they outwardly express themselves. Superboy prime can laugh all he wants, but that doesn't, by itself say any more about his ability. Looking at Majestic, he's NEVER going to take on enemies and then laugh at how outmatched they are, it's just not who he is. He took on a city full of enemies and was beating them down effortlessly using his fingertips, but he didn't laugh at them or mock them. Does that mean he doesn't tower over them in power? No. You're attributing some indication of power to Superboy Prime's attitude when it has little bearing on anything else. Also, you're distracting the issue with numbers. Superboy Prime DID in fact take on all sorts of enemies, but the vast majority of them had no business being in a fight with him, so is it impressive when they're beaten? I don't think so.

The other thing you're using to support his ability is that he's fought opponents with long histories, but what does that demonstrate other than that he lives in a universe where characters have had decades to establish themselves. I see this all the time when mainstream characters are up against indie ones. It's why so often you simply don't see indie characters in fights or because they have to have some insane powers to begin with just to be considered worth talking about. Do we need a long history to know that Majestic can skillfully operate at speeds far beyond anything Prime displayed? Do we need a long history to know that Majestic actually knows how to fight while Prime does not? Given what we know and can prove about Majestic's abilities, why couldn't he do what Prime did? Or, put it this way, if you concede that Majestic displays abilities on the level of prime or HIGHER, why couldn't he pull off the same feats? And if logically he CAN pull off those feats, does him not actually doing it (because he's not a mainstream DC character with the opportunity to and because his universe doesn't have decades established to allow it and because its not a storyline that his writers have wanted for him in the same way) matter? Even taking this reductive way of thinking though, Majestic has had the opportunity to test himself against established DC characters. He effortlessly trashed Rampage and did better against Eradicator in every one of their interactions than Superman has done (even with Eradicators own help). He didn't get a chance to fight a truckload of Green Lanterns, but from what we see when he and Superman talk, in a short time he established himself to the point where the entire JLA (Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, GL Kyle, Flash) know to give him his space. And again, he didn't kill thousands of fodder green lanterns with no displays to their names and without the speed to actually even see him move (yeah, SUCH a hard fight for SBP...), but he did take Kyle's ring, and I think him LETTING Kyle have it back says more than Prime killing nobodies.

Hulk not being a slowpoke doesn't mean he's within the range of anyone operating at light speed. I think by this point in my recap of posts I've addressed most if not all of what you're saying, so I'd encourage you to read the rest of my post, but in summary, "immensely powerful" AOE attacks will hurt the team as much as any enemy. Also, Superman can phase through attacks and I believe WW can block area attacks with her bracers crossed. Unless these AOE attacks have infinite range, they can be avoided via repositioning. As for the idea that WW or Supes won't "abuse" their speed, I see no reason Thor and Hulk will break out tactics for fighting faster opponents but those opponents won't break out tactics for fighting powerful but slow opponents, or that Thor or Hulk would pull out all the stops physically or with energy, but Supes or WW wouldn't with speed. The idea that if Supes or WW used their speed to their best there wouldn't be any battles is no less true for Hulk and Thor and these high levels of destruction. None of these uses of power are standard, but they all come out when the story asks for it or when the enemy can take it without ruining the narrative. You're operating under the idea that one side gets to cut loose but not the other, even though Supes and WW have demonstrated speed capable of turning these two into statues, and the willingness to use it.

That's my recap of the first page, I'll have to get to page 2 at some point.

@supremegeneration: I'm a "recent mod upriser"?

Good work everyone. Or, well, most of you.

If you can come up with an area of comparison where Superboy outshines Majestic, I encourage you to bump one of the threads where the two are pitted against each other and support your position and see where that gets you.

I can't say much for your first paragraph since I don't want to get too off track just providing info on the Wildstorm characters (thought I do hope to get up some stuff for Battalion over the weekend), but for the second bit, I have a legit question about speed. Both Superman and Wonder Woman seem to be capable of operating on a level of speed where characters that operate like Thor and Hulk should be, at best, in slow motion, if not completely still. What allows Hulk (ESPECIALLY Hulk) or Thor to engage characters moving so fast that in comparison these two are practically standing still? Now, I know they don't use this speed all of the time, but if they are using this speed they're certainly capable of, what lets Thor and Hulk compete when they're statues by comparison? How much does "superior strength" matter if they can get off one hit for every hundred of their opponents' (assuming they land hits at all)? And how much behind Superman do you think Wonder Woman is?

I appreciate this response. I personally think the fights you skipped have all kinds of potential that people aren't considering, but I don't blame anyone for simply not being aware of what the characters are capable, and you did at least engage with what you knew. I do have a question about the Wonder Woman/Superman thing though. I personally like your comparison of the two, so my question isn't there, but it's at the areas where you say Thor and Hulk match Superman, and they're the same as I posed to Bruce Rogers, so check those out. Also, you mention the two match or surpass Superman in durability and striking as well as that they match him in "most areas". I'm not going to get into the particulars of individual strength and durability displays, so let's just go with what you've said. An area where they do not match and certainly do not surpass Superman is speed. Why does that not play a factor at all when the disparity is so large? And if it does play a factor, is Wonder Woman's speed closer to Superman's or Hulk and Thor's?

That's what I see as well. Pure physical strength seems to be the most important metric for people, and intelligence, skill, and speed seem to be completely irrelevant. Wish someone would explain why,

I just posted this elsewhere so I'll just copy it here: There are a number of Prime V Majestic threads where it's been gone over in far more detail, but in short, Prime doesn't have any measurable strength feats that put him beyond Majestic as they're both capable of moving planets (and Majestic has moved more massive planets), Prime has no significant operational speed feats that put him on Majestic's level, Prime is nowhere near as smart on any level and certainly not when it comes to a fight, and he's simply not as skilled a fighter as the 10,000 year old warlord who specializes in close quarters combat and always has a sword on him capable of cutting through people of his durability. Prime might be as strong as Majestic, but strength alone isn't enough against someone just as fast if not much faster, smarter, more skilled, and better armed. Prime can be as strong as he wants, but it doesn't stop Majestic from just cutting off his head while Prime is throwing a tantrum.

Also though, this "gauntlet" is less of a traditional ladder because I want to know how they do on every level, not just where they stop (which I think some people aren't getting). I wasn't really sure how to organize some of the earlier levels with Wildstorm teams, but I didn't worry about it too much for that reason.

Coming back to a question from before but I'll word it a little differently based on your post. How does strength make up for a lack of speed? And how does a gamma burst, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, just energy projection, make up for a speed gap if the opponents are lightspeed or faster? Don't want to come across as argumentative or combative though, I do like your stance on Wonder Woman.

Good thoughts. Could Wonder Woman not split them up just like Superman? I understand your view of her damage output, how do you feel her assorted weapons play into that?

What does it make you wonder? I think I'm allowed to be curious what people think about fights as well as the characters involved and want them to discuss it and maybe even learn something new in the process. If you can't understand that though, how about I point out some things that make Prime and The Ultimates different: None of The Ultimates are idiot children. Intelligence and team work count for a lot (this may be an unnecessary poke, but, didn't the teen titans take down superboy prime?). Beyond that though, at least two (it's Miss America Chavez, not Ms. Marvel btw) characters on the team shown speed that can keep them in the fight with Majestic, whereas Prime's operational speed is questionable at best. And further, it wasn't just the Ultimates against Majestic, there was a fight with prep built off their first fight where they'd get first hand knowledge of him. Them potentially losing the first fight would make their second one more interesting. Again, intelligence is a factor. In short, the Ultimates may not be as powerful as Majestic, but they're far smarter, better equipped, would have more time to prepare, and have a better team, than Prime would. Whether or not these differences amount to anything is largely down to the sort of arguments people are willing to make, but when the focus is so much on pure strength or power, I can see why people might have difficulty with the concept. Guess that wasn't so short.

A question about who would win in a fight is not the same as a claim that characters are necessarily equal. Seems that wasn't clear.

Why won't Superman know Hulk can't fly? He doesn't have to know before the fight to figure it out pretty quickly during combat. Also, Superman isn't an idiot. What is there to show that Hulk (or Thor) can "keep up" with some of Superman's operational speed feats? A good answer to this would be useful in general. No pressure.

Check a Superboy Prime Vs Majestic thread. There are a number of those I believe and there's a lot to be seen there. Also, I think I mentioned some things worth thinking about earlier in this post. To summarize that summary though (and skip the pure physicality comparison), even if they're physically equal, Majestic is far smarter, with more fighting experience and skill to his name, and is better equipped.

Thanks for the response. I wouldn't have said the same myself, but with you saying it, I can understand the thought. Despite Wonder Woman having her speed fleshed out and supported in different ways, Superman does seem to get more cool tricks out of his speed than she does (phasing, being in multiple places "at once", doing science stuff at high speeds, accelerating his consciousness, etc) and his exposure and general role as the DC top gun certainly does him a ton of favors. I think when it comes to speed DC has done enough for me to say she's got the sort of speed she'd need to do what Superman can here, but I can also see why some might disagree. Her striking and durability are similar to her speed in this regard (though I feel maybe less important in a fight where these things are so close anyway, but maybe not).

He may be smart enough to try and stay in the fight, but realistically, what could he do if Superman takes the fight with Thor to space? Or if Superman picks up Hulk and tosses him to the moon in a fraction of a second?

There are a number of Prime V Majestic threads where it's been gone over in far more detail, but in short, Prime doesn't have any measurable strength feats that put him beyond Majestic as they're both capable of moving planets (and Majestic has moved more massive planets), Prime has no significant operational speed feats that put him on Majestic's level, Prime is nowhere near as smart on any level and certainly not when it comes to a fight, and he's simply not as skilled a fighter as the 10,000 year old warlord who specializes in close quarters combat and always has a sword on him capable of cutting through people of his durability. Prime might be as strong as Majestic, but strength alone isn't enough against someone just as fast if not much faster, smarter, more skilled, and better armed. Prime can be as strong as he wants, but it doesn't stop Majestic from just cutting off his head while Prime is throwing a tantrum.

Try harder.

As I made this I was thinking that I should make a Battalion capability thread. I probably have the majority of what I need for that, but I don't have the time right this moment. I'll make it soon though and link it here.

For the record, I appreciate your participation and I'm not trying to pick on anyone and I hope no one feels that way if I respond to their posts. I'm really just trying to flesh out ideas about where people draw lines, and I'll be trying (whether or not i succeed...) to not talk much about what I think is "right" or "wrong". I just genuinely want to know what people think and why.

What's the case for Superman that doesn't apply to Wonder Woman?

Typical, Bruce Banner, Green Hulk. As far as I'm concerned "world war hulk" is still just hulk at a higher level of anger. But if you have wildly different responses based on a difference like that, feel free to go into detail about what allows one version of him to win against these characters but not another.

If I could recall exactly I would have mentioned them but I can't and so instead of bringing up stuff I can't accurately recall we can just start from here.

No, but his other swords are fair game.

Is your statement suggesting that he has the speed to do something but the speed possessed by Wonder Woman and Superman is insufficient? What speed has Prime displayed that Superman and Wonder Woman haven't? What is he bringing to the fight speed wise that those two can't? In terms of ruthlessness, what is he willing to do that anyone other than Superman isn't. As for "physicals", is it your opinion that planet-moving strength is required to be successful in this fight and that is why no one before Prime can stop them?

Ok, this kind of got out of hand. At first I kind of just wanted to see where the line was for these two since I've seen other threads where it's claimed that they "stomp" one set of characters but lose to others that aren't all that different from the first set. So the goal of this was to get actual answers about where these two fall and what makes them lose one fight and win another. But then my curiosity got the best of me and I wanted to see how they'd do against some less commonly discussed characters so I threw them in here too. The rules are simple: all characters are in their most common versions with their standard gear and are acting in character with the goal of killing or incapacitating the opposing team who they've just come across without any warning. All fights take place in the middle of Marvel Earth-616's New York while all the other heroes are on another planet fighting Thanos.

Midnighter & Apollo

Winter & The High

Battalion & Jack Hawksmoor

Wonder Woman

Superman

Superboy Prime

Majestic

So again, I'm hoping for more substantive answers than "they clear it" or "they stop at X". I'd like to know which ones they can beat and why, as well as what makes the others beyond their capabilities.