BuckshotWasHere

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BuckshotWasHere

19554

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#1 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

As much as I absolutely LOVE Minato...there's no way he's touching my boy Gojo.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#2 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@anderioan: I might be biased toward the traditional saber but I think a pike could be a good middle ground between sabers and something more unique. Cool idea.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#3 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Does anyone else find the idea of twileks and fisto's species wielding lightsabers to be kinda silly? I wish they were given different, original weapons to accommodate their anatomy...

Tell me more! How do you feel the lightsabers are mismatched to their anatomy? Do you feel the tentacles might be lopped off accidentally by the weapons? I could see that being a concern, but I also feel as though inherent in the (competent) use of a lightsaber (which most Jedi would have long mastered) is the kind of skill needed to make sure careless mistakes like self-mutilation don't happen. Additionally, it's not as though the tentacles are weightlessly flopping around. They're meaty and shouldn't be flying around chaotically and might even potentially be prehensile to some degree (though this I'm only speculating on and may be entirely wrong), allowing for them to stay in place more or less. While they do flail a bit in the live action displays (I'm thinking of Kit Fisto mainly here) I think that's just a limitation of the costume/prop, as they seem a bit more stable in the clone wars. Anyway, I'm interested to hear your thoughts about the problem and also what kinds of alternate weapons might be better.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#4 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@jonathancarlton: I shouldn't but...

I see an image of Thor throwing his hammer really fast. A magic hammer that can fly FTL on its own and has been demonstrated behaving on its own (including flying and creating vortexes on its own) and being able to increase its own speed.

I see an image of Thor having twirled his hammer really fast. A magic hammer that can fly FTL on its own and has been demonstrated behaving on its own (including flying and creating vortexes on its own) and being able to increase its own speed.

I see an image of Thor traveling with his hammer really fast. A magic hammer that can fly FTL on its own and has been demonstrated behaving on its own (including flying and creating vortexes on its own) and being able to increase its own speed.

I see a number of calculations showing how fast Mjolnir moves. Wouldn't it be great if just one of these examples weren't just Thor doing something with his magic hammer that we know the hammer can do on its own? Wouldn't it be great if just one of these examples were more than the movement of the hammer through space? Wouldn't it be great if just one of these examples went beyond a single simple action that arguably occurred at a high speed?

I love how no matter how many times something like the phrase "series of complex actions" is used, examples of those are so hard to find. You would think a character with so many appearances would make this easier. It's almost as if there is not intention of consistently presenting Thor as a character who has the same relationship with speed that you'd see in a speedster anywhere else in comics.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#5 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@jonathancarlton:

It's fun to check back in here every now and then. Fun video. I actually watched it. Mostly thoguht, it really seems like they don't understand the differentiations made in this thread. They alternately equate force of attacks, tagging opponents, and travel speed for operational speed (presumably assuming high operational speed is entailed in each of those). That lack of distinction is spefically what's being talked about in this thread. When characters are really speedsters, its far clearer to understand their speed as nothing but speed. The way Thor's speed is presented blurs how fast he is capable of clearly thinking and operating with a number of other things in a way we don't see when we get a character who says "I invented a weapon in 3.4 pico-seconds" and they're also shown doing it. It's all about presentation. Thor behaves and is presented like someone who can perform some simple actions quickly, not like someone who regularly processes the world in slow motion. It's really as simple as that. He behaves like Captain America or Deathstroke or Midnighter, not Flash. He dodges and blocks bullets and energy beams and goes back and forth with other fighters, often getting off some suprisingly fast single attacks and simple motions, but he doesn't walk around his enemies like they're in slow motion with any regularity,, he doesn't hit foes a couple dozen times before they react, he doesn't do the things characters like Flash do routinely. He and Flash might look even in a race, but Thor isn't keeping up in a game of patty cake or playing high speed chess. The ability to consciously and thoughtfully perform a series of discrete actions in systematized way isn't normal for Thor. The best evidence for him being able to do something like high speed processing beyond simple reactions is possibly him flying on Mjolnir. Only problem is, we know for a fact Mjolnir can pilot itself and need only understand Thor's general desires to perform in a way he would like.

They also don't seem to understand metaphor (or the entire reason for the section on unclear and metaphorical examples). To clarify, the feats in those sections aren't to puff up or downplay Thor, they're just cataloging what people frequently use when talking about his speed. And while they want to say "it clearly says he's as fast as lightning and that's quantifiable", the point is that metaphors exist. "As fast as lightning" is the kind of colorful descriptor that has been used in comics for a number of characters so it's unclear if it's being used literally sometimes. Otherwise we'd have to say that Spider-Man or Captain America is literally as fast as their measures of lightning because it's been used to describe those characters too. That's why those statements aren't relied on and others are sought.

Coming back to how they don't seem to understand that there can be a distinction between travel speed, reaction speed, and operational speed...

They use an example of driving a car and reaction speed, suggesting that driving a car means you have reactions at that speed. I guess they don't know that you can drive faster than you can react to and that people get into car accidents doing that all the time. Did you know, you can drive fast enough that were you to hit a wall, you'd die before your body could react or your mind was aware of it? There are speeds at which you can react and make decisions in pace with your car, but you can in fact exceed those speeds. And that's not even getting into the difference between reacting and operating. These distinctions can be relevant for some characters more than others, and given that Thor is famous for having a tool that allows him to move quickly that can operate entirely independently of him and for him, it's certainly relevant for him,

To answer a question directly: "If Thor is a bullet timer, what is he doing on the Avengers? What is his role if he's slower than Cap like they're saying?"

Even if the idea was that Thor is slower than Cap (it's not though, let's be clear), he's still incredibly strong, incredibly durable, has lived for thousands of years and traversed countless realms (with the many benefits of that), can wield magic to some degree, has a magic hammer (with, among other things, is FTL), and typically has a wealth of physical and human resources in the form of the other Asgardians. He doesn't need to be faster than Cap to have a role.

In short, lemme know when Thor isn't just punching fast people about as much as he gets punched by slow people, doesn't just dodge and block bullets and lasers just like Captain America can, doesn't get his speed described using the same metaphors every other street level character does, doesn't just occasionally get the same kind of quick reaction feat that Iron Fist and Deathstroke can brag about, doesn't just perform a simple action in a short period of time, or get carried by his magic hammer, and instead does something more like seeing the world in slow motion, carefully performing a series of complex actions in an instant, reading a book in the blink of an eye, or assembling something that requires thought in under a second.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

When he acts like Flash, I'll think he's as fast as Flash.

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BuckshotWasHere

19554

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BuckshotWasHere

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#7 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Gosh, I can't really imagine there's a huge number of people on this site who have seen both of these shows. However, I happen to be one such person. That said, it's....been a minute since I've seen either of these so my response is mostly just going off vague memory. I'm going to go with the Sentinel, as Fawkes would still be audible and so, easily tracked, and perhaps the fact that he gets incredibly cold (IIRC) would be another indicator of his location and enough for him to catch a bullet.

Hahaha Round 2 should be against the Pretender

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BuckshotWasHere

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#8 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@camilopezo said:

Black Panther > Winter Soldier

Black Panther wins

um no winter solider didnt want to kill him BP wanted to kill him big difference

WS had no problem killing (Cap was saving soldiers from him) people in his way when he escaped his apartment. BP got in his way and BP had him on the ropes and outside interference gave WS what he needed to get away. WS was in kill mode when Zemo freed him and BP again had him on the ropes (this time with no suit) and again WS ran when he got an opening. Winter Soldier's willingness to kill was not the thing that kept him from being Black Panther's equal.

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BuckshotWasHere

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#9 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@buckshotwashere: superman is not stronger than all speedsters. Wally would easily beat superman and Bart Allen blooded up super boy prime. Wally west would curb stomp superman if they actually fought. Anyway idk too much about blue beetle but I'm sure he could use kryptonite to weaken superman but idk about blue beetle that much. I'm just now getting into the character.

9 years ago, really? Now, did I say (9 years ago) that Superman was "stronger than all speedsters"? I don't believe so. I believe what I was saying was that Superman is capable of stronger hits than what Wally is demonstrating on that page, which is being used as a measure for Blue Beetle's defense. It's not about whether a Flash can beat Superman, it was about how much force Flash seemed to be hitting BB with and how much more force Superman is capable of. Flashes being capable of high levels of destruction or even outright beating Superman doesn't have much to do with Superman being able to easily hit harder than what it looks like was taking place in the pages posted.

Now I've looked back at the first page just to see if maybe what you were talking about was there. Looks like I did say Superman is stronger than any Flash. I stand by it. Superman IS stronger than any Flash. A speedster being able to impart as much force as Superman through speed exploits, doesn't actually make them stronger, and being able to beat someone doesn't make you stronger. Blink could kill Thing by teleporting him into the sun but her ability to beat him doesn't make her stronger. But back to the speed/strength thing, come at me when a Flash can physically lift and carry a pyramid.

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#10  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator
@jashro44 said:

@buckshotwashere: The brain surgery thing happened in doctor stranges book (which is also written by Aarons as well):

If I had to make a guess she is using Mojlnir to amp her speed (she says she didn't even know she could move at this speed, and as she is moving there is lightning flying every where). If that is what is happening its possible the real thor doesn't know how to do this which would explain why he never has done this. All though that is just me speculating. The issue is Doctor Strange #18 - The World's Finest Super-Surgeons.

Oh that's really great. I like it a lot. I'm pretty sure it's the only actual example of Thor* displaying operational speed in the way that people generally look for in speedsters. Hadn't seen that one since I'm very behind on strange. The asterisk is because, of course, this isn't actually Thor, and I think what I and others said previously holds true, that we can't really assume everyone with Thor's powers are equal, and if we do, the Masterson displays would also need to be considered. Even beyond that though, if we did say regular Thor could do such a thing, despite never actually showing it, it would be one display against the entirety of his history. I do think your speculation is reasonable though. Just another reason for me to like Jane Thor.

I'm having a problem replying to conorwolf without deleting the other part of this post so I'll just have to do it a different way:

This is a terrible point. Masterson did not have all of Thor's abilities, he said this himself, and admitted he was slower than Thor. Someone who gains their powers from Thor can be weaker than him, but unless they gain powers from another source, they cannot possibly be more powerful or faster than him.

You can make the claim that Masterson didn't have all of Thor's abilities, but the claim can also be made that Thor doesn't have all of Jane's simply because she displays abilities and uses of Mjolnir that he does not. Beyond that we have direct claims from Thor stating some things Jane does are things he can not or has not. I'm not going to claim to know how magic works in a fictional universe, but I can pretty clearly point to her doing things he does not and him commenting on that fact. I don't actually need to show where Jane gets her speed from, I just need to show that she can do things Thor doesn't, and I think that's pretty clearly been demonstrated. But for fun, the question of where Jane gets her power: Thor get his power from being born a god. Jane gets it from Mjolnir. And before you go saying that Thor had Mjolnir too so they can do the same things, that's again clearly shown to be not the case. Jane does things with Mjolnir that Thor does not or can not. Jane may get Thor's powers from Mjolnir, but she also has a unique relationship with the hammer and since she got it it's been doing things with and for her that it hasn't been shown to do with Thor, again, even to the point where he's commented on it.

So does Thor, you simply make excuses as to why they do not count. I show you Thor swinging his hammer twice the speed of light, you retort with "That doesn't count". If your only response is "that doesn't count" then you should re-examine your position.

Let's actually check that out. Let's see what I do when presented with Thor swinging his hammer twice the speed of light. Lemme take stuff I wrote on the first page: "These are Thor's displays where he performs any action clearly outside the range of what can be considered street level but not as a series of systematic actions." That was after I posted images of Thor twirling his hammer FTL. Now, have I said that this doesn't count? No. That section is actually titled "High Reflexive Speed". I gave it its own section to highlight it as a high speed display. I am of course not going to call it high operational speed, but that's not me saying it doesn't count. It does count, but it counts as speed used with a single simple motion, not anything like the sorts of displays we have from speedsters. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with me describing it accurately. I actually go over this display in a few areas, let's look: In another section I file it under "Explicit speed measures/descriptions", and again, I think I'm giving the display its due. And I come back to those kinds of displays again later: "Thor does not demonstrate the sort of operational speed characters like Flash do and most of his quantifiable speed feats are within the wide range of street level speed. Or put another way, when the question is put forth, "Can Thor fight at high speed?" the answer seems to be no. If fighting is a continuous action, a back and forth of blows or movements, a two-sided exchange and physical combat, then Thor doesn't do that. Characters like Flash or Quicksilver fight at high speed. Thor seems to display only the ability to deliver a single blow or similar action at a high speed, which is the same that can be said for Deathstroke, Midnighter, and "street level characters". There doesn't actually seem to be anything Thor does that can't be replicated by street level or borderline street level characters, and there are displays from "true speedsters" that Thor does not appear to match, even in his decades-old showings, where most of his "high speed" displays come from." So am I saying it doesn't count or am I comparing it and contrasting it with far more clear displays of operational speed? I honestly don't have any issue with Thor's speed, I just don't think that the idea that he can operate anything like a character like Flash is supported by his displays. If it were, that's what I'd present, but when you put all his displays together, none of them look like someone like Flash's displays, and even his very best ones look like what top tier street level characters can pull off.

Oh, I did miss something. Instead of rewriting, let me just get this from the first page, from where I gave the hammer spinning its own section because it's the closest thing to evidence of operational speed that Thor has: "Thor talks about spinning his hammer even when its spinning on its own, out of his hand. In one instance he throws it and it spins FASTER than it was in his hand. It's pretty common to attribute the speed Mjolnir flies, its ability to tow Thor through space, and even some fun tricks to the hammer, but perhaps even the spinning itself is more an attribute of the hammer than Thor himself." I presented displays of Thor's hammer moving faster than light without Thor's physical input and being thrown and spinning itself faster independently of Thor. I think its reasonable to consider that given that the hammer is literally capable of spinning faster than light on its own, that maybe it has more to do with the hammer than Thor. (Not that it would really be necessary, because again, the hammer spinning is also a single simple action and not a display of operational speed that basically any other character with speed can be shown to have.)

I think this clearly shows that my response is more than "that doesn't count". But sure, reduce it to those terms. I have no problem saying that the sort of high end displays Thor has, as rare and old as as they are, do not measure up to the operational speed feats of speedster characters. A single thrown punch "does not count" as the kind of speed being demonstrated when a character searches a group of people one by one in a picosecond, or teaches himself to build an apartment in moments an then does so, or evacuates a city one or two people at a time while it is exploding. Do you think throwing a single punch is the same as those sorts of acts?

Just because Marvel doesn't spell out their feats, doesn't mean they don't count.

This is precisely why I provided displays from characters in Marvel. Marvel is perfectly capable of displaying speed like speedsters from other publishers. Heck, even the display from Jane proves Marvel is capable of showing it. You saying that Thor not showing evidence of something can't be used to support the idea that he can't do it, is ridiculous, regardless of the reason. Blame Marvel for not showing it (which they clearly could do if they wanted to) if you want, but that doesn't actually provide any evidence of him doing it.

Ok, so because Thor has a particular narrative about him, none of his feats count?

Not what I've said. And what of the reverse? Should his feats "count" because he has this narrative? Does that suddenly mean Deathstroke an Spider-Man are literally able to operate at the speed of lightning? The narrative has been used with them as well, which I've shown. That sort of narration doesn't prove or disprove anything on its own. I'm not saying Thor doesn't display the speed because of the narration, I'm saying he doesn't display the speed because he doesn't display the speed. The narration is something your "side" wants to use as support (even though applied logically to all characters, it doesn't hold up), to me it just means nothing.

Except Thor's speed feats are not in line with Batman, they are in line with Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Hyperion, so on, and so on, and so on... Every time he fights someone with super speed, he comes out with absolutely no disadvantage. Ignoring that is ignoring evidence.

Except, as I've shown on the first page, his speed feats are in line with characters like Batman. All the things he does are replicated by characters like Batman, Captain America, Midnighter, and Deathstroke. You're making the same sort of mistake I mentioned earlier, confusing power for speed. Thor being able to fight the sorts of characters you've mentioned doesn't mean he's as fast as them, it just means his power (whether direct might or other uses of powers) is sufficient to contend evenly with them. I don't ignore that Thor can fight these characters, but I'm not attributing that to his speed when that's not called for. You say Thor isn't like Batman, but I have a whole section of Thor reacting to, tagging, and otherwise "dealing with" people with speed, and he does it like a street level character. He pretty clearly does not go blow for blow with them at high speed like a true speedster. He clotheslines characters like Wolverine does, he doesn't throw countless punches while the world stands still the way Quicksilver does. Even his extended fights don't show any more speed than what Deathstroke displays against Wonder Woman. So again, Thor fighting characters who are fast doesn't mean he is as fast as them, particularly when they largely neglect to use their own operational speed against him.

I'm not saying certain speed feats don't count, I'm saying they fit within a range of speeds street level characters routinely achieve. Thor's speed is consistently in line with displays by street level characters, even when you go back to really old and high end displays or rely on metaphors like him "moving like lightning".

And not only are his speed displays on par with street level characters, even his best ones where he pushes the boundaries of street level, he lacks speed displays of characters like Flash where he's able to consistently operate at a high speed. If street level characters can be shown to consistently move as fast as Thor, what evidence is there that Thor is faster?

Ok. In most comic book panels Superman is not operating at lightspeed, therefore he cannot fight at lightspeed... this is a stupid argument. In most of Flash's panels he's not moving lightspeed, in most of Green Lantern's fights he's not moving at lightspeed, so why is Thor special? I'll give you a hint, nothing about being comparable to street levelers is special. By your logic, every Justice League comic with Batman, Hawkman, Aquaman, etc... are proof that nobody in the Justice League fights at lightspeed because none of these characters are lightspeed, and the fact they are even participating in the fight proves that the fight is taking place at a speed they can comprehend.

Apply your same logic to any other character and it breaks down. That is all the proof I need to tell you exactly why you are wrong.

You have no grasp of my logic. I'm not saying Thor has street level speed because he isn't constantly operating at high speeds. I'm saying Thor has street level speed because even when he is operating at HIS "high" speeds, it's stuff street level characters can do. I'm leaving the section of my post you quoted this time because it clearly states that I'm not just using Thor's walk-about-town speed, but even comparing his best displays. I underlined it. You can continue to attempt to misrepresent my position, but it will get you nowhere.

Either or Fallacy. Supporting that Batman is not lightspeed does not mean supporting Thor is not lightspeed. Again, turn this argument around, Batman easily dodges Superman when Superman isn't holding back, this, by your logic, means Superman is not lightspeed because he can't even outspeed Batman... There's even an in-character reason that Thor doesn't go lightspeed when he's fighting street levelers, because he's wielding a hammer that can crush a planet as easily as a normal hammer could a pebble. You know what happens if he goes even mach speeds against someone like Spider-Man? Spider-Man gets turned to vapor. He blatantly states that he holds back and never goes all-out, or even close to it against mortals, so what in god's name makes you think he would ever suddenly decide "You know what I'm going to hit this mortal so hard he vaporizes on the spot"?

You again have no grasp of my argument. In that example, I wouldn't be saying Superman is not lightspeed because he can't tag Batman. If you'll again look at the first page, I covered this (though sort of in reverse with the idea that everyone gets hit). If I were to say that Superman isn't lightspeed, it wouldnt be because he can't hit a character who isn't. I haven't said Thor isn't lightspeed because he can't tag street level characters. This isn't based on who can hit whom. I'm saying Thor isn't lightspeed because he does not demonstrate that operational speed. You've thoroughly misread everything in this thread if you think I'm suggesting Thor is street level because he can't tag characters. It's not at all about who he can hit and who he can't, it's about the sorts of feats he performs and the operational speed of other characters that can perform similar feats.

And your argument that Thor holds back so he doesn't kill people only serves to undercut your point, as I've said to others who've tried this defense. Thor's total inability to control himself at high speed only goes to show that his speed is restricted to single simple actions and not actual displays of operational speed. Flash has his infinite mass punch and Superman could destroy a planet if he hit it hard enough, yet both of these characters have complete control when they interact with others at high speed. Superman being able to quickly catch or move someone at high speed shows that not just his body is moving in a simple, barely controlled way, but that every part of him is operating at that speed, including his mind and his perceptions, allowing him to make precise and delicate moves even at high speed without hurting anyone. Thor can't do the same and must hold back because he lacks actual operational speed.

Consistency is a terrible argument in comic books where I can find images of Superman being overwhelmed by sound-based attacks or unable to dodge a simple blow from a street leveler. I can take any consistency argument and apply it to a situation where that logic does not make sense. If you cannot apply your argument to every situation and have it make sense then it's not logical.

You know what my argument is? Take every character on what should be their best day. Exempt things that they clearly should not be capable of (things like Batman tagging Flash, Captain America outspeeding an ICBM, Hulk hurting Celestials, Superman generating the Big Bang so on, and so forth). There, you can apply that universally and have it work. Are you going to have people who argue what a character should or should not be capable of? Absolutely, but it makes more sense than arguing "Well out of 500 fights Character X has only used pressure points 37 times, he doesn't use them more than half the time, so therefore he doesn't use them ever!" or "Well Thor doesn't move lightspeed against street levelers, so he can't go lightspeed!" I do not understand how that sounds like a logical argument in your mind. It is utterly ridiculous.

You keep thinking I'm making some sort of "consistency" argument when I'm not, or at least not the sort you've been trying to force my statements to fit. It's not about what percentage of the time Thor displays flash-like operational speed (well it is i guess, and that percentage is 0%). Also, you say that an argument should apply to every situation, let's use that. You've jumped across many reasons to say that Thor fast in the way we're discussing, but if you apply that to street level characters who do the same things, then logically they should be as fast as Thor, right? Well as luck would have it, I compiled dozens of examples of characters doing what Thor can on the first page. If blocking lasers makes Thor FTL, Captain America is too. If Thor's movement being described like lightning makes him FTL, then Deathstroke is too. If fighting FTL characters makes Thor FTL, the Deathstroke is too. If moving faster than sight makes him FTL, then deathstroke is too. If reacting in a microsecond makes thor ftl, then Iron Fist is too. If hitting speedsters with AOE attacks makes him FTL, Deathstroke is too. If it's gotta be a clothesline, then Wolverine is FTL too. (You know, the nice thing about Deathstroke is that when he tags or outright beats speedsters, unlike Thor, it's specifically credited to his speed.) Applying the reasoning for Thor being FTL to street level characters makes a goo number of them FTL too. So what makes more sense, that all these street level characters (and more) are FTL, or that Thor isn't?

You seem to have no understanding of what's been written, but no matter, your statement falls apart on its own. You say we should exempt things characters clearly should not be capable of, but how is that decided? I think it's quite reasonable to say that Thor should clearly not be capable of operational speed beyond that of a top tier street level fighter since that is the level of operational speed he shows. You'd like to say he "should" be capable of more based on his "power", or him fighting characters with speed (like street level characters have), or performing reflexive actions at a high speed (like street level characters have), or any number of other things street level characters can do, but none of that is a display of operational speed beyond that of a street level character. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand this, but clearly there's not much I can do about that.