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BuckshotWasHere

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#1 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Gosh, I can't really imagine there's a huge number of people on this site who have seen both of these shows. However, I happen to be one such person. That said, it's....been a minute since I've seen either of these so my response is mostly just going off vague memory. I'm going to go with the Sentinel, as Fawkes would still be audible and so, easily tracked, and perhaps the fact that he gets incredibly cold (IIRC) would be another indicator of his location and enough for him to catch a bullet.

Hahaha Round 2 should be against the Pretender

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#2 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@camilopezo said:

Black Panther > Winter Soldier

Black Panther wins

um no winter solider didnt want to kill him BP wanted to kill him big difference

WS had no problem killing (Cap was saving soldiers from him) people in his way when he escaped his apartment. BP got in his way and BP had him on the ropes and outside interference gave WS what he needed to get away. WS was in kill mode when Zemo freed him and BP again had him on the ropes (this time with no suit) and again WS ran when he got an opening. Winter Soldier's willingness to kill was not the thing that kept him from being Black Panther's equal.

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#3 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@buckshotwashere: superman is not stronger than all speedsters. Wally would easily beat superman and Bart Allen blooded up super boy prime. Wally west would curb stomp superman if they actually fought. Anyway idk too much about blue beetle but I'm sure he could use kryptonite to weaken superman but idk about blue beetle that much. I'm just now getting into the character.

9 years ago, really? Now, did I say (9 years ago) that Superman was "stronger than all speedsters"? I don't believe so. I believe what I was saying was that Superman is capable of stronger hits than what Wally is demonstrating on that page, which is being used as a measure for Blue Beetle's defense. It's not about whether a Flash can beat Superman, it was about how much force Flash seemed to be hitting BB with and how much more force Superman is capable of. Flashes being capable of high levels of destruction or even outright beating Superman doesn't have much to do with Superman being able to easily hit harder than what it looks like was taking place in the pages posted.

Now I've looked back at the first page just to see if maybe what you were talking about was there. Looks like I did say Superman is stronger than any Flash. I stand by it. Superman IS stronger than any Flash. A speedster being able to impart as much force as Superman through speed exploits, doesn't actually make them stronger, and being able to beat someone doesn't make you stronger. Blink could kill Thing by teleporting him into the sun but her ability to beat him doesn't make her stronger. But back to the speed/strength thing, come at me when a Flash can physically lift and carry a pyramid.

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#4  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator
@jashro44 said:

@buckshotwashere: The brain surgery thing happened in doctor stranges book (which is also written by Aarons as well):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

If I had to make a guess she is using Mojlnir to amp her speed (she says she didn't even know she could move at this speed, and as she is moving there is lightning flying every where). If that is what is happening its possible the real thor doesn't know how to do this which would explain why he never has done this. All though that is just me speculating. The issue is Doctor Strange #18 - The World's Finest Super-Surgeons.

Oh that's really great. I like it a lot. I'm pretty sure it's the only actual example of Thor* displaying operational speed in the way that people generally look for in speedsters. Hadn't seen that one since I'm very behind on strange. The asterisk is because, of course, this isn't actually Thor, and I think what I and others said previously holds true, that we can't really assume everyone with Thor's powers are equal, and if we do, the Masterson displays would also need to be considered. Even beyond that though, if we did say regular Thor could do such a thing, despite never actually showing it, it would be one display against the entirety of his history. I do think your speculation is reasonable though. Just another reason for me to like Jane Thor.

I'm having a problem replying to conorwolf without deleting the other part of this post so I'll just have to do it a different way:

This is a terrible point. Masterson did not have all of Thor's abilities, he said this himself, and admitted he was slower than Thor. Someone who gains their powers from Thor can be weaker than him, but unless they gain powers from another source, they cannot possibly be more powerful or faster than him.

You can make the claim that Masterson didn't have all of Thor's abilities, but the claim can also be made that Thor doesn't have all of Jane's simply because she displays abilities and uses of Mjolnir that he does not. Beyond that we have direct claims from Thor stating some things Jane does are things he can not or has not. I'm not going to claim to know how magic works in a fictional universe, but I can pretty clearly point to her doing things he does not and him commenting on that fact. I don't actually need to show where Jane gets her speed from, I just need to show that she can do things Thor doesn't, and I think that's pretty clearly been demonstrated. But for fun, the question of where Jane gets her power: Thor get his power from being born a god. Jane gets it from Mjolnir. And before you go saying that Thor had Mjolnir too so they can do the same things, that's again clearly shown to be not the case. Jane does things with Mjolnir that Thor does not or can not. Jane may get Thor's powers from Mjolnir, but she also has a unique relationship with the hammer and since she got it it's been doing things with and for her that it hasn't been shown to do with Thor, again, even to the point where he's commented on it.

So does Thor, you simply make excuses as to why they do not count. I show you Thor swinging his hammer twice the speed of light, you retort with "That doesn't count". If your only response is "that doesn't count" then you should re-examine your position.

Let's actually check that out. Let's see what I do when presented with Thor swinging his hammer twice the speed of light. Lemme take stuff I wrote on the first page: "These are Thor's displays where he performs any action clearly outside the range of what can be considered street level but not as a series of systematic actions." That was after I posted images of Thor twirling his hammer FTL. Now, have I said that this doesn't count? No. That section is actually titled "High Reflexive Speed". I gave it its own section to highlight it as a high speed display. I am of course not going to call it high operational speed, but that's not me saying it doesn't count. It does count, but it counts as speed used with a single simple motion, not anything like the sorts of displays we have from speedsters. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with me describing it accurately. I actually go over this display in a few areas, let's look: In another section I file it under "Explicit speed measures/descriptions", and again, I think I'm giving the display its due. And I come back to those kinds of displays again later: "Thor does not demonstrate the sort of operational speed characters like Flash do and most of his quantifiable speed feats are within the wide range of street level speed. Or put another way, when the question is put forth, "Can Thor fight at high speed?" the answer seems to be no. If fighting is a continuous action, a back and forth of blows or movements, a two-sided exchange and physical combat, then Thor doesn't do that. Characters like Flash or Quicksilver fight at high speed. Thor seems to display only the ability to deliver a single blow or similar action at a high speed, which is the same that can be said for Deathstroke, Midnighter, and "street level characters". There doesn't actually seem to be anything Thor does that can't be replicated by street level or borderline street level characters, and there are displays from "true speedsters" that Thor does not appear to match, even in his decades-old showings, where most of his "high speed" displays come from." So am I saying it doesn't count or am I comparing it and contrasting it with far more clear displays of operational speed? I honestly don't have any issue with Thor's speed, I just don't think that the idea that he can operate anything like a character like Flash is supported by his displays. If it were, that's what I'd present, but when you put all his displays together, none of them look like someone like Flash's displays, and even his very best ones look like what top tier street level characters can pull off.

Oh, I did miss something. Instead of rewriting, let me just get this from the first page, from where I gave the hammer spinning its own section because it's the closest thing to evidence of operational speed that Thor has: "Thor talks about spinning his hammer even when its spinning on its own, out of his hand. In one instance he throws it and it spins FASTER than it was in his hand. It's pretty common to attribute the speed Mjolnir flies, its ability to tow Thor through space, and even some fun tricks to the hammer, but perhaps even the spinning itself is more an attribute of the hammer than Thor himself." I presented displays of Thor's hammer moving faster than light without Thor's physical input and being thrown and spinning itself faster independently of Thor. I think its reasonable to consider that given that the hammer is literally capable of spinning faster than light on its own, that maybe it has more to do with the hammer than Thor. (Not that it would really be necessary, because again, the hammer spinning is also a single simple action and not a display of operational speed that basically any other character with speed can be shown to have.)

I think this clearly shows that my response is more than "that doesn't count". But sure, reduce it to those terms. I have no problem saying that the sort of high end displays Thor has, as rare and old as as they are, do not measure up to the operational speed feats of speedster characters. A single thrown punch "does not count" as the kind of speed being demonstrated when a character searches a group of people one by one in a picosecond, or teaches himself to build an apartment in moments an then does so, or evacuates a city one or two people at a time while it is exploding. Do you think throwing a single punch is the same as those sorts of acts?

Just because Marvel doesn't spell out their feats, doesn't mean they don't count.

This is precisely why I provided displays from characters in Marvel. Marvel is perfectly capable of displaying speed like speedsters from other publishers. Heck, even the display from Jane proves Marvel is capable of showing it. You saying that Thor not showing evidence of something can't be used to support the idea that he can't do it, is ridiculous, regardless of the reason. Blame Marvel for not showing it (which they clearly could do if they wanted to) if you want, but that doesn't actually provide any evidence of him doing it.

Ok, so because Thor has a particular narrative about him, none of his feats count?

Not what I've said. And what of the reverse? Should his feats "count" because he has this narrative? Does that suddenly mean Deathstroke an Spider-Man are literally able to operate at the speed of lightning? The narrative has been used with them as well, which I've shown. That sort of narration doesn't prove or disprove anything on its own. I'm not saying Thor doesn't display the speed because of the narration, I'm saying he doesn't display the speed because he doesn't display the speed. The narration is something your "side" wants to use as support (even though applied logically to all characters, it doesn't hold up), to me it just means nothing.

Except Thor's speed feats are not in line with Batman, they are in line with Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Hyperion, so on, and so on, and so on... Every time he fights someone with super speed, he comes out with absolutely no disadvantage. Ignoring that is ignoring evidence.

Except, as I've shown on the first page, his speed feats are in line with characters like Batman. All the things he does are replicated by characters like Batman, Captain America, Midnighter, and Deathstroke. You're making the same sort of mistake I mentioned earlier, confusing power for speed. Thor being able to fight the sorts of characters you've mentioned doesn't mean he's as fast as them, it just means his power (whether direct might or other uses of powers) is sufficient to contend evenly with them. I don't ignore that Thor can fight these characters, but I'm not attributing that to his speed when that's not called for. You say Thor isn't like Batman, but I have a whole section of Thor reacting to, tagging, and otherwise "dealing with" people with speed, and he does it like a street level character. He pretty clearly does not go blow for blow with them at high speed like a true speedster. He clotheslines characters like Wolverine does, he doesn't throw countless punches while the world stands still the way Quicksilver does. Even his extended fights don't show any more speed than what Deathstroke displays against Wonder Woman. So again, Thor fighting characters who are fast doesn't mean he is as fast as them, particularly when they largely neglect to use their own operational speed against him.

I'm not saying certain speed feats don't count, I'm saying they fit within a range of speeds street level characters routinely achieve. Thor's speed is consistently in line with displays by street level characters, even when you go back to really old and high end displays or rely on metaphors like him "moving like lightning".

And not only are his speed displays on par with street level characters, even his best ones where he pushes the boundaries of street level, he lacks speed displays of characters like Flash where he's able to consistently operate at a high speed. If street level characters can be shown to consistently move as fast as Thor, what evidence is there that Thor is faster?

Ok. In most comic book panels Superman is not operating at lightspeed, therefore he cannot fight at lightspeed... this is a stupid argument. In most of Flash's panels he's not moving lightspeed, in most of Green Lantern's fights he's not moving at lightspeed, so why is Thor special? I'll give you a hint, nothing about being comparable to street levelers is special. By your logic, every Justice League comic with Batman, Hawkman, Aquaman, etc... are proof that nobody in the Justice League fights at lightspeed because none of these characters are lightspeed, and the fact they are even participating in the fight proves that the fight is taking place at a speed they can comprehend.

Apply your same logic to any other character and it breaks down. That is all the proof I need to tell you exactly why you are wrong.

You have no grasp of my logic. I'm not saying Thor has street level speed because he isn't constantly operating at high speeds. I'm saying Thor has street level speed because even when he is operating at HIS "high" speeds, it's stuff street level characters can do. I'm leaving the section of my post you quoted this time because it clearly states that I'm not just using Thor's walk-about-town speed, but even comparing his best displays. I underlined it. You can continue to attempt to misrepresent my position, but it will get you nowhere.

Either or Fallacy. Supporting that Batman is not lightspeed does not mean supporting Thor is not lightspeed. Again, turn this argument around, Batman easily dodges Superman when Superman isn't holding back, this, by your logic, means Superman is not lightspeed because he can't even outspeed Batman... There's even an in-character reason that Thor doesn't go lightspeed when he's fighting street levelers, because he's wielding a hammer that can crush a planet as easily as a normal hammer could a pebble. You know what happens if he goes even mach speeds against someone like Spider-Man? Spider-Man gets turned to vapor. He blatantly states that he holds back and never goes all-out, or even close to it against mortals, so what in god's name makes you think he would ever suddenly decide "You know what I'm going to hit this mortal so hard he vaporizes on the spot"?

You again have no grasp of my argument. In that example, I wouldn't be saying Superman is not lightspeed because he can't tag Batman. If you'll again look at the first page, I covered this (though sort of in reverse with the idea that everyone gets hit). If I were to say that Superman isn't lightspeed, it wouldnt be because he can't hit a character who isn't. I haven't said Thor isn't lightspeed because he can't tag street level characters. This isn't based on who can hit whom. I'm saying Thor isn't lightspeed because he does not demonstrate that operational speed. You've thoroughly misread everything in this thread if you think I'm suggesting Thor is street level because he can't tag characters. It's not at all about who he can hit and who he can't, it's about the sorts of feats he performs and the operational speed of other characters that can perform similar feats.

And your argument that Thor holds back so he doesn't kill people only serves to undercut your point, as I've said to others who've tried this defense. Thor's total inability to control himself at high speed only goes to show that his speed is restricted to single simple actions and not actual displays of operational speed. Flash has his infinite mass punch and Superman could destroy a planet if he hit it hard enough, yet both of these characters have complete control when they interact with others at high speed. Superman being able to quickly catch or move someone at high speed shows that not just his body is moving in a simple, barely controlled way, but that every part of him is operating at that speed, including his mind and his perceptions, allowing him to make precise and delicate moves even at high speed without hurting anyone. Thor can't do the same and must hold back because he lacks actual operational speed.

Consistency is a terrible argument in comic books where I can find images of Superman being overwhelmed by sound-based attacks or unable to dodge a simple blow from a street leveler. I can take any consistency argument and apply it to a situation where that logic does not make sense. If you cannot apply your argument to every situation and have it make sense then it's not logical.

You know what my argument is? Take every character on what should be their best day. Exempt things that they clearly should not be capable of (things like Batman tagging Flash, Captain America outspeeding an ICBM, Hulk hurting Celestials, Superman generating the Big Bang so on, and so forth). There, you can apply that universally and have it work. Are you going to have people who argue what a character should or should not be capable of? Absolutely, but it makes more sense than arguing "Well out of 500 fights Character X has only used pressure points 37 times, he doesn't use them more than half the time, so therefore he doesn't use them ever!" or "Well Thor doesn't move lightspeed against street levelers, so he can't go lightspeed!" I do not understand how that sounds like a logical argument in your mind. It is utterly ridiculous.

You keep thinking I'm making some sort of "consistency" argument when I'm not, or at least not the sort you've been trying to force my statements to fit. It's not about what percentage of the time Thor displays flash-like operational speed (well it is i guess, and that percentage is 0%). Also, you say that an argument should apply to every situation, let's use that. You've jumped across many reasons to say that Thor fast in the way we're discussing, but if you apply that to street level characters who do the same things, then logically they should be as fast as Thor, right? Well as luck would have it, I compiled dozens of examples of characters doing what Thor can on the first page. If blocking lasers makes Thor FTL, Captain America is too. If Thor's movement being described like lightning makes him FTL, then Deathstroke is too. If fighting FTL characters makes Thor FTL, the Deathstroke is too. If moving faster than sight makes him FTL, then deathstroke is too. If reacting in a microsecond makes thor ftl, then Iron Fist is too. If hitting speedsters with AOE attacks makes him FTL, Deathstroke is too. If it's gotta be a clothesline, then Wolverine is FTL too. (You know, the nice thing about Deathstroke is that when he tags or outright beats speedsters, unlike Thor, it's specifically credited to his speed.) Applying the reasoning for Thor being FTL to street level characters makes a goo number of them FTL too. So what makes more sense, that all these street level characters (and more) are FTL, or that Thor isn't?

You seem to have no understanding of what's been written, but no matter, your statement falls apart on its own. You say we should exempt things characters clearly should not be capable of, but how is that decided? I think it's quite reasonable to say that Thor should clearly not be capable of operational speed beyond that of a top tier street level fighter since that is the level of operational speed he shows. You'd like to say he "should" be capable of more based on his "power", or him fighting characters with speed (like street level characters have), or performing reflexive actions at a high speed (like street level characters have), or any number of other things street level characters can do, but none of that is a display of operational speed beyond that of a street level character. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand this, but clearly there's not much I can do about that.

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#5 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Didn't realize this was still a thing...

@lvenger said:

Except that Jane was the one who performed the speed feat and it contradicts Odinson's decades of struggling to tag street levellers and superhuman speedsters alike. Besides, Thor fanboys were claiming Masterson's embarrassing speed feats don't count because he was slower than the real Thor, yet they jump at the chance to claim he can replicate what Jane did in spite of his track record on speed.

I think this is a marvelous point. I've actually been really enjoying the things Jane has done with Mjolnir, and even saving some of the best displays, but for years people have said that we can't attribute Masterson's speed to Thor, and I think if that is to hold true, we also can't attribute Jane's to Thor. Truth be told, I'm not sure if really would change much (I'd love to see the brain surgery thing posted here, I'm not recalling it at the moment), but I do think it's only fair we be consistent.

The argument of "A street leveler did it, so Thor doing it doesn't count" is so biased and forced. I could make that argument for anything. Batman dodged the Omega Beams, so Flash doing it doesn't count. Batman beat up the Flash so Flash is street level.

Buckshot, I'm honestly touched that what was probably our debate sparked such intense spite in you that you made an entire blog about it. I hope you had fun, but you're still wrong.

Subjectivity, subjectivity everywhere.

I...don't actually remember our debate? In any case, the issue with you doing the same thing with Batman and Flash is that if you remove from Flash the feats that are reproduced by Batman (and let's assume the displays are actually equal for the sake of argument...which they are not and that's clear from what you've posted) then Flash still has numerous displays that support claims of his speed. Furthermore, Flash has numerous displays with clearly described speed measures. It's not the case that all or even most of Flash's speed feats have either been performed by characters without significant speed or have loose metaphors as the closest thing to a stated speed. Think of it this way, if you had an entirely new character and pretty much every speed feat they displayed was in line with Batman, would you assume they were as fast as Batman or would you assume they were as fast as the Flash? I'm not saying certain speed feats don't count, I'm saying they fit within a range of speeds street level characters routinely achieve. Thor's speed is consistently in line with displays by street level characters, even when you go back to really old and high end displays or rely on metaphors like him "moving like lightning". And not only are his speed displays on par with street level characters, even his best ones where he pushes the boundaries of street level, he lacks speed displays of characters like Flash where he's able to consistently operate at a high speed. If street level characters can be shown to consistently move as fast as Thor, what evidence is there that Thor is faster?

I guess I have another question if you want to use the Batman thing seriously. Is Batman faster than Flash? What's your answer to that? To me, if you say "yes", then you reveal your inability to meaningfully discuss this topic, and if you say "no" you support the idea that a high end display here or there doesn't mean a character actually has speed at that level, in which case, that sort of support in defense of Thor (which is really all he has), is rendered meaningless. Maybe you can come up with another option.

Thor isn't nearly as slow as portrayed but he's not a speedster either. He regularly blocks bullets and lasers etc and he can move as fast as lightning not just because his powerset says so but also because he's done so via Adam warlocks battle. Problem is he relies more on skill and brute force and his had powers more then speed. Some say it's the writers while that's true enough it's also because of Thor's warrior code which means he likes the challenge and he thinks it would not be Honorable many of his fights he could have ended much quicker but he didn't. Some say that as well. For me again lightning speed for Thor just because he doesn't always utilize it doesn't mean he can't. And nobody here just because they say so are the authority on the matter all you have is opinion doesn't make it true.

Except that street level characters routinely do the same. That's not opinion, its been pretty well cataloged. If street level characters can be shown to consistently move as fast as Thor, what evidence is there that Thor is faster?

@termiteone4ever: Thor has always been an Asgardian with far more strength without his hammer. Thor only ever had the problem of losing his power without his hammer because it was Odin's form of punishing him for his arrogance. When the punishment was over, Thor and Donald Blake were separated, and Thor's own physical power remained consistent with and without his hammer. Thor does not require his hammer for power, this has never been a plot concept. You are trying to merge the original Thor's need for his hammer with the modern Thor comics, which does not work.

Thor has never had less physical might without his hammer, even his weather manipulation capabilities have been there without it-in recent comics it's not his lack of hammer that impacts his lessened ability to call lightning, it's heavily hinted to be his own degenerative mental state, hence why he nearly went into the Warrior's Madness.

Mjolnir was made for him because it was meant to be an incredibly powerful weapon, not to give him powers.

I mostly agree with this, but the issue is that "power" is not speed or any number of other abilities that the hammer displays independently of Thor. Thor supporters frequently equate Thor's power with everything he does, and that's simply not the case. Yes, Thor is enormously powerful, but that doesn't make him fast. It also doesn't mean that Mjolnir adds nothing to his abilities. The simplest way for you to disprove this point would be to show Thor consistently displaying the ability to fly, teleport, absorb energy, blast focused energy, time travel, use telepathy, create glamours, use telekinesis, sense energy, create force fields, and manipulate matter, all without Mjolnir.

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#6  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@warlockmage:

yes they are they became his standard equipment

Only in DC, wildstorm didn't have him use it as standard equipment.

2.... a supernova is energy

The point of this being?

adam warlock was also blitzed by Nova

Nova isn't slow, but he isn't a nanosecond timer.

do not be a fanboy about this

No one is being a fanboy you cock. i was asking questions.

The Creation Blades don't exist in the DCU as far as I know, and the Majestic there isn't the Majestic in this fight either so it's immaterial anyway. The idea that the Creation Blades are standard gear for Majestic comes from Majestic being the owner of them ever since Nemesis impaled him with them (in the WSU) and tossed him in a volcano. Majestic emerged with them and later used them in a fight with Tao. Whether or not you consider the creation blades his standard equipment though, any of his blades should have more than enough ability to slice through...most people. And that's even without his considerable strength, speed, and skill backing them.

I think the point of the statement about energy is that it's pretty common for damage types to be distinguished in comics. There are countless examples of characters being able to tank obscene amounts of energy directed at them but still be hurt by physical blows which would technically not be as destructive. It's an accepted disregard of science like many powers and events in comics.

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#7 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

I was actually going to respond to this in detail but I thought better of it. If anyone else actually believes your claims (about Majestic or my representation of the character) and it comes up in a future discussion, I'll address it then with them. There are very clear responses to a lot of what you claim, but it's most definitely a waste of time to share them with you.

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#8 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@buckshotwashere said:
@lukespeedblitz said:

Sooooo Hulk is FTL?

Yeah, Hulk, despite no independent or stated FTL feats, is FTL because he can hit fast characters, meanwhile, Superman who has on multiple occasions demonstrated nanosecond reaction and operational speed feats, and displayed speed to such a degree that the rest of the world was frozen to him, is not capable of operating FTL. I think that's how it's going.

Before i answer to your post above, what kind of strawman is this?

Who even said in this thread that Hulk is FTL?

@ghostravage@thedailybagel Did you guys say Hulk was FTL?

It was a joke, come now. Though it was a joke that made its humor in exaggerating positions and putting precise ideas to vague stances. There is a post at the top of the page using examples of Hulk "not having problems" with speed and I wonder what the response is if I were to question if Hulk would have "problems" with the speed presented when Superman moved so fast the world was frozen to him and Flash, or moved so fast things could phase through him, or moved so fast that he was acting in nanoseconds. If he tried to fight Hulk at those speeds, could Hulk keep up or would he have a problem? How long could Hulk keep up for? What would he be able to do? Considering the claimed difference between how fast someone can operate and how fast they can fight, can Flash and Superman have a conversation about Hulk while he's in slow motion or not moving as long as they don't throw a punch? When they throw a punch will their speed suddenly not work?

@atheistknowledge: don't believe I did. Did you say that?? Hmm

Also I didn't get a notification for ghost or jash replying to me in this thread so il quickly reply to both of them at some point as well.

Edit: I don't think anyone has said Clark can't fly at light speed either...

You specify that no one has said Clark can't fly at light speed, but I think I wrote "operating FTL", so that's an interesting distinction to make since it's not what I'm talking about. And we do know people have said he can't operate that fast...even though he's done it multiple times, even specifically saying he "doesn't have the ability to".

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#9 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

@toptom said:

Since Mj’s fighting ability often becomes one of the crucial point in about every he is involved and since we have had an exceptional number of chatter about it, i’ll post his two greatest examples of fighting proves, in order for other people to judge on their own (even if I’ll give my interpretation).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

From Majestic # 5. In this instance Mj is without his powers and he is fighting against two human guards that were possessed by some parademons which have the ability to increase their host’ strength.

- The guards advantages were their greatest physical abilities at the moment.

- Mj didn’t have any powers and he couldn’t rely on his super senses as he usually do BUT he had an invisible suit AND a kherubin blade to level things up.

What Mj did here was killing two amped humans with an high tech blade while they couldn’t see him except from his face, maybe.

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From Majestic # 9. Here we have Mj (with his powers now) fighting against multiple codas warriors. The coda are exceptional warriors, more or less like amazons but in terms of speed, strength, reflexes and overall power they don’t even come near to MJ. What happened here was simply Mj easily defeating numerous foes that weren’t remotely on his level with as sword. It’s like giving a blade to swordsman and to a group of infants and let them fight, at least in my opinion.

Lord Majestros is 10.000 years warrior but these still remains his two greatest feats concerning his fighting ability and they mostly cover his swordsmanship and nothing else.

I can already feel myself regretting this...

In the first situation, Majestic is not fighting people possessed by Parademons. He is fighting people possessed by Daemonites. Entirely different characters from a completely different universe. You say what Majestic did was kill two amped humans while they couldn't see him, but that's a bit disingenuous if not outright false. Majestic was clearly seen when he attacks the first man. Not only does the man comment on it, as does his Daemonite, but he's holding Majestic and pulling back a fist to punch him and Majestic says he didn't even know it. (That's because he's lost his senses and instincts due to the stealth measures he was employing.) Majestic is dealing with a psychic and superhumanly strong enemy that's gotten the drop on him, hit him once, and is about to hit him again. Majestic is the one getting ambushed, not the other way around. Truthfully though, this image is less about Majestic having an extended skillful fight like someone like Batman might, as it is about showing nerve strikes, since people seem to take that as a general marker for skill. That's the reason it gets used. In fact, look back at this thread and IIRC you'll see an example of it. Someone supports a character like Superman's skill with "he can use nerve strikes" and the response is to show Majestic can do the same. Looking at the commonly used metrics for "skill" in comics (length of time practiced, teachers, recognized status among peers, general reputation, nerve strikes, fights without power use), this is an easy way to display something often considered essential to "prove" skill. You should note the purpose of the information being presented if you're going to comment on it.

In the second fight, Majestic is not fighting Coda warriors. He is fighting the Skein. Normally I wouldn't go out for this sort of minor correction, we all make mistakes, but they actually discuss this in the comic over the next couple pages. They go out of their way to make the distinction and then state that these characters are better than the Coda. There are a couple differences noted, but among them is the fact that these aren't just soldiers, they're assassins, as well as that these are pureblood Kherubim, so, since they're fullg grown adults, they've been doing this roughly as long as Majestic has. Beyond that though, you're going out of your way to downplay the display and claim to be doing this so others can judge, so you should get your facts in order. Anyway, I won't deny that Majestic is more powerful than these three (I said as much when I presented these images, and even suggested his dispatching of the first of the 3 be ignored because he overtly uses his powers), but he does not clearly demonstrate any use of his powers against the two he has an extended sword fight with. If we're going to really look at your analogy, its not like giving a blade to a swordsman and to a group of infants and letting them fight (good thing you specified that this was your opinion). It's more one master swordsman fighting 3 other master swordsmen, all of whom have thousands of years under their belts, but the first is stronger and faster so he holds back to fight at their physical level in order to test his pure skill. There are not many ways Majestic can be shown having a perfectly even fight given the limited number of characters in his universe that can match him both physically and in skill, but this is about as close as it gets and he shows himself to be skillful.

I understand the implication about Majestic "only" having a relatively small number displays I'd call skill displays. I disagree with it, but I get why it's a sticking point. Personally, comparing his number of displays to his appearances (less than 200 for those that don't know), I think his skill is a more central part of his character than someone like Superman or Thor, who maybe have a few more nice displayss, but have had many more decades to build them up. I'm not sure how "mostly covering his swordsmanship" is a negative though. Majestic almost always has a sword on him, whether in his hand or as part of his gear, so displays of his sword skills are a pretty good thing to show. In any case, there's the implication that sword displays are somehow insufficient. Thankfully Majestic has some others, the problem is, as I've said before, skill can sometimes be hard to show. People look for different things or simply see different things. I for example don't see much skill in Superman's display against Kobra even though its intended and written to be a skill display (the art really just lets the whole thing down). Or maybe more generally, when is a punch a skilled punch and when is it the attack of an unskilled brawler? Skill is subjective (which is why we have some of the metrics I mentioned before). I'm not going to get into this in much detail because on top of skill being so hard to show or at least agree on, I don't believe I'm talking to someone discussing this in good faith. So let me quickly mention a couple other things. As I linked in my post earlier, there are other displays support Majestic's skill, particularly in combat with multiple enemies, even including him taking on hundreds of opponents with his fingertips. While yes, he's still more powerful than them by a long shot, I can't look at someone fighting enemies with their fingertips and not think skill is what the artist is intending to communicate (especially when it comes right after narration talking about his mind suddenly being taken over by his combat conditioning). Majestic's fight with the plenary is also nice in that he takes on 6 enemies who aren't portrayed as significantly weaker than him or slower than he's moving in the fight and he's only tagged twice, and by tagged I mean two people put a hand on his face but don't actually land hits. He then takes on their leader and beats him in 4 strikes and never gets hit even though his opponent throws punches. When he fights Hadrian (powered by the Void, who has previously granted her host flash level speed among other powers), theres a portion of their fight where Majestic dodges multiple punches in a row (staying in one place, just moving his head around the fists) while trying to talk to his former friend who is attacking him, before eventually a punch lands. I'd go on but I doubt there's any real point. Are these things 'show more skill' than what's already been seen? I think that's a hard thing to say. I think in general they paint a picture of a character who knows how to fight in a skillful way and also enjoys it, not just taking every punch that's thrown because he can and falling back on skill in emergencies or to make a point. Just look at the smile on Majestic's face when he blocks a sword strike from behind his back at the end of his fight with the Skein. He loves fighting the way Iron Fist loves fighting, not the way Ares, Thor, or Superman do.

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#10 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Sooooo Hulk is FTL?

Yeah, Hulk, despite no independent or stated FTL feats, is FTL because he can hit fast characters, meanwhile, Superman who has on multiple occasions demonstrated nanosecond reaction and operational speed feats, and displayed speed to such a degree that the rest of the world was frozen to him, is not capable of operating FTL. I think that's how it's going.