BoutaTakeAnL

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BoutaTakeAnL

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@mage101 said:
@boutatakeanl said:
@mage101 said:
@boutatakeanl said:

Fernus and Despero combined should be able to defeat the telepaths. Other than that, they've got a plethora of powers to get rid of everyone else here.

They won't be able to defeat the combined TP of Jean, Cerebro xavier, emma, and exodus, the first three will be too much.

I might be overrating the duo's TP, but I do think they're powerful enough that they can still multitask defending the Krakoan's TP while using their physicals and other powers to defeat the team.

That's not really how they act though, those two love to attack not defend.

Sure, I just meant that their telepathic offense would be sufficient to stave the Krakoan offense.

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BoutaTakeAnL

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@geekryan said:

@boutatakeanl: I didn’t mean that in any rude way, so I’m sorry if you took it like that.

I just meant that you admitted you aren’t as knowledgeable, and yet you seem very certain about the outcome of the fight. That seems kinda odd to me. Daily chimed in when I asked you a question, which is fine, but now you won’t answer because he apparently said everything you would have said, despite not having his knowledge on the matter.

You have always been very reasonable and more than willing to admit you were wrong and/or change your opinion when presented with evidence, which I really respect. All this to say, I have hope that you could see reason, whereas Daily and especially Prof are pretty set in their opinions on the matter, so it’s kinda pointless in that regard.

- Not at all. I hope my response didn't come off as an aggressive defense or anything. I just thought I needed to clarify that.

- Valid. It's a weird situation, ngl. I do feel pretty comfortable with Xemnu and his feats. I do believe, given what I've seen, his raw power outclasses basically every Earth telepath, and I believe the disparity to be pretty big. The scaling just makes sense to me. Hulk's psychic defenses > Jean, Xavier, Emma, etc...'s TP. Xemnu's TP >= Hulk's psychic defenses. I do stand quite firmly on that logic, and maybe I'm giving it too much credit.

On the other hand, I leave the debating to Bagel because he's vying for the team that I am, and I'm nowhere near as capable as he, PR, etc... are. When Koays brought up the supposed fact that Xemnu's feat was against "pre-sorcerer supreme Strange", I was like "damn... that sucks. That feat isn't really that good then". I kinda just accepted it at that point. Then PR claims that Strange was indeed Sorcerer Supreme at that point. I don't be knowing all that. No shot I could have contested that point, yet PR was able to. Similarly, when you brought up that there was a difference between telepathy and hypnotism (enough of a difference to consider), I thought I was cooked. But then Bagel said it was "semantics". Again... no way I would have been able to contest that. I would have just folded. So basically, I'm comfortable just letting him do his thing because I simply lack the knowledge for properly countering. Whenever Bagel or PR countered in their posts, those counters made perfect sense. That's what I meant by, Bagel specifically, covering everything I "would have". I meant to say he covered everything I would have wanted to if I actually knew 0_0 . Same reason I'm high-key ducking Mage. He brings solid feats to the table and I can't do anything but fold as a character I like doesn't actually win the fight (from what I know). In my defense though he be passive aggressive often :( . Yet every time I see PR debate, he catches the context that I totally missed. Because of how frequently I've seen PR do that, I kinda get sceptical of the feats I see, even if they're more than likely valid. So yeah, I'm totally just letting the actual heavyweights fight while I look on from the corner of the Brick team. You throw me in the ring and I'm getting destroyed.

I appreciate that a ton! I respect you for the same reasons + you actually know a bunch. Being honest again, I totally could just be blinded by character bias. I like Xemnu a ton. I like Hulk a ton. Maybe I want them to be in tiers they might not be. PR and Bagel could be wrong. I very well could be wrong. But, being as objective as I can, I do see the logic in Xemnu being a hell of a fight for Jean. I do see the logic of him multitasking a TP fight with her while animating objects around him and taking down some of the other ladies as well. So maybe I'm being a little too firm on my stance, but I genuinely see the reasoning in it. Shoot, honestly I just wanna keep it that way instead of risking being proven wrong XD, but, of course, I'll accept reasoning if it contradicts what I know/goes against the guys I like. I know PR can be a pain to debate (respectfully to him). He is pretty dead set on his stances, and I don't agree with a fair chunk of his takes. Again, that might just be character bias again. Maybe I don't want to see guys like Mysterio and Dr. Octopus working through 6 rounds of Krakoan dudes, but I could be wrong. I will, however, say I haven't felt the same with Bagel, that I've felt with Prof. Bagel seems very objective and I thoroughly agree with his responses, most likely cause I haven't experienced having an opposing opinion to him and him being very dead set on it. Because of that, I'm fine with him debating this while I sit it out. Maybe I see more logic in PR and Bagel's responses because they're for the team that I like, so I want to see that logic more. I'd certainly hope not, but I did skim some Koays parts that I thought might be tight for me to defend against. In my defense, it took me over an hour to catch up on this gem of a thread just barely skimming 0_0 so that's a thing. Rant over. I'll try my best to be objective. If I feel, between you and Bagel or Koays and PR, etc..., that you made better points and your logic was better, I will definitely change my opinion, despite the pill being hard to swallow. And I'll consciously be objective about it.

TL;DR - I'm un poco sus 0_o and Grammarly going off with the underlining >:(

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BoutaTakeAnL

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Sorry I couldn't sneak that vote in, but 100% congratulations to Higor and Chime for a fantastic debate. A very civil one as well

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@mage101 said:
@boutatakeanl said:

Fernus and Despero combined should be able to defeat the telepaths. Other than that, they've got a plethora of powers to get rid of everyone else here.

They won't be able to defeat the combined TP of Jean, Cerebro xavier, emma, and exodus, the first three will be too much.

I might be overrating the duo's TP, but I do think they're powerful enough that they can still multitask defending the Krakoan's TP while using their physicals and other powers to defeat the team.

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@mage101 said:
@boutatakeanl said:
@mage101 said:

@boutatakeanl:

I appreciate the response, however my responses would only be regurgitating the points that Professor Respect and DailyBagel have already made, except they did a way better job of making those points.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that their points isn't a counter to what I wrote which really hasn't been brought up in this debate, especially the ones involving you.

Bagel already brought up/countered the skill point in his response to Geek. The draining point was also discussed in-depth by PR and Koays.

I'm finding it difficult to find the skill part and i still think that rogue will be able to drain Juggy.

It's fine if you believe that, for sure. I, personally, found PR's arguments on that front more compelling. And again, based off the points Bagel made, I don't think the disparity is enough for her to win off-rip.

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@mage101 said:

@boutatakeanl:

I appreciate the response, however my responses would only be regurgitating the points that Professor Respect and DailyBagel have already made, except they did a way better job of making those points.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that their points isn't a counter to what I wrote which really hasn't been brought up in this debate, especially the ones involving you.

Bagel already brought up/countered the skill point in his response to Geek. The draining point was also discussed in-depth by PR and Koays.

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BoutaTakeAnL

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@mage101 said:

@boutatakeanl:

I never said he had feats that suggest he's too much for Jean to handle. There's no need to distinguish between offense feats and general TP feats. Given Xemnu has proven to be telepathically superior to Savage Hulk's psychic resistances, the very same resistances Jean and Xavier struggle to get through, he's automatically a very good opponent for Jean. Multiple planetary feats. Explicitly mentioned that he controlled and altered the minds of the X-men. Very powerful and respectable psi-bolts. Psychically superior to Cho Hulk and Devil Hulk. Whatever way you wanna cut it, Jean is not beating Xemnu before Hulk and Colossus deal with the others. It's practically a stalemate for a while, and his physicals + TK put him above Jean IMO. He could certainly still multitask and damage other ladies on the team.

Just to correct you on something.

Psychic fights do not happen the way you are assuming here, not at all. Xemnu bypassing savage hulk defenses [he has also struggled with it too] doesn't mean that he'll have a long fight with jean for the fact that you need these three things to be able to proficient in psychic battles:

  • Telepathic Skills
  • Solid psychic defenses
  • Experience in psy battles.

And i don't think Xemnu is proficient when it comes to these, his skill in TP isn't really shown or maybe writers ignore it, his psychic defenses haven't been pressed on because he doesn't hang around telepath so he doesn't have room to shine in that area and the same thing goes with experience, in fact he resorted to physically attack Moondragon instead of winning their psychic battle, proving that his skill in psychic battles aren't really there.

You keep using the Hulk as a measuring stick but that isn't necessary because bypassing defenses isn't the same as being proficient in psychic battles or having good defenses. Xemnu has also struggled with the hulk's defenses and telepaths have bypassed the hulk's defenses before but I'll say that he is the best when it comes to bypassing the hulk's defenses but that is a power feat not skill and power doesn't really help especially here where we have Jean who is superior in terms of Raw power. The best example of this is teen jean who has feats of actually bypassing psychic shields placed by Xavier but gets bullied by the 3 in 1 cuckoo's who weren't even trying because of skill, i can give more example for you if you want.

You'll have to show Xemu's skill and experience in psy battles to actually suggest that it'll be a stalemate.

I don't see why Rogue doesn't handle the Juggernaut [draining] with Sue+ wanda holding back the hulk and later get help from Rogue with juggernaut's powers and Rogue can also drain Xemnu [ Who has probably been beaten by jean] then wanda amping all their abilities as they take down the hulk quite easily.

I appreciate the response, however my responses would only be regurgitating the points that Professor Respect and DailyBagel have already made, except they did a way better job of making those points.

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#8  Edited By BoutaTakeAnL
@geekryan said:
@boutatakeanl said:
@geekryan said:

@boutatakeanl: : I will address both of your posts (as they absolutely do need to be addressed), but give me a day or two since I'm quite busy.

Sorry, I didn't see the exchanges between you and Bagel. You can just keep it going with him, given he's vastly more knowledgeable than I am on this, and given his counters were along the lines of what I was thinking. I'll just spectate :D

If you aren't as knowledgeable on Xemnu/Jean, why are you so certain about Xemnu winning?

I don't need to be as knowledgeable as you, Bagel, Koays, etc... in order to form an opinion for a fight like this. All I said was that compared to him, I know very little, so this conversation would be moot. I said that Jean would beat Xemnu 8-9/10 times if it was purely a TP fight. The point I was firm on was that Xemnu basically takes Jean off the board, and she takes him off the board. I feel, to me, that I know "enough" to conclude that. His feats suggest he can multitask a psychic fight with Jean while using TK and physicals elsewhere. The difference is that Jean's powers would be pretty useless against Hulk and this version of Juggernaut, whereas Xemnu can definitely harm multiple others on the ladies side with his TK and physicals.

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@cosmoman: Got a lil' busy. Will get back to you soon. Thanks for the reply!

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I don't know anything about Cell, but if he's not Star level consistently, he's done for. Plutonian curbstomps everyone else at once. Violater might have some scaling or feats to contend, but I don't think it's consistent enough.