Boogeymonster

I do not know why you are so angry about a debate regarding fictional characters, and I apologize if I hurt your feelings because ...

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#1  Edited By Boogeymonster

@azureus said:

@iamduck:

Shhhh. This is the same guy who told me a billionth of a second doesn't denote to a fraction of a second. The post was hilarious.

Straw man on your part.

A nanosecond is specifically referring to a billionth of second. It it is not referring to any fraction of a second. It referring to a specific fraction of a second. You're treating it as if it's the exact same as saying it's a microsecond (which is specifically a millionth of a second), or millisecond (which is specifically a thousandth of a second). That any fraction of second is the exact same as any other fraction of second. Not only is that dishonest it is outright ignoring the narrative, and what is stated in order to fit things into your head-canon. It even specifies that they're performing superhuman feats in these instances.

These are the not the same thing. You would know that if you were not an idiot.

@azureus:

Lol, I fail to see what supports your stance when you just copy and paste pieces of the novel that "fit" your narrative. You don't bother to consider this could very well be an instance where hyperbole is used to express extremely short periods of time.

That's exactly my point, and the thing is it's giving us the exact time-frame. The examples you provided did not. This to the point where some instances specify exactly how many nanoseconds are passing.

They're not. They're supported by feats. Acknowledged down to the kilometer per second. Speed of light is used literally, along with fractions of light-speed.

Literally the exact same shit you quoted happens in other novels involving peak human characters, I don't see how this supports your stance.

The very example you used does not denote a single nanosecond, and does not reference the speed of light. Any fractions of the speed of light. The speed of light down to the exact kilometer per second. It doesn't consistently happen, and has nothing to back up your interpretation of it.

The f*ck?

The fact you don't even know what that means adds to this.

No they aren't. As I said earlier, you are unable to recognize literary devices.

I have seen six year old children with better reading comprehension than you have. You are the one who is failing to understand what is being said here.

Since when does detail alone decide the validity of a statement?

Since the beginning of literature. Now let me give you two examples:

"I just used a laser beam. The speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second."

This is not fucking hyperbole.

"That man moved like the wind, and struck like lightning."

That is fucking hyperbole.

You're funny.

Not as funny as your inability to recognize literary devices.

The irony is palpable by the way. You claim this of me but do it yourself.

As will the examples I will provide. Novels don't have images, hence the need for them to be even more descriptive.

Which is there to give us a clear image, and idea of what is actually even happening since we can't see anything to begin with.

Hyperbole uses literal terms for exaggeration and emphasis. That's the point.

No, hyperbole does not use these terms literally. The whole point of hyperbole is that it's purple prose that has no real meaning.

You are a broken record. (Hyperbole right here) Detail alone doesn't confirm the validity of a statement, exact speeds and timeframes will be used, but that won't keep it from being hyperbole.

It most certainly does help it from being hyperbole as it does not note the exact type of ton. Is it a short ton, or a metric ton? Is there anything suggesting that what he put inside his backpack would actually weight that much? Does it note the exact weight, or amount of pounds.

Hint: The answer is a resounding "no."

You have the specific subject and mass here, in school if a 6 yo student had walked up to you and said these words, would you truly believe he's a 1 tonner?

No, we don't. As I asked before it is a short ton, or a metric ton? Is there anything suggesting what was put in this backpack was actually this heavy? My point exactly you can't tell the difference between what is literal, or what is hyperbole.

No prose here, plenty of detail. I assume you mean to tell me that peak humans and a regular vehicle can make that maneuver nanoseconds from impact now, eh?

Certainly, as we don't know how many seconds there are. As a plural being used there to denote many nanoseconds. It could be half a billion nanoseconds, or half a second for all we know.

I guess...but wasn't that what the narration was trying to say?

Most certainly not in the example you provided. As it is unspecific regarding how many nanoseconds there are by using a plural.

I fail to understand how.

I fail to understand how you're able to function in society.

In a novel, loosely speaking, yes it does. Read a goddamn book.

No, it doesn't an instance can mean anything. It does not specifically mean a nanosecond.

No, a billionth of a second denotes to a fraction of a second. A billionth is a fraction...

No, this is a broad generalization on your part. This is like saying all fractions are the same thing.

1/4 is not the same as 1/10 for example.

As it also does to a fraction of a second, mind you, because it is a fraction of a second, the point stands.

No, it doesn't because a fraction of a second does not specify the exact fraction of a second. It is broad a statement with an unclear meaning on how much of a fraction of second there is.

So what? How does that damage my argument?

You have to prove they're the same exact thing. They're not. No one fraction is the same as another. This is basic math.

Lul, I guess your efforts here were wasted then. According to you, early series Naruto was FTL, which makes the current one MFTL++ and this Sasuke rivals the current Naruto, so I guess he stomps.

There is literally only one example of light-speed in Naruto, and it comes from a vague data-book entry. In regards to the demonic ice mirrors. Which is contradicted by the fact we never see this in the series, or the narrative. Whereas I provided eight examples of this, and several more of a lesser scale.

Purple prose is something else entirely...I'm saying it's hyperbole, which it easily is.

No, it isn't. Hyperbole is a form of purple prose, and the fact you don't know hyperbole is a type of purple prose makes me wonder if you're still in High School. This to the point they are often grouped together, and brought up whenever the other is mentioned. As they have certain similarities. Namely, the use of language to be extravagant and not literal.

Well I can't prove because the instance itself isn't an example of a prose. I never even said it was. Nor does it being highly descriptive change anything, it's a novel for young adults for goodness sake. Literally every novel has to be descriptive, it's a fucking novel for goodness sake.

You do know prose is any sort of writing? Do not confuse it, and purple prose. Which is a specific type of prose. I am not the one who has to educate you on these things. It is becoming incredibly annoying. As I already noted it being highly descriptive does matter. As that's the difference between hyperbole, and being literal. In regards to hyperbole it can be taken many different ways. In regards to being literal, and highly specific it cannot.

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@reikai said:


Insert a bunch of word vomit, and failure to counter any evidence provided.

Good to know you haven't read any of my posts, and did not bother to look at any of them. Since you're repeating the same rhetoric I have already debunked several times before. I will ask you again to actually address half the things I have.

@reikai:

And you fail to understand the vast difference and standards it holds.

No, I am not. You are failing to realize that Ainz Ooal Gown's utterly garbage reality slash pales in comparison to something that can literally destroy worlds.

Especially since the Wormhole acts in a DoT fashion. Which makes it far less useful in actual combat.

No, it doesn't even before mastering it Darth Sidious could use it in such a precise way that he can use it teleport himself light-years away without causing any collateral damage to his surroundings.

[Reality Slash] may be single-target in nature, however the size of the target is all but irrelevant to its use.

No, it really is relevant as what you showed me did not show me reality slash destroying an entire space fleet or ravaging an entire world. It is garbage by comparison, the tear is reality is laughably tiny, and it can't do anything that matches up.

The wormhole is able to encompass kilometer sized ships. Neat.

The tear in the space-time continuum that rips open holes into hyperspace which is another dimension entirely, and can encompass entire worlds.

Ainz can transform and alter an area with a more than 200mi radius.

Not impressive at all. Darth Plagueis can nearly cause an apocalyptic event on Naboo just by arriving on the planet, and he didn't have to do anything. He is beneath Darth Sidious at this point, and Darth Sidious learned everything from him.

And that was just as a test. Effectively displaying the range he can encompass being much larger than that of the Force Wormhole.

No, it really isn't. The range a force storm can stretch across an entire world, and a force storm itself can be comparable in size to one.

And Ainz can cast {Silent} Spells with just thought as well and activate instantly. Like his Time Stop.

Not instantly unless you now want to claim Ainz Ooal Gown has infinite speed with no evidence to back it up. As I already noted there is nothing stopping Darth Sidious from destroying Ainz Ooal Gown before then. He faster than characters who are faster than characters who as fast as Ainz Ooal Gown. It would take all but a nanosecond for Darth Sidious to pulverize him into dust.

{Silent} spells are just spells he can cast without verbalizing them or incanting them. Meaning he casts them instantly.

Which is not helping against Darth Sidious when he has clairvoyance and precognition. He is going to know about them before he even casts them, and how he should counter them.

Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine foresees that Plagueis would arrive at an event on Chandrila and divulges that he has frequent premonitions.

The planet Chandrila sponsored a monthlong retreat for members of the Legislative Youth Program. Once a year young beings from a host of worlds arrived to participate in mock Senate trials in and around Hanna City and to tour Chandrila’s vast agricultural projects, wilderness areas, coral reefs, and garden parks. It was in Gladean Park—a game reserve outside coastal Hanna—that Plagueis paid young Palpatine an unannounced visit. But it was Plagueis who was surprised.

“I knew you would come, Magister,” Palpatine said when Plagueis and 11-4D turned up at one of the game reserve’s viewing blinds.

“How did you know?”

“I knew, that’s all.”

“And just how often are your premonitions correct?”

“Almost always.”

“Curious,” 11-4D remarked while Palpatine was hurrying away to excuse himself from the company of two friends.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine senses Plagueis' powers.

Palpatine’s lip curled in anger and menace. “Is this the wisdom you offer—the tenets of some arcane cult?”

“The test of its value is whether you can live by it, Palpatine.”

“If I had wanted that I would have forced my parents years ago to surrender me to the Jedi Order instead of transferring me from school to private school.”

Plagueis planted his hands on his hips and laughed without mirth. “And of what possible use do you think a person of your nature would be to the Jedi Order? You’re heartless, ambitious, arrogant, insidious, and without shame or empathy. More, you’re a murderer.” He held Palpatine’s hooded gaze and watched the youth’s hands clench in fists of rage. “Careful, boy,” he said after a moment. “You are not the only being in this plush stateroom with the power to kill.”

Palpatine’s eyes opened wide and he took a step back. “I can sense it...”

Plagueis grew deliberately haughty. “What you sense is a fraction of what I can bring to bear.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He sees through the eyes of a beast while hunting.

Blended into the herd, the animal Sidious had fixed his sight on would have been indistinguishable to normal beings. But Sidious had the animal in his mind and was now looking through its eyes, one with it.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He perceives beings around him as blurs of energy.

Pax Teem was about to speak when a Gran messenger intruded on the privacy canopy.

“Senator Kim, we are in receipt of an urgent communiqué from Naboo.”

While Kim was excusing himself, Palpatine dropped into the Force. Conversation at the table grew faint, and the physical forms of Pax Teem and the others became indistinct—more like blurs of lambent energy.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Palpatine feels the presence of a Nightsister, is guided toward her location, and senses dark energies emanating from her.

Some combination of the strictures—or perhaps recognition on Plagueis’s part for his apprentice’s unabated craving to visit Sith worlds—had landed Palpatine on scenic Dathomir. Sparsely populated and largely unexplored, Dathomir wasn’t Korriban or Ziost, but it was powerful in the Force, in part because of its fecundity, but mainly due to the presence of groups of female adepts who practiced dark side magicks.

He was meandering without clear purpose through one of Blue Desert City’s dustier quarters, far from the city center, when became aware of a faint pulse of Force energy, the origin of which was indistinct but close at hand.

Calling more deeply on the Force, he allowed himself to be drawn toward the mysterious source, as if he were a starship surrendering to the embrace of a tractor beam. A tortuous series of turns delivered him into a market area brimming with knockoff goods, ersatz jewelry, and bits and pieces of junk that had found its way to Dathomir from who knew where, and ultimately to a small square amid the hustle and bustle, on one corner of which stood a human female, whose symmetrically blemished face was the color of burnished durasteel, and whose flamboyant clothing identified her as a visitor to the city, likely from some remote village on the planet’s far side. The hood of her crimson robe was raised, and from one shoulder hung a soft bag the size of a small suitcase.

Palpatine moved to the square’s diagonal corner to observe her. She was eyeing individuals in the passing crowd, not as if searching for someone in particular, but with a gaze more in keeping with target acquisition. She didn’t strike Palpatine as a thief or pickpocket, though she did exude a dark energy informed by equal measures of urgency and deceit.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

As his power grows, Palpatine more frequently sees beings through his Force perception and detects details he was oblivious to before.

The hood of his stylish robe raised against a chill wind, Palpatine hurried through the streets of Theed. The sudden turn in the weather abetted his desire to avoid making eye contact with strangers or, worse, encountering anyone he knew. As he grew stronger in the dark side, the profane world became a stranger and stranger place, swept by currents he’d had no previous awareness of and populated by vaguely outlined life-forms he saw as magnitudes of the Force.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

While talking with Plagueis, Dooku, and Sifo-Dyas, Palpatine senses that an onlooker is closely watching him.

Palpatine sensed scrutiny from someone outside the circle the ten of them had formed. Just short of the Senate Building's Great Door, Pax Teem had stopped and was gazing at Palpatine, his eyestalks extended. And Palpatine could hardly blame him, since even he had been caught off guard by Plagueis's eagerness to acknowledge him in public.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

His attention is drawn to an upper window where Sun Guards enter the building.

No sooner did the holoimage dissolve than two of the security men began to advance on him. Sidious readied himself for action. A Force blow to send them reeling back toward the holoprojector, then a leap, arms extended, hands curled into claws, one for each windpipe, which he would tear from their throats—

The Force intruded, drawing his attention to the windows in the upper walls.

At once, the sound of repeating blasters and pained cries echoed from adjacent rooms; then a nerve-jangling shattering of glass as Sun Guards crashed through the high windows and began to rappel to the filthy floor, firing as they slid down on their microfilament lines, catching the Santhe men and the Rodian with so many bolts that their bodies were left quartered by the volleys.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Palpatine senses Sate Pestage outside his door and feels the dark side being unleashed at an attack on Hego Damask.

He was standing in the center of the room when he sensed someone in the corridor outside. Fists pummeled the door; then it slid to one side and Sate Pestage burst into the room. Seeing Palpatine, he came to a sudden stop, and the panicked look he wore on entering transformed to one of visible relief.

“I’ve been trying to reach you,” he nearly screamed, running a hand over his forehead.

Palpatine regarded him quizzically. “I was occupied. What has happened?”

Pestage sank into a chair and looked up at him. “Are you sure you want to know?” He paused, then said, “In the interest of separating what I do from what you do—”

Palpatine’s eyes blazed. “Stop wasting my time and come to the point.”

Pestage gritted his teeth. “The Maladian commander I did business with during the Kim affair.”

“What of him?”

“He contacted me—two, maybe three hours ago. He said that he felt humiliated because of the manner in which the Kim contract had been implemented, and wanted to make it up to me. He said he’d just received word that a Maladian faction had accepted a contract to carry out a major hit on Coruscant, involving someone closely affiliated with Damask Holdings.” Pestage kept his eyes on Palpatine. “I feared it might be you.”

Palpatine swung back to the window to think. Had the Santhe guards planned to turn him over to the Maladians following the holocommunication with Pax Teem?

He turned to Pestage. “Who took out the contract?

“Members of the Gran Protectorate.”

“It fits,” Palpatine said, more to himself.

“What fits?”

“Where are these Gran now?”

“As soon as I heard from the Maladian, I asked Kinman to keep an eye on them. They’re holed up in the Malastare ambassador’s residence.”

Palpatine blinked. “Here? On Coruscant?”

“Of course, here.”

“It’s not possible that they’re offworld?”

“No, they’re downside.”

Palpatine paced away from Pestage. He opened himself fully to the Force, and was left staggered by an inrush of overwhelming malevolence. He planted his left hand on the desk for support and managed a stuttering inhale. Somewhere close by, the dark side was unspooling.

“Palpatine!” Pestage said from behind him.

“Hego Damask,” Palpatine said, without turning around.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

While traveling to Aborah, Sidious has a vision of Aborah and perceives it inordinately saturated in the dark side.

A standard month after the events on Coruscant, Plagueis summoned Sidious to Muunilinst. Sidious had visited the High Port skyhook but had never been invited downside, and now he found himself soaring over one of the planet’s unspoiled blue oceans in a stylish airspeeder piloted by two Sun Guards. As the speeder approached Aborah, he settled deeply into the Force and was rewarded with a vision of the mountain island as a transcendent vortex of dark energy unlike anything he had ever experienced. It was something he would have expected to encounter only on Korriban or some other Sith world.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He senses lifeforms which are used in Plagueis' experiments in locked cells.

Sidious was still trying to make sense of the droid’s statements when they entered a long corridor lined with windowless cells. Through the Force he could sense life-forms behind each locked door.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He knows that Maul is still upset about a snake bite.

"I know you're still upset about the snake that bit you," Sidious said, continuing around the watery orb until he had a clear view of Maul. "I know everything about you, Maul. Everything."

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Sidious is aware of a drawing made on the wall of Maul's room.

Maul's steps did not falter as he continued following the droid, but his mind was suddenly racing. He wondered what consequences he might suffer because of the drawing. He said, "Did Master Sidious see the drawing?"

"I don't know. I erased it right after you fell asleep."

"Then how would he even know about the drawing...unless you told him?"

"I didn't have to tell him," TD-D9 said. "You should know by now, child...Sidious knows everything."

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Sidious sees Plagueis' form in the Force.

Just arrived on the Hunters’ Moon, Sidious studied Plagueis as the Sith Lord and his droid, 11-4D, viewed a holorecording of a black-robed Zabrak assassin making short work of combat automata in his home on Coruscant, some hovering, some advancing on two legs, others on treads, and all firing blasters.

Twenty years had added a slight stoop to the Muun’s posture and veins that stood out under his thinning white skin. He wore a dark green utility suit that hugged his delicate frame, a green cloak that fell from his bony shoulders to the fort’s stone floor, and a headpiece that hewed to his large cranium. A triangular breath mask covered his ruined, prognathus lower jaw, his mouth, part of his long neck, and what remained of the craggy nose he’d had before the surprise attack in the Fobosi. A device of his own invention, the alloy mask featured two vertical slits and a pair of thin, stiff conduits that linked it to a transpirator affixed to his upper chest, beneath an armored torso harness. He had learned to ingest and imbibe through feeding tubes, and through his nose.

Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He senses the position and flight path of the Scimitar even after the cloaking devices render it invisible.

Maul bowed his head and hurried up the rear boarding ramp into the cockpit module. Sidious lingered to watch the ship rise and edge out of the hangar, becoming invisible as it flew over The Works. Through the dark side, he continued to track the Scimitar as it angled north toward the Jedi Temple rather than south, and away from the Senate District.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Sidious is capable of interpreting the currents of the Force to ascertain information and does so to learn that Nute Gunray had lied.

Sidious stood motionless and silent on the transmission grid, his fingers steepled, his mind meditating on the eddies and currents of the Force. Those of lesser sensitivity were oblivious to it, but to him it was like an omnipresent mist, invisible but nonetheless tangible, that swirled and drifted constantly about him. No words, no descriptions could begin to convey what it was like; the only way to understand it was to experience it. He had learned over long years of study and meditation how to interpret each and every vagary of its restless flow, no matter how slight. Even without that ability, however, he would have known that Nute Gunray was lying about Hath Monchar's whereabouts.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

He senses a communication sent to him before it arrives and ascertains that Maul is telling the truth.

Darth Sidious could feel a slight disturbance in the Force before his scrambled comlink chimed, and knew by this that his apprentice was about to contact him. He stepped to the holoprojector and activated the grid. Privacy failsafes glowed green before he spoke.

"My apprentice. Your mission is complete." It was a statement, not a question. Sidious knew Darth Maul would not call to report failure, and there were no untoward signs in the energies that surrounded his image.

"Yes, my master. The Jedi Padawan died in combat. She fought well, for a neophyte. An explosion generated from our battle destroyed Lorn Pavan and his droid." Darth Sidious nodded. He could feel the truth of the statement even at this distance. This was excellent news.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

He stretches out with the Force and is guided by the dark side to act on his opportunity to kill Plagueis.

A few meters distant, Sidious came to a halt, gazing at Plagueis for a long moment, as though making up his mind about something. Then, blowing out his breath, he set his own glass down and reached for the cloak he had draped over a chair. Swirling it around himself, he started for the door, only to stop shortly before he reached it. Turning and stretching out with the Force, he glanced around the room, as one might to fix a memory in the mind. Briefly his gaze fell on the droid, its glowing photoreceptors whirring to regard him in evident curiosity.

A look of sinister purpose contorted Sidious’s face.

Again, his eyes darted around the room, and the dark side whispered:

Your election assured, the Sun Guards absent, Plagueis unsuspecting and asleep...

And he moved in a blur.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Sidious views Plaguies through the Force and notices his gathering midi-chlorians.

Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis."

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He feels a disturbance in the Force and then stretches his perception to view distant stars.

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Sidious peers into the past to uncover information about Darth Plagueis and Tenebrous.

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

He raised his gaze to the ecliptic. The answers were out there, coded in light, speeding through space and time. Liquid fire coursing through him, visions of past and future riffling through his mind, he opened himself to the reconfigured galaxy, as if in an effort to peel away the decades...

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

He feels a sense of loss upon Maul's defeat.

Sidious moved back into the room to take a closer look at Plagueis. Then, after a long moment, he returned to the window and pulled the drapes aside.

His spirit soared, but briefly.

Something was shading his sense of triumph: a vague awareness of a power greater than himself. Was it Plagueis reaching out from the far side of death to vex him? Or was the feeling a mere consequence of apotheosis?

Outside, the summits of the tallest buildings were gilded by the first rays of daylight.

With the Battle of Naboo concluded—lost, in his estimation—Palpatine had no time to bask in adulation or celebrate his win. His first order of business, indeed his first official duty, was to travel to his homeworld to congratulate Queen Amidala and her new allies, the Gungans, on their surprise victory.

It wasn’t until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul’s defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Sidious foresees every maneuver Maul and Savage make prior to its use.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Sidious notes a detail in a conversation with Darth Tyranus without being told.

Even via hologram, the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin and knotted with tension. "These are the envoys from Troxar," his Master said. How could he know? Dooku didn't ask. Darth Sidious knew. He always knew.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Palpatine can detect currents in events and determine possibilities from them.

Once again, Darth Sidious had divined the actions they would take well in advance of their own deciding. The talent had less to do with being able to peer into the future, than with having access to streams of possibilities. Sidious wasn't unerring. He could be surprised or taken off his guard—as at Geonosis, as in the case of Gunray's mechno-chair—but not for long. His mastery of the dark side of the Force endowed him with the power to decipher the currents that comprised the future, and to comprehend that while those currents were manifold, they were not boundless. Such mastery was one of the skills that distinguished Sidious from Yoda, who believed the future was so much in motion it could not be read with any clarity—especially during times when the dark side was on the ascendant. But how could Yoda be expected to see the whole picture with one eye closed? Deliberately closed.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

Sidious can perceive events wherever darkness exists and feels Anakin's turmoil and the approach of Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

So what is more useful? Creating a wormhole that you can't fully control and could potentially kill you when using it?

Another lie on your part. Darth Sidious has complete control over his force storms by the time of Dark Empire, and only lost control of one due to Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa disrupting it.

Or being able to Stop Time and straight up killing your opponent before even an attosecond can pass.

What's more impressive being able to destroy both your opponent, and the entire planet he is on with but a thought. Get me a single instance of Ainz Ooal Gown acting within the time-frame of an attosecond.

The burden of proof lies on you.

And Ainz can create anti-teleportation fields, so all aspects of his wormhole usage have been nullified.

Proof that these anti-teleportation fields are powerful enough to nullify disruptions in space, and time the size of planets? I know there isn't any but it will be amusing to see how you rationalize this in your diseased mind.

There is absolutely no need since you fail to grasp what Immunity means.

No, it is you who continues to fail to grasp the difference between evidence and a baseless claim. An immunity is a resistance to something, and you yourself made clear they are not perfect. Therefore they are not immunities to begin with.

You don't stop being immune to something just because the voltage increases. It's still the same element.

You most certainly do. As even rubber melts if you apply too much of a high voltage to it. There is a limit to how much energy something can take. There is never a point where there is no limit, in reality, or in any fictional medium. There are claims of such but they are unfounded.

And the series already explains that of the very few means to bypass immunity requires Godly-tier, nigh-impossible to acquire special classes, like Ainz's [Eclipse] class, or World-Class items which're reality altering/breaking objects of which only 200 exist and Ainz's guild possessed 11 of them. One of which Ainz keeps on his own person as a counter-measure against other WCI's.

Which have seen the capabilities of, and World Class Items are only planetary in scale. You know, just like Darth Sidious is above at this point? There people beneath him who ravage entire world just by arriving on them. His master in particular. Who he is explicitly noted to have surpassed at this point? The World Class Items don't compare to what Darth Sidious has shown to be capable of.

It's hyperbole.

No, it fucking isn't. The fact you just claimed it is makes it clear that you do not know what hyperbole even is. It clearly describes how the tremor goes from the surface, to the core of the planet, and then to the stars themselves. That there is an explicit change as Darth Sidious murders Darth Plagueis.

Unless you have something that explains why the Jedi Council, who were on Coruscant, as well as all the other Jedi there, failed to mention a huge shift in the dark side as well as the planet itself moving.

They weren't anywhere near there, and we already know they both make every preparation necessary to hide their existence from the Jedi Order. This to the point Darth Sidious could be in front of a Jedi Master, and they don't even realize he is a Sith Lord.

As possibly a result of Sidious' innate telepathic/empathetic shielding, Shaak Ti is incapable of probing him through the Force.

The fact that Palpatine was flustered, confused, possibly frightened was obvious. But when Shaak Ti attempted to read him through the Force, she found it difficult to get a sense of what he was truly feeling.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

Which is ignoring that they suspect that the Jedi Order actually was sensing their activities to an extent.

While manipulating midi-chlorians to imbalance the force.

Palpatine’s eyes sparkled in sadistic delight. Valorum was getting everything he deserved. He had demonstrated some diplomatic skill during the Stark Hyperspace War, but his election to the chancellorship had more to do with a pedigree that included three Supreme Chancellors and deals he had cut with influential families like the Kalpanas and the Tarkins of Eriadu. His adulation of the Jedi Order was well known; less so his hypocrisy—much of his family wealth derived from lucrative contracts his ancestors had entered into with the Trade Federation. His election seven years earlier had been one of the signs Plagueis had been waiting for—the return to power of a Valorum—and had followed on the heels of a remarkable breakthrough Plagueis and Sidious had engineered in manipulating midi-chlorians. A breakthrough the Muun had described as “galactonic.” Both of them suspected that the Jedi had sensed it as well, light-years distant on Coruscant.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Everything you quoted is from Palpatine's personal perspective. Neither the world nor the stars were affected.

No, both the planet and the stars were explicilty effected as noted by the narration and we even see the burst of energy from Darth Plagueis before he dies. That Darth Sidious is at ground zero of it, and it doesn't even faze him.

It just felt that way to him.

Holy shit. You honestly don't know jack shit about Star Wars.

You do know these people are ridiculously powerful clairvoyants, and precognitives? If they feel something amiss it means something.

And yet you use such exaggerations to claim solar status when the guy had to get Plag black-out drunk before killing him in his sleep. *golf clap*

As I noted before Darth Sidious became more powerful than Darth Plagueis after this. The act of murdering Darth Plagueis caused a transference in the force. He took his masters place. As explicit with the Rule of Two. The act of doing so greatly changes someone, and this wasn't even Darth Sidious at his strongest in Dark Empire.

The reason he got his master drunk was because Darth Sidious is not an idiot, and he wasn't about to face someone as powerful as he was at his best.

Again, you fail to grasp how these things work. As I mentioned, it requires things of a Godly-tier or a WCI.

Of which we have seen the scale of, and they are typically beneath what Darth Sidoous is capable of. They are only planetary.

Meaning things on a mass reality altering level.

You mean like how Darth Sidious is able to create disruptions in the space-time continuum large enough to destroy entire worlds?

In other words; Rule Breaking.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. You are like a broken record.

And, once again, it made a clear difference between Resistance and Immunity.

You yourself proved that the writer of Overlord himself doesn't know what immunity even means, and noted a specific example where it was overpowered. As such it is not a true immunity, and simply a resistance too.

Resistance is only up to a certain point, which rings true for all games.

Oh great, gameplay mechanics. Those are never abused as no-limit fallacies.

#sarcasm

Immunity means nothing of that type will affect you.

You just brought several examples proving that wrong, and that the writer doesn't even know what that word means. In this case this case the translator.

Which, again, is something that exists and works in all manner of games. Griping does not change these facts.

Which, again, is something that is a no-limit fallacy and does not exempt it from the burden of proof. You need solid evidence to back up these claims, and with such broad claims it impossible to provide evidence for them.

Except he's only going so far as to the extent of Force Heal, which was not uncommon in the TOR era. He never claims to be able to bring back the dead himself, only claiming he could save Plag from dying. There is a clear difference.

Darth Sidious explicitly brings up the example with Venamis. Which Darth Plagueis revives, and murders repeatedly using this technique. That he knows the technique, and simply refuses to use it on Darth Plagueis. You know, Darth Venamis? He knows this same technique.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

And you have yet to demonstrate how it's different nor how it bypasses Immunity. Again, different mechanics.

No, it isn't. You yourself noted that immunities can be overpowered by things. Which means they are not immunities but resistances. You can't say they're immunities, and then note they have been beaten or can be beaten. In that case they're not immunities.

And Force Ghosts are still connected to the Force, which is what the majority of Force Users use in the application of Telepathy.

So, now you're trying to argue that Darth Sidious can't even use the force here because it's not a part of Ainz Ooal Gown? You do know that even Kyle Katarn was able to use the force against a Yuuzhan Vong. Who are explicitly not connected to it?

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Except what you brought up is so vaguely worded and hyperbolic that you can't even quantify it.

No, it is quantifiable. It even gives us the exact number of the population on Byss. 19.7 billion people living there.

You claim he took control of Byss' population. Now explain how he did it. Can you explain how? Cause I'm quite certain you can't explain how. That would require them to actually show him doing it and not just saying he did it.

I already explained how he did it. He used his dark powers, and we know he used it to put them into a dreaming state. We know he drew their life-energies, and we know that he knows how to use force drain. Which what typically used these situations. Heck, here is another excerpt explaining what happened.

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Show me what Sid can actually do with it in actual battle instead of using hyperbole.

None of what I posted so far was hyperbole, and it's on you that your reading comprehension is so abysmal.

I know it's your mainstay form of debating, using nothing but hyperbole instead of actual, applicable, quantifiable feats, but do try to actually show him doing something directly.

Now this isn't even original. You're just trying to throw back what I said about you at me. As you are so butt mad you can't come up with anything yourself. You really need to work on your imagination there, pal.

As for Demiurge, his passive is for anyone within range of his voice.

So, in others words the Demiurage has nothing that is quantifiable? Good to know.

Anti-Teleportation makes BFR impossible.

Prove that this Anti-Teleportation is powerful enough negate force storms, and things that can destroy worlds.

TK on sentients also requires overpowering their will and resistance,

In the case of Darth Sidious he can do so against the minds of billions of people. Are you seriously going to erroneously claim that somehow Ainz Ooal Gown has a defense against that when he has no feats against something of that scale?

and Ainz is immune to mental effects and has passive resistances against attacks which Sid has no direct means of bypassing.

As you yourself noted immunities are not flawless even within the context of Overlord, and can be beaten. That they have been beaten.

Yet, you still dishonestly claim that they are unbeatable.

Dark Side =/= Negative Energy and Ainz has Drain Immunity anyway.

Show me Ainz Ooal Gown resisting a force drain, or any equivalent that siphons the energies of billions of people.

Dark Side energy is most certainly not positive energy. It's the exact opposite.

It's like you didn't read anything that was posted at all. Go figure.

Wow, this is ironic coming from you considering what you have just posted. I guess denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Also Sid's storm he used on a moon, not a planet, and its effect on the surface was gradual over a limited area and was traveling across the moon's surface, not encompassing it entirely. So it's really nothing at all for Ainz to worry about.

Are you forgetting that Dark Sidious used a force storm in Dark Empire #1, and that it ravaged the surface of Coruscant? He specifically used one to collect Luke Skywalker, and bring him to him from across the galaxy. Which again shows both its range, and precision. What's you're thinking of happens in Dark Empire #6 when it destroyed an entire fleet of star-ships surrounding a large moon which eclipsed several other nearby moons in size. You can't even get these events straight. After which point Luke Skywalker, and Leia Organa worked together to make the force storm go out of control.

It is noted to be able to tear the surface off worlds here:

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook and Tales of the Jedi Companion

As well as kill worlds here.

"The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

Which is backed up by the fact weaker Sith Lords such as Darth Plagueis, and Darth Nihilus can ravage entire planets with almost no effort on their part.

But since you love hyperbole,

Nothing that I posted so far has been hyperbole.

Ainz can easily kill the tree demon Zy'tl Q'ae, which is said to have the power to destroy the world.

Now show me them actually doing anything like that. I already showed you what Darth Plagueis could do as he was dying when he shook an entire planet to its core along with several nearby stars, and him ravaging an entire world just by arriving on it. It is clearly not hyperbole, and describing an event that is happening. Which is even written in the third person, and not the first person making it clear that it is the narrator describing events.

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.

A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.

Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Later it would be said by Naboo and Gungan alike that they couldn’t recall a colder winter than the one that followed Hego Damask’s autumnal visit to their world. The rivers and even the falls below Theed froze; the rolling plains and tall forests were blanketed three meters deep with snow; plasmic quakes rocked the Gallo Mountains and the Lake Country, the Holy Places and the undersea city of Otoh Gunga; and many of the egresses of the underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

So we can range that anywhere from life-wiping to planet-busting.

No, you can't because unlike Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious they don't have feats to back up their claims.

Ainz confers with the Floor Guardians and flat out states that any of them could kill it easily and would pose no threat at all to them.

Which again proves that they're not capable of destroying planets if characters that weak can manhandle them. Nice job doing my work for me.

Zy'tl Q'ae is also roughly a third the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Not impressive random Jedi Knights like Rivi-Anu can hold up things the size of Star Destroyers long enough for her allies to escape, and Galen Marek is able to change the course of ISD as it is going through atmospheric re-entry. Which means he dealt with both it, and the resulting kinetic energy from falling from orbit. Who both beneath Darth Sidious by a considerable margin to the point Galen Marek's suicide attack did Darth Sidious no harm, and Rivi-Anu is the bog standard for Jedi Knights.

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No it just bends space to create a wormhole. Still not nearly as impressive as summoning the power of an eldritch horror from Lovecraftian mythos.

False equivalence. I already brought this up at Anime Vice. Any alternate versions of a Great Old One do not apply to all versions of it. Just like Hercules from God of War doesn't get Hercules accolades, and abilities from Marvel. By the way, D never fought Cthulhu and it was a flimsy expy of it where they didn't even get the name right.

@reikai said:

@decaf_wizard: That's th same as claiming fire should hurt a fire elemental despite it being immune to fire. Childishly spouting off "NLF" doesn't make it so. And storm is an advanced form of lightning, of which there are several variants. Again, none of which would work.

Do you have any other arguments you wish to attempt?

No, it isn't. There are literally examples of fire so hot that it burns fire in fiction. Yes, seriously on top of being able to destroy the fabric of reality. Also, that is ignoring the nature of force lightning. It doesn't just attack a person's body. It ravages their soul as well, and saps their life-force. Which powerful practitioners of the dark side can use against force ghosts too.

Heck, even Darth Plagueis could shake an entire planet and several nearby stars as he was dying. Who is beneath Darth Sidious at this point. Darth Sidious does not even need to use force storm. He could squish Ainz Ooal Gown without it.

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves.

At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.

A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.

Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Also, even without having to do anything Darth Plagueis was powerful enough to make Naboo experience the worst winter it had in its history. Which froze all of the rivers on the planet, blanketed all the plains and tall forests with three meters of snow, caused plasmic quakes that rocked entire mountain ranges and lakes, the holy places, the undersea cities, and underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes. This just by Darth Plagueis arriving on the planet.

Later it would be said by Naboo and Gungan alike that they couldn’t recall a colder winter than the one that followed Hego Damask’s autumnal visit to their world. The rivers and even the falls below Theed froze; the rolling plains and tall forests were blanketed three meters deep with snow; plasmic quakes rocked the Gallo Mountains and the Lake Country, the Holy Places and the undersea city of Otoh Gunga; and many of the egresses of the underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Emperor Palpatine is regarded as the most powerful Sith to exist.

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

--Taken from Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

He is named the most powerful of the Banite Sith.

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

Palpatine trained under Plagueis until he became more powerful and killed his master.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

--Taken from Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

"My own Master, Darth Plagueis, made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

As for force storms, and telepathy.

Palpatine describes the creation of his Force Storm in his Book of Anger. It only requires an act of will for him to create them.

It is repeatedly noted to be able to pulverize space, and time. As well as the fabric of reality.

"I have learned that Anger and Will, joined together, are the greatest Power.

I have learned to meditate upon Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released—the energies of the dark side of the Force.

Standing watch with the mind, in my meditation of Anger, I have slain my enemies from great distances, through the dark side Power that permeates the galaxy. I have created lightning, and unleashed its destructive fire.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.

Through a simple act of Will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires merely thought and inclination, I admit I am not yet able to completely control the phenomenon. Among my goals is to perfect this control."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

The effect of Force Storm is explained.

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook and Tales of the Jedi Companion

"The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.

--Taken from Handbook Volume Three: Dark Empire

Before even fully mastering the technique, Palpatine creates a Force Storm with enough skill and precision to transport his body to Kaal from the second Death Star II without causing noticeable damage to the Death Star.

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

Darth Sidious controlling the people of Byss. Who number at nearly twenty billion.

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The Emperor erases memories, presumably by utilization of Memory Rub, in very possibly millions of people on Coruscant in order to conceal the location of the Star Destroyer Lusankya's burial place.

The Lusankya—aSuper Star Destroyer eight kilometerslength—laid waste to the area beneath which it had lain buried for years. Green turbolaser bolts pounded the cityscape, freeing the ship from the ferrocrete and transparisteel prison in which it had laired. Wedge knew Super Star Destroyers had only come into service after the Battle of Yavin, which meant the Lusankya had to have been created and hidden on Coruscant before the battle of Endor. Unless the constructor droids just built it there, then built over it. The idea that a hundred-square-kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especially with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried? As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative—that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses—seemed that much more horrible.

--Taken from X-Wing: Krytos Trap

Now director of the Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne worked to demonstrate the usefulness of her office to the only person that mattered—the Emperor. Impressed with her suggestion to build a combination internment center and brainwashing facility, Palpatine gave her the Super Star DesteroyerExecutor from the Kuat shipyards—a twin to Vader’s Executor from Fondor. She renamed the vessel Lusankya, and, with help from the Emperor’s mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant’s Manarai Mountain district.

--Taken from The New Essential Guide to Characters

As for speed, and reflexes.

Jaden Korr reacting to, and slapping a laser back at a scout ship after it's already been fired.

He fell into the Force as the scout ship’s wings flared and the weapons fired. To him, events seemed to slow. The lines of the ship’s lasers extended outward from its guns, slowly reaching across space, crayon lines drawn by an invisiblechild.

In the Force, he sensed the trajectory of the blasts, the line of their approach. His lightsaber spun through space, the Force-augmented motion stressing the hardsuit. The shots slammed into the yellow line of his blade, and he deflected them back at the ship’s cockpit. They split the space between them and knifed into the cockpit, which exploded into flame. The scout ship, bleeding smoke, streaked toward the pod.

-- Star Wars: Riptide

Darth Vader stopping one of I-Five's lasers, and just for reference I-Five outright refers to his lasers as light-speed, citing it down to the kilometer.

I-Five's laser, and his statement on it.

Jax shrugged. "It makes no difference if it's the sixth one or the first one that kills you. Dead is dead. "

"I wouldn't know. I do know, however, ", I-Five said, "that you're much better with that sword than you think you are. "

Jax glanced down at the weapon, saw his disorted reflection looking back at him from the blade's surface. "Yeah? How do you know th---?"

I-Five suddenly whipped up his left hand, index finger extended, and fired a laser beam at Jax. The beam splashed off the ionized fire that suddenly coated the length of the blade, which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.

"That's how," I-Five said, "The speed of light is just under three hundred thousand kilometers per second. You are currently seven-point-three meters from me. Your Force-augmented anticipatory reflex action is obviously working fine. You just have to let it."

-- Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows

Darth Vader reacting to, and stopping I-Five's laser in mid-air after the fact.

"Tell the droid to give me the bota, Pavan."

"The droid doesn't have it," said I-Five suddenly. Both hands came up in a lethal gesture, lasers firing. The beams sliced toward Vader . . . and stopped mere centimeters from his outstretched hand.

-- Coruscant Nights III: Patterns Of The Force

These two aren't faster than light but they do show that even Sith Acolytes can react, and attack within microseconds.

Darth Bane as a Sith Acolyte training with Fohargh.

No Caption Provided

Another instance of Darth Bane training with Kas'im.

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Vestara Khai's showing of reacting within a nanosecond.

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Sarasu Taalon's showing of reacting within a nanosecond, and blocking a blast from a longshot after the fact with his bare hand. Mind you, that was after his dip in the Pool of Knowledge.

Come now, Master Skywalker. Taalon’s voice reached Luke more inside his mind than in his ears—a simple enough Force trick, but nonetheless one that sent a chill down Luke’s back. There will be time enough for that after we talk.

Luke replied in a normal speaking voice. “You expect me to come down?”

Well, you haven’t blasted me yet, Taalon countered.

Luke pressed the trigger and held it down—then felt his jaw drop as bolts began to ricochet off the High Lord’s palm. It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them, the High Lord’s hand had risen to deflect it, traveling so fast that the appendage had literally seemed to disappear from one place and reappear in another.

After tolerating the volley for a couple of seconds, Taalon grew weary of defending himself and crooked a finger. Luke tightened his grasp on the longblaster, expecting to feel it being ripped from his hands through the Force. Instead he found himself sliding out of his hiding place and tumbling through the air as he dropped toward the beach.

Luke tossed the longblaster aside and snatched his lightsaber, then quickly used the Force to right himself before he reached the beach. But Taalon did not hurl him into the sand, or even attempt to send him flying into Gavar Khai’s scarlet blade. He merely dropped Luke to the ground at a distance of five meters, then motioned for Khai to put his weapon away.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

There also the time when Abeloth was able to act within the time-frame of a nanosecond, and attack Luke Skywalker so quickly that a nanosecond was barely enough time for him to dodge her attack.

He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first. Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor. Abeloth was on top of him, her flesh blistered and smoking, her remaining leg entwining both of his, her remaining arm wrapped around the back of his neck.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

So yeah, speed is not an issue for Darth Sidious. As for Darth Sidious, and his fight with Mace Windu.

Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Not even Anakin Skywalker was able to see them clearly moving. When he has no problem seeing star-fighters moving at a respectable fraction of light-speed, and reacting quickly enough to dodge them even when they're about to crash into him.

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"

"My thought exactly."

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

Heck, even MagnaGuards have relativistic reflexes. Which can't be construed as anything but speed.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.

He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him. In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

-- Revenge of the Sith

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@jay_z94 said:

@boogeymonster: In terms of being decapitated with bladed weapons, he's resisted a sword, a giant blade and an adamantium buzzsaw, yet all the weapons stopped at his adamantium neck.

Also that scan with Logan's tendons are irrelevant. If you knew anything about anatomy, tendons have nothing to with holding bones together. All they do is attach the muscle belly to the bone.

Always like this one right here;

Then there's this one too;

Sorry Boogey, but if his skeletal structure were as you wish it to be, his head would have been rolling.

Alright, as I noted with the first scan you provided we see the sword break on Wolverine's skin suggesting some measure of superhuman durability outside of his bones. We don't even see it pierce his skin.

In the latter example no one bothered to show the previous scan where it was clear that Wolverine didn't stop it with his hand. Not until you just did. All we had was a close up, and the only reason we didn't see his hand there was due to perspective (aka, the panel being zoomed in onto his face). It was impossible for me to know since no one specified the issue number so I could look at the whole issue myself. It contradicts itself in that very scene as well. As we see a bunch of shots tear through Wolverine right after that. One going straight through his arm, and shoulder. As well as two other shots going through his rib cage, and back. Why are those shots able to go straight through him when they should be stopped by his bones?

Also, as I noted previously that sword is too large to pass between the vertebrae in Wolverine's neck. It would end up hitting the vertebrae instead which are encased in adamantium.

I would have replied earlier but I was banned for "your mother is fat" jokes in regards to Bruce Rogers.

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@brucerogers:

'Other' direction most definitely not meaning 'around'.

It does, and other direction many meanings in this context. In this case Sabertooh pushed Wolverine's head back in the opposite direction, and twisted it into a half circle around until there was a resounding cracking noise. I can't believe I have to give you a visual demonstration of what a twist can look like:

Loading Video...

Lemme know when you get that corrective surgery done.

I think the only one here who needs corrective eye surgery right now is you.

And yet, you cannot offer a single shed of evidence to support your claims besides throwing a hissy fit and making personal comments.

I provided many examples supporting my side of the argument, and you have chosen to ignore that and pretend it doesn't exist by trying to erroneously claim they mean something entirely different from what we're seeing there.

What scans do you need issue numbers for?. Just ask, I will provide them.

I don't really care anymore, and has just got increasingly more ridiculous as you spew more meaningless things out of your mouth.

Wrong.

No, it's right.

No Caption Provided

That was because Creed had his claws into his stomach.

No, that was to keep Wolverine still as he twists his head around and breaks his neck. Then Wolverine falls down.

Yes, because of the slashing wounds he received from the fight. Seriously, I already gave you back the scans circled in red.

Which are not deliberating wounds that would disable Wolverine for more than twenty-four hours. This is a guy who can go around fighting without a face, and with fatal wounds. What does explain that it took so long was because a vertebrae was popped out of place. As healing a dislocation is much more difficult than a flesh wound without popping the bone back in.

What more do you want?. Want me to use a darker shade of red and increase it's diameter?

No, I want to stop ignoring that those are the only wounds he sustained in his fight with Sabertooth and that they are enough to incapacitate him for over twenty-four hours.

Heh, keep up with the personal attacks, tough guy. It's completely making your arguments so much more convincing and it's totally not against the rules.

As if you are not doing it either. I am just more straightforward about it then you are. I can be honest about it. I am an asshole, and I love myself for it.

Riiiiiigghhht.

That's the bottom line. It's sad you can't see it.

> Starts making personal attacks when getting his asinine arguments shut down

> Accuses others of being frustrated.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA, lord you aren't one for irony are you?

It's supposed to be green. You can't even chan post correctly. That's a whole new low for you. Get good, sucka.

You are frustrated, and it is delicious. You're practically simmering.

I love myself some irony, and yours is particularly interesting to watch.

Boy, you just love to hear yourself yap the same points over and over again, don't you?

I am a sexy man, and I do love to hear the sound of my voice. It is certainly more pleasant than the gibberish you're spouting.

Lol.

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The only thing overwhelming here, is your bias.

Not as overwhelming of the size of your mother. I confused her for the eclipse the last time I saw her.

"Hi yourself" said the kettle, to the pot.

You know, I love me some black on black racism. When will our people stop hating each other, and learn to love?

Wanna rephrase that in something more sensible?. I won't hold my breath though.

It's perfectly sensible, and what happened. Now you see here folks this is what we call yellow journalism.

It's not about the truth. It is about building a story. Bruce Rogers thinks he is good at it but what he doesn't understand is that I have seen this done a thousand times before.

Nah, I ran out of shame a long time ago. Don't expect any miracles.

You know, people say pride and dignity can lead you down a dark path but I say apathy can do you much worse.

No I said, it's all over the place. Learn what that phrase means. It's not a stumper.

You can't have both, Bruce. It's either good, or bad. The world isn't grey like a lot people say it is. It's painfully linear.

Whichever you decide it works in the favor of my argument.

On an average, he heals from slash and bullets wounds nigh instantly or at least quick enough to not be felled by them.

Which works in the favor of my argument because that means Sabertooh did break his neck. As those flesh wounds should have healed right away.

That instance with Sabertooth was a low showing, among the ones I pointed out.

No, this is you trying to work into your narrative and ignore that there was more damage than that.

Come back when you learn what words like, 'consistency', 'all over the place' or 'around' mean.

The more you say those words the clearer it becomes that you're the one who needs a dictionary on hand.

You don't know what you are arguing anymore, are you?

I do but I am fairly certain you don't. As you just admitted to not knowing about Luther Strode, and debating for the sake of it rather than any real reason.

Uh-uh.

So, you agree. Now there's the miracle you were looking for.

We found a middle ground.

I could elaborate a bit, but the phrase 'wasted effort' comes to mind.

So, once again you're just doing to get the last word in? Well, that's predictable.

Check your own scans.

I already have, and they support my argument not yours.

There is such thing as Spider-man being challenged by characters far weaker than Firelord, while there hasn't been a consistent instance of Wolverine getting dismembered by people weaker than class 100s

There has also been plenty of instances where we see his joints, and tendons can be damaged. Which makes sense considering the fact if they were adamantium he would be nothing more than a statue incapable of doing anything other than a monument to pigeon droppings.

And with that, lemme know if you want the sentence rephrased for the 500th time so that it can finally suit your reading comprehension skills.

And with that, I have ask that your mother stops calling me. That's the tenth message this day, and it is beginning to become annoying if I do say so.

Secondary Adamantium is not the topic of this discussion here.

It certainly is since it's nearly as strong, and you're ignoring that the very next instance I bring has a demon of no worth and little standing. A servile minion breaking off one of Wolverine's fingers, and using it as a tooth pick.

Go cry about it.

It must be a shame. Just having to live in your mother's shadow.

I imagine the shade it provides is useful but being downwind of that must be a nightmare.

You mean blow out of proportions according how YOU want him to be. The sure.

No, I mean blow out of proportion according to what he is typically capable of outside of his showings over other characters.

Okay?

Which means Wolverine has a reason to dodge bullets. As there are bullets that can hurt in this universe.

Dunno what this has to do with anything....

You specifically brought up him willing to block any stranger's punch, attack, or whatever. As one example.

That is some next level mental gymnastics.

Not really, no it's not. The explanation you're trying to use for this.

Now that is a whole new world of mental gymnastics.

Given your kind of asinine doubletalk?. I can wholeheartedly agree with you.

No, that's not what that was saying at all. What I was saying was that I have to be careful with you because I can never be sure in what unpredictable, and nonsensical way you might respond.

So you don't understand how consistency works.

That's not what that was saying either. Yet, you complain about my reading comprehension?

Of course you don't. I wasn't even arguing on the outcome of this fight btw. Just your ridiculous reasoning.

So, you're literally just doing this because of how frustrated you are over this one particular detail in question and the fact you're wrong about?

That's quite the derailment.

Cool.

I think you should be disagreeing with me there because apparently you didn't read the second half of that part. That, or you're agreeing with me.

The only thing that was noted in your last post is how you like to lie and butcher context in order to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven. Kimura simply redirected the claws away, while avoiding the pointy end. She did not tank it or shrug them off.

Kimura blocked them with the palms of her hands. We see see X-23's claws fail to cut through them. We see them pressing against her hands, and failing to slice them. Kimura was not redirecting anything there, and she can't be hurt X-23's claws. This is a fact.

Claws make slapping noises now?. You really don't get how sounds work, do you?

No, they made a slapping noise because they hit the palm of Kimura's hands. Which are soft, and malleable. You get that sort of sound when you hit something like that. The only difference here is that Kimura has some measure of superhuman durability like Luke Cage.

The slapping noise is of her *gasp smacking the claws away carefully in the middle, thus avoiding getting cut by them.

No, it isn't. Kimura raises her hands in defense, the claws are still pressed against her palms failing to slice her hands, and then she beats up X-23.

You would know, right?

You certainly like your projection.

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@cergic:

I just want to point out that Wolverine clearly isn't stopping the blade with his hand. The writers intention is very obvious = His neck stopped it. He is pushing the blade up again (after the initial stop) to ease the pressure on his neck region, preventing it from being forced down, since pressure and force is still being applied, which makes sense since the massive blade is still there and in use. It would be rather stupid if Wolverine DIDN'T react with any of his hands.

So, you wrote that comic book then? Don't try to argue author intent unless you are the author. Going by what we saw he used his hand to make sure it wouldn't go all the way, and there still the question of whether the blade was between vertebrae or hitting a vertebrae. If it was even thin enough to slip between the vertebrae to begin with, and it clearly wasn't because it was humongous. That sort of blade wouldn never be able to slip between vertebrae.

Also, Sabertooth is very clearly not twisting the neck. I am in fact fairly sure that it is not even 90 degrees twisted. If anything he jerked it to the side and began but never finished a twist and Nothing else. But it's transparent that twisting did not occur in that panel.

It is obvious that twisting did occur, and that Sabertooth was twisting his head around until their was a pop in a vertebrae. There's more than one way to twist something around, and now we're arguing semantics. You can twist something around in a circular manner such as it was here, and there were even lines denoting the twist around in the art.

No Caption Provided

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@brucerogers:

Either look up what around means or buy glasses. Or do both, for good measure.

That's obviously what Sabertooth did you utterly moronic imbecile. Wolverine's head was turned towards the other direction.

Sure, the same way you 'crack' a knuckle.

No, here it's clearly point towards the fact Sabertooth broke his neck you dumb ass.

I am not the one going out of my specifically looking for issues in order to reach and support my point.

I am not the one refusing to provide issue numbers, and purposely turning a blind eye to the obvious like you are.

Besides that sound effect, there is literally no evidence of his neck being broken.

Okay, lets see. His head was twisted into another direction, there was a snapping noise, Wolverine collapsed, and he was unable to do anything as Sabertooth scratched at his chest.

For starters, he doesn't act like how one would do so with a broken neck. Keep reaching though...

He literally does he drops like a sack of potatoes, and stack immobile for more than a day before getting back up after healing.

Sure thing man. And that resulted in Logan falling nigh immobile on the ground and totally passing out till he healed his broken neck, along with Sabertooth walking away with a job well done.

That's exactly what happened you completely obtuse mongoloid. Wolverine's neck was broke, he fell to the ground, he was taken advantage of, and he couldn't get back up from more than a freaking day before healing the damage.

Oh wait, that didn't happen.

That is exactly what happened, and now you're becoming delusional.

Frustrated?. Naw. I am having the time of my life. Please keep up the good work.

Yes, you are frustrated. You're even stuttering, and using more periods than necessary. I suggest to take sit, and a deep breath.

Just relax before you hurt yourself.

Except, where is the gosh darn evidence of him having his neck broken?.

I provided it, and it is quite clear. Wolverine's neck was broken after having the vertebra snapped. He fell to the ground, and couldn't properly defend himself. He laid there for more than a day as his healing factor kicked, snapped his neck back into place, healed his threat, and what scratches he had on his chest.

There isn't any, that's what.

There is plenty, and I already provided it.

The fact that there is no evidence of him getting his neck broken, proves there was no dislocation involved.

The fact there is overwhelmingly evidence that it was broken proves there was dislocation involved. I have already been over this.

Hi kettle, said the pot.

No, your side of the argument started this ridiculousness when you tried to argue for something so asinine.

You clearly missed what was a very obvious part of your own scans. No worries, I have circled it out in red for you.

I have already seen that, and as I noted before it's just a scratch. At most Sabertooth took some skin away from Wolverine's chest. We do not see the depth of the wound, the scene is in shadows with a red back drop, and what dried blood there was doesn't suggest it was any more severe than the throat slash.

Flimsy excuse begets flimsy excuse.

So, you're acknowledging that your excuse is flimsy? At least have some shame.

Yes because his healing factor is kind of all over the place. For example you will see him get blown up and flayed alive by an energy blast and completely heal mid combat in a minute or two tops and at the same time take far longer to heal from getting half of his face melted away by fire. IIRC Daken once managed to put him out for quite a long time by cutting his stomach, when he was walked through far worse. Hell, in a Jason Aaron issue where he fought most of his rogues at a party hosted by Sabertooth, it took him ages to heal from a slashed wound to the face and stomach.

So, now you're arguing that his healing factor is so weak that it takes him more than a day to heal from his neck being slashed and his chest being scratched? Okay then, Luther Strode slashes him in the chest and neck. He is down for more than day, and has effectively lost the match against him. This works against you. I was giving you an out, and noting that it was also the broken neck Wolverine healed from. Which it was. Now Wolverine is so pathetic that just getting his chest scratched, and his throat slashed puts him out of commission for more twenty-four hours. You prefer that option just because of how frustrated you are over being objectively wrong?

You get the idea.

You are an idiot. I don't think you're capable of getting the idea.

Already explained myself. Scroll up a bit.

Yeah, and it was utterly moronic and makes you seem like you're just arguing for the sake of it now.

I am pretty sure he would have fallen with both arms to his sides, if he had lost motor control. That was clearly an attacking position.

Jesus fucking Christ, do you even hear yourself right now? Just listen to what you're saying. You know what at this point I don't think either of use can convince each other. At best we can hope for a agree to disagree situation.

Useless?. Sure. Why?. Because he was just getting mauled by Sabertooth.

Who he couldn't even defend against, and he was helpless as Sabertooth scratched the skin from his chest.

I have circled scans for you in red above. But keep digressing...

Which confirm what I was saying about them to begin with, and that you're exaggerating them.

They don't have to show it. Even a mention of it would have sufficed.

They did one better, and showed us directly in an obvious way before showing how long it took Wolverine to get back together.

As it stands, your headcanon is all that you are passing of as evidence.

No, you're the guys working on head canon right now. I am going what is shown, and seen.

If this was the case, which was contradicted Wolverine getting his bones shattered or dismembered anytime someone like Hulk or close hit him, I would be inclined to agree with you. But that's not the case, so tough luck.

There is such as thing as Spiderman defeating Firelord, and just like Spiderman we know Wolverine can be prone to doing great against opponents he has no right to be fighting. That is the case, and it is notoriously so.

And again, Adamantium is canonically one of the hardest known substances in the Marvel universe, which has never been broken by anyone short of a skyfather. Barring spells or molecular manipulation. So Hulk being unable to break his bones does not reflect poorly on him. Adamantium is just that hard.

Marvel Team-Up #18

No Caption Provided

Uncanny X-Men #160

No Caption Provided

Yeah, I know the former is probably secondary adamantium but I am just going to point out the Hulk has no problem dealing the mass manufactured type of adamantium. Besides that, with Wolverine it's nearly impossible to tell due to his popularity and writers having him do great against people who should smear him from the start of the fight. That's why I use X-23 instead.

So now his skin is hard enough to break swords?. Cool, thanks for the durability feat.

I am perfectly fine with this. I don't hate Wolverine. I just hate it when people blow what he is capable out of proportion. You know, like now.

For the same reason why he decides to actually start moving his limbs and make with the blocking and fighting. Wolverine has dodged bullets on occasions, so does that automatically mean he can't take bullets?.

His skeleton surely can. His skin, and muscle is debatable but the problem is this universe is a place where adamantium ammunition exists. You can see firearms using exotic metals, and what have you. Frank Castle uses adamantium bullets on occasion for example.

He has blocked strikes from random thugs before, does that mean he can't take their hits?

That means he is not stupid enough to simply let them hit him, and he is always prepared to fight whoever it is. As he is not stupid enough to let someone hit him in a world where anyone can be a badass.

Keep reaching..

I am not reaching.

Seeing as how much reaching you have done so far....

I have not been reaching. Your lot is adding context that is not there. You're making up context. Then working it in your favor.

Yes he needed his healing factor to fix his damaged tendons. Thanks, captain obvious.

Which along with his joints are what keep his bones together. His joints keep them locked in, and his tendons keep the muscles attached to the bones.

Awesome. Not please show the scan where it says his healing factor is what is keeping his bones from coming apart.

It's what keeps his tendons attached to his bones, and keeps his muscles from being torn away from. The rest of that comes from the fact we see him heal his dislocated vertebra when Sabertooth broke his neck.

Use your head for once.

Then bring something new to the table for once. Regurgitating the same arguments will make anyone sick.

You're the one who is bringing the same arguments to the table. I am getting sick of your arguments, and having to rebuke them constantly.

With unsuccessful results.

You mean successful results. As you have provided no counter evidence, counter arguments that makes sense.

You are right, O learned one. Please tell us more about how your cherry picking passes of as the norm.

The fact you can't even see how you're nitpicking, and cherry picking is the problem here. You're too deep into your delusions to convince.

Sarcasm?. Thanks, I had no idea O snarky one. I legit thought you were impressed by that -.-

I always have to make sure with you. There's no telling how might interpret something form what I have seen.

Right, show me five instances of either character taking hits from powerhouse level characters, without any enhancements. It can even be from the same powerhouse. And I will show you 15 more where they get hurt or beaten up by far weaker. Do you honestly not grasp the concept of consistency?

I do the problem that you're not grasping is that comic books Marvel and DC in particular are some of the most notoriously inconsistent fictional mediums ever. Due to the sheer number of artists, and writers. They are the only fiction where you constantly have to sigh, and just put the book down when you see Batman kick Darkseid in the face.

I dunno Strode, so I cannot argue that.

Okay then, I have no idea why we're having this argument if that's the case.

He isn't immortal and he has never been taken apart by explosions was my point. Seeing as it went over your head, again.

He is immortal. Seriously, he is functionally immortal in the sense he can regenerate from fatal wounds and doesn't age normally. The point didn't go over my head. I understand what you're trying to say but I already rebuked it by showing that his joints can be popped, and his tendons cut.

Consistency, such an alien concept amirite?

No, it really isn't. What you don't understand is that you're using those inconsistent instances here.

I meant in terms of cutting his skin with this claws. But sure, yes.

Yet, it fails against the likes of Kimura. As I already noted in my last post.

As does every popular street leveller in comics. Your point?

My point is that you're using those examples unironically. That's my point.

Except it looks like she is clearly redirecting the claws by smacking them away, not just standing there tanking them. Do you even hear yourself?.

Kimura literally just has her hands in open, and waits for X-23 to hit her. The slapping noise is from her claws failing to do anything once they hit the palms of her hands. Which was still pushed against her palms in the next panel in the bottom.

No Caption Provided

Lol.

So, nothing of substance then?

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#8  Edited By Boogeymonster

@jay_z94:

In terms of being decapitated with bladed weapons, he's resisted a sword, a giant blade and an adamantium buzzsaw, yet all the weapons stopped at his adamantium neck.

There's a difference between trying to break through or cut a bone, and dislocating one in order to tear it away. The example brought up with the giant blade is unclear on whether it was between vertebrae or hitting the bone. Considering how large it was it probably wasn't slipping between them as the space between vertebra is tiny. Besides that, Wolverine was using one of his arms to stop it. As for the others were they hitting the bone, or the joints between them?

Also that scan with Logan's tendons are irrelevant. If you knew anything about anatomy, tendons have nothing to with holding bones together. All they do is attach the muscle belly to the bone.

I never claimed they are what holds bones together. Someone else did, and said that tendons were indestructible. I countered with what I provided there. I said joints did that. As for tendons they are what keeps the muscles attached to the bone. Along with the joint which keeps the bone attached.

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Dude, that's the entire point of it being brought up to begin with. He can tear tendons holding the muscles onto the bone. We already know that the bones can be dislocated. Now that along with the fact his tendons can be cut means arms and legs can be torn away. You do know that arms, and legs have muscles?

Yet, you claim I don't know anything about anatomy. You don't even know limbs have muscles.

Jesus Christ, you're an idiot.

Also you haven't debunked the hulk scan at all. He had a full grip over the claws and his hands weren't sliding, hence we was able to apply his full force.

Not really, as we see when Wolverine retracts his claws. Which means it was able to slip through, and cut his hands. Which means one of two things. The Hulk didn't have a good grasp, or the strength of the retraction of Wolverine's claws is greater than the Hulk's grip. Which do you think is more likely? It sure as hell isn't the latter.

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#9  Edited By Boogeymonster

@brucerogers:

First of all it wasn't twisted around.

First of all it was twisted around. Get over it.

It was merely jerked to the side.

This to the point it was twisted around, and cracked.

So yeah, the sound effect is practically the sole basis for your argument here.

No, it isn't and look who is nitpicking now? You lot have the nerve to claim this of me. When you're ignoring this plainly obvious instance when Sabertooth breaks Wolverine's neck.

Connective tissues don't go 'KRK' after breaking....

That's certainly what you hear when when a bone is being dislocated. As it slips out of place.

No it really doesn't.

Yes, it really does and you're just frustrated over the fact I have such blatant example of you being wrong. That you're trying to rationalize it away by being pedantic.

The KRK sound, assuming we take it at face value, could just be the sound of the bubbles popping in the Synovial fluid, between the joints.

Oh, you mean like the sound a bone makes when it dislocates and goes out of place? That exact sound is what you hear is something being dislocated.

Kind of like how some people can crack their knuckles, their wrists or necks.

Also, like when someone has a bone that suddenly dislocates after having their head twisted around so much their neck breaks.

As for why Creed even bothered doing it, it could be to disorient him by rapidly jerking his head to the side.

Oh wow, you really are reaching. You see people this is what it actually looks like when someone tries to use a ham-handed excuse.

So what?. My point is that it still played a factor in ultimately putting him down for a significant amount of time. I am also referring to the panel, where Creed rips his chest out. Just before the one where he says "I am not". I can circle it in red, if it will make it easy for you.

Wolverine's chest is never ripped open. Sabertooth only scratches his chest, and what blood we see afterwards the damage wasn't even significant when compared to how Sabertooth slashed his throat prior to all of this in the previous page. You don't need to because I am the one who posted the scan to begin with. I am familiar with Wolverine #19.

And yet, you think breaking connective tissues makes such sounds?. Mkay.

It certainly is the sound of a vertebrae popping out of place when Wolverine's neck was twisted in just the wrong way.

In any case, I just brought them up as a possible explanation. I didn't necessarily believe in that myself.

Okay then, at least you acknowledge these are just flimsy excuses when faced with the obvious. I will give you that much credit.

And like I wrote previously, the slashed throat combined with getting his chest shredded was enough to put knock him out.

Along with the fact Wolverine just had one of the vertebrae in his neck popped out of place. Do you seriously think just slashing his throat, and scratching his chest is enough to put him out of commission for more than a day?

Not your so called 'neck breaking'.

You just said you didn't believe your flimsy excuses to begin with, and now you're changing your story again?

I didn't say anything about his claws being out. I was talking about the placements of his arms once Creed was on top of him.

I already addressed this. There was one arm that was laying on his chest motionless, and another stuck in mid air doing nothing to stop Sabertooth.

His left was on his chin and his right arm was extended towards Creed, as if he was planning to attack him. Wouldn't have been possible with a broken neck.

No, his left hand was on his chest and laying there useless and his right arm was in the air doing nothing to stop Sabertooth. Neither of his limbs were actually doing anything, and can be attributed to the fact Wolverine fell after his neck was broken.

Look who is talking...

No, you lot erroneously claimed this of me when I had a good reason to say what I did. Now you're doing what you claimed I did.

Yeah, I said getting his throat slashed and his chest ripped open played a role in putting him to sleep. How exactly am I wrong?

His throat slashed, and chest scratched. It wasn't ripped open, and we don't even the extent of the damage. Going by the blood there wasn't much. You're wrong in that you're ignoring the fact Wolverine getting his neck broken is another factor is how long it took him to heal.

You would think that if he had any dislocated joints or tendons, we would have seen it on panel...

You can't see those sort of things. You can see a broken bone popping out of someone's arm, or leg. You can't clearly see a dislocated vertebrae, arm, or leg. The bones don't stick out of the skin in those cases.

Em why exactly?. Before Logan retracted his claws, you clearly see Hulk struggling to pull him apart and failing. So yes, the point still stands.

No, it doesn't and I don't using examples with characters that are hilariously more powerful than Wolverine and who be able to defeat him easily. Seriously, even Grey Hulk could destroy asteroids twice the size of earth. That was Savage Hulk going by the color of his skin. Who is even stronger. That is the outlier you are looking for. Which is ignoring that Wolverine retracted his claws before that could happen, and cut the Hulk's hands.

He has had weapons break on contact with his bones to many times to boot too. I could find each instance if I can make some time for it.

Honestly, I am getting tired of these same arguments being repeated over again and the other side ignoring the obvious into fit this into their narrative. As I already noted that wasn't a feat for his bones. That was his skin that it broke on.

And just because he decides to block for once, that automatically means he cannot take it if he did nothing?.

Yes, why in the world would he be so worried that he would try to stop the robot? If not for that very reason to begin with?

What do you expect him to do, just stand there and keep tanking without moving a muscle?

It would certainly help your case, and prove your point. As currently it services my own stance.

Don't exaggerate. It was just bend. The problem here is you are focusing far too much on the artistic choice.

So, we can't even rely on what we're seeing now either? You have been using both the art, and text just as I have been.

You are just making crap up now. Nowhere was it stated that the healing factor was the only thing preventing from this bones from coming apart.

It specifically notes that it was healing factor fixing the damage to his tendons, and what was going to eventually fix them was that. So, Frank Castle ran him down.

Hell, just a few panels earlier, the chainsaw was outright damaged due to being unable to cut through his bones.

That's the keyword there. Wolverine's bones. It cut through his tendons, and those are not the same his bones. Frank Castle makes note of this. He says as such.

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And again, they just cut the tendons and muscles. Nothing more or more specifically, nothing that could dismember him.

I already noted as such, and the fact they could cut the tendons is what I was talking about. In order to dislocate, and remove a bone from a person you need to get past the tendon. The cartilage connecting muscle to bone.

Been over this.

So have I, and I am getting sick of this back and forth.

Been over this.

Which I rebuked several times.

No sir, all you have done is hunt down and cherry pick scans.

This is the same thing you guys have been doing since page one.

Logan has been dropped off great heights,

Oh wow, that is such a big deal. That's sarcasm by the way.

taken beatings from powerhouses,

Many of which don't make sense, and just Spiderman he is notorious for having people job to him. Just like Batman.

have weapons break on his skin,

Which is not enough to protect him from Luther Strode's strength. As he can pulverize warehouses as early on as The Strange Talent of Luther Strode. Then after that he can pulverize through many feet of solid concrete, and survive punches from people who hit as hard as tank shells.

get blown apart more times than he care to count and yet,

Due to his healing factor more than anything else, and the fact he is basically immortal.

he has never really suffered from any kind of dismemberment or dislocation of his joints.

He has suffered from both dislocation, and his tendons being cut. So, you're wrong there as I have already noted.

And who said he is?. Wolverine only acts as a nuisance for people like Hulk due to the adamantium and the healing factor.

He shouldn't even be nuisance this is a person who can slap him into outer space without even trying, and exerting no effort.

He isn't a threat to him in any shape or form. Even moreso with Silver Surfer.

Yet, he ends up alongside them or being made to be somehow relevant against low-level heralds.

And for the last time, Spidey does not consistently hurt guys like Hulk, but Logan does.

Which is ridiculous by the way, and I often question if that's truly due to his popularity as a character rather than his adamantium. As even Kimura can block adamantium claws with her bare hands when fighting X-23.

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Only because of the adamantium. That is not to say he is a threat for him.

Which can be blocked by someone as durable as Kimura. Which makes it all the more ridiculous it can hurt the likes of the Hulk.

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John Wick doesn't know the basics of CQC.

Big Boss teaches him, and mother base gets a new soldier.