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acer51

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Silk. She's a villain to fans of Felicia Hardy, and general decency.

This, and why has Felica degenerated into a petty villain?

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acer51

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@acer51: well yes 616 was destroyed but it was also restored...

Rebirth of the universe

Some time before the Multiverse was no more, Doctor Doom had investigated this phenomenon, and confronted those partially responsible for this, the Beyonders. Using the power of the Molecule Men from different realities, Doom destroyed the Beyonders and stole their power.

With the power of the Beyonders, Doom salvaged the remnants of different realities and built Battleworld, a patchwork planet composed of these remains and its inhabitants. The raft containing the survivors of Earth-616 found its way into Battleworld, and the survivors set out to defeat God Emperor Doom. In the end, Reed Richards acquired the power that was Doom's, and began to use the omnipotent power of the Beyonders to rebuild the Multiverse, starting with his own universe, Earth-616.

Yea sort of, and basically is an excuse for the writers to retcon as they please.

Which ultimately boils down to changing the gender or ethnicities of several major characters.

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#3  Edited By acer51
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@healed1337: The guys always emotionally compromised, he slashes computer terminals whenever he doesn't get what he wants.

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@acer51 said:

This is a guy who can stop time, who killed all of Lukes apprentices without Luke being able to stop him and got the son of the chosen one to go off and grow a depression beard.

Kylo Ren is portrayed as a formidable darksider with unseen force powers and weaponry, I don't think the writers meant us to take his defeat lightly.

Stop time? What? Stopping a laser blast and immobilizing people is not the same as stopping time. If anything it's a creative use of TK through the force, and the novel explains that when he tried to use the immobilization on Rey after she started using the force, he couldn't, so he force pushed her instead. If it doesn't work on Rey, then it wouldn't work on the more force experienced Luke of EST either - especially when you could argue he somehow used TK to guide the proton torpedoes in A New Hope. How else did the unguided missiles turn into the exhaust port so easily?

And again, he was emotionally compromised by killing his father to the point where he couldn't sense the bowcaster laser coming at his gut. He has a lot of offensive power with the force, sure, but he lacks control, was badly injured in that fight and was under orders to take Rey in alive. On the other hand, Rey is fighting for her life as far as she knows, and that tends to give people focus. Even then, she's being pushed back for most of the fight and only beats him after she lets the force take control, much like how Luke let the force take control when he blew up the Death Star.

An uninjured Kylo Ren with more training in the next movie will be a much more formidable opponent.

Oh and also, if the flashback scene is of the Jedi massacre, then Kylo most certainly wasn't alone.

That is an unprecedented move, and everything else we've seen ab out Kylo is meant to portray him as a powerful force user, he is the son of Leia, daughter of the chosen one after all.

It is also well established that Luke Skywalker only used force powers to improve his already expert level piloting skills while aided by Ben Kenobi, a common force user feat not an unprecedented one.

I don't know why you are trying to lowball such a powerful Knight of Ren.

The way I see it there's no in between here, he's either a weak punk, which would be inconsistent with the movies plot.

Or he is indeed a dangerous force adept and that a runaway Storm Trooper from sanitation and a scavver from Jakku defeated her can all be chalked up to destiny.

I'm going with destiny.

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#6  Edited By acer51

@nerevarine_11 said:
@acer51 said:
@healed1337 said:
@acer51 said:

I was just talking about current Luke, by now Rey has beaten a high powered darksider while at beginning of Episode V Luke had almost no Jedi training and was realistically lacking in corresponding ability.

Not sure where you're getting that Kylo Ren is all that when he's grievously injured, emotionally compromised and hasn't finished his training yet. I'm pretty sure that end of ESB Luke would beat Kylo even without his injuries, especially considering he managed to strike Darth Vader's shoulder before getting his hand cut off.

This is a guy who can stop time, who killed all of Lukes apprentices without Luke being able to stop him and got the son of the chosen one to go off and grow a depression beard.

Kylo Ren is portrayed as a formidable darksider with unseen force powers and weaponry, I don't think the writers meant us to take his defeat lightly.

@nerevarine_11 said:
@i_am_lamont_cranston said:

Luke at the start of Empire could barely manage a Force pull with no resistance except snow. Rey mastered this at the end of TFA with another Jedi/Sith/Ren (whatever the new hotness is in the Abramsverse) pulling against her. Then on top of that something, something, melee weapon and she takes this pretty easily. Luke also doesn't have the power of the scriptwriter and the director and the producer easing his path with plot armor. He's toast.

Rey has immensely more prominent plot armor than Luke. Luke has been bailed, aided, helped, saved however you wanna call it, more so than his "plot armor" feats. Luke was just thrashed by a wampa, something twice his size and immensely powerful. Not to mention he was dragged to god knows where, in below freezing to a cave, where he was presumably hung up brutally by the wampa. Also, there we're two. Who knows if they tried to eat him first, fought over his "corpse", or threw him around to make sure he was dead. Read some of his more prominent and current comic book feats, which shows him honing his Jedi skills in battles and clashes with The Empire. Rey meanwhile, can somehow survive alone with no threat of rape, banditry, or thirst for a good decade, manage to fly the Millennium Falcon, repair it, have an extremely detailed force vision, and have saber skills to tango with Ren. Not to mention she used a mind-trick, a very detailed one on a stormtrooper, evaded thousands of other troopers and Ren, and also climbed well enough to evade them as well. She has so much plot armor, it made me cringe. Either way, Luke wins.

You have just outlined the very reasons why Rey should win. When a character has this much plot armor you are forced to stop regarding it as PIS and have to take it as an integral part of her character, therefore due to being portrayed as FAR more powerful than Luke and indeed having more potential than just about any character in the EU let alone the cannon setting she should be able to take Luke from beginning of Empire quite easily.

Reading comprehension...sigh. Luke at the beginning of Empire has had much more experience, again, and would have no problem beating Rey, since most of his feats in the current comics outclass Rey by a mile. Again, being redundant, since we're including all feats. And getting to Rey. No sane person would regard what she does as a feat. Its all PIS. That is an absolute. We don't take bad writing and Macguffins into good arguments, because they get dismantled easier than a mistreated car. There is no scenario where Rey could win, especially somebody with erratic, untrained force abilities that even she is afraid of. Again, she was lucky enough to "beat" a severely emotionally and physically crippled Ren, how is she going to beat somebody who has actually fought more than she has. Not to mention Luke has exceedingly better force potential as time went on, considering he was the son of a prophetic force user. Luke doesn't stomp, but he wins with moderate trouble.

When every action a character does is PIS it becomes less PIS and an integral part of their character.

Like Superman, Superman is a ridiculously powerful character, hate him or don't, a lot of people do but he's still the most powerful Superhero out there.

Rey is from what's been seen the most powerful force user out there.

The girl learned force persuasion, a highly advanced force trick, in a matter of minutes just by observing someone else attempt it.

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#7  Edited By acer51

@acer51 said:

I was just talking about current Luke, by now Rey has beaten a high powered darksider while at beginning of Episode V Luke had almost no Jedi training and was realistically lacking in corresponding ability.

Not sure where you're getting that Kylo Ren is all that when he's grievously injured, emotionally compromised and hasn't finished his training yet. I'm pretty sure that end of ESB Luke would beat Kylo even without his injuries, especially considering he managed to strike Darth Vader's shoulder before getting his hand cut off.

This is a guy who can stop time, who killed all of Lukes apprentices without Luke being able to stop him and got the son of the chosen one to go off and grow a depression beard.

Kylo Ren is portrayed as a formidable darksider with unseen force powers and weaponry, I don't think the writers meant us to take his defeat lightly.

@i_am_lamont_cranston said:

Luke at the start of Empire could barely manage a Force pull with no resistance except snow. Rey mastered this at the end of TFA with another Jedi/Sith/Ren (whatever the new hotness is in the Abramsverse) pulling against her. Then on top of that something, something, melee weapon and she takes this pretty easily. Luke also doesn't have the power of the scriptwriter and the director and the producer easing his path with plot armor. He's toast.

Rey has immensely more prominent plot armor than Luke. Luke has been bailed, aided, helped, saved however you wanna call it, more so than his "plot armor" feats. Luke was just thrashed by a wampa, something twice his size and immensely powerful. Not to mention he was dragged to god knows where, in below freezing to a cave, where he was presumably hung up brutally by the wampa. Also, there we're two. Who knows if they tried to eat him first, fought over his "corpse", or threw him around to make sure he was dead. Read some of his more prominent and current comic book feats, which shows him honing his Jedi skills in battles and clashes with The Empire. Rey meanwhile, can somehow survive alone with no threat of rape, banditry, or thirst for a good decade, manage to fly the Millennium Falcon, repair it, have an extremely detailed force vision, and have saber skills to tango with Ren. Not to mention she used a mind-trick, a very detailed one on a stormtrooper, evaded thousands of other troopers and Ren, and also climbed well enough to evade them as well. She has so much plot armor, it made me cringe. Either way, Luke wins.

You have just outlined the very reasons why Rey should win. When a character has this much plot armor you are forced to stop regarding it as PIS and have to take it as an integral part of her character, therefore due to being portrayed as FAR more powerful than Luke and indeed having more potential than just about any character in the EU let alone the cannon setting she should be able to take Luke from beginning of Empire quite easily.

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@acer51 said:

Based on her appearances Rey is already 100x more potentially powerful than Luke, within one week of training she should be able to overcome his advantage in experiences.

Sure but as things stand now, Empire Luke is still above Rey.

I was just talking about current Luke, by now Rey has beaten a high powered darksider while at beginning of Episode V Luke had almost no Jedi training and was realistically lacking in corresponding ability.

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#9  Edited By acer51

@i_am_lamont_cranston said:

Luke at the start of Empire could barely manage a Force pull with no resistance except snow. Rey mastered this at the end of TFA with another Jedi/Sith/Ren (whatever the new hotness is in the Abramsverse) pulling against her. Then on top of that something, something, melee and she takes this pretty easily. Luke also doesn't have the power of the scriptwriter and the director and the producer easing his path with plot armor. He's toast.

Also this.

I'd also like to add this was completed after the course of three days of her journey with Harrison Ford, during which she retrieved no training.

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Based on her appearances Rey is already 100x more potentially powerful than Luke, within one week of training she should be able to overcome his advantage in experiences.