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beatboks1

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@professorrespect:

This would then prove the opposite, given how Mordru's status as a Lord of Chaos has been in effect since pre-Zero Hour days.

what are you on about. Mordu has been a lord of Chaos since before crisis.

His first appearance chronologically post crisis was in Amethyst on gem world. He was summoned by a wizard on that world seeking power. He possessed that wizard the same way that Nabu possesses the wielders of his helm. He was not at his full power at this point as he was bound by the limitations of a mortal shell.

The same way in which Nabu was limited when he possessed the former dead body of Kent Nelson to train Eric and Linda (though not as limited because Kent's body had wielded a lot of magic for several decades during the Kali Uga when chaos was at its peak and order had to fight harder) The same way Shat Ru was limited when Inza trapped him in the same body after Nabu moved on.

After that he trapped the soul of said wizard and bound it to him reducing the limitations immensely. I the same way that when Kent and Inza or Eric and Linda merge they are more powerful than a single mortal form possessed by Nabu because the power can be used between two life forces and used more without causing harm.

the thing is that Mordru drained Jay of the speed force in their first JSA encounter. In a later encounter after he had also taken the body and a link to the soul of Arion Lord High mage of Atlantis (and son of the lord of Order Calculha (father) and lord of Chaos Majistra (mother) his power was further amped. This story is the very reason that you can't retroactively use Mordru's current level and how his power applies now to how it was when drained speed force from Jay. In that story he was defeated because he was bound by the very laws of magic you say his current status says he isn't. He was also bound in the Rock of Eternity by Laws of magic that you say he isn't now (this was even after the Arion story). Since rebirth makes all old stories canon these stories are canon also. These stories happened after his snacking on speed force. So either the current level has no baring on the speed force feat or you prove that both these particularly stories weren't made canon in rebirth.

Once you can prove that that these stories aren't canon your argument holds water, until then it is just your statement contradicted by the feats he has and their order of progression.

If his status as a Lord of Chaos is in effect when, how is he bound by the laws of magic retroactively? Mordru was only as such when he was simply a strong magic user back in Pre Crisis within the 31st century.

First I'm saying he isn't bound by them retroactively, asking me how he is, is a strange question. Second as a Lord of Chaos post Crisis he was bound by these very laws of magic in Amethyst and twice in JSA, the two JSA stories were AFTER he had drained speed force. I don't need to prove anything. I already have proof of him being bound by the laws of magic after the Jay Garrick Feat. As such his current status can't be applied to that feat because it didn't apply to his latter feats pre 52.

Would that then imply that Loki didn't actually do much at all then? They did meet up if I recall in the same story and Loki got overpowered in like, one panel.

Aside from cutting a character off from the power cosmic. A power source in Marvel very bit as powerful as the Speed force in DC. I suggest you read the story again then, they fought for a few pages. Then Loki copped a blast then a couple pages later as I recall.

Nope, Loki used the Norn Stones a few times but these were very spaced out throughout the years (some happened in the 60's, some in the 70's, but mostly dropped after that) and he lost them a while back.

Right, I've read easily 9 stories where he has used them since 82, and only read an occasional Thor issue. Way I see it that is a greater rate of use than Wally has of the speed steal so should we call that non standard? Hell if you add every time wally has used the speed steal since then and divide by his appearances and do the same for Loki, the Norn stones are more commonly used than all Speed steal powers. Wally has appeared in 2700 comics to Loki's 1900. classic tales is a few hundred for each.

Oh, this is the statement feat about them in which both are compared to each other? That's extremely dated and obviously not accurate to anything modern these days. You might as well use Thor time travelling or Loki reality warping if that's your point. Not only that, but Loki got completely overwhelmed by just a bit of Dormammu's power and turned insane: not sure what point you are trying to make there.

the fact that you answered this as though I had said something I hadn't amazes me. I said they arent equals. I said it wasn't the case so trying to school me on something that I already said is the case is very disingenuous. I offered the two times that he was compared to Dormammu only to show it had been done. I also said that it wasn't the case. It does however show that since he took power from Dorm's he can take power vastly above his. Loki took the power of Dormammu in Avengers 118, and 119. That was with the aid of the evil eye (which isn't standard gear). He went seemingly mad from all that power, or did he. We learned in Thor 230 something that he had in fact left a doppelganger apparently insane while he studied Dormammu's powers for months.

Not true, Loki will not go as to kill Thor but he will beat him to a pulp

That is just it, Zoom is exactly the same. Loki NEEDS to have his brother see him as his superior, so can never beat him to the point where that isn't possible. He craves his brother's respect. Zoom Needs to make wally a better hero. Loki has saved Thor many many times and Zoom will never put Wally \'s life at risk. Both hold back because what makes them an enemy demands it.

This thread gives Loki 2 days of prep. In the first hour he uses a simple spell of divination to learn what he needs to know to win. he then summons what ever artefact he needs to give him that win condition (likely the Norn stones as he has used them before and has referred to them "as power"

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beatboks1

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@professorrespect:

I'm afraid it does in this particularity considering Mordru's role as a Lord of Chaos was adjusted.

That's simply not possible because Rebirth makes all the old pre 52 stories canon. That means it makes the stories after the JSA issue he did that to Jay canon. In other words it makes the stories where he was bound bynthe laws of magic canon. Your argument is therefore invalid unless you can prove without a doubt what stories pre 52 aren't canon.

Proof?

He went into space innthe scan I showed. Going into space allowed SS full access to the PC that he was denied when in the barrier G put around earth

Lol, context. He used the Norn Stones to accomplish this, not himself, so that's completely wrong.

You mean the same Norn stonesbhe has used consistently since the character was created. The same Norn stones he has used almostn3 dozen times since he stated they were no longer his. The same Norn stones that were no longer his during that very arc and he summoned.. basically stones that are virtually as regular gear for him as Mjilnor is for Thor.

it's complete wank to say he's even close to equalling out with Dormammu, consistently he's getting his ass kicked by Thor.

I didn't say he was equal to Domammu (though Domammu has on panel, but that is just hyperbole and I beleive more meant to compare their evil). I said hebhas regularly taken power from those above him in power (he has and that was bit 1 example). Also he looses to Thor because he loves his brother and holds back. Zoom looses to Flash because he wasn't to make him a better hero and holds back. It's a plot device to allow the hero to win against who they shouldn't

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#3  Edited By beatboks1
@professorrespect said:

This is a pretty tricky ask as Loki doesn't have any knowledge of the Speed Force, so the suggestion that he's going to somehow figure this out through looking at parts of his life wouldn't be easy. There's guys who have spent their whole life (and more!) researching the Speed Force and still struggling to figure out the whole thing. Max Mercury comes to mind. Loki has mystical knowledge, but I doubt he can figure out such a complex mechanic and not only know how it works, but how to counter it or even manipulate the Forces themselves when far more intelligent and capable people have not succeeded.

For you, maybe, but Rebirth Mordru is a continuation of Post Crisis: he's not effected by the retcons. Regardless, you are still trying to scale Loki as the same tier as Mordru, which erm, isn't true by consistent levels. Mordru is a teambuster, Loki loses to Thor on a regular basis, outright getting bullied at points by him. Just because he has some really nice high ends doesn't make him the same.

Which as I've said, Surfer wasn't the hyped up herald he is now then, he was a lot weaker and written quite differently. One can recall him struggling with Classic 60's Thing multiple times over, or not being able to shatter nuke-proof force fields, or struggling to defeat the Doomsday Man in 1 v 1 combat, needing to BFR him in the Earth to win. These are just a few examples of how weak he was, so scaling Loki to be Surfer+ based on modern stuff is not quite correct in practicality.

1. Seriously dude what are you on about. Loki doesn't watch peoples lives. He has the power of devination. It is as simple as cast a spell and he knows what he wants to know magically.

Definition devination

"the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means."

not watching his life. He casts a spell of devination and he simply knows things. He casts a soell to know what Flash's powers and weaknesses are and he does. No requirement what so ever to understand them or watch hours or even minutes of Flash's life.

2. Rebirth makes all old continuity a part of the new continuity. It doesn't retroactively change past continuity to be a part of the current. The fact is that there are feats of Lords of Chaos being bound by the laws of magic that you say chaos magic users aren't (because since Nu52 they aren't) after Mordru faced Jay and was draining his speed force energy. In short at the time he did that the current status quo didn't apply and rebirth doesn't change that.

surfer was amped to the current levels he has been for decades by Loki in that story. Then Loki cut him off from his board. The board is and always has been his link to the power cosmic. The botom line is that he cut off his source connection to the power cosmic. It doesn't matter how powerful SS is since he still get's that power from the same source. The argument was given by Supermanwithatan that Loki couldn't cut off Flash from speed force because he has never cut off Surfer from PC but he has. Wally in the 80's early 90's was only a sonic level character who had to consume vast amounts of food because of how many calories he burned. When he powered up he didn't gain a new power he simply accessed the speed force better. Just like SS when he was limited by Galactus had a restriction on how much PC he could draw, when he increased his restriction was less and he was drawing more power he wan't suddenly drawing power from a new source.

Loki has amped and depowered many characters throughout his history. he has amped them beyond levels of power he himself has demonstrated and he has depowered beings above his level in power. The level has never been an issue for him. Loki was able to amp the Avengers to be a match for Void. He was able to absorb and understand the power of Dormammu. both these are vastly beyond his power level and above the feats of any he has beaten and he can do that.

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@professorrespect:

No, I said he would need to know what Flash's powers and weaknesses are and how that is employed. IF Loki needed to watch events unfold to learn it (whichbhe doesn't) that requires no more than an few hours of the Flash's life. But since all he has to do is a divination spell which simply gives him the knowledge he is asking for (whether it's future events or unknown information) he doesn't.

No I didn't read Rebirth, but it wasn't Rebirth Mordru who absorbed speed force so it's irrelevant. Since the version of Mordru who did that was bound by the laws of magic tour whole argument is incorrect.

My apologies I see now I mixed up some of your post with that of Supermanwithatan.

No it wasn't pre space. It was after Loki amped Surfer to end pre space which allowed Surfer to breach Galactus' barrier. Loki is the reason Surfer got good feats in the first place.

@supermanwithatan01:

1. Lokibdoesnt just use magic, he also uses science. He's also done almost all of that as well

2. All of those combined don't match a fewnof thosebive mentioned and more I'm about to.

3. Surfers good feats exist because Loki amped him in the first place. It's also not the only time he has amped someon

e significantly

4. Why

5. How is any of that different from things Loki Hs done a thousand times plus

Finally

Kid Loki arguably the weakest Loki of all has beaten Nightmare, was the source of a fear crown Mephisto used to amp himself to become the one Satan of all hells (only way to stop him was for kid Loki to die so the fear crown that came from his mind would be destroyed), has hidden the world heart from the cosmic knowledge of Galactus. Another non amped Loki has bested Mother (who is so far beyond skyfather it's a joke)

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@professorrespect: I've listed 6 issues and referenced 2 stories of which only one is "classic" Loki. Dominatiinnfacterbwas 2000 and the of then4bother references are all post 1990.

When did I say hr has to watch all of Flash's HISTORY? he has divination so can cast a spell that simply tells him all of his Flashes powers and his weaknesses and how they have been used against him.

You are so wrong about Mordru not being bound by the laws of magic and able to do whatever he wants.bif you really want to go that route I can scan dump for days images of DC lords of chaos being bound by the rules of magic. I think your well aware of how well versed innthe lore behind DC Lords of order and chaos I am. Even if this was remotely true Loki also uses chaos magic so he is capable of the same.

The total and utter irony that you finished of your post saying that Loki has never cut Surfer off from the power cosmic when he in fact has is also not lost on me either. He has literally cut him off from the power of his board

https://64.media.tumblr.com/9c3ceb217a5bb08477bcf605011a66b3/tumblr_o9lop597JS1rvm5qqo4_1280.jpg

@supermanwithatan01:

The fact that you think Abra Kadabra and others are more powerful than Loki amazes me. When has Abra Kadabra ever shown power onntue level that can

1. Shatter classic Strange's shields

2. One shot BRB

3. Take down Silver Surfer in one instance and depower him in another

4. Hurt Surtur

5. Turned Bor into Ice

Loki hA taken on skyfathers alone he is above all the flashbrougues bar maybe Zolomon.

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@professorrespect: he has more than 4. I've read at least 8 times where he has used time manip of some kind. He used it in 4 separate issues of the Domination factor mini series alone (issues 1,2,5,8) plus in Thor 454, Thor 12 and two other stores I can't recall the issue numbers of. One was a partnof the ego death storyline and one was a part of the last day's. Now I've probably read less than 1/4 of all Loki's appearances so it's highly likely the 8 is more like 30 or so plus. But it's not only 4.

1. Loki has the power of devination that he has used many dozens of times. In prep he could use this to learn what he needs to know about Flash. I doing so he would learn that Flash's speed is useless against Zoom who has time based power not speed and whole an amped wally can't even perceive (that was after Wally absorbed the speednof Jay and Jessie). He would also be able to learn that Mordru could feed upon and drain speed force from Jay Garrick and how to do so.

2. Having knowledge of time manip being one of the few advantages against Flash and that power, the likelihood he would employ it grows exponentially. The likelihood that he wouldn't employ it is ridiculously small. Loki doesn't have the jealousy of Flash that he has of Thor that makes him act rashly and emotionally (which is why he does much better vs other adversaries)

Loki devines Flash's powers and weaknesses in less than an hours prep. Armed with that knowledge he uses his power over time to alter his time rate relative to Flash's so that he statues him (the se way Zoom statues Flash). Battle starts and with the knowledge Lokinhas gained of magic being able to devour the speed force (ah la Mordru) he socks Flash of his powers making him faster and Flash slower and uses all the mentioned methods for a Flash win against him

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Gee a prep battle between a speedster not known for prep and a mischievous sorcerois God who is known for prep.

I wonder how that will go.

I've seen stupid arguments that Flash will beat him before he reacts. Loki has heaps of time manip feats why would Flash even get a chance when Loki in prep can prepare a time stop spell that we knkw from domination factor 1 and 2 he is immune to.

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Gotta admit, this question has really piqued my interest and had me doing a lot of google searching to research it.

Another glaring oversight on the graph that I've found. Batman home entertainment isn't listed on the graph. Yet "the numbers" shows domestic (US only) DVD sales for the franchise are $773,353,443. Thats without figures for the Batman Brave and the bold cartoon series or the Batman Beyond series, or movies like Batman under the red hood that did $12m domestically on its own. Its also without the sales of DVDS for the Batman 1966 TV series which onnits own is $171,374,107 domestically only.  So domestic home media alone is easily over a billion given the figures we do know add up to $956m.  Usually world wide box office is equal to or about 1.2 to 1.3x domestic, I would assume DVD sales to be similar. Especially since Spidey's home entertainment is shown as $2.07b and his actual domestic sales are listed by the Numbers as  $659,526,604

https://m.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Batman

https://m.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Spider-Man

If you drop down video you can see the full breakdown.

So we have Batman's video games missing $3b plus (probably 3.5 a lot of those earlier games on NES, SNES, Sega, N64, and PSX/2 etc weren't as expensive.

We have over $2B of home entertainment revenue missing

We have a serious shortfall on TV income given Netflix alone paid $175m for Gotham. As it aired on the Fox network US, Nine Network and Foxtel pay TV service Au, CTV and M3 Canada, Channel 5 UK, Rte2 Ireland and TV2 New Zealand that's a lot more payments for it. My guess would be smaller markets like NZ only paid 100k per episode while Larger markets paid 300 to 400k. I mean the show got an average of 7.5m viewers US, 3m Canada, 3m UK, and 3M Au for its first season. That's 16.5 million viewers in only  4 markets and 3 of those markets population combined  is less than half the US population (it's really no wonder Netflix paid so much for the rights). If we say the average is 200,000 per episode times 100 episodes and 8 channels across those markets that $ 160 million.  Which on balance is probably light since Netflix paid for streaming rights in those same markets AFTER these networks had it first. Added to which many aired it more than  once and had catch up (Netflix only has the rights to stream a season after the network in that region has finished airing it). So a single TV show is at least 320 million earnings, probably well over 400m.  With all 10 cartoon series and other shows like 1966 Batman, Batwoman, Birds of Prey,  Pennyworth,  it would have to be at least 600m not 40m (some of those series like Batwoman and BoP didn't do so well and cartoons are usually cheaper because they appeal to the younger market without their own financial resources). Although the spiderman graph shows tv revenue of $880m and that's with only 10 cartoons and the single season of the 1977 live action Spiderman that unfortunately failed to get viewers (I liked it, not as much as incredible Hulk but it was OK, at least as good as the Shazam series of the same era).

There's no doubt Spidey takes the merchandise sales by a landslide. It wasn't the case when I was a kid with all the merchandise based of the Adam West TV series (I had a Utility belt with a shield, Bavarians and cuffs, both a Batman and Robin costume, action figures of Batman, Robin, Joker, catwoman, riddler and Penquin plus the metal batmobile, bat boat, and bat copter). His movies have also made more per film (even adjusted for inflation) given how many more films Batman has had.

I also think the number on the graph for Spiderman games is quite low. I think it's only taking into consideration more recent games. I had Spidey games on SNES, Sega MD, PSX, PS2 etc just like I had Batman games. The only console I ever had that I dont remember a game for either on was the Intellivision.

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I can't watch this anymore.

It just keeps finding new depths to drop to every week.

This writing team needs the sack

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@paleblood:

This

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/sns-201410311731reedbusivarietyn1201344529-20141031-story,amp.html

Is why Netflix had to pay so much for Gotham.

It's premier episode netted Fox 22 million viewers in the 1st month. 8.3 million on debut plus the rest in catch up, VOD, etc.

Accoding to 2 sites I found 1 million viewers of a TV show nets the TV station between 400,000 to 450,000 in ad revenue for the episode. That episode net 3 3 to 3.7 mill for fox alone on debut. For most of the first season they had live viewers numbers of 4.5 to 6 mill. There's no way they didn't have to pay well for the show and certainly to renew it. In season 5 it's viewership dropped to around 2.7 mill so by then bot so much. Season 1 and 2 of that TV Show alone had to make WB more than the 40 mill listed in the graph

1966 Batman had ratings numbers of 26 to 29 out of 49 in season 1 and half of season 2. It's numbers dropped at the end of S2 to around 22/23. With all the reruns and the 3.9 mill that the TV movie made alone, it would be a quarter of the 40 mill alone.

Add to that Batman Brave and the bold had Nielson viewer numbers of 2 mill in 2009, Batman Beyomd literally saved WB kids ratings spot.

I found a site that has the the box office numbers for the franchises

https://m.the-numbers.com/movies/franchises

Batman is number 4 behind MCU Star Wars and James bond with 24 movies listed as part of the franchise, including Joker and Catwoman. That's without doing any adjusting for inflation to equalise.

https://m.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Batman

Spidey is number 6 after Harry Potter with 10 movies including Venom

Bare in mind up until I started looking all this up I didn't think Batman won (I now do though with all the numbers I've found) but that it was very very close between him and spiderman.