bdelloidgrain2

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bdelloidgrain2

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I think Killer Bee would win with TBB spam if he really went for it and took it seriously.

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bdelloidgrain2

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Three major threats. I would say a wanked Prime (scaling off of TBWL) would win, but otherwise, I'm not too sure. Could be 50/50.

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bdelloidgrain2

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imagine if people on this site read comic books

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bdelloidgrain2

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Yeah, WF Mxy would take this.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@eredin12 said:

Odin, Midora, and Hit

Odin and Hit are time manipulators, with hax to take care of the team, Midora can support them with his lack manipulation hax as well, especially useful for Flash

Do you even need Midora and Hit? I mean, couldn't Odin probably solo?

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bdelloidgrain2

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This is interesting. I'd say Nightwing high difficulty. 5.5-6/10. Definitely close though. Nightwing just seems to be a better fighter.

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@bdelloidgrain2: Again, the main point of my disagreement from the start was that DC does not scale to the Leviathan hence dream will not scale to Narrative stack like structures (Keep in mind though that this is ignoring the size and scope of a single narrative, because that will make SCP almost unfair and leave little to discuss)

Alovenus isn't rising through narratives or anything. In her fight against Rufus all they were both doing was superimposing each other's truths over a single narrative-analogue.

Even excluding the Leviathan, DC still has a bigger cosmology than Umineko.

But excluding the Leviathan's narrative stack (which is fine), Dream still has Lucien's library and the Dreamrealm, which act as narratives transcending narratives (though it is finite). Main point is that Dream can do it.

Alovenus I don't know that much about so I'll refrain from commenting on that. Mainly because she seems a bit too Suggs (googolplex and that crap).

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bdelloidgrain2

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@enigma22 said:

@bdelloidgrain2

Firstly in regards to his comment stating that "anything we view as fiction, he transcends automatically" is a massive NLF that should never be used in any versus debates. This author has no authority to make this claim because he has no authority over other people's work of fictions.

I don't really see him claiming SCP-3812 beats all fiction. That indeed would be an NLF. But what's not an NLF is the thought about him transcending the entirety of DC because canonically he can. It's like an actual feat that he transcended the baseline Alpha Reality of the SCP Verse and then moved up the narrative stack. And that baseline reality is already infinitely bigger than DC. I believe even you think he has the larger cosmology going for him so i don't really understand why you think it would be an NLF?

So the moment SCP-3812 transcends, he cannot be stopped, but what about time travelling before he ascends a single layer up?

This part gets really tricky because then you will have to seperate the anomalous entity known as SCP-3812 with the ordinary human named Sam Howell. Like if you really want to go there then ok.....sure. You can probably kill Sam with a knife or a gun, no need for any time travel because yes he was a human before. But the moment he died and rose up from the grave he became SCP-3812 and there is nothing that doesn't suggest that from the moment he 'awakened' he wasn't already above the narrative.

His reality alteration powers actually come from this. And sure he wandered for a while and did some minor reality warping here and there but don't forget that the first time the Foundation interviewed him he was already talking about Ben his writer and being above him. And at that point absolutely nothing in this reality could have killed him. No Gods, no multiversal alien society, no Eldritch abominations, other metaphysical/pataphysical entities or even the writer could possibly kill him, let alone time travel.

There actually was a follow-up scan that i can't seem to find where djkaktus addressed it further by basically saying that the moment het wrote the entry, SCP-3812 already started his transcendance. Like the fictional version of djkaktus of course, a.k.a. Ben. I would love to post it but i can't seem to find it so i aplogize and you can disregard all this if you want. And honesetly it becomes abit paradoxy and a chicken and the egg situation because going back in time trying to kill Sam or his parents or his parents parents etc. won't work. Forcing Ben to write out Sam from a higher narrative level won't work. Forcing that author's author to force Ben to write him away won't work. But he did had to be written in the first place.

I understand that there is a narrative stack, but many cosmologies (for example, DC) not only have narrative warpers and narrative stacks (the Leviathan and Dream have control over narratives and stories) but they also have omnipotent characters.

Well sure. That's why i am debating in his favor because of the larger cosmology.

The problem I have with this is that sure someone can claim SCP-3812 transcends all of fiction.

I really don't see anyone saying that. There are stronger characters out there and he isn't even the strongest entity in the SCP verse.

By the way, Plot Bot versus SCP-3812? You probably debated against MichaelJulius right?

Him and a few others. Good times.

Hahahaha, you have my condolences.

Anyways, you're time travel point is actually quite good. Sam Howell died and then became SCP-3812, so if you went back in time to kill him, he would just logically turn into SCP-3812. I concede that point to you, it was well said.

I have two points I really want to make. I typed this to lmaolmaolmao (who I'm fairly certain is beyond fed up with my stubbornness and is probably ready to kill me), so I'll copy and paste this to you.

First of all, other characters in fiction have the potential to defeat SCP-3812. It might not be a 10/10 win for Featherine (for example), but I believe that it could be a 5/10.

Secondly, the problem is, higher cosmology is impressive, but it isn't the only thing that matters. For example, in Spawn, there is a character introduced called the Man of Miracles (MoM for short). That character is omnipotent, while the Spawn-verse is just a single universe (maybe two after God Spawn created one). The point is, despite SCP-3812 dwarfing MoM's cosmology, MoM would still win the fight (obviously). So there are problems with solely relying on cosmology (thought I do admit it is very important).

So while I do agree that cosmology is very important. And while I do agree that SCP-3812 has a ginormous cosmology to back up his impressive powers, there are other characters that have similar powers to that (Leviathan and Dream), are immune to those powers in the first place (I believe it was stated by in the comments that Alovenus is immune - not sure as to the validity), or are just straight up more powerful (omnipotents, for example).

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#9  Edited By bdelloidgrain2

@lmaolmaolmao said:
@bdelloidgrain2 said:

Ok, firstly. Calm down. It's really not that big of a deal. This is supposed to be just for fun. I don't get why everyone's getting so mad at this. Who gives a fuck about any of these characters?

Sure, the issue is no one likes repeating arguments, as it gets tiresome.

True, SCP-3812 is part of an SCP canon, but there are several different SCP canons, which, if I'm not mistaken, are not connected in any way.

The narrative cosmology is fairly consistent throughout (from what I know anyway). Most of the Inconsistencies exist in the lesser cosmology, which has been explained as the Swann rewriting and retconning the SCP articles from the higher narrative (kind of similar to how DC tried merging it's retcons). The SCPs are linked by various hyperlinks in the articles that lead to other SCP articles.

No, we wouldn't assume Featherine would start as a normal human. But we would through the entity's in a cosmological neutral setting.

what are you even saying here? So will you assume Featherine starts as a normal human or not?

How did that text make me come to the conclusion of his transcendence taking time? It wasn't just that text, it was others I posted as well, but I'll discuss this one. The fact that he didn't immediately transcend the narrative, instead just transcending the island, means it took time. Also, where did you find him previously transcending the author before that text? Mind showing the text? Thanks.

Thats massively misinterpreting it. SCP 3812 was never limited to local reality warping

The last option is the worst. The last option is that SCP-3812 cannot be measured in Humes, because it’s doing something else. Whatever fundamental aspect of its nature that allows it to warp reality is not the same aspect as literally everything else we have ever come across.

He was also already above the author by then:

SCP-3812: You… no, you can't see him. I can. I think he was above us at one point, but he's below me now. Yes, I see you there. I don't know what you did to me, but I'm pretty messed up, man. If you can figure something out here that would be great, because I really feel like I'm losing it. I'm scared too, man. You've got to do something, man. You've got to help me out here. Please, god, please.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion of his transcending becoming instant after transcending the first narrative? Could you elaborate on that?

If you limit his transcendence to take "time", then he had already superceded the time of the first narrative once he transcended that, so he is now operating on a higher level of time, which would make it functionally instant. You have to realise the narrative stack does not have some sort of an "over encompassing" time where we can objectively track 3812's transcendence speed, as with each transcendence the frame of reference itself shifts to a different time flow.

4th wall breaking kind of is a reality warping/narrative breaking event because it has to do with an entity acknowledging a higher narrative (kind of like how SCP operates, except he just transcends to the next narrative).

Thats not a power.

Narrative manipulation is metafictional though. I'm not sure how we can discuss this character without talking about metafiction. I mean, his entire power base is metafictional, so to just ignore that would be akin to ignoring the character altogether. Acknowledging a higher narrative is metafictional. Transcending to said higher narrative is metafictional.

I am not ignoring he is metafictional, I am ignoring the fact that it would mean anything in a vsdebate. You kinda ranted on the same thing some pages ago(saying "Muh transcending author is bullshit") so I don't know why you are returning to that stuff now.

In regards to your comment on multiversal lore, I don't agree with that at all.

I fail to see how that's my problem. Even DC itself follows a heirarchy of multiversal beings, with the hands being the most recently introduced thing.

I'm not really arguing for DC at this point, I'm arguing for literally everyone but SCP-3812, because you are under the impression that he just immediately transcends everyone and everything infinitely and no one or nothing can stop it from happening. I find that, firstly, a NLF, and secondly untrue because there are characters that are omnipotent, have narrative manipulation themselves (and can transcend back), are immune to transcending, etc.

I literally said some posts ago that in terms of ontology I see SCP 3812, Leviathan, Umineko etc being in the same ballpark(with Umineko being the lowest of the 3 in terms of ontology as well and SCP winning in terms of size of the cosmology against Leviathan) so I fail to see what you are referring to here

I know it's frustrating, and I know I'm an idiot :(

But I still don't really get why ignoring he is metafictional is a good idea. Are you just trying to look at this from a cosmology perspective? True, I did say that him transcending the author is meaningless, but I didn't really mean to ignore his power set altogether.

But new "multiversal" characters don't always have to override the previous one. And I wouldn't assume that newer means more powerful.

You wouldn't call breaking the fourth wall a power? Why not?

Doesn't DC have a larger cosmology than Umineko? I'm fairly certain it does... Regardless, what I'm trying to argue is that, first of all, other characters in fiction have the potential to defeat SCP-3812. It might not be a 10/10 win for Featherine (for example), but I believe that it could be a 5/10.

Secondly, the problem is, higher cosmology is impressive, but it isn't the only thing that matters. For example, in Spawn, there is a character introduced called the Man of Miracles (MoM for short). That character is omnipotent, while the Spawn-verse is just a single universe (maybe two after God Spawn created one). The point is, despite SCP-3812 dwarfing MoM's cosmology, MoM would still win the fight (obviously). So there are problems with solely relying on cosmology (thought I do admit it is very important). And while I do agree that SCP-3812 has a ginormous cosmology to back up his impressive powers, there are other characters that have similar powers to that (Leviathan and Dream), are immune to those powers in the first place (I believe it was stated by in the comments that Alovenus is immune - not sure as to the validity), or are just straight up more powerful (omnipotents, for example).

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@bdelloidgrain2: I am only talking about how it stomps DC characters, I'm not saying, that SCP 3812 stomps every other verse as well.

Well, I disagree with that (as composite DC kind of has an omnipotent amongst other things) but it's a start. At least you admit that someone/something can beat him.