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bdelloidgrain2

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@gangorca: Best of luck in College! Come back soon and say hi :)

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: Crimson King isn't from SCP, I think you meant Scarlet King.

But to answer your question, I think that Sefiros and Qlippoth, which aren't SCPs per say, but really only beings within the verse, are both stronger than SCP 3812.

My bad, Scarlet King. Sefiros and Qlippoth? I haven't read those ones. I'll have to look into them. Are they any good?

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: My point was never really about SCP 3812 being unbeatable. He's not even the most powerful being in the SCP verse, imo.

And I'm not a fanboy either, as I think that there are much better SCPs than him. I love metaphysical stuff, and I love the pataphysic stuff from SCP, but 3812 isn't really in my top 10.

Fair enough. Just out of curiosity, which SCP do you think are stronger? 343, Swann's Proposal, Crimson King?

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: The thing is, Omnipotence directly translates to having the highest possible cosmology. A being who is Omnipotent can just insert Any arbitrary sized cosmology below them, but they would still be above it. It's not exactly the case of "cosmology not mattering" more like Omnipotence over a smaller cosmology is the exact same as being Omnipotent over a larger cosmology because you can just increase the size of the cosmology

I don't think cosmology has anything to do with omnipotence. An omnipotent being ruling over a universe and an omnipotent being ruling over infinite multiverses are exactly equal. True an omnipotent being could increase the size of their cosmology, but there is nothing dictating that they MUST increase the size. An omnipotent being kind of disregards cosmology altogether because it's irrelevant.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@enigma22 said:

@bdelloidgrain2 said:

@enigma22 said:

@bdelloidgrain2:

But what I'm trying to say is MoM (who is omnipotent with a smaller cosmology) would beat SCP-3812 (who is not omnipotent with a much larger cosmology) - this being an instance of cosmology not always mattering. I think comparing cosmologies is important, but omnipotence kind of trumps all.

But what makes you think so? Why would an entity that has reign over one Universe beat an entity that hilariously outclasses him by several higher infinities? You know that i can make the exact same argument that SCP-3812 would be Omnipotent over one layer in the narrative stack right? Disregarding his ascendence up the stack for a minute. He canonically went up and over the layer where Ben is. His writer. That makes him omnipotent over not only Ben's reality but the entire Alpha Reality which consists of infinite multiverses/megaverses whatever you wanna name it. So now we have someone who's omnipotent over an infinitely large structure vs a guy who controls one universe. This is exactly why i don't like using omnipotence as as a trump card.

Because omnipotence says so. Omnipotence is kind of the same as whipping out an action replay on your DS and playing Pokémon with 6 shiny legendaries. You're not really supposed to lose with it, and it's not really meant to be compared to other characters (the last thing authors have in mind is what people like us think about it on Comicvine). It's used as a way of illustrating an entities supremacy - their ability to have infinite power over anything.

It's fair that you don't like using omnipotence. A lot of users on here don't - people like lmaolmaolmao and divinemaster thought omnipotence was paradoxical and thus contradicted itself (making it invalid). But I disagree, and think that it has merit. I think authors have ideas of who has how much power, and it should be respected.

I see. We then have to probably agree to disagree. Just to summarize my thoughts for you. If there is a character who is Multiversal in power. This could literally be anyone, doesn't have to be from SCP or DC or whatever. If there is a character who is Multiversal in power you can say with a 100% confidence that the character IS omnipotent over at least one universe. And that is why i prefer debating the size of the cosmology instead.

That's fair. Omnipotence is mainly supposed to be used for religious deities (such as the Christian God) and is not supposed to fight (it doesn't even fight, unless of course he chooses to do so). They are banned from Comicvine anyways, so it doesn't matter.

We can agree to disagree :)

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bdelloidgrain2

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@enigma22 said:

@bdelloidgrain2:

But what I'm trying to say is MoM (who is omnipotent with a smaller cosmology) would beat SCP-3812 (who is not omnipotent with a much larger cosmology) - this being an instance of cosmology not always mattering. I think comparing cosmologies is important, but omnipotence kind of trumps all.

But what makes you think so? Why would an entity that has reign over one Universe beat an entity that hilariously outclasses him by several higher infinities? You know that i can make the exact same argument that SCP-3812 would be Omnipotent over one layer in the narrative stack right? Disregarding his ascendence up the stack for a minute. He canonically went up and over the layer where Ben is. His writer. That makes him omnipotent over not only Ben's reality but the entire Alpha Reality which consists of infinite multiverses/megaverses whatever you wanna name it. So now we have someone who's omnipotent over an infinitely large structure vs a guy who controls one universe. This is exactly why i don't like using omnipotence as as a trump card.

Because omnipotence says so. Omnipotence is kind of the same as whipping out an action replay on your DS and playing Pokémon with 6 shiny legendaries. You're not really supposed to lose with it, and it's not really meant to be compared to other characters (the last thing authors have in mind is what people like us think about it on Comicvine). It's used as a way of illustrating an entities supremacy - their ability to have infinite power over anything.

It's fair that you don't like using omnipotence. A lot of users on here don't - people like lmaolmaolmao and divinemaster thought omnipotence was paradoxical and thus contradicted itself (making it invalid). But I disagree, and think that it has merit. I think authors have ideas of who has how much power, and it should be respected.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@lmaolmaolmao By the way, ignore the Thopples and Etriel claims. I've learned that they are wank. That's my bad, man.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@enigma22 said:

@bdelloidgrain2:

Anyways, you're time travel point is actually quite good. Sam Howell died and then became SCP-3812, so if you went back in time to kill him, he would just logically turn into SCP-3812. I concede that point to you, it was well said.

Nice. Yeah at a certain point it just becomes really difficult to argue for retroactively stopping him unless you have set really specific conditions.

First of all, other characters in fiction have the potential to defeat SCP-3812.

Absolutely. Even in the SCP verse there are stronger entities such as Sefiros, Qlippoth, St Alagadda and THE WORM.

Secondly, the problem is, higher cosmology is impressive, but it isn't the only thing that matters. For example, in Spawn, there is a character introduced called the Man of Miracles (MoM for short). That character is omnipotent, while the Spawn-verse is just a single universe (maybe two after God Spawn created one). The point is, despite SCP-3812 dwarfing MoM's cosmology, MoM would still win the fight (obviously). So there are problems with solely relying on cosmology (thought I do admit it is very important).

This is where i sorta have to disagree with you. Not because i think you're wrong because there is obviously a very strong argument to be made about omnipotence being the end all be all power. I mean it's omnipotence after all. You can't beat that. I just think it's kinda unfair to use that status in battleboarding because Godheads differ so much from verse to verse. And if you want to create these fun fictional match-ups you have to be able to compare them somehow. Especially if we are using these gigantic verses with higher infinities. Cosmology in that case becomes very important. It just doesn't sit right with me to say that someone like a Eru Ilúvatar who is the supreme deity ruling over one universe is exactly the same powerwise as Gan who sits on top of infinite upon infinite nested multiverses expanding continuously containing infinite dimensions.

I mean you can technically say that because they are both omnipotent that they are exactly the same and it's well in your right to do so, but i don't know man. For me that requires a hefty suspension of belief. Especially if a character is said to be omnipotent over one universe but then you read that he has even the smallest or slightest of anti-feat(s). Then that belief is gone out of the window.

So while I do agree that cosmology is very important. And while I do agree that SCP-3812 has a ginormous cosmology to back up his impressive powers, there are other characters that have similar powers to that (Leviathan and Dream), are immune to those powers in the first place

Hmmm i don't know. The Leviathan sorta maybe but i haven't seen Dream actually perform plot or narrative based powers before. I know about his library but that certainly isn't the same as the narrative stack in SCP.

Omnipotence is the be all end all of power (nothing can be greater than omnipotence). But what I'm trying to say is MoM (who is omnipotent with a smaller cosmology) would beat SCP-3812 (who is not omnipotent with a much larger cosmology) - this being an instance of cosmology not always mattering. I think comparing cosmologies is important, but omnipotence kind of trumps all.

Dream's transcend narratives - but not infinite like the Leviathan or SCP-3812 (Dream has transcended a finite amount of narratives). But ignore Dream for the meantime then, he's not really important for the purposes of this thread. The point is, there are characters that have comparable narrative transcending abilities.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@steve40l said:

@bdelloidgrain2@mbcb2001

Pretty sure they fought in battle for the cowl. But of course Nightwing won since Jason needs to lose simply so Nightwing is Batman rather the Red Hood. I'd like to see a rematch though. So the fight is actually, fair. Though not until Red Hood gets his old costume back. Right now Nightwing takes it due to Red Hood's massive loss in gear.

A rematch is always good. Definitely agree with that :)

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bdelloidgrain2

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@mbcb2001 said:

@bdelloidgrain2: I know, they should definitely make a Nightwing vs Red Hood Comic Book at some point. I'm surprised their ideologies haven't clashed since Red Hood is down for the killing

Have they not made a Dick vs Jason comic yet? You're definitely right then, that would be really awesome!