BatWatch

I'm taking a break from ComicVine forums for at least a week. I keep wanting to get on Off-Topic forums and discuss interesting to...

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#1  Edited By BatWatch

@poeticwarrior said:
@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I said, "Isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suite to leadership in U.S. companies?"

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture, I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilty comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs by trying to balance the scales for every past wrong.

People should be treated equally under the law and should be free to succeed as much as possible.

In term of performance, Asian culture is mostly applied to Asians who came from oversea. Study shows that there is no significant in performance between Asian Americans and White Americans, even if Asian Americans score slightly higher.

I don't see how those injustice has anything to do with Japanese Americans. It's the Japanese who did it, but America was treating their own citizens as foreigners like they have a hive mind or something. Native Americans thought they share the lands, we push them out of the land, remember the Trail of Tears? We appropriate them to bad areas constantly. The reservations are mostly poor, there are a lot of crimes and not a lot of job prospect. Hispanic and Spanish are different groups of people with different cultures, I'm not sure what one has to do with the others. We're talking about the mistreatment that created the inequality, not holding anyone responsible. We're just creating an equal playing field here. All of your examples don't make any sense, so your point is not being strengthen at all.

Okay, I'll make the point more simply. It's insane to try to balance out the scales of past injustices. If you want to try to make up for the past wrongs, you end up doing the kind of nonsense I mentioned in my previous post. We can all find ways we are wronged by other groups and demand compensation, but it lead to insanity. We must judge every one as individuals and hold them to account for their own personal actions.

You say that you aren't trying to hold anybody responsible, yet earlier, you said, "Justice is more about making up for past mistakes." Don't mistakes necessitate a mistake maker? Isn't the mistake maker generally the one held responsible for making up for mistakes? It seems to me that saying you want the U.S. to make up for past mistakes means you must want to hold someone accountable, but assuming you truly have no interest in holding someone responsible then stop talking about the previous wrongs as if they are somehow relevant to the conversation. I will if you will.

Leaving apart any type of responsibility for past wrongs, then what you are advocating is just regular old socialism. It doesn't matter if someone is a poor black or a poor white, you just think the economic scales must be balanced. That's a bit off topic from where we started, but to make my case quickly, socialism is bad because it limits people's freedom, it fails to create wealth and it gives the government tons of power which they inevitably abuse. That why I prefer capitalism which is nothing more than economic freedom.

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@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

Yeah, I know you are keeping to the mainstream university professor view. I'm college educated as well. The thing is, most college professors are socialists whereas I realize that socialist countries suck and almost all the progress that has ever happened in the world has come from people who are allowed to spend their money as they choose.

I don't know how you justify it in your mind, but regardless of whether or not you have thought it through, every single policy that discriminates positively on the basis of race by necessity discriminates negatively against someone of other races. Stealing one person's property to give it to another person you feel needs a hand up is steal an injustice. If you want to help those who are struggling, great. You are free to do that with your own money. Do that.

Property? You can't be robbed of something you don't own. It's belonged to the government, you can be jailed for lying about your taxes because you're stealing from the government. They can appropriate the money that they own to fix the inequality in the country any way they can.

Taxes are a necessary evil, so yes, we give the government permission to take our private property and spend it on certain things. I'm saying that the government should spend those things on programs that do not line any particular person's pockets. When the bankers got a bailout, I object to it. When the poor of whatever race get handouts, I object to it. When the rich get loopholes, I object to it. When parents get child tax credits, I object to it. Treat everybody equally. No special favors to anybody.

Again, any policy that discriminates for one group by necessity discriminates against another group, so whether it's taking property, jobs, or something else away from someone, it is a kind of theft.

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#3  Edited By BatWatch

@silent_bomber said:
@batwatch said:

Money doesn't fix the problems. Washington D.C. spends more on education and youth programs than almost any other area of the country, and they have some of the worst results.

What kind of programs are we talking about though? are they well thought out, targeted and efficiently executed?

Are they giving people the opportunity to raise themselves up or just giving temporary hand outs and leg-ups that go nowhere?

Obviously, I don't know every program in effect across the entire country, but here's the thing. Individuals can always allocate their own funds more efficiently than government. Do you think Washington politicians are generally trustworthy? Then why would you want them to try to spend your money on your behalf.

Allow people to have more of their own money and they will pull themselves out of poverty.

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#4  Edited By BatWatch

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I asked isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suited to leadership in U.S. companies?

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture), I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilt comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs in the past by wronging new people today.

People should be treated equally under the law. I don't see why that is a radical concept.

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@poeticwarrior:

Yeah, I know you are keeping to the mainstream university professor view. I'm college educated as well. The thing is, most college professors are socialists whereas I realize that socialist countries suck and almost all the progress that has ever happened in the world has come from people who are allowed to spend their money as they choose.

I don't know how you justify it in your mind, but regardless of whether or not you have thought it through, every single policy that discriminates positively on the basis of race by necessity discriminates negatively against someone of other races. Stealing one person's property to give it to another person you feel needs a hand up is steal an injustice. If you want to help those who are struggling, great. You are free to do that with your own money. Do that.

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#6  Edited By BatWatch

@silent_bomber said:
@batwatch said:

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems.

What about investment into public services in poorer areas?

Though I've heard Americans say that these areas need more policing, and I'd imagine that would be unpopular based on track record.

Money doesn't fix the problems. Washington D.C. spends more on education and youth programs than almost any other area of the country, and they have some of the worst education and crime.

I'd personally like more self-policing rather than more police officers. We disarm the black neighborhoods and then scratch our heads when all the good people in the black neighborhoods are terrorized by the gangs who ignore the gun laws. When something bad goes down, it's usually too late for police to do anything but clean up. People have to be able to defend themselves, but sadly, that's a right denies most black people because of the policies the Democrats have pushed.

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@batwatch said:

Two years ago, I would say there is no significant racial bias towards whites in the United States, but since that time, I've given it a lot of thought and kept my mind open to what people say, and yes, there is absolutely white privilege in the United States as compared to blacks. Many people I know are more suspicious of black people, and obviously, that makes it a harder for black people.

That being said, there are a lot of other aspects to consider.

There is black privilege too. In my experience, black people can claim racism at the drop of a hat and they usually have much more latitude in discussing racial matters. There are lots of double standards about what can be said that work against white people.

There's also a chicken and the egg question here. We know blacks do worse than whites in nearly every measurable way, but are they doing poorly because of bias against them or is there bias against them because they do poorly?

Also, white privilege isn't necessarily due to pro-white racism. After all, Asians do better in nearly every measurable way than whites in the U.S., so having an advantage is much more than being a whitey..

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems. Any attempts to balance the racial scales by treating one race better than the other will only create more injustice.

Asians do much better than whites, but they often work at a lower position than whites. You can look up survey and study, it's a bamboo ceiling. More injustice for who? It could just be adjusting the unequal treatment that is already existing. Sometimes SJW can take it way too far, but some consideration is in order to balance out the unequal that is already existing in society.

So Asians get paid more than whites while being burdened with less responsibility? That's living the dream, man!

In all seriousness, we know there are different cultural tendencies among different cultural groups. Isn't it plausible that Asian cultures might have tendencies less suited to leadership in American culture?

As far as who would be unjustly persecuted by government attempts to balance the scales, that depends on the specific policy, but to use the previously mentioned question of hiring discrimination, it absolutely is unjust to treat a white person poorly in order to make up for the past injustice to a black person. It would be like if I saw a Japanese girl and stole her purse and screamed, "That's for Pearl Harbor!"

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@heroup2112 said:

@tobi-wan: What I basically said, to begin with, was that yes white privilege exists. However, I agreed with the other person, because he pointed out that other kinds of privileges exist too.

Good example. I applied for a job as a fire fighter (I'm not going to say where, I don't want any negative reactions toward me from them or toward them from anyone).

I got the top grade on the entrance exam, the physical agility test, and basic applied mechanical theory test. Do you know why I wasn't hired? Because if you were a minority you got an extra 5 hiring points, if you were a woman you got an extra 5 hiring points. So, a black woman beat me out by two points. Was I upset about it, no. This was back in the early 1990's when hiring practices were just starting to turn around for minorities, and I understood the situation.

However, don't try to sit there and tell me black, or female privilege doesn't exist.

You're talking about justice vs fairness. Justice is more about making up for past mistakes, so that everyone can be on equal grounds in the future while fairness is about treating everyone fairness regardless of their background and how they get their. What if the Black woman who was hired come from a bad neighborhood? What if she has to do more to get where she is while someone who is at the same position may have an easier time growing up based on their background. If we don't correct the past injustice, it would just basically perpetuate the social ladder in society where the rich where a lot of whites have an edge will get richer while the poor which often affected many minority due to the background they were born in will keep staying at that level.

Your view of justice is wrong. You are saying we should perpetuate a new type of injustice to make up for past injustices. If we lived this way, every single person would be taking a pound of flesh from every other person, and we could make up endless excuses for how every group of people should be getting special benefits over every other group of people.

Justice can only be found when individuals are judged for their own actions. You suggest we condemn one person for the actions of another, and that's the exact opposite of justice.

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Two years ago, I would say there is no significant racial bias towards whites in the United States, but since that time, I've given it a lot of thought and kept my mind open to what people say, and yes, there is absolutely white privilege in the United States as compared to blacks. Many people I know are more suspicious of black people, and obviously, that makes it a harder for black people.

That being said, there are a lot of other aspects to consider.

There is black privilege too. In my experience, black people can claim racism at the drop of a hat and they usually have much more latitude in discussing racial matters. There are lots of double standards about what can be said that work against white people.

There's also a chicken and the egg question here. We know blacks do worse than whites in nearly every measurable way, but are they doing poorly because of bias against them or is there bias against them because they do poorly?

Also, white privilege isn't necessarily due to pro-white racism. After all, Asians do better in nearly every measurable way than whites in the U.S., so having an advantage is much more than being a whitey..

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems. Any attempts to balance the racial scales by treating one race better than the other will only create more injustice.

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#10  Edited By BatWatch

Cultural appropriation is when white people use anything non-whites created without acknowledging the rich cultural history surrounding it.

When non-white people use anything whites created without acknowledging the rich cultural history surrounding it, it's somehow not an issue.

It's just another BS political correct gotcha game being used by leftists who find it easier to shout "Racist!" at anybody who disagrees with them rather than make a reasoned argument for their political beliefs. It only has power as long as we pretend it has power.