bag_o_x_men

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@comic_book_fan said:

@ghostravage:

it's not speculation he has done these things.

Where? In "Age of Apocalypse" which is not canon? With Prometheus which its totally understandable because of what he explained? Show me a canon scan of Magneto controlling atoms of people bodies.

616 Canon. Mags can manipulate much more than metal. He can directly manipulate magnetic fields including those that hold atoms together.

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#2  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@Bucketz said:
  Even though Sabretooth did it easy, Wolverine isn't Sabrertooth and Logan will not get every slash on BP because he may not always slice against the grain. In other words, BP has a higher chance to actually hurt Wolverine than Wolverine can to BP. 



   


   
This makes no sense.  BP was superior in h2h to Sabes, yet Sabes had no trouble tagging him.  Wolverine is better than both of them by a fair margine.  He won't do quite as much damage with each slash, because he isn't as strong as Sabretooth.  He should hit even more often though, thanks to his superior skill. 

What says that Gambit's cards would exceed the limits of Panther's suit? He's walked through explosions that brought his entire mansion down around him and come out unharmed. He's taken direct blasts and punches from Iron Man and been ok. Why would Gambit's cards be too strong? And that's if they even hit. The cards are being thrown by Gambit who, while fast, is not superhumanly so. Black Panther can dodge them, and even if the explosion is still close enough for him to feel it, it will be even weaker than a direct hit, which I doubt has the force to overcome the vibranium anyway. And if Gambit can hit Black Panther with a card, why can't Black Panther hit him with an energy dagger? An energy dagger which can stun him at least, or kill him at most.
   


   

What says Gambit's explosions exceed the suit, are the scans we've provided.  His of lesser explosions damaging the weave, and mine of Gambit's explosive power and charge speed.  I can give you a bunch more if you want.  Gambit hits BP more often not because of speed or agility.  They're pretty close to equal.  He hits more because of superior range and accuracy.  Gambit can hit a target less than half a millimeter in size from over fifty feet.  BP can't match that.  Gambit regularly lands precision hits from over a hundred feet.  BP's are usually point blank.  I don't see him getting the opportunity to get that close.  And Gambit isn't limited to cards.  He can charge everything here. And if he wants some extra time, he can cause a cave in from the ceiling with his staff to cut off Panther, and buy time to set traps, time delays, etc...  Gambit is an excellent tactician and has the home field advantage here.  There are many, many ways Gambit wins.  You only have one way for T'challa, and you haven't convinced me he can pull off that with any consistency.
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#3  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@Mr Creesy:
Herc can do that to, and he has more feats and higher end feats.  Herc is supposed to have unlimited strength.  BM doesn't.  I still think BM should win though.
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#5  Edited By bag_o_x_men

Herc's probably stronger, slightly, but BM 's flight should give him a slight advantage.  BM for the win.

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#6  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@Bucketz said:

Handbooks are not a credible source because they contradict each other. I said, BP wins in a good match if Cyclops isn't bloodlusted. Though I am certain BP can beat Wolverine and Gambit more times than they can for reasons stated.

True, in some case, but they are the only way to get official stats directly from Marvel.

@bag_o_x_men:   If he's close enough to charge any vibranium on Black Panther, he's close enough to get ripped apart by his claws. And of the two, the ripping will happen much faster than the charging. Both have dangerous range weapons, but Black Panther's suit protects him from much of the force of the explosions while Gambit has no defense against his energy daggers. Not saying he can't dodge, but Panther can dodge too, and he's also more likely to use his daggers and the environment to force Gambit into a position where he can no longer avoid them. I wouldn't give either a major advantage over the other in agility since they're both peak human in that area. Black Panther however, is peak human in every other area as well, not to mention that he's a skilled martial artist with training from all over the world and he's a much smarter, always thinking many steps ahead. His senses also allow him to react to attacks faster than Gambit can, giving him another edge. It's not a one sided battle or anything, but more often than not, Black Panther wins.


I think you're focusing too much on Gambit charging the suit.  I said that would be a last option after all others were exhausted.  Gambit has too many attack options, better accuracy, and slightly better range, plus the advantage of his time delay charges.    I would agree that physically they're about equal, while BP has the senses, intelligence, and h2h advantage.  But it isn't enough to make up for Gambit's advantages.  BP could pull a win against him, absolutely.  But Gambit will win majority IMO.  Respect for sticking to your guns though brother.

@weaponmaster said:

@bag_o_x_men said:

BP can beat Beast, Wolverine, and Colossus.  The rest would stomp him.  Since this is a gauntlet, he stops at number 1.  And yes, 616 Kurt has teleported with a single body part.  He just doesn't do it because of his morals.  He did it to Warlock's father Magus in the early eighties.  He teleported his leg off.  Later in the same issue, Rogue did the same thing to Nimrod after absorbing Kurt's powers.  Kurt is faster, is a serious teleporter, is experienced.  With morals, it'd be a close fight, without Kurt stomps.  And anyone who thinks that BP even has a tiny chance against Cyke or Mags when they have their powers, morals or not, is horrifically misinformed, misguided, or an absolutely delusional fanboy.


Warlocks father and Nimrod are machines. Teleporting their limbs off is analogous to teleporting a doorknob off of a door. There is no evidence to even suggest that Nightcrawler can teleport a living beings individual bodyparts.

 

Kurt being faster is only speculation. BP has much better speed feats. Kurt got hit by wendigo who is not nearly on BPs level as far as speed is concerned. Kurts agility is Olympic level, not superhuman. Black Panther would time Nightcrawlers teleporting  and Ko him or worse.

 

He definitely has a chance against Cyclops. The last time I checked Cyclops had normal durablility and a well placed energy dagger could take Cyke out easily. it all depends on who has the fastest reaction time and BP is superior in this area. Gambit would lose as well. Magneto would win. Most are in agreement on that.

 

If you are going to debate then do so. Insulting people when the same things could be said about your thinking Cyclops can win is hypocrisy at its worst and you are likely the one being biased, for whatever reason.


     Warlock and Magus are technoorganic.  They are sentient, and alive.  Your doorknob analogy is inaccurate.  There is plenty of evidence that Kurt can dismember via teleportation.  NC has teleported items off of people.  He can teleport with exceptional precision.  He's mentioned the ability in other comics, including Kevin Smith's Spiderman run when Spidey was investigating a series of murders by teleport.  And of course in alternate universes, any time he's without his 616 morals he does it.  It's moot anyway, since this battle is with morals.
     Kurt being faster and more agile is fact.  OHOTMU fact.  He's nearly Spidey level speed and agility. The olympic reference is to acrobatic/gymnastic skill, not physical ability.  His strength and durability are also superior to BP. I also think people underestimate his general skill level, either because of his jocular attitude, or his priestly calling, or his admittedly small number of feats.  But he does have the feats, just not as many as some others.  And lets not forget his ability to be functionally invisible in shadow and to see in the dark.
     And everyone always says that Kurt's 'ports are easy to time, yet only a very few people have done it.  DD did it with his Radar sense along with his MA skill.  Cyke did it with spacial geometry added with his own familiarity with Kurt.  Wolverine with enhanced senses and familiarity.  BP is a great martial artist, but he doesn't have the martial arts abilities of DD or Wolverine, he doesn't have the familiarity that Scott or Logan have,  he has enhanced senses, but not nearly as good as Wolvie's senses or DD's radar, and he certainly doesn't have spacial geometry.  There's nothing about BP that suggests to me he could calculate Kurt's ports, beyond possibly his intellect, and noticing that Kurt's more comfortable teleporting certain directions, and that still only gives him an idea of where Kurt may 'port, nothing more.

Takes out an entire crew of pirates, while disoriented, and without teleporting.  He's also dropped entire merc teams so fast, that the last one is ko'ed before the first hits the floor.


Easily tanking shots from Spidey, while keeping up with his agility, and being strong enough to hang with him as well.






Superior skill to Captain Britain, Guardian of the Nexus of Reality.  Also tanking 100 ton class hits.


Strength and accuracy feat.


"Takes a great deal of restraint and maturity to not teleport the guerrilla's head off."

Searches for, collects, then arms six bombs.  Then teleports and attatches them to sentinels.  Total time...9 seconds.  Faster than BP.




BP has no chance against Cyke for all the reasons I've already stated.  The faster reaction advantage goes to BP, slightly  yes, but unless they started right next to one another, BP literally has no chance, because Scott's range and accuracy advantage are far, far greater.  Cyke has attacks BP can't dodge at all.  Is it possible BP could doge one or two normal blasts?   Of course.  But he can't dodge many, and he is less than exceptionally accurate himself, and has much lower range.  And the closer he gets, the easier for Cyke to hit him, and the harder it is to dodge.  If he could get to withing ten feet or so, he could win.  But he'll only do that once every ten times.  And of course, there's no reason Cyke is limited to low level blasts.  He knows BP can take a high power blast, so morals won't hold him back here.  You're seriously going to throw my fanboy card back as hypocrisy for stating that someone who can punch through Onslaught's armor, destroy mountains and small planets, and flay WWH  is going to stomp a barely superhuman character?  Come on.  Cyke would stomp BP, Batman, Captain America, Dare Devil, etc....  If it were h2h, this would obviously be a much different story.  However, Cyke's powers make this a stomp.  He can literally pick the wings off a butterfly at over a hundred yards.  He can hit the head of an accupuncture needle.  He can and has hit half a dozen people who are all exponentially faster than BP, which I've already provided scans for.  And I don't know why you're making me repeat this, when I know for a fact you already know all of this.  In a single battle, under the same conditions, people would be calling spite and you know it.  You'd probably be one of them.  The only people who would argue for BP over Cyke here, haven't read X-Men and don't know what he can do. And if you haven't noticed, all I've been doing for the last three pages is debating, with scans as proof no less.
BP can't dodge someone who can one-shot a dozen soldiers with enough accuracy to just disarm them.

BP can't dodge someone who can ricochet with this kind of accuracy.


Cyke's morals are getting pretty lose with killing people, and not worrying about injuries.  Scott doesn't screw around like he used to, which is just one more reason he won't hold back here.


Destroying Apocalypse.  Yet BP is supposed to dodge or tank his blast?


Another blast BP can neither dodge, nor tank.  This takes out the Wrecking Crew, who not long before had embarrassed the Avengers, and have guys with Thor level durability.


If you were being serious and honest, you know you can't make an argument for BP over Cyke.  Period.
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#7  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@Bucketz said:
Personally, after reading what you wrote you either underestimate BP or haven't read his comments enough to know his abilities. They are starting off right in front of each other, so exploding corridors won't work if it is a straight on battle if they are not going anywhere and fighting in the room, and before Gambit can run away and do that, he is already floored by KO gas or stabbed. BP can keep up with Gambit or probably move faster, blocking the exit. BP is WAY too smart to fall for Gambit's traps...C'mon man, He has superhuman intellect and senses too. The gas is located just at T'Challa's fingertips so it isn't hard to access. He just shoots off a little dosage and make Gambit get knocked out quick and easy. BP isn't a slouch, he will avoid many go the cards thrown at him and say a card hits him, if BP has a break before getting hit again the suit is reset because the Kinetic energy was let out, therefore overtaxing the suit via cards isn't exactly going to be easy.

What do you mean BP can't hit him?? His Energy Daggers also work as melee or projectile weapons. He can fire a swarm of several at Gambit and unlike Gambit's cards, if one of those Energy Daggers touches Gambit his nervous system is shut down. And I'm only talking about just 1. If Gambit gets close, since BP outclasses Gambit in H2H he will defitintley get the first touch with the daggers. Gambit gets close to touch BP and make him go "Boom" but BP already shut down his nervous system or KO'd him from the KO gas that could probably floor Gambit with heavy doses in 10 seconds. Each second that passes by Gambit is getting weaker, slower. I'd love to see Gambit try to heal after his nervous system has just been shut down.


Again, stop acting like its impossible for BP to dodge Cyke's optic blasts. Again, like I have repeated too many times, many street levelers have dodged Cyke's optic blasts, i don't see why BP couldn't do the same. Cyclops isn't bloodlusted so no he isn't going to fire a blast that will completely destroy X-Mansion. Cyclops needs to charge up to use such a powerful blast, in that time T'Challa already closed some of the distance, shot out some KO gas and swarmed Cyke with Energy Daggers. I'll admit if Cyke was bloodlusted he would beat BP via taking off his visor and then just disintegrating BP.

BP does have superhuman senses because of the heart-shaped-herb, he can see things 100ft as if it was in front of him. BP will definetley dodge some of the blasts, his senses are not on par with spider sense, but good enough to avoid the optic blasts, close the distace and defeat Cyclops.
No.  The problem is you severely overestimate BP.  He isn't anywhere near superhuman intellect.  He's a top ten human level intellect, but not superhuman.  And why is being smart any defense against an exploding wall/room/ building.  Don't be silly.  And unless they start right next to each other BP isn't hitting Gambit with gas.  The mansion is very large, and has huge open rooms, that will only become  larger and more open as people like Gambit and Cyclops start blowing up walls.You're just repeating yourself now, yet offering no proof.  I've given you more than a dozen scans to prove that Gambit or Cyke are more than a match for BP.  You have given nothing but overinflated estimations of BP's abilities.  It doesn't matter whether or not street levelers have dodged Cyke.  Much fewer that you seem to think have, and even wher they dodge once, most still end up getting hit by subsequent blasts.  It isn't as though he can only shoot once.  And again, we don't use low end feats.  And again, I've given you scans of Cyke hitting charachters exponentially faster than BP.  And if he doesn't hold back, BP literally can't dodge when the blast is a hundred feet across and half that high.  And where do you get that Cyke has to charge up.  He has to recharge for a few seconds after a full power blast, but at that point BP is done.  And enhanced vision/hearing help not at all against optic blasts.  His senses are nowhere near Wolverine.  And he doesn't have the necessary enhanced senses to help.  And it doesn't matter in avoiding a floor to ceiling, wall to wall full power blast.
And you'll note the handbook entry above also places him significantly lower than Wolverine on a few levels, not the least of which is fighting skills. BP is a 5, Wolverine is a 7.

@Static Shock said:
@Bucketz said:
I already touched upon how the cards wouldn't be enough to overtax the suit 
You didn't touch upon it adequately. You were told that kinetic cards explode, and then shown what happens to the suit after multiple explosions. After that, you didn't try to refute it. You ignored and addressed everything else.

@bag_o_x_men said:
And Scott knows about BP's armor, and knows what it can withstand, so he won't be pussyfooting around.
What makes you so sure about this?


Beast's time with the Avengers left the X-Men with very detailed files on all of the Avengers, including BP.  They mention it in the Dark Phoenix Saga, and again  during Operation Zero Tolerance IIRC.  I'd also be very surprised if the Wakandans and X-Men haven't shared many files, and technological advances with one another since their marital joining.
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#8  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@Bucketz said:


You have failed to show a defense against the Energy Daggers, one touch and gambit is out. Sense this seems to be turning into a "first touch wins" type of battle then i still say BP wins. Energy Daggers are longer than Gambits hand trying to touch BP and to top it off they can be fired as a projectile, BP also mastered all forms of combat and can keep up with Gambit, therefore he has an even bigger possibility of landing a hit before gambit can. I already touched upon how the cards wouldn't be enough to overtax the suit and if gambit uses his staff it would be even easier to KO him because the Energy Daggers would travel through the metal staff and fry Gambit. If you read the OP it clearly states that the battle is inside the X-Men mansion. Therefore it isn't in a "highly ventilated area". So yes the KO gas would have great affect of Gambit before he can even reach T'Challa if used in the right amount of dosages. I believe Gambit has no resistance to toxins or KO gas, so if BP uses just the amount he uses to floor Rhinos and Elephants he would KO Gambit, just imagine in severely high dosages it could probably kill him via suffocation. The Gas is also so accessible because it is located at BP's fingertips.

BP has succesfully dodged storms lightening strikes which go petty damn fast, I can't see why he can't do the same with the optic blasts. Daredevil dodged them, so I can't see why he couldn't be able to also. He could after getting moderatley close after dodging a couple optic blasts, he can use the Energy Dagger as a projectile and fire it at Cyclops, Cyclops isn't really a fast or agile type of guy so chances are it will hit and if it does then well goodbye Cyclops.

Now please, humor me with more.
 
 You don't need defense when your opponent can't get to you, and you can heal damage done to you.  You didn't show anything to make me think that cards can't tax the suit.  Gambit is as accurate as Bullseye or even better, and is more than fast enough to get off an entire deck of explosions.  You saw what just three did earlier, and again, you aren't accounting for environmental charges, like walls, or statues.
Here he kills eight men with eight cards.  All assassins, trained from birth in all forms of combat, and wearing armor.  Now add 44 more cards (at least), plus whatever he picks up, plus what ever he has touched in the area they're fighting in and charged with time delays and I don't see BP coming out alive.  And on the extreme off chance that he does, he'll be hurt, and probably temporarily blinded and deafened, against a fellow martial arts master, who only needs to touch him, and who BP can't really even hurt, as I'll demonstrate in the next scan.





As you can see, Gambit can heal from lethal wounds by directly manipulating the kinetic energy directed against him in the attack.  To be fair, in this instance, it was another entity inhabiting his body, that initiated this ability, but it is Gambit's ability and Gambit's powers.  He has done it twice since.  I'm looking for the comics.  I'll have to dig for them.  They're in storage.  Sorry for the scan size.  I was learning how to use the scanner when I scanned them.

As for Cyke.

BP is not dodging blasts like this...



Nor is he dodging this kind of accuracy.








Being able to ricochet like he does, Cyke can make BP think he missed, hit him with a ricochet to stun/throw BP off balance, then finish him with a high blast.  And Scott knows about BP's armor, and knows what it can withstand, so he won't be pussyfooting around.  He'll open with heavy, unavoidable blasts that will make short work of BP.  T'challa has no chance against Scott.  Storm was holding back, and her lightning is nowhere near as accurate as Scott's blasts.



p.s.

 Sorry, I thought your OP said the mansion grounds.  Inside is even worse.  Gambit can charge entire corridors with time delay charges and  take out T'challa before he even gets started.  BP will never get near Gambit.  He certainly won't get off a gas attack.
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#9  Edited By bag_o_x_men

I agree, straight up battles would likely go to the guys for the most part, however lets not forget,  this is a team battle, not straight match-ups.  I think y'all are seelling the girls short.  I was thinking if they swap opponents, this would be closer.  For example, if Lady Deadpool takes on Spidey, Lady Bullseye takes on Hawkeye, and Spider Woman takes on Wolverine, etc...  They can also try for stealth, or double teams. Lady Bullseye and X-23 could be seriously dangerous in this indoor, close quarters, easy to hide in environment.  Especially since Logan is functionally blind to X-23.  She's genetically engineered to be invisible to his scent ability, which he relies on a great deal.    Drew's pheromones alone would wreak havok among the guys.  The Spider Ladies both have abilities the Spider Boys don't.  I think this could be close.  The real challenge IMO is Wolverine and Hawkeye's tactical analysis, vs Jess and Lady Bullseye's tactics. 

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#10  Edited By bag_o_x_men
@MarvelJackAss433: @sa5m:
All of them?