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Azura_Thena

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#1  Edited By Azura_Thena

@azura_thena: I would've preferred him punch a hole in Zods chest in a fit of blind rage or desperation.

It's way more in character for him to hurt himself rather than just kill Zod, and considering that up until that point no kryptonian had shown the slightest sign of injury, there's no reason to believe that would've really hurt superman that much. Supes can also just heal out of that, and once again, it actually makes the situation dire.

Superman could easily have leaned backwards or stepped back and put Zod in any number of other chokes that would've had Zod facing towards the Ceiling, rather than the walls. Superman should also have been able to just turn a different way or pile drive Zod into the ground.

Also, what new family? Everyone there got the heck out of dodge the moment they could. If there was another family, they would've gotten fried anyways since Superman just ripped Zods head sideways.

Zod being blinded by rage and trying not to win is rather silly but makes sense I suppose. He could be suicidal, but that didn't even force Superman to kill him since he has plenty of other ways.

The difference is that they actually touched on Bats not wanting to kill, and even the death seemed accidental and out of desperation. This seemed more like an execution than an accident. I don't even really know why he cared other than, "I don't want superman to kill."

Sure it is. But it was not a viable option here because it would have crippled him to someone that is supposedly vastly superior to him in combat prowess. Superman had shown several times to be injured. The sun just pepped him back up in a flash (accelerated healing is one of the benefits of Kryptonian physiology under a yellow sun). But yes, in the long run, neither one was really damaged. Why then would Superman want to give Zod the advantage? The situation was already dire enough. Superman was literally fighting for ever one of the 7 billion lives on this planet. It doesn't get anymore dire.

And Zod could have just as easily leaned forward. As for the chokes, he was already in one. Why would switching to a different choke hole be more beneficial when Zod can still turn his head and eyes? And how does that benefit Superman in the long run? To answer that for you, it doesn't. Turning a different way leads to the same scenario: What next? Zod would just find another family. I don't understand how that is so hard for you to grasp.

You mean that Zod's heat vision was only limited to the train station? There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary on that one.

So you are now saying that the only way another family could have been there was if they existed in so much space that they would have surely died due to where Superman twisted Zod's head? I knew obesity was a problem in the states but I had no idea it was such a problem that people take up whole train stations!

I never said Zod wasn't trying to win. I said he determined that one of them die and dying himself didn't seem like such a problem for him to the point that some could argue that he wanted to die. Suicide by cop is never considered a "loss" by the criminal, why would you think it is different here? He wanted to kill Superman and every human on the planet or die trying. There was no winning or losing for him.

You say there are plenty of other ways but you have yet to provide a workable solution.

They touched on Superman not wanting to kill as well. He avoided it his whole life despite his apparent plethora of opportunities. Batman accidentally pushed Dent off a building? Arguably one of the smartest men on the planet with some of the very best combat training in the world accidentally pushed Dent off a 3 story building? When he had plenty of time to plan his attack? I don't buy that for one minute.

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Azura_Thena

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@edge007 said:

@azura_thena said:

@edge007 said:

@k4tzm4n: Your right, this is a movie where there are countless plot devices at his disposal. The writer just has to be smart enough and know the character well enough to write it that way. It could've just as easily been written that there was another way other than what was depicted. It was simply written that way because of the writer's agenda to make him more like "us" and give the audience that "!$^& YEAH!," moment when they hear a neck snap, which (again) flies in the face of everything the character is supposed to be.

No. The point was that there were NO plot devices at Superman's disposal. There was no alternative other than convincing Zod to give up or to kill him. Zod was determined to fight until one of them dies and a strong argument can be made that Zod was counting on Superman to kill him.

If this Supes is so compliant with the needs of the villain, maybe he should just let Lex win in a sequel.

If Lex wants Superman to kill him and leaves Superman with absolutely no alternative, perhaps you will get your wish.

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@azura_thena: Okay, First off, he was able to snap Zods neck, so there is no way he couldn't have prevented Zod from turning his head. He could've put his bicep in the way and it would've saved that family. He could've literally take a single step backwards and zod would've missed. He could've started flying. he could've leaned backwards. Why did Zod even bother when he could've just flown backwards into a wall to shake off Superman? Why didn't superman block it with his arm? If you thin about it for even a second, you can find so many other outs that just, "Well, guess I gotta murder this dude!" Superman is supposed to be a genius, and he lacks the common sense to just stop something like that?

Like I said, it's the difference between the Batman just straight up shooting the Joker and Dent, and how the dark knight actually ended. The specific way he killed Zod and the situation didn't make sense. I've already stated that there are obvious others ways to do the same sort of ending that they could've just straight ripped from other shows, and it would've been fine.

Turning Zod's head is exactly what Superman did do. ;)

Okay so he critically damages his arm to save the family for a second, then what? You have just completely ruined Superman's chances of defeating a Zod determined to kill not just every human on the planet, but Superman as well. Hard to fight with only one working arm...

Takes a step back, Zod picks a new family to kill.

Superman tries flying? Well Zod knew how to fly by that point as well. Superman flies up, Zod flies down, creating a stalemate and Zod incinerates the family.

Zod was blinded by rage and was determined to kill humans just to hurt Superman. He was able to accomplish that just fine without shaking Superman off. In fact, Superman was forced to watch or kill Zod, which was Zod's intentions as evident when he tells Superman that only one of them is going to survive that day.

This Superman might be a genius but we don't know for sure on that now do we?

This is actually the same exact situation with Dent. He was forced to kill Dent to save people. Superman was forced to kill to save humans. The only difference is that Batman had actual alternatives, such as capture, while Superman did not.

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@edge007 said:

@k4tzm4n: Your right, this is a movie where there are countless plot devices at his disposal. The writer just has to be smart enough and know the character well enough to write it that way. It could've just as easily been written that there was another way other than what was depicted. It was simply written that way because of the writer's agenda to make him more like "us" and give the audience that "!$^& YEAH!," moment when they hear a neck snap, which (again) flies in the face of everything the character is supposed to be.

No. The point was that there were NO plot devices at Superman's disposal. There was no alternative other than convincing Zod to give up or to kill him. Zod was determined to fight until one of them dies and a strong argument can be made that Zod was counting on Superman to kill him.

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@muyjingo said:

@k4tzm4n: No need to put tired in quotes...

They made a point in the movie to show the Kryptonian atmosphere made Superman as weak as a human.As long as Clark could incapacitate Zod (which I don't think is implausible) then he could work with humans to replicate the Kryptonian atmosphere and imprison Zod.

Maye you will say that that would take too long. Which is fair, although that's where hologram Jor El could come in. It could have been written in a believable way.

Or, a second alternative would perhaps be flying him or sending him to a planet under the influence of a different sun, so he would lose his powers. Stranding him on a planet under such a sun ala Khan.

Again, there are/were options. If anyone asserts they are not, they lack imagination.

No they didn't. The shock of the Kryptonian atmosphere (which he had never experienced outside of the first few days of his life) knocked him out but he was literally fine right after. They used some kind of Kryptonian tech to neutralize his powers. This tech is never elaborated upon but once Jor-El takes control of the ship, Superman is just fine even with Kryptonian air and bursts out of his restraints. Earth atmosphere provides more nourishment while Kryptonian air is vapid. Your understanding of the movie details needs adjusting.

Jor-El hologram? You mean the one that Zod killed?

Flying Zod to this planet that will sap powers and Superman somehow doesn't lose his powers himself?

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@azura_thena: Like I said, I would've preferred an actual moment of desperation kill, or placing Zod in stasis of some kind with his ship that was literally designed to put kryptonians in stasis. I also totally would say the killing is more powerful and more attractive to your average movie goer, which is why I'm actually okay with it to some degree (though the little kid superman fan in me wants to punch Goyer).

Actual moment of desperation? Saving innocent lives (and to a larger extent, the world) is not desperate enough for you?

The ship was destroyed.

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#9  Edited By Azura_Thena

@durakken said:

@azura_thena: Save for the fact Jor-El explicitly states what he is doing which has nothing to do with a magic device and Zod or the science dude specifically says that the atmosphere is what is causing his weakness. The reason the other Kryptonians supposedly didn't gain powers is due to them being in biosuits, but they weren't on the ship. It's inconsistent with what the story tells you and what they are showing you.

The fact you see this inconsistency and ignore it shows that why you are defending it isn't because it is good, but for some other reason that makes you biased to begin with.

Superman passed out because of the shock of the atmosphere, he was not depowered by it. The science guy actually says they have removed the benefits of the star. How do you presume they did this? With Krypton air? I am aware of the biosuits. Funny, those same biosuits allowed the Kryptonians to fight Superman as an equal, despite their approximate human stats without the benefits that Superman had. The movie isn't inconsistent, your logic is though.

Furthermore, Superman still had powers when he was in a terraformed section of Earth that matched Krypton gravity and atmosphere. I wonder then, how he managed to be 'super' and fly through the Krypton world engine. It is pretty easy to say that it was inconsistent when you didn't actually watch the film. I recommend you see it again. You clearly missed much.

I have showed you that I not only like the movie but consider it a very very good film. Not only that but I have countered every one of your incredibly flawed arguments in a concise and logical manner. If I am stupid yet still possess the ability to defeat your argument, what does that make you?

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@sandman_ said:

@azura_thena: You gotta wonder though....If this really is a shared universe...Where are the GL corps?

As far as I know, DC initially said the GL movie was going to be part of the expanded DC movie universe but that was before Nolan took over creative control. So, the Corps might not have selected a Lantern from Earth yet.